The death of the Euro

[Surman4no7shirt]

When I was in Spain recently staying with friends in their exclusive front line golf villa it was a nightmare driving around the area (gualdalmina alto) due to a new road being half built and now stopped as the money has run out. It reminded me of some banana republic. Then you look at all the boarded up shops and half built developments and places for sale and you are realise that for all the complaining, we are a lot better off here.

 

 

Really depends where you are. Of the 5 or 6 capitals in Europe I've visited I prefer all to London (Berlin excluded). You are right in that Hampshire is one of the best places to live in the world, even if I grew up there and am biased.

 

On the other hand, a lot of places in the South Med are like that culturally (taking years to build a seemingly simple road etc), and I don't think the currency will change that. Even if they had a stable currency their private contractors on public works are always going bust or just taking years to finish a project which should take weeks.

 

My point was merely that if I compare the receipts of food shopping from say 6 months ago and today, deleting the items which do not appear on both, I would notice and increase of around 50% - which is not reflected by the false exchange rates propagated by our Kraut friends.

[pedg]

One thing the euro is obviously good for is being a scape goat for Cameron and Osbourne to try and explain why growth in the UK has slowed to a crawl.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/11/eurozone-crisis-impact-uk

 

George Osborne, the chancellor, described events on the continent as "dangerous", adding: "There's no doubt that growth in Britain, jobs in Britain, have been hit by what's going on in the eurozone."

[LGTL]

One thing the euro is obviously good for is being a scape goat for Cameron and Osbourne to try and explain why growth in the UK has slowed to a crawl.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/11/eurozone-crisis-impact-uk

 

But hang on, I thought it was because Labour "maxed out the nations credit card"???

 

They need to make their minds up.

[dune]

But hang on, I thought it was because Labour "maxed out the nations credit card"???

 

They need to make their minds up.

 

All I can say is that f/ck we got the Tories in to start immediate cuts. Gilts at 2.25% is the clearest approval you'll get for how the Tories are managing the recovery.

 

Forget all the politics, and listen to what the markets are saying.

[badgerx16]

and listen to what the markets are saying.

"Money, money, money"

"More, more, more"

 

"OK, we've shafted Greece, Ireland, & Italy, who's next ?"

 

[Saintandy666]

All I can say is that f/ck we got the Tories in to start immediate cuts. Gilts at 2.25% is the clearest approval you'll get for how the Tories are managing the recovery.

 

Forget all the politics, and listen to what the markets are saying.

 

And what were the markets saying for the last 10 years then... when the foundations for the cataclysmic worldwide crash were being laid. What were they saying then?

[CB Saint]

All I can say is that f/ck we got the Tories in to start immediate cuts. Gilts at 2.25% is the clearest approval you'll get for how the Tories are managing the recovery.

 

Forget all the politics, and listen to what the markets are saying.

 

"Grab as much as you can boys, this is a once in a lifetime closing down sale. When its gone, its gone"

[pedg]

But hang on, I thought it was because Labour "maxed out the nations credit card"???

 

They need to make their minds up.

 

You forgot that between then and now they also added 'Snow' and 'The Royal Wedding' to the list of things that have causes the economy to slow dramatically.

[bridge too far]

And what were the markets saying for the last 10 years then... when the foundations for the cataclysmic worldwide crash were being laid. What were they saying then?

 

They were saying 'let's all bet on the global economy going bust' - and they're cashing in.

Edited 12 November, 2011 by bridge too far

[trousers]

And what were the markets saying for the last 10 years then... when the foundations for the cataclysmic worldwide crash were being laid. What were they saying then?

 

Best ask Gordon Brown that one. He was paying very close attention to what the markets and banks were doing on his watch....obviously... ;-)

[dune]

"Grab as much as you can boys, this is a once in a lifetime closing down sale. When its gone, its gone"

 

you got it in one.

[pedg]

Best ask Gordon Brown that one. He was paying very close attention to what the markets and banks were doing on his watch....obviously... ;-)

 

Strangely I can't remember the tories asking for increased regulation of the markets and banks at the time....

