What are you public sector lot up to on Weds then?

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

you dont really think to a very deep level do you

 

His attitude towards The City is everything that is wrong with capitalism.

[bridge too far]

You make some good points.

However, the world economy has taken a battering, the previous government were financially and socially inept, leaving the working population to pick up the tab.

Virtually all private sector employees have had pay/benefits cut in order to keep their businesses viable - surely the public sector should not be exempt from the financial meltdown?

 

Of my immediate family (my partner, my children and their partners), four work in the private sector and all have had pay rises this year. My SiL the teacher got a 2.3% rise this year, but of course his pension contributions will rise more than that. Another one works for a Housing Association and hasn't had a pay rise but has had an increase in pension contributions. The one that works for the NHS hasn't had a pay rise but will see an increase in pension contributions. The final family member is self-employed and is doing very well at the moment.

 

So I think you're wrong to say 'virtually all' private sector employees haven't had a pay rise. It seems to me that it's the public sector who haven't had pay rises.

[dingbattigger]

On the other side of the coin btf my family, all private sector, haven't had a pay rise this year. In fact Mrs D hasn't had a pay rise for 4 years and many of our friends in the private sector have not had pay rises this year either.

[um pahars]

On the other side of the coin btf my family, all private sector, haven't had a pay rise this year. In fact Mrs D hasn't had a pay rise for 4 years and many of our friends in the private sector have not had pay rises this year either.

 

Latest data I saw was that whilst Public Sector pay rises had been stuck at zero, median pay rises in the private sector were at least 3% higher.

 

(large scale surveys are much more reliable than anecdotes one way or the other)

[pap]

Pap, don't worry - the private sector will pick up on all the services decimated by the reduction in the public sector.

 

You know, like the Winterbourne View hospital for people with learning difficulties, run by the private sector and now closed because of abuse.

 

Like Southern Cross who provide private care homes for the elderly and who blatantly asset-stripped itself and then went bust.

 

Yep, the private sector does it so much better.

 

That, or the age old trick of saying "oh sh*t - we really did need those people", and ending up hiring the same people back on three times wages.

 

I doubt that any money will be solved in the long run. It's all economic trickery so that we can assure the people that we owe all the money to that we don't have a massive public sector headcount.

[View From The Top]

Near where I work they spent oddles of dosh building sheltered housing for vulnerable adults with plenty of support workers. The logic being that it saved, on average £20k per adult per annum not having them in "homes".

 

The support workers were all made redundant and over 50% of the adults are now back in full time care and flats stand empty.

 

Huge net loss to the tax payer and it's this sort of idiocy that does the most damage.

 

Cull the non-jobs, I'm all for it and we could still lose 20% of my non teaching staff no problem, but lets think things through and the depth and speed of the cuts has meant that the thinking hasn't been done.

 

I'll enjoy working from home tomorrow, plenty of paperwork, that I try to avoid, will finally get done.

Edited 29 November, 2011 by View From The Top

[JackanorySFC]

...and if they didn't **** it up the wall on speculative gambles then we wouldn't be in this mess. I'm afraid it is all swings and roundabouts.

 

Haven't we alreday established that your wife/girlfriend isn't representative? The fact that she isn't going on a demo tomorrow already demonstrates to me that she doesn't give one shiny ****e about the cause. If she isn't convinced enough to protest she should be in work. For me it is a political/ideological/financial decision to strike tomorrow. Anyone who either doesn't understand the issue or doesn't really care about it should go into work - much like my fiance, the English teacher, who is in work tomorrow along with about 15 others who are nor striking for various reasons.

 

A number of points:

 

Who are the "we" you talk about that have established that my girlfriend isn't representative?

 

She was harassed into striking by senior teachers and felt obliged to join them as she is an NQT, do you not remember what that felt like when you were in her position at a new school with elder staff you rely on to mentor you?

 

They had cakes to "celebrate" their Christmas shopping day as it looks like there won't be any snow days! I was shocked but I backed her as she is a great cook and wants to feel part of the group.

 

Finally, your a homophobe. I have proof in your posts that the mods can see, quite frankly I'm disgusted you have such strong feelings about same sex relationships whilst held in a position of trust with impressionable young children, they could end up hate filled..

[JackanorySFC]

His attitude towards The City is everything that is wrong with capitalism.

