Saintandy666 Posted 10 November, 2011 Share Posted 10 November, 2011 A United States of Europe wouldn't be as disastrous as you think. Economically, we'd be a massive bloc(the world's largest economy). And we'd be able to make people listen to us in a way the EU doesn't quite yet. And as for identity... US States still have strong identities even though they are in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 10 November, 2011 Share Posted 10 November, 2011 A United States of Europe wouldn't be as disastrous as you think. Economically, we'd be a massive bloc(the world's largest economy). And we'd be able to make people listen to us in a way the EU doesn't quite yet. And as for identity... US States still have strong identities even though they are in the US. I'm sorry but this is the point that I start to not take you seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 10 November, 2011 Share Posted 10 November, 2011 It may be seen as overreacting to some, but anyone who advocates a United States of Europe is deluded and a traitor to both democracy and to the country in which they live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 10 November, 2011 Share Posted 10 November, 2011 I'm sorry but this is the point that I start to not take you seriously. US States have strong identities as individual states... as well as the obviously strong USA identity on top. Though to be honest, the whole idea that what nation people believe they are in matters in the grand scheme of thing is bull****. Nations are created in the mind, and are purely psychological. What matters is how we treat each other and how we treat the world. The sooner we realise we are totally insignificant beings on a tiny rock floating in the big of a massive area of nothing, the better. We need to stick together, and co-operate more, not separate ourselves up and fight because we were born on a different area of geographical land which didn't even exist as an entity not so long ago. And I've surprised myself with that rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 10 November, 2011 Share Posted 10 November, 2011 It may be seen as overreacting to some, but anyone who advocates a United States of Europe is deluded and a traitor to both democracy and to the country in which they live. How does it make you a traitor to democracy... I'm not going to force it on you. I'd only want it if it was popular overall(which I concede it isn't). You are the one who is a 'traitor' to democracy by suggest I am a traitor for having a different view to you. A USE could be perfectly democratic if set up properly. And as for being a traitor to my country, see above. I love living in the UK, but I really think it's about time some of us stopped fighting over where we were born. We're all humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 11 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 11 November, 2011 It may be seen as overreacting to some, but anyone who advocates a United States of Europe is deluded and a traitor to both democracy and to the country in which they live. No, not overreacting. Trolling. Traitor? Get a grip. Or a swastika tattooed on your head. At least then people will see you coming when you tell them how to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 US States have strong identities as individual states... as well as the obviously strong USA identity on top. Do I really have to put out to you the absolutely massive (MASSIVE) differences between the United States and Europe? Both in terms of ideology, history, culture as well as the fact that Europe means very little to most Europeans (compared to say the patriotism seen in the States). That's just one reason why it is a totally different situation and would never work. Other European countries bring corruption etc to the table and the very fact that someone advocates political union with other European countries is astounding. It would be interesting to know who you have been talking to to form these misguided opinions. I bet your parents are pro Europe. Though to be honest, the whole idea that what nation people believe they are in matters in the grand scheme of thing is bull****. Nations are created in the mind, and are purely psychological. What matters is how we treat each other and how we treat the world. The sooner we realise we are totally insignificant beings on a tiny rock floating in the big of a massive area of nothing, the better. We need to stick together, and co-operate more, not separate ourselves up and fight because we were born on a different area of geographical land which didn't even exist as an entity not so long ago. And I've surprised myself with that rant. That is a completely deluded view. You are living in a fantasy. Whilst it's very admirable that you feel that way, the majority feel differently about their nationality and if you really think that everyone just wants to get along and cooperate then you need help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 That is a completely deluded view. You are living in a fantasy. Whilst it's very admirable that you feel that way, the majority feel differently about their nationality and if you really think that everyone just wants to get along and cooperate then you need help. I never said that people just want to get along and co-operate. I think if you read my point, you'd see that I am bemoaning that people choose NOT to get along because they were built on a different geographical area of land... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 No, not overreacting. Trolling. Traitor? Get a grip. Or a swastika tattooed on your head. At least then people will see you coming when you tell them how to think. Oh hilarious. I'm a nazi because I think the United States of Europe is an affront to democracy and I am aghast that some wish for the UK to lose its independence? Please try not to call people a troll just because you disagree, it does your view no favours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Also, I love how you assume my views must come from my parents. I can assure you I differ from my parents in MANY areas. But it's hardly relevant to this discussion, and I don't see why I am now having to defend myself against this. It bloody annoys me how eurosceptics can not understand how people have different views. If you do you either 'come from the establishment' or 'get your views from your parents'. At least I respect your views and see why you came to them. I understand and see the arguments that you hold. You hold however, zero respect for mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Oh hilarious. I'm a nazi because I think the United States of Europe is an affront to democracy and I am aghast that some wish for the UK to lose its independence? Please try not