Anyone taken their kids out of term time since the new law?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

This is an extremely tenuous argument. I know several teachers and they work exceptionally hard and long hours during term time. Things like marking and lesson planning and all sorts outside of classroom time mean they work far more than 40 or 37.5 hours a week, and so having been someone who used this argument before, I now know better... especially bearing in mind that even in those 13 weeks off, there is usually a fair bit of time that is used to prepare classrooms and lesson plans for the forthcoming term.

 

I'm not saying teachers do not work hard, not for one minute, as they clearly do work very hard and it is a very stressful job.

 

I do have a problem with teachers, obviously not all, but a lot that I personally have come across - that constantly moan about marking and planning. Guess what, it's part of your job as a teacher. Surely you knew about this when you started.

 

I have a lot of respect for teachers, they do an invaluable job, and it's certainly one I could not do. But the behaviour of a lot of teachers (again, my experience, I'm sure not ALL are like this) if anyone dares suggest that actually there are much worse off people than them is pathetic.

 

Yes, they work hard, long hours (by this, longer than the 9-3 some ignorant people may think) but this still only puts them on a par with many other people. And they may have to work into their 'holidays' - i.e. still more time off than most people get off.

 

But, for all the hardships they complain about, every teacher I know that is my age earns a lot more than I do (in the private sector) and more than most other qualified people in the public sector (doctors and dentists obvious exceptions). Teaching also has aa pretty good career progression path in place for those that want that. And with the govt's ring-fencing of Education fencing, they have faced a lot less uncertainty than many of their less fortunate public sector colleagues.

 

Basically, I find myself often disliking teachers more now than when I was at school. Just a little heads up, you don't have a monopoly on long hours, low pay and crap conditions.

[buctootim]

Oh lord. Don't tell a teacher that they have more holidays than most.

 

Than almost anyone else more like. Currently c10 million parents have to use up a day of their very limited holidays to care for children whose education is disrupted for a day instead of a few hundred thousand teachers undergoing training whilst the children are on holiday as part of their 13 weeks holiday. Put the teachers on two weeks training during the Summer holidays and they'd still have 11 weeks.

[LGTL]

I just can't believe it has taken 48 posts for someone to mention the holidays.

[sotonjoe]

I'm not saying teachers do not work hard, not for one minute, as they clearly do work very hard and it is a very stressful job.

 

I do have a problem with teachers, obviously not all, but a lot that I personally have come across - that constantly moan about marking and planning. Guess what, it's part of your job as a teacher. Surely you knew about this when you started.

 

I have a lot of respect for teachers, they do an invaluable job, and it's certainly one I could not do. But the behaviour of a lot of teachers (again, my experience, I'm sure not ALL are like this) if anyone dares suggest that actually there are much worse off people than them is pathetic.

 

Yes, they work hard, long hours (by this, longer than the 9-3 some ignorant people may think) but this still only puts them on a par with many other people. And they may have to work into their 'holidays' - i.e. still more time off than most people get off.

 

But, for all the hardships they complain about, every teacher I know that is my age earns a lot more than I do (in the private sector) and more than most other qualified people in the public sector (doctors and dentists obvious exceptions). Teaching also has aa pretty good career progression path in place for those that want that. And with the govt's ring-fencing of Education fencing, they have faced a lot less uncertainty than many of their less fortunate public sector colleagues.

 

Basically, I find myself often disliking teachers more now than when I was at school. Just a little heads up, you don't have a monopoly on long hours, low pay and crap conditions.

 

Are you still upset that you didn't get enough red ticks at school?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[View From The Top]

I just can't believe it has taken 48 posts for someone to mention the holidays.

 

It's because their life choices haven't turn out as well as they liked they resent others.

[Huffton]

It's because their life choices haven't turn out as well as they liked they resent others.

 

[Whitey Grandad]

Than almost anyone else more like. Currently c10 million parents have to use up a day of their very limited holidays to care for children whose education is disrupted for a day instead of a few hundred thousand teachers undergoing training whilst the children are on holiday as part of their 13 weeks holiday. Put the teachers on two weeks training during the Summer holidays and they'd still have 11 weeks.

 

How do their holidays compare with MPs?

[aintforever]

Teaching is the default career for someone who graduates then realises their degree is not actually relevant to many jobs.

[buctootim]

How do their holidays compare with MPs?