 

Please explain?

 

A guy far far more intelligent and hard working than you or I uses his knowledge to make money, he makes it and spends it paying 20% VAT on those goods enabling the government to pay your wages.

 

If that is wrong what is the alternative that idiots like me should be aware of?

[dune]

A number of points:

 

Who are the "we" you talk about that have established that my girlfriend isn't representative?

 

She was harassed into striking by senior teachers and felt obliged to join them as she is an NQT, do you not remember what that felt like when you were in her position at a new school with elder staff you rely on to mentor you?

 

They had cakes to "celebrate" their Christmas shopping day as it looks like there won't be any snow days! I was shocked but I backed her as she is a great cook and wants to feel part of the group.

 

Finally, your a homophobe. I have proof in your posts that the mods can see, quite frankly I'm disgusted you have such strong feelings about same sex relationships whilst held in a position of trust with impressionable young children, they could end up hate filled..

 

Who the f/ck do you think you are?

 

Thorpe-le-saint is a member of UAF and a senior member of the TSW Liberal Elite Crew. What is and what isn't acceptable is for TLS and his crew to decide. If TLS says racism is bad but homophobia is OK you should know your place and bow to his superior status.

[dune]

His attitude towards The City is everything that is wrong with capitalism.

 

You are clueless. Your ideologies have been tried in the USSR and Eastern Europe. They didn't work.

 

Winston Churchill was spot on:

 

On Socialism:

 

"If I were asked the difference between Socialism and Communism, I could only reply that the Socialist tries to lead us to disaster by foolish words and the Communist could try to drive us there by violent deeds."

 

"Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the State."

 

"Government of the duds, by the duds, and for the duds."

 

"No socialist system can be established without a political police."

 

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy."

 

"It is not alone that property, in all its forms, is struck at, but that liberty, in all its forms, is challenged by the fundamental conceptions of socialism."

 

"'All men are created equal' says the American Declaration of Independence. 'All men shall be kept equal' say the Socialists."

 

"Some see private enterprise as a predatory animal to be shot, others look on it as a cow to be milked but a few see it as a sturdy horse pulling a wagon."

 

"If you destroy a free market, you create a black market."

 

"The vice of capitalism is that it stands for the unequal sharing of blessings; whereas the virtue of socialism is that it stands for the equal sharing of misery."

 

"Socialism assails the pre-eminence of the individual."

 

"Is it better to have equality at the price of poverty or well-being at the price of inequality?"

 

"The flame of Christian ethics is still our best guide...only on this basis can we reconcile the rights of the individual with the demands of society."

 

On leftists:

 

"They are the most disagreeable of people...Their insincerity? Can you not feel a sense of disgust at the arrogant presumption of superiority of these people? Superiority of intellect! Then, when it comes to practice, down they fall with a wallop not only to the level of ordinary human beings but to a level which is even far below the average."

 

"These very high intellectual persons who wake up every morning...see what they can find to demolish, to undermine, or cast away."

 

"Let them quit these gospels of envy, hate, and malice. Let them abandon the utter fallacy, the grotesque, erroneous, fatal blunder of believing that by limiting the enterprise of man, by riveting the shackles of a false equality...they will increase the well-being of the world."

 

On Communism:

 

"Bolshevism is not a policy; it is a disease."

 

"The day will come when it will be recognized without doubt throughout the civilized world that the strangling of Bolshevism at birth would have been an untold blessing to the human race."

[Saint in Paradise]

Do you remember when teachers, ambulance staff, nurses, midwives, doctors and firemen crashed the markets,

wiped out economic stability, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax?

 

No, me neither. Yet, it is public sector pensions which are under attack.

[trousers]

Do you remember when teachers, ambulance staff, nurses, midwives, doctors and firemen crashed the markets,

wiped out economic stability, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax?

 

No, me neither. Yet, it is public sector pensions which are under attack.

 

Good cut and paste from Facebook that... ;-)

[dune]

Do you remember when teachers, ambulance staff, nurses, midwives, doctors and firemen crashed the markets,

wiped out economic stability, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax?

 

No, me neither. Yet, it is public sector pensions which are under attack.

 

What a shame. I bet most public sector workers voted for Labour after Brown/Balls had raided private sector schemes.