to call people a troll just because you disagree, it does your view no favours. You always dismiss other ideas as stupid or anti-democratic when really they are just different views to yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Also, I love how you assume my views must come from my parents. I can assure you I differ from my parents in MANY areas. But it's hardly relevant to this discussion, and I don't see why I am now having to defend myself against this. It bloody annoys me how eurosceptics can not understand how people have different views. If you do you either 'come from the establishment' or 'get your views from your parents'. At least I respect your views and see why you came to them. I understand and see the arguments that you hold. You hold however, zero respect for mine. I didn't assume anything, I said I bet they are simply because your ideas seem ill thought out. Most eurosceptics are portrayed as nutters by the press yet eurosceptics make up the majority of the UK. You are in the minority. Do you understand the fundamental differences between the US and Europe that makes a US of E a fantasy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 You always dismiss other ideas as stupid or anti-democratic when really they are just different views to yours. No I don't,I have always considered the notion of a United States of Europe to be stupid and IMO it would lead to even more abuses of power by those at the top (hence anti democracy) and a diminishing of the UKs power and influence. Why you think I just dismiss it as stupid simply because it's a different opinion I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 I didn't assume anything, I said I bet they are simply because your ideas seem ill thought out. Most eurosceptics are portrayed as nutters by the press yet eurosceptics make up the majority of the UK. You are in the minority. Do you understand the fundamental differences between the US and Europe that makes a US of E a fantasy? It is just a different ideological view and there are arguments to back both sides? And where you stand depends on what you believe, and much cleverer people than you and me believe what I believe and what you believe, so I don't think either are ill thought out ideas. Both are conceivable and workable scenarios, but which one is better? Differences are irrelevant. Most of the differences over Europe are merely psychological loyalty towards a geographical area of land. Much more unites us than divides us, and we are stupid to fight when we are so much stronger together. I don't necessarily support a USE or not, but it is viable, economically and democratically. And I know I am in the minority, but that doesn't mean I am wrong. And even if I am the only person that thinks what I do, it doesn't matter so your point is pretty invalid unless you don't believe in a free market of ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 No I don't,I have always considered the notion of a United States of Europe to be stupid and IMO it would lead to even more abuses of power by those at the top (hence anti democracy) and a diminishing of the UKs power and influence. Why you think I just dismiss it as stupid simply because it's a different opinion I have no idea. Whether there are abuses of power is irrelevant to size of the democracy. For example Swaziland(a tiny country) has massive corruption(http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?ccrcountry=168&ccrpage=37&edition=8&page=140§ion=84), but then so do many larger countries. What prevents corruption is accountability and how the system is set up. What checks and balances are put in place and how power is exercised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 And the UK has barely any power or influence anyway. As a United Europe though, we'd be a significant player in it and a United Europe would carry far more influence than the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 And for what it is worth, the time is no-where near right for a USE at the moment, in this crisis. I'm just trying to say it isn't as ridiculous as people think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 It may be seen as overreacting to some, but anyone who advocates a United States of Europe is deluded and a traitor to both democracy and to the country in which they live. No overreaction in my eyes. I've lived over here for the best part of 15 years, so see the positives of Europe, but even then I cannot endorse union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 And the UK has barely any power or influence anyway. As a United Europe though, we'd be a significant player in it and a United Europe would carry far more influence than the UK. Christ, you are such a bleeding heart liberal wet blanket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Christ, you are such a bleeding heart liberal wet blanket. Better than being a pr*ck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Better than being a pr*ck. Dont be so hard on yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Dont be so hard on yourself. Fair play you whingeing f*cker. I didn't realise you had a sense of humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbattigger Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Why would a United Sates of Europe work any better than U.S.S.R or Checkoslovakia for that matter? It would appear from the recent past that joining different nations does not work. The USA does as at the end of the day they are all Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint si Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 The irony in the air is making it hard to breathe... presume you all know the history of the United Kingdom? Clue's in the name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 The irony in the air is making it hard to breathe... presume you all know the history of the United Kingdom? Clue's in the name. Hmm... ask any Scot if he is british or Scottish and see what answer you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 The irony in the air is making it hard to breathe... presume you all know the history of the United Kingdom? Clue's in the name. mmmmm now that's an idea. So our royal family take over the rest of europe by a combination of diplomacy,marrige and war. We will need a few pretexts but I imagine the royal family could still lay claim to parts of France, Denmark and Germany and take it from there, Calais first?...............better still we can still be the United Kingdom of great Britian we will just be a lot bigger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Christ, you are such a bleeding heart liberal wet blanket. That doesn't even make sense. I don't think anyone on this forum understands what ideology is with the way they chuck around liberal