spyinthesky Posted 22 April, 2013 Share Posted 22 April, 2013 Was the figure £25m for the Liebherr family? If so this seems quite reasonable compared to Mohammed al- Fayed at Fulham who, according to the Sunday Times Rich List, converted £212m of loans to equity. Bit of a difference. The Sunday Times reckons Fulham are in a 'healthy position' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted 22 April, 2013 Share Posted 22 April, 2013 Was the figure £25m for the Liebherr family? Thought it was ~£33m.. Still a drop in the ocean compared to the sum Al Fayed is claimed to have converted.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 22 April, 2013 Share Posted 22 April, 2013 That's a heavy question, I might come back to it in the morning. As for the moment I am finally - after Villa's loss - accepting we are safe. But..................... As this is your second thread on ownership in the last 24 hours and I know who you are I am sensing you have some info we could all be interested in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 22 April, 2013 Share Posted 22 April, 2013 Was the figure £25m for the Liebherr family? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17547804 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stepgar Posted 22 April, 2013 Share Posted 22 April, 2013 That's a heavy question, I might come back to it in the morning. As for the moment I am finally - after Villa's loss - accepting we are safe. But..................... As this is your second thread on ownership in the last 24 hours and I know who you are I am sensing you have some info we could all be interested in? Should I be worried about this info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonist Posted 22 April, 2013 Share Posted 22 April, 2013 where has all the equity gone? we need answers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 22 April, 2013 Share Posted 22 April, 2013 That's a heavy question, I might come back to it in the morning. As for the moment I am finally - after Villa's loss - accepting we are safe. But..................... As this is your second thread on ownership in the last 24 hours and I know who you are I am sensing you have some info we could all be interested in? Hold on, it took a team losing a game they were 14/1 to win in the first place for you to decide Saints were safe ? That actually had a completely negligible impact on Saints' chances of relegation ? Perception is a strange thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky morris Posted 22 April, 2013 Share Posted 22 April, 2013 Equity sits at the bottom of the capital structure if we go bump. Debt comes in various styles, but implies repayment & a coupon or level of interest payable to the owner of the debt. IMHO - the switch to equity is a positive thing for the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Debt to equity is basically tax avoidance. Reasonable, fair and totally acceptable tax avoidance (in all cases, not just Saints), but that's what it amounts to. It's also usually a sign of commitment to the enterprise from the equity owners. In the case of the Liebherrs, it's essntially a tax write off. But the BVI loan is still a curiousity.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 (edited) Debt to equity is basically tax avoidance. Reasonable, fair and totally acceptable tax avoidance (in all cases, not just Saints), but that's what it amounts to. It's also usually a sign of commitment to the enterprise from the equity owners. In the case of the Liebherrs, it's essntially a tax write off. But the BVI loan is still a curiousity.... BVI loan was explained, it is better to have a debt and right that off against tax than use your own money that can earn interest, which although also you have to pay tax on but would be smaller than the tax recoverable on a 13 million loan. (if that was the figure) Its all tax avoidance NC is not a banker for nothing NB see my location as well Edited 23 April, 2013 by PhilippineSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 BVI loan was explained, it is better to have a debt and right that off against tax than use your own money that can earn interest, which although also you have to pay tax on but would be smaller than the tax recoverable on a 13 million loan. (if that was the figure) Its all tax avoidance NC is not a banker for nothing NB see my location as well That's not very likely. You are usually better to use your own money, if you have any available, than to borrow from the BVI. Your own investments may earn interest, of course, but so does a loan. In the same way a normal person with £5,000 in cash wouldn't tend to notch up a credit card debt, a billionaire with huge cash to spare wouldn't usually leverage a BVI loan against a piece of equity. There may be a reason - but it's not about variable interest rates. If the BVI are willing to loan the Liebherr family money at, say, 3% and the Liebherrs are making over 3% on all their cash, then the Liebherrs should borrow many hundreds of millions from the BVI and just write a philanthropic cheque to Southampton FC themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 That's not very likely. You are usually better to use your own money, if you have any available, than to borrow from the BVI. Your own investments may earn interest, of course, but so does a loan. In the same way a normal person with £5,000 in cash wouldn't tend to notch up a credit card debt, a billionaire with huge cash to spare wouldn't usually leverage a BVI loan against a piece of equity. There may be a reason - but it's not about variable interest rates. If the BVI are willing to loan the Liebherr family money at, say, 3% and the Liebherrs are making over 3% on all their cash, then the Liebherrs should borrow many hundreds of millions from the BVI and just write a philanthropic cheque to Southampton FC themselves. What I said was the tax that you can right off against a big loan is bigger than the tax you would pay on the interest of you own money similar in size therefore it makes sense. As long as you have arranged the interest rates so you do not pay more than you are saving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 What I said was the tax that you can right off against a big loan is bigger than the tax you would pay on the interest of you own money similar in size therefore it makes sense. As long as you have arranged the interest rates so you do not pay more than you are saving. If the Liebherr money is a loan, we have a problem. A big problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 If the Liebherr money is a loan, we have a problem. A big problem. I think you are mistaken again the Liebherr money was converted to Equity its in the club, BVI is a loan for tax reasons Simple isn't it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 (edited) I think you are mistaken again the Liebherr money was converted to Equity its in the club, BVI is a loan for tax reasons Simple isn't it No. The BVI loan would be a very odd way to leverage £30m from c. £5,000,000,000 of available capital assets. The loan could be set against the Liebherrs' capital with exactly the same tax implications, and no need to use a loan at all from the British Virgin Islands. Edited 23 April, 2013 by SaintBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Nobody apart from you is talking about leveraging 30 M from 5 B The loan converted to equity has tax implications of course but as this was completed before the BVI loan what has it to do with this point? the 13 m BVI loan (Alleged) also has tax implications which would be better to use that to buy a player than use the 13 m in your own bank as the loan and interest can be written off against tax and possibly write the whole thing off as an asset to the company over time as the player is now an asset and can be down written every year for tax purposes. Unless of course you sell him for more than you bought him then you may have to pay something on the extra income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 (edited) Nobody apart from you is talking about leveraging 30 M from 5 B The loan converted to equity has tax implications of course but as this was completed before the BVI loan what has it to do with this point? the 13 m BVI loan (Alleged) also has tax implications which would be better to use that to buy a player than use the 13 m in your own bank as the loan and interest can be written off against tax and possibly write the whole thing off as an asset to the company over time as the player is now an asset and can be down written every year for tax purposes. Unless of course you sell him for more than you bought him then you may have to pay something on the extra income. Given on the "WBA build up thread" you are unable to distinguish between the numbers 0, 0.5 and 1, I'm inclined to treat your tax advice with considerable scepticism. Or is the £13m BVI loan the "equivalent" of guaranteed riches for ever? To load the company with debt and then write off for equity is close to standard procedure. But it would be unusual behaviour if you're highly liquid and very rich to actually borrow this money rather than provide it from your portfolio. If the Liebherrs can borrow from the BVI at X% and make X+% from such loans, this would be mildly surprising. To use Southampton Football Club as your financial vehicle to facilitate such a loan - if you're worth £5bn - would be very surprising. Not utterly inconceivable. But definitely eyebrow-raising. Edited 23 April, 2013 by SaintBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Given on the "WBA build up thread" you are unable to distinguish between the numbers 0, 0.5 and 1, I'm inclined to treat your tax advice with considerable scepticism. Or is the £13m BVI loan the "equivalent" of guaranteed riches for ever? To load the company with debt and then write off for equity is close to standard procedure. But it would be unusual behaviour if you're highly liquid and very rich to actually borrow this money rather than provide it from your portfolio. If the Liebherrs can borrow from the BVI at X% and make X+% from such loans, this would be mildly surprising. To use Southampton Football Club as your financial vehicle to facilitate such a loan - if you're worth £5bn - would be very surprising. Not utterly inconceivable. But definitely eyebrow-raising. The other point that should possibly be made at this point ML was never worth 5 B The company (Southampton Football club) is working of its own company working capital not the full assets of ML's estate and other holding company's so it would make a little more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 a normal person with £5,000 in cash wouldn't tend to notch up a credit card debt, Conclusive proof right there that I'm not normal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Thought the BVI loan was £3m? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Conclusive proof right there that I'm not normal... Oops. What you said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 The bvi loan has no tax implications for saints except for the interest payments that can be set off against corporation tax. This would be the case irrespective of where the loan came from. There are tax benefits for the lender, who will probably receive the interest payments tax free. The only real benefit for the loan to equity swap is so sfc are in a better position when the FIFA fair play regs come in. Perhaps it was a preemptive move, just in case FIFA decided to ban the practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsk Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Conclusive proof right there that I'm not normal... Nor me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Conclusive proof right there that I'm not normal... Two points... You're not normal anyway ;-) and it looks like there are others that are wasting money as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Two points... You're not normal anyway ;-) and it looks like there are others that are wasting money as well (a) fair point (b) How can transferring "debt" to a 0% credit card be less efficient than paying it off with my "rainy day" savings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 My guess would be that the rumoured nest egg from ML to be used to push on once we reach the PL was tied up in some sort of fixed term deal to earn a good rate of interest. Thanks to that pesky NA we got there quicker than expected so money still tied up. It would probably be cheaper to borrow money in the short term (knowing funds were held to cover it but not readily accessible) than to break terms of the fixed deposit resulting not only in a loss of interest but also a penalty, All perfectly normal and sensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackanorySFC Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Thought the BVI loan was £3m? According to the Swiss Ramble's (excellent and extremely reliable source of financial football info') twitter analysis of our latest finance figures we released last month it was for £3.8m. Far lower than anyone thought it was for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 (a) fair point (b) How can transferring "debt" to a 0% credit card be less efficient than paying it off with my "rainy day" savings? A) ta B) it's ok if you pay of the balance when due and the rate is no longer 0%, something you didn't elude to doing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 23 April, 2013 Author Share Posted 23 April, 2013 That's a heavy question, I might come back to it in the morning. As for the moment I am finally - after Villa's loss - accepting we are safe. But..................... As this is your second thread on ownership in the last 24 hours and I know who you are I am sensing you have some info we could all be interested in? FF Please don't read anything into this. Had just finished reading the Sunday Rich List and saw the piece on old Mo and Fulham and presumed (rightly or wrongly) that our own transfer of debt to equity could be a positive and was worthy of some debate. However if I won a substantial amount of money on the Euromillions, a bid for the club could be in the offing. That said it all seems to be moving along relatively smoothly at the moment and perhaps my future Lottery win might better be invested in maximising the fans enjoyment of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 23 April, 2013 Share Posted 23 April, 2013 FF Please don't read anything into this. Had just finished reading the Sunday Rich List and saw the piece on old Mo and Fulham and presumed (rightly or wrongly) that our own transfer of debt to equity could be a positive and was worthy of some debate. However if I won a substantial amount of money on the Euromillions, a bid for the club could be in the offing. That said it all seems to be moving along relatively smoothly at the moment and perhaps my future Lottery win might better be invested in maximising the fans enjoyment of games. Perhaps you could fund our much needed stadium expansion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 23 April, 2013 Author Share Posted 23 April, 2013 Perhaps you could fund our much needed stadium expansion? Turks When I am in 'Day Dream' mode and I am contemplating how I would deal with the record £150m Euro Lottery windfall, helping fund a stadium expansion is a consideration but I have other plans, relating to the football club and the community, which would take precedence. My initial thought would be how best to preserve anonymity so I could get on with selected projects generally without having to deal with all the pressures a big fortune will undoubtedly bring. I have most of the details worked out. All it needs is for the numbers to come out I can assure you now that people around and about the football club and the area will benefit. Nothing will be left for the Govt to grab back in Inheritance Tax and the like I know you like looking good I promise to buy you a hand made suit from a tailor of your choice, possibly with a subtle red and white striped silk lining!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now