 

[trousers]

Do you remember when teachers, ambulance staff, nurses, midwives, doctors and firemen crashed the markets,

wiped out economic stability, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax?

 

No, me neither. Yet, it is public sector pensions which are under attack.

 

Are you saying there wouldn't have been a 'pension gap' if the nasty bankers hadn't screwed up? And there was me thinking that people living longer had nothing to do with the banking crisis... ;-)

[trousers]

Anyway, it's a good start to my day. A nice lie-in followed by a relaxed work from home whilst spending some quality time with my son. More strikes please!

[Saint in Paradise]

Good cut and paste from Facebook that... ;-)

 

No from another forum, it was part of a letter in the Independent newspaper.

 

Just thought I would post it to stir things up a bit.

 

.

[dune]

No from another forum, it was part of a letter in the Independent newspaper.

 

Just thought I would post it to stir things up a bit.

 

.

 

You don't need to stir much with the lefties. Ironically it's their lack of humour and bland personalities that makes them amusing.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

You are clueless.

 

Can you tell me why the government have REFUSED to carry out an audit on public sector pensions? Thanks.

 

Anyway, off to Colchester I go - "Unity is Strength!"

[badgerx16]

You don't need to stir much with the lefties. Ironically it's their lack of humour and bland personalities that makes them amusing.

Says the man who doesn't know what his opinion is today until he's seen the Daily Mail headlines.

[dune]

off to Colchester I go - "Unity is Strength!"

 

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

 

Can you tell me why the government has REFUSED to carry out an audit on the cost of our pensions please dune? Thanks for your support in this matter because I really must get going.

[um pahars]

She was harassed into striking by senior teachers and felt obliged to join them as she is an NQT, do you not remember what that felt like when you were in her position at a new school with elder staff you rely on to mentor you?

 

I think your girlfriend might need to grow a backbone and stand up to these bullies. Teaching is a tough profession and methinks she will need to develop a stronger side if she is to succeed.

 

Secondly, one can only despair that the school she works in has such a weak leadership team to allow this type of behaviour to happen and that she does not feel she can report it to them.

 

Some lovely anecdotes in your posts.

[dune]

Can you tell me why the government has REFUSED to carry out an audit on the cost of our pensions please dune? Thanks for your support in this matter because I really must get going.

 

Just go. This time tomorrow you'll be back at school and your pathetic little protest will have achieved nothing.

[Gingeletiss]

I think your girlfriend might need to grow a backbone and stand up to these bullies. Teaching is a tough profession and methinks she will need to develop a stronger side if she is to succeed.

 

Secondly, one can only despair that the school she works in has such a weak leadership team to allow this type of behaviour to happen and that she does not feel she can report it to them.

 

Some lovely anecdotes in your posts.

 

Wrong again! Spoke to a young female teacher mid thirties last night, she said that life would be hell at school, if she didn't strike, this was made clear to her. Unions are bully boys, pure and simple.

[Verbal]

Wrong again! Spoke to a young female teacher mid thirties last night, she said that life would be hell at school, if she didn't strike, this was made clear to her. Unions are bully boys, pure and simple.

 

Ah, the swivel-eyed right wing's poor grip of logic strikes (!) again. Of course one debatable case means you can generalise to an entire union movement...

[LGTL]

Just go. This time tomorrow you'll be back at school and your pathetic little protest will have achieved nothing.

 

I'd hardly call an estimated 2 million little....

[dune]

I'd hardly call an estimated 2 million little....

 

Of that 2 million can we say 1 million voluntary demonstrators and 1 million who were bullied into joining in?

[Gingeletiss]

Of that 2 million can we say 1 million voluntary demonstrators and 1 million who were bullied into joining in?

 

Plus...all the polls I've seen, show that the public support is against the strike.

[um pahars]

Wrong again! Spoke to a young female teacher mid thirties last night, she said that life would be hell at school, if she didn't strike, this was made clear to her. Unions are bully boys, pure and simple.

 

I'm not really sure I would use one or two anecdotes to come to such generalisations, but each to their own.

 

Same advice to Jackanory really, I think she needs to stand up for herself and someone needs to get a grip with the Senior Leadership Team to stamp out these ugly and isolated cases.

[um pahars]

Plus...all the polls I've seen, show that the public support is against the strike.

 

I've seen them split and not conclusive either way. This one had the piublic down as supporting the strike (61%).

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15910621

[Verbal]

Plus...all the polls I've seen, show that the public support is against the strike.

 

Wrong again. Here's the BBC poll, for example, commissioned this week and showing strong support for the strike.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15910621

 

EDIT: Snap!

[trousers]

I dont vote Labour

 

I never said you did.

 

SIGH

[trousers]

Smoked salmon bagel and bucks fizz going down a treat here. Might treat myself to a lamb shank at lunchtime...

[View From The Top]

Wrong again! Spoke to a young female teacher mid thirties last night, she said that life would be hell at school, if she didn't strike, this was made clear to her. Unions are bully boys, pure and simple.

 

Strange how my teacher wife is in today then, no hassle at all, and I'm also not on strike and guess what, no hassle at all.

 

Of course, you could be talking out of you thick @rse as usual.

[um pahars]

Smoked salmon bagel and bucks fizz going down a treat here. Might treat myself to a lamb shank at lunchtime...

 

Pah, what a way to ruin a good champagne.

[Verbal]

Smoked salmon bagel and bucks fizz going down a treat here. Might treat myself to a lamb shank at lunchtime...

 

...cooked over a nice picket line fire. One out, all out, trousers! Well done, comrade!

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Strange how my teacher wife is in today then, no hassle at all, and I'm also not on strike and guess what, no hassle at all.

 

Of course, you could be talking out of you thick @rse as usual.

 

This, my fiance is working today and I'm not - no fuss, no bother.

 

Big turnout in Colchester dune

[View From The Top]

And I've also dropped my 3 kids off at school and their teachers also had no hassle.

 

Couldn't be that the thick Daily Mail brigade are talking bollloxs again?

[Special K]

Of my immediate family (my partner, my children and their partners), four work in the private sector and all have had pay rises this year. My SiL the teacher got a 2.3% rise this year, but of course his pension contributions will rise more than that. Another one works for a Housing Association and hasn't had a pay rise but has had an increase in pension contributions. The one that works for the NHS hasn't had a pay rise but will see an increase in pension contributions. The final family member is self-employed and is doing very well at the moment.

 

So I think you're wrong to say 'virtually all' private sector employees haven't had a pay rise. It seems to me that it's the public sector who haven't had pay rises.

 

In our industry, average salaries were cut about 25% from 2007 to 2010. Small increases have been given in some areas this year, but this is obviously on the reduced salary. Many have had pay freezes or further reductions this year. We have also seen over 500,000 redundancies in that time and very little recruitment. There are still a large number of people who have been out of work for over 3 years. I know of 3 ex colleagues who have been put on notice this week, 2 of whom will probably be made redundant before Christmas. So it's not all rosy and nice as you make out.

[LGTL]

About half of the staff at the school I'm currently placed at are all in, no fuss at all from those who aren't.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Please explain?

 

A guy far far more intelligent and hard working than you or I uses his knowledge to make money, he makes it and spends it paying 20% VAT on those goods enabling the government to pay your wages.

 

If that is wrong what is the alternative that idiots like me should be aware of?

 

Shame his colleagues haven't shown similar levels of intelligence to prevent the financial sector going tits up and having to be bailed out by the Government. Your mate might not be doing quite so well if that hadn't have happened eh?

[Viking Warrior]

I will be interested to see how many of the alleged 2million are actually on strike? The unions have been economic with the truth as to how many of their members actually returned their ballot papers for most unions it was wll below 50% of members who returned their ballot papers GMB 33% Unita nad Unison very similar.

 

So I doubt whether there will be 2 million actually out on strike

 

 

Um Pahars you are being a little unreasonable about Jacknory and co . There are some unsavoury individuals in school that can covertly make someones life a misery. I know i have had to deal with a number of cases over the years.

[Viking Warrior]

Im not sure about England but teachers can retire in Scotland at 55 and 60 . They then retire and come back on the supply list working regularly

[Winnersaint]

When you spend your working days banging on to young people about the importance of attending school and getting qualified, about community values and life not being just about the individual as well as to their parents about not taking them out on holiday during term time and valuing ediucation for what it is. it seems hypocritical to take strike action. So I am in school as are all the other senior staff. No students here so am able to look on here, while I use thetime to catch up on things that get lost in the hurly burly of a normal working day.