[Lord Duckhunter]

One thing the euro is obviously good for is being a scape goat for Cameron and Osbourne to try and explain why growth in the UK has slowed to a crawl.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/11/eurozone-crisis-impact-uk

 

Quite clearly the Euro loonys and the Labour Party are the ones that need to get their story stright here.

 

We are reaptedly told that to leave the EU would be madness, because of all the Trade we do with Europe. Therefore it stands to reason that if Europe is in decline and facing tough austerity measures, with no growth, then that will clearly impact on British growth and jobs.

 

Or are they trying to say that we cant leave the EU because of all the Trade we do with them, but our growth is not linked to all that trade?

[bridge too far]

Generally, but not universally, GDP in Europe outstrips GDP in the UK. See here:

 

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tsieb020

 

So we should be benefiting from those growth areas.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The Commission, the European Union's executive arm, said on Thursday that stagnation in the euro zone was a high probability. It forecast just 0.5 percent growth in 2012 but said it could not exclude a deep and protracted recession.

 

Surely in light of the amount of trade we do with the EU (according to the pro EU's), then quite clearly we are reaching a point of "real danger to our economy", exactly what Cameron and GO are saying.

 

It seems that Labour recession's are caused by global issues, but these global issues never have any effect on Tory recessions.....Strange that.

[View From The Top]

The Commission, the European Union's executive arm, said on Thursday that stagnation in the euro zone was a high probability. It forecast just 0.5 percent growth in 2012 but said it could not exclude a deep and protracted recession.

 

Surely in light of the amount of trade we do with the EU (according to the pro EU's), then quite clearly we are reaching a point of "real danger to our economy", exactly what Cameron and GO are saying.

 

It seems that Labour recession's are caused by global issues, but these global issues never have any effect on Tory recessions.....Strange that.

 

And equally strange that at the time of the last global crisis the tories said it was solely down to Labour's economic policy.

 

Simple truth is is that the markets are dry butt fuc king us all.

[dune]

And equally strange that at the time of the last global crisis the tories said it was solely down to Labour's economic policy.

 

Simple truth is is that the markets are dry butt fuc king us all.

 

It's our own fault though for indebting ourselves over decades. We in the west are functioning on tick and that was always going to end in tears.

[Lord Duckhunter]

And equally strange that at the time of the last global crisis the tories said it was solely down to Labour's economic policy.

 

Simple truth is is that the markets are dry butt fuc king us all.

 

Quite clearly, but the post I was answering to was "One thing the euro is obviously good for is being a scape goat for Cameron and Osbourne to try and explain why growth in the UK has slowed to a crawl.".

 

It is not a scapegoat, any problems in the Euro will cause British growth to stall.

 

It is inconsistant for the Labour party and its supporters to bang on about how much trade we do with Europe, so much in fact that we can not leave the EU, but then turn round and saya crisis there wont effect growth in the UK.........

[Lord Duckhunter]

It's our own fault though for indebting ourselves over decades. We in the west are functioning on tick and that was always going to end in tears.

 

And the Torys are equally to blame. Dont forget they promised to match Labour's spending plans until about 2008. Both parties had neither the wit or wisdom to understand that more and more spending would lead us where we are. It became the political consensus that more and more spending was "investment" and that this was a good thing. Now it is becoming impossible to put the genie back in the bottle.........

[View From The Top]

Quite clearly, but the post I was answering to was "One thing the euro is obviously good for is being a scape goat for Cameron and Osbourne to try and explain why growth in the UK has slowed to a crawl.".

 

It is not a scapegoat, any problems in the Euro will cause British growth to stall.

 

It is inconsistant for the Labour party and its supporters to bang on about how much trade we do with Europe, so much in fact that we can not leave the EU, but then turn round and saya crisis there wont effect growth in the UK.........

 

Not all members of the Labour party nor its supporters say we cannot leave the EU and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

[View From The Top]

It's our own fault though for indebting ourselves over decades. We in the west are functioning on tick and that was always going to end in tears.

 

The fault of all our political masters.

[um pahars]

Quite clearly the Euro loonys and the Labour Party are the ones that need to get their story stright here.

 

I think it is only fair to highlight that the Conservatives were the ones conveniently ignoring the World financial meltdown and trying to blame the UK's plight solely on the Labour administration (not that they were innocent parties mind, as they certainly should have reined things in in the latter years) when they were campaigning in the run up to the General Election. That is why I think some find their current reaction to the Eurozone worries as somewhat galling.

 

I think it is obvious that the Eurozone Meltdown will have a significant impact on the UK economy and it is right to highlight that, but it is a bit naughty for them to have ignored the larger and perhaps more significant Worldwide meltdown of a few years ago when berating the then Government.

 

Whilst I don't advocate a live by the sword, die by the sword policy, I can understand why some might want to be less generous.

 

We are reaptedly told that to leave the EU would be madness, because of all the Trade we do with Europe. Therefore it stands to reason that if Europe is in decline and facing tough austerity measures, with no growth, then that will clearly impact on British growth and jobs.

 

Or are they trying to say that we cant leave the EU because of all the Trade we do with them, but our growth is not linked to all that trade?

 

As someone who is leftish of centre, then I have to say I'm no advocate of the European integration we have seen. My main objection is the lack of accountability and democracy (something so wonderfully highlighted by the bureaucratic overthrows of Greece and Italy - Europes Autumn uprising curtailing democracy).

 

However, I'm open to debate and one question no-one seems to have been able to answer is just how important Europe is to UK PLC.

 

Is it negligible or unimportant as you suggest, or is it considerable and a major issue as suggested by many of the UK's corporations? I'm not one that accepts money is everything, but I would like to know the full cost to UK PLC(positive, negative or neutral).

 

Why is the City and UK PLC so pro Europe?

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

 

 

As someone who is leftish of centre, then I have to say I'm no advocate of the European integration we have seen. My main objection is the lack of accountability and democracy (something so wonderfully highlighted by the bureaucratic overthrows of Greece and Italy - Europes Autumn uprising curtailing democracy).

 

However, I'm open to debate and one question no-one seems to have been able to answer is just how important Europe is to UK PLC.

 

Is it negligible or unimportant as you suggest, or is it considerable and a major issue as suggested by many of the UK's corporations? I'm not one that accepts money is everything, but I would like to know the full cost to UK PLC(positive, negative or neutral).

 

Why is the City and UK PLC so pro Europe?

 

I agree regarding the accountability, what we signed up for is not what the EU is now. The majority may like that fact, but we should have been asked.

 

 

On your second point; Personally, I do not believe that leaving the EU will effect 1 cent of our Trade with the remaining EU countries. The French and Germans will not stop trading with us, or indeed cut back at all. If we have goods or services they want, they'll buy them whether we are in or out of the EU. There maybe some tinkering around the edges and some tariff's involved in certain export or imports, but in this age of a global economy I dont think they'll amount to much. certainly they will be considerably less than the billions of our money poured away by the EU.

 

The City may well be pro EU, but surely it's for the British people to decide, not the City and certainly not professional politicans, many of whom were wrong about the Euro, most of whom did not see where more and more debt would lead us, and many of whom were on the take and fiddling their expenses.

 

It's funny how we get up and protest about a Manager at our football club, or against the owner of the club or stadium name change and yet allow ourselves to sleep walk into giving away vast areas of our self governence (hard fought for by our forefathers)

[um pahars]

The City may well be pro EU, but surely it's for the British people to decide, not the City

 

I'm not suggesting that the City should decide, merely that I would like to know why they seem to be so in favour of staying in Europe??

 

Is it really that beneficial to UK PLC (or just more beneficial to them), if so then I would take that in to consideration when deciding whether I think it is in our interests to stay in and balancing that out against what I think is an obvious lack of accountancy/democracy.

[Wurzel]

I agree regarding the accountability, what we signed up for is not what the EU is now. The majority may like that fact, but we should have been asked.