and socialist etc Also, thanks for engaging me in debate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 The irony in the air is making it hard to breathe... presume you all know the history of the United Kingdom? Clue's in the name. Exactly, nations are psychological constructs. What people think now is irrelevant. In the future certain turns of events could create other psychological communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint si Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Hmm... ask any Scot if he is british or Scottish and see what answer you get. Which sort of reinforces the idea of retaining separate state identities within a single union. FWIW, my own view is that the current idea of European (economic) union is fundamentally broken, where states can act independently to such a degree (i.e. unchecked fiscal policy independence) that they can bring down the economy/currency of the entire union. Unifying/centralising the risk should mean unifying/centralising the responsibility too. Also, the US is an interesting example - take the historic (and prevailing) resistance to the federal government (as compared to the state government) and parallels can be drawn with current resistance to political union in Europe and "those bureaucrats in Brussels". Right, gonna save one of my 3 posts a day for football. Or possibly P****y Takeover Saga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Looks like possibly being a bad day for those that don't like the euro. Greece about confirm new PM who is a proper economist, Italy have passed the vote on the austerity measures and just about all the stock markets are up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Human nature always requires that (1) we belong to identifiable groupings { English, Saints fans, protestant, etc ), and (2) that there is always somebody we can look down on and determine as being inferior { the French, Skates, etc }. Every country in the world is an artificial historical construct, it's just that some have been around longer than others. The UK didn't exist before 1801, Great Britain didn't exist before the Act of Union, England as a united entity within it's currently defined borders didn't exist when William the Conqueror invaded. The only common unifying factor is that we are all , ( regardless of creed, colour, size, IQ, sexuality, or religion ), members of a single species inhabiting a single planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Which sort of reinforces the idea of retaining separate state identities within a single union. FWIW, my own view is that the current idea of European (economic) union is fundamentally broken, where states can act independently to such a degree (i.e. unchecked fiscal policy independence) that they can bring down the economy/currency of the entire union. Unifying/centralising the risk should mean unifying/centralising the responsibility too. Also, the US is an interesting example - take the historic (and prevailing) resistance to the federal government (as compared to the state government) and parallels can be drawn with current resistance to political union in Europe and "those bureaucrats in Brussels". Right, gonna save one of my 3 posts a day for football. Or possibly P****y Takeover Saga. Considering that a growing number of Scots would like independene beyond a devolved assembly, I would disagree with this. I do agree with your second point that Europe has to be all or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Looks like possibly being a bad day for those that don't like the euro. Greece about confirm new PM who is a proper economist, Italy have passed the vote on the austerity measures and just about all the stock markets are up. Or it could be that all the hedge funds are balancing the books after a very proftable week of short selling. Good news re the greeks and Italians, although getting in a proper economist may be 10 years to late for the Greeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Looks like possibly being a bad day for those that don't like the euro. Greece about confirm new PM who is a proper economist, Italy have passed the vote on the austerity measures and just about all the stock markets are up. As much as some people don't want to be in the Euro, I can't see their logic in wanting to see it fail. It would be a catastrophe for countries outside of the Euro, as well as in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Key step now is that Bunga Bunga Berlusconi has to follow through with his promise to resign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 That is a completely deluded view. You are living in a fantasy. Whilst it's very admirable that you feel that way, the majority feel differently about their nationality and if you really think that everyone just wants to get along and cooperate then you need help. All those things, culture, ideology, history etc are in teh grand scheme of things and in terms of human social and anthropological evolution relatively 'recent' - afterall we all came out of Africa originally - depends on where you draw the line as what is significant - as humans migrated, created local history and culture evolved because these groups were relatively isolated... and borders were fought over - move on a a mere 1000 years or so and we now have a situation where travel and migration are reuniting both the gene pool and seeing political, social and cultural reintergration (for those not so obsessed with a culture that is no more than several humdred years old - afterall Even before the lastest immigration from former commonwealth countries, we were ana amalgum of saxons (Germany) Angles, French, Nordics and celts.... - If you see this as a challenge to democracy you are missing a very big point - all depends on what short term timeline some folk adhere to - means feck all in grand scheme of things - its why racists are such ****s - as we all came from the same gene pool and current global travel is thankfully going to ensure taht one day (a few 1000 years or so) we will all be far more integrated than now... which can only be a good thing surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Exactly, nations are psychological constructs. What people think now is irrelevant. In the future certain turns of events could create other psychological communities. Whilst I probably agree with most of what you've said, the biggest obstacle to a United States Of Europe is language. I don't purport to be an expert on this, but my guess is that when the states of America became unified, that most of the population spoke English, I'm sure there was a bit of Dutch, Spanish etc, but mostly English. I can't see the Germans, French, Italians or anyone else for that matter changing to the English language, and we've certainly got no chance of changing to a foreign tongue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Whilst I probably agree with most of what you've said, the biggest obstacle to a United States Of Europe is language. I don't purport to be an expert on this, but my guess is that when the states of America became unified, that most of the population spoke English, I'm sure there was a bit of Dutch, Spanish etc, but mostly English. I can't see the Germans, French, Italians or anyone else for that matter changing to the English language, and we've certainly got no chance of changing to a foreign tongue. http://www.dalhousielodge.org/Thesis/scotstonc.htm Just for your interest, there are the ethnic groups. By those stats, I make it about 60% who would speak English as first language. But I don't think language is a massive barrier. Just look at South Africas language split!!! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_South_Africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Euro from the beginning should have become a Federated union instead of doing what they did and lump rich and poor into a union that has resulted in the current disaster. Rich countries have been brought down to the level of the weaker members. It was flawed from the moment they went for enlarging the Union without giving proper consideration to the long term consequences. I believe the euro will survive but not before a huge devaluation that I fear is what Obama is calling for. The weakened euro gives the likes of China and Russia huge opportunity of buying up resources on the cheap, as a preferred means to lending money. Hidden beneath the economies of most European countries is an immense clandestine economy of Chinese and Russians operating apart. It's high time governments did something to expose and reign in the millions of illegal underground operators who cream off fortunes and pay not a penny into the actual economies of European countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 The only common unifying factor is that we are all , ( regardless of creed, colour, size, IQ, sexuality, or religion ), members of a single species inhabiting a single planet. Incorrect. I'll have you know that I'm from another planet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 This thread has entered the relms of fantasy. I might start a thread on "where should I take Cheryl Cole on our first date", because that's more likely than a United States of Europe. One of the main reasons for the set up of the EEC, was to promote peace and harmony between the nations of Europe. How is lumping them all together unedr a federal Govt, dominated by German going to help this? The USA is a pretty new country, that also fought a bloody civil war to become what it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Hmm... ask any Scot if he is british or Scottish and see what answer you get. there are plenty - go and stand outside of Ibrox and ask that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Incorrect. I'll have you know that I'm from another planet If Dune had posted that I would have believed it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Whilst I probably agree with most of what you've said, the biggest obstacle to a United States Of Europe is language. I don't purport to be an expert on this, but my guess is that when the states of America became unified, that most of the population spoke English, I'm sure there was a bit of Dutch, Spanish etc, but mostly English. I can't see the Germans, French, Italians or anyone else for that matter changing to the English language, and we've certainly got no chance of changing to a foreign tongue. It will take time but eventually the rest of Europe will become like the Netherlands and Scandinavia - they know no-one outside learns their language so they learn English to communicate - one language for home, one for abroad. 30 years ago only a small minority of people in France and Germany spoke good English. Now probably at least half under 40 do and in another 30 years you will likely be an oddity if you dont . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Today I have taken the opportunity to instruct the sale of all my equity investments. I'm diverting into to corporate bonds and now hoping for a huge eurozone train crash whereupon i'll reinvest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 11 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Oh hilarious. I'm a nazi because I think the United States of Europe is an affront to democracy and I am aghast that some wish for the UK to lose its independence? Please try not to call people a troll just because you disagree, it does your view no favours. No actually, I was referring to the trick that authoritarian states pull so often - saying that anyone that doesn't adhere to their ideological standards is an enemy of the state. The amusing aspect of your latest little tirade is that I happen to be aligned with your general views on Europe, but branding people traitors because they don't happen to agree with you is pure trolling, and you knew it, else you would not have started with "some may see this as an overreaction". I dunno where you're going for your audacity supplies, but get me some. It's okay for you to call people traitors, but not okay for others to call you out for your blatant trip-trap-ery? You stepped over the line. Move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surman4no7shirt Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Living in the Eurozone myself. Am keeping some Sterling in my wallet just in case. Inflation is a lot higher than reported at the moment. Especially on food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Living in the Eurozone myself. Am keeping some Sterling in my wallet just in case. Inflation is a lot higher than reported at the moment. Especially on food. When I was in Spain recently staying with friends in their exclusive front line golf villa it was a nightmare driving around the area (gualdalmina alto) due to a new road being half built and now stopped as the money has run out. It reminded me of some banana republic. Then you look at all the boarded up shops and half built developments and places for sale and you are realise that for all the complaining, we are a lot better off here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Today I have taken the opportunity to instruct the sale of all my equity investments. I'm diverting into to corporate bonds and now hoping for a huge eurozone train crash whereupon i'll reinvest. F*cking hell, I bet the money markets of Europe are sh*tting themselves. You are fast becoming my favourite poster, keep it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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