 

I'm not sure either teachers or MPs would appreciate that comparison.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm not sure either teachers or MPs would appreciate that comparison.

 

You're right, there's no comparison. Teachers haven't asked for an 11% pay rise.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Teaching is the default career for someone who graduates then realises their degree is not actually relevant to many jobs.

 

I don't think that is entirely fair.

 

There are plenty who set out to go into teaching, and plenty of those are exceptionally good teachers.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Not entirely fair no, but definitely true on occasions.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Not entirely fair no, but definitely true on occasions.

 

It was something that was suggested to me after I graduated and struggled to find a job/work out what I wanted to do.

 

Was never really an option though, I would have been awful and dragged down the profession as a whole.

 

As I said, they (the vast majority anyway) do a great job, and I certainly couldn't do it. But, please just stop moaning about marking!

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Are you still upset that you didn't get enough red ticks at school?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I was a geek, got plenty of them

[Turkish]

This is an extremely tenuous argument. I know several teachers and they work exceptionally hard and long hours during term time. Things like marking and lesson planning and all sorts outside of classroom time mean they work far more than 40 or 37.5 hours a week, and so having been someone who used this argument before, I now know better... especially bearing in mind that even in those 13 weeks off, there is usually a fair bit of time that is used to prepare classrooms and lesson plans for the forthcoming term.

 

the only people that work 37.5 or 40 hours a week these days are clock watchers and civil servants. Most of my team work very, very hard travelling all over the country, early mornings and late finishes often replying to emails at 6 in the morning or 11pm at night. Most of the year we are away from home at least one night a week. December when everyone else is on wind down we are out entertaining our customers a couple of nights a week all over the country, people might say "ahh but you're just out on the p*ss" but the you're not as are still working, have to remain professional and represent the company (as well as ensuring the devious buggers dont take the p*ss on the expenses and order dozens of rounds of shots) it's not bad work but it's not like you're out with your mates.

 

Cue hilarious paper sales man gags.

[View From The Top]

Not entirely fair no, but definitely true on occasions.

 

I'd agree with that in the case of some arts degrees but only a dumb f**k would think anyone with a good maths or science degree isn't teaching simply because they want to.

 

Most teachers I know have always wanted to do the job or have re-trained after redundancy.

 

The true problem is that aren't enough OFSTED outstanding teachers willing to go to work in the really sh*t schools thus the conveyor belt of poor staff or NQT's get churned through.

 

Most of the middle class will have kids at Good or Outstanding schools and teachers only want to leave them for promotions. By the time teachers have really learnt their trade and are consistently Good or Outstanding they no longer want to change the world and battle with all the issues in failing schools. Even I've turned the opportunity down in the last year and I've always enjoyed the challenge in the past.

 

It's an issue and I'm not sure how we solve it.

[buctootim]

The true problem is that aren't enough OFSTED outstanding teachers willing to go to work in the really sh*t schools thus the conveyor belt of poor staff or NQT's get churned through.

 

Most of the middle class will have kids at Good or Outstanding schools and teachers only want to leave them for promotions. By the time teachers have really learnt their trade and are consistently Good or Outstanding they no longer want to change the world and battle with all the issues in failing schools. Even I've turned the opportunity down in the last year and I've always enjoyed the challenge in the past.

 

It's an issue and I'm not sure how we solve it.

 

 

Exactly that. I'm not sure what the solution is, apart from paying good teachers more to work in **** schools. Two teachers Ive know for 20 odd years since qualification started off being very socially committed and wanting to work in sink estate schools - but theres only so many years of crowd control you can take. Both now work in affluent village schools, feeling very slightly guilty, but a lot happier.

[Tokyo-Saint]

In Japan I believe the schools in the cities have a higher budget than the rural schools, this means that in general, they have the better teachers, facilities etc and are better schools. Not sure this is a better idea as it pushes more people to the cities, just saying that the reverse is true over there.

 

Teachers are also expected to work during much of the holidays, do training, lesson planning, mark course work etc during this time. Couldn't see that going down well here.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

In Japan I believe the schools in the cities have a higher budget than the rural schools, this means that in general, they have the better teachers, facilities etc and are better schools. Not sure this is a better idea as it pushes more people to the cities, just saying that the reverse is true over there.

 

Teachers are also expected to work during much of the holidays, do training, lesson planning, mark course work etc during this time. Couldn't see that going down well here.