 

 

On your second point; Personally, I do not believe that leaving the EU will effect 1 cent of our Trade with the remaining EU countries. The French and Germans will not stop trading with us, or indeed cut back at all. If we have goods or services they want, they'll buy them whether we are in or out of the EU. There maybe some tinkering around the edges and some tariff's involved in certain export or imports, but in this age of a global economy I dont think they'll amount to much. certainly they will be considerably less than the billions of our money poured away by the EU.

 

 

Exactly the phrase I have used over and over again on this subject. It's not like China/Japan/Korea/insert any other Far East country have suffered from a downturn in trade with us/Germany/France/et al through not being an EU member is it.

 

Also I've read in the past (but no idea if it's true or not), that any exports that leave UK heading for Rotterdam container port before being forwarded on to anywhere else in the world counts statistically as an export to the EU.

[dune]

Good article here for those with equity investments. With the Dow now back around 12000 and the FTSE over performing at around 5550, it might be as good a point as we'll see to get out and keep the powder dry. All Greece and Italy have done is replace their leaders and implementing what they need to do is easier said than done.

 

http://moneymorning.com/2011/09/27/prepare-to-profit-from-the-next-stock-market-crash/

[Saintandy666]

And the Torys are equally to blame. Dont forget they promised to match Labour's spending plans until about 2008. Both parties had neither the wit or wisdom to understand that more and more spending would lead us where we are. It became the political consensus that more and more spending was "investment" and that this was a good thing. Now it is becoming impossible to put the genie back in the bottle.........

 

The Liberal Democrats spotted it. Good ol' Vince saw all this coming!

[Frank's cousin]

I'm not suggesting that the City should decide, merely that I would like to know why they seem to be so in favour of staying in Europe??

 

Is it really that beneficial to UK PLC (or just more beneficial to them), if so then I would take that in to consideration when deciding whether I think it is in our interests to stay in and balancing that out against what I think is an obvious lack of accountancy/democracy.

 

Have to agree with you UP. I dont knwothe ansqwer but its a pretty good guess to speculate it will involve wealth generation ;-)

 

I actually have no issue with a more integrated EU, never felt that single currency and beaurocrats/politicos all in Brussels and Strasboug would make any dent in my national identity - and to be honest, that identity is only the here and now... in the grand scheme of cultural and biological evolution its insignificant anyway... however I do agree with the issue of accountability and to all voters and the EU has been its own worst enemy given the wastage and inefficiency it has precisd over... although our rather xenophobic media has often over egged that as well.

 

The problem with letting 'the people' decide is once again that most dont bother to try and understand ALL the complex pros and cons - and merely follow a party line or the standrad nationalistic rhetoric - is it better for the UK in or out? guess it depends on what criteria - economics? trade? democracy? employment opportunities? all are pretty complex and I dont have enough knowledge to make an informed choice based on understanding the issues surrounding all the criteria..and I would hazzard a guess that 90% of the UK population dont either - so would I want such a decsion made by folks who dont understand the details, or by politicians that will often do what they think will either wins votes or line their own pockets? tricky choice. My problem with the wonderful democratic process of referenda is that we end up in that sad situation again as with changing the voting system... probably a mish mash of biassed mediareporting, poor communication of the the pros and cons and a question worded in such a way that it is a cop out anyway...

[scotty]

Berlusconi has just gone, that can only be a positive. Mario Monti favourite to replace him. I'm pleased to see the back of that shrivelled hair-transplanted perve, its time he went, will be fascinating to see what the courts make of the various outstanding cases against him now that he isnt protected by his position (fnarr fnarr)

[Dark Munster]

Unfortunately one of the problems with democracy at the moment is that politicians that are relying on a popular vote are in charge of fiscal policy. Budgets should be like judiciary and should be independent and not under the control of someone whose position is secured by popular vote

 

This. Most voters are like children, wanting something for nothing and believing the lies the candidates tell them. It's particularly bad here in the US.