[Viking Warrior]

Good to see the Unions can afford thousands of placards. T shirts/other clothing and balloons for their members.

I woonder if that money would have been put to better use to save jobs in the public sector.

 

That is the real concern for public sector workers. if they havent got a job they will not get much of a pension anyway

[CB Saint]

You miss the point, of course. I was talking about the cost of your tax relief at the higher level and how much it costs me as a taxpayer. However, if you abandoned your higher rate tax relief, there would be more money in the pot to fund the public sector schemes (although, the truth is that most of them are actually in credit).

 

As to your second sentence - as a public sector worker I never paid the higher rate of tax. And certainly, on a meagre £4k a year NHS pension, I never will.

 

BTF, I know we don'y see eye to eye on this, but are your seriously suggesting that I should sacrifice higher rate tax relief on my pension contributions, in order to safeguard final salary pensions of the public sector?

 

Iis hard enough to try to get together a decent enough pension even with the tax relief, without making it twice as hard. Have you seen the money purchase annutiy rates? To get your £4000 pension indexed linked, I have to find a pension pot of £100,000. If you then look at some of the public sector final salary schemes and what can be expected to be paid out especially to some of the higher earners, can't you see why the private sector workers resent it so much.

 

Even if they were getting a modest pension of say £20k pa, a worker in a money purchase scheme who have to save between £400 to 500k - that is beyond all but the most highly paid private sector workers.

[um pahars]

The unions have been economic with the truth as to how many of their members actually returned their ballot papers for most unions

 

Don't be so ridiculous, I think you'll find the Law is rather strict on strike ballots and if there were any irregularities then the Employers/Government would have been quick to highlight this (irregularities are quickly seized upon e.g. BA challenged Unite successfuly recently). There are many issues open for debate without taking a Daily Mail scare approach to the argument

 

Um Pahars you are being a little unreasonable about Jacknory and co . There are some unsavoury individuals in school that can covertly make someones life a misery. I know i have had to deal with a number of cases over the years.

 

I'm being deadly serious, in the isolated occasions where bullies exist I do believe the individual has to stand up to them. Additionally they need the support of the management and therefore questions need to be asked of the Senior leadership team at this school.

[bridge too far]

BTF, I know we don'y see eye to eye on this, but are your seriously suggesting that I should sacrifice higher rate tax relief on my pension contributions, in order to safeguard final salary pensions of the public sector?

 

Iis hard enough to try to get together a decent enough pension even with the tax relief, without making it twice as hard. Have you seen the money purchase annutiy rates? To get your £4000 pension indexed linked, I have to find a pension pot of £100,000. If you then look at some of the public sector final salary schemes and what can be expected to be paid out especially to some of the higher earners, can't you see why the private sector workers resent it so much.

 

Even if they were getting a modest pension of say £20k pa, a worker in a money purchase scheme who have to save between £400 to 500k - that is beyond all but the most highly paid private sector workers.

 

I was merely pointing out that taxpayers effectively fund your higher rate of tax relief.

 

You talk about a 'modest' pension of £20K pa. I wish! The AVERAGE public sector pension is c. £4-5K pa. I worked for the NHS for 18 years, much of it at a senior management level. My pension? Just over £4K pa. Imagine what it would have been if I'd been an average NHS worker - say a medical records clerk.

 

You have to remember that the averages can be distorted by the fact that many consultants and doctors also contribute to the NHS scheme and, given their high salaries (I assume you don't disapprove of those) then of course their pensions will be a lot higher.

 

I would remind you that, even as a pensioner, I contribute towards public sector pensions as I still pay income tax.

 

When will the government allow / publish the audit on the affordability of public sector pension schemes I wonder?

[um pahars]

Good to see the Unions can afford thousands of placards. T shirts/other clothing and balloons for their members.

I woonder if that money would have been put to better use to save jobs in the public sector.

 

Talking of a race to the bottom, I think claims like this are leading to a race to the bottom with regards quality of argument. That's something the Daily Mail would come up with. Puerile.

[bridge too far]

Right - off I go to our local march. Even though I'm not affected directly.

 

But I will be if this demonisation and demoralisation of the public services continues.

 

Never mind, Georgie Porgie will get his wish at this rate. Destroy the public services and then hand them over at a knock-down price to his buddies to run at a huge profit for a much lower level of service.