 

Teachers: "You expect us to do marking?!?!? :hunt: "

[View From The Top]

In Japan I believe the schools in the cities have a higher budget than the rural schools, this means that in general, they have the better teachers, facilities etc and are better schools. Not sure this is a better idea as it pushes more people to the cities, just saying that the reverse is true over there.

 

Teachers are also expected to work during much of the holidays, do training, lesson planning, mark course work etc during this time. Couldn't see that going down well here.

 

The Outstanding ones do. As well as run school trips, school teams etc. Certainly happens in our house (mainly the missus). I'm in a week of Easter for GCSE sessions and go back in the summer a week before the students. Don't have to do it, but I do it because my students deserve my best efforts.

 

Plenty like me but it's easier to slag teachers off.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Wasn't slagging anyone off, just saying how the system is somewhere else. One thing is true, the teachers over there get a hell of a lot more support from the parents over there. If you brought in a parent because of some disciplinary situation, 9/10 you would get immediate action and results. In my experience over here, it seems the parents are worse than the kids and it is easy to see why some kids are as they are.

[PhilippineSaint]

I used to moan at my Brother and his wife who are both teachers and their 11 weeks off a year plus weekends. whilst I was getting 2 weeks and the public holidays.

 

Then I started working offshore 4 weeks work 3 and half weeks holiday due to travel plus more money than they would ever see.

 

They began moaning at me, until I pointed out I had worked nearly 30 years ever only getting 2 weeks off and any training was carried out in my off time, mostly unpaid. just getting back my paid due's they appear to have reluctantly agreed to my train of thought.

 

Although I could not imagine going back to any job on a monday to friday rotation with weekends off.

[whelk]

the only people that work 37.5 or 40 hours a week these days are clock watchers and civil servants. Most of my team work very, very hard travelling all over the country, early mornings and late finishes often replying to emails at 6 in the morning or 11pm at night. Most of the year we are away from home at least one night a week. December when everyone else is on wind down we are out entertaining our customers a couple of nights a week all over the country, people might say "ahh but you're just out on the p*ss" but the you're not as are still working, have to remain professional and represent the company (as well as ensuring the devious buggers dont take the p*ss on the expenses and order dozens of rounds of shots) it's not bad work but it's not like you're out with your mates.

 

Cue hilarious paper sales man gags.

 

Is this a good thing though? One could argue that the country might be harder working (in terms of hours with most of Europe) but are we happier? I have seen many friend and colleagues bury themselves into their work at expense of their home life and relationships. Is all too easy to obsess and get validation from being valued at work.and clearly there is desire to become successful and richer in most of us but seen so many who are clearly not happier and more contented.

A tough balance. Often work cultures perpetuate this as well so staff feel weak if they don't put in the hours and becomes a competition to see who can stay the latest.

 

No-one ever said on their deathbed 'I wished I worked harder' (I don't this for a fact but is unlikely).

I'm off to enjoy the scent of a flower and look a baby's smiling face. Actually that is not practical as it is 4.20 am and nearly time to get up for work. And must remember to leave early today to see my daughter in her Christmas performance.

Edited 18 December, 2013 by whelk

[Turkish]

Is this a good thing though? One could argue that the country might be harder working (in terms of hours with most of Europe) but are we happier? I have seen many friend and colleagues bury themselves into their work at expense of their home life and relationships. Is all too easy to obsess and get validation from being valued at work.and clearly there is desire to become successful and richer in most of us but seen so many who are clearly not happier and more contented.

A tough balance. Often work cultures perpetuate this as well so staff feel weak if they don't put in the hours and becomes a competition to see who can stay the latest.

 

No-one ever said on their deathbed 'I wished I worked harder' (I don't this for a fact but is unlikely).

I'm off to enjoy the scent of a flower and look a baby's smiling face. Actually that is not practical as it is 4.20 am and nearly time to get up for work. And must remember to leave early today to see my daughter in her Christmas performance.

 

Never said it was. Certainly since becoming a dad I don't want to be away from home at all anymore, but that's the nature of the world we live in these days. People have to work hard and put the hours in or you'll struggle both financially and career wise. We'd all love to work the bare minimum but the reality is that for most this isn't an option.

 

Anyway the overall point being teachers don't have a bad deal when you take into account wages + holiday + benefits. Many do a great a job but let's not make out they do it for the minimum wage, it's relatively well paid, they get a decent amount of holiday and good benefits. Yes many work long hours but so do most people who have a career these days.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Turks speaks sense.

[buctootim]

Turks speaks sense.

 

I know! I was ****ing amazed too.

[Smirking_Saint]

the only people that work 37.5 or 40 hours a week these days are clock watchers and civil servants. Most of my team work very, very hard travelling all over the country, early mornings and late finishes often replying to emails at 6 in the morning or 11pm at night. Most of the year we are away from home at least one night a week. December when everyone else is on wind down we are out entertaining our customers a couple of nights a week all over the country, people might say "ahh but you're just out on the p*ss" but the you're not as are still working, have to remain professional and represent the company (as well as ensuring the devious buggers dont take the p*ss on the expenses and order dozens of rounds of shots) it's not bad work but it's not like you're out with your mates.

 

Cue hilarious paper sales man gags.

 

 

[warsash saint]

Surely in different regions staggered holidays to different weeks of the year, the cost of holidays would even out somewhat ?

[Tokyo-Saint]

This was on the radio before. I think the argument against it was that it would be harder to know when kids were skiving off if all the schools had different holiday times.

[moonraker]

I find this all very sad. As parents we are always being told we have to work with schools and support them, something I have always done having put 6 children through the system (2 still in it). I have in the past taken my children out of school, with approval, for special holidays with Grandparents and Relatives. I like the vast majority of parents are responsible and consider the effect on our children. In my experience most school trips for things other than genuine curriculum field trips are taken during term time i.e. skiing and other sport which seems to against the reason for this rule. Additionally I am involved with youth organisation that has a standard letter for schools for children who wish to attend the organisations courses and these are nearly always approved. The worst case I have heard of is a lady who was refused permission and fined for requesting and being refused permission to take her children out of school to attend her wedding!!!!

My point is that family holidays are very important for family cohesion and happiness and if the choice is between taking your children out of school or no holiday then I would vote for the holiday everytime.

 

PS I do not blame teachers, this is Gove and strangely possible aaided and abetted by the NUT nutjobs. Lets face it the tory leadership kids go to fee paying schools it dosnt affect them, they have much longer holidays than state school children and therfore benefit from the cheaper deals.

Edited 18 December, 2013 by moonraker

[View From The Top]

Surely in different regions staggered holidays to different weeks of the year, the cost of holidays would even out somewhat ?

 

It happens now to some extent.

[tpbury]

I'm interested in this subject:

1) My parents were both teachers (from the 60s to the 00s - ie lifelong career teachers)

2) We went on 3 week holidays in Europe in the summer and camping at Easter and visiting family at Christmas and maybe Whitsun - saw many museums and art galleries I didn't appreciate at the time)

3) They educated me by default, my older siblings educated me also

4) It was frickin good having teachers as parents

5) The theory of teaching has changed as most teachers in the last 20 years are ill educated and will use iPads etc as default 'handouts'

6) Passionate 'educators' still exist, and they are good at their job

7) Taking your kids out of school is not a crime. Unless you take them out to make your life easy. Let them enjoy themselves, but educate them yourself in social skills. (I have taken mine out of school a number of times and they've had a great time, but teaching them about working together as a family in that holiday period is the best education a kid needs. Even when the parents are separated :-))

[Whitey Grandad]

Surely in different regions staggered holidays to different weeks of the year, the cost of holidays would even out somewhat ?

 

In Holland I believe different regions have different holiday dates and these rotate round so everybody gets a bit of everything.

[TheCholulaKid]

The Outstanding ones do. As well as run school trips, school teams etc. Certainly happens in our house (mainly the missus). I'm in a week of Easter for GCSE sessions and go back in the summer a week before the students. Don't have to do it, but I do it because my students deserve my best efforts.

 

Plenty like me but it's easier to slag teachers off.

 

This.

 

There are 10 people in my department in a medium-sized secondary school. With the exception of one teacher (who isn't quite a 9-3er), everyone else in my department does roughly the same hours as me. Normally in by 7.30 and stay til 6 every night except Friday. I'm fortunate in living only 5 mins from school. Get in, do stuff. Normally work 7.30-9pm. Weekends, in school Saturday morning - usually half day work at home on Sunday. Of the five days off during half term I work at least 3 of them. Christmas and Easter (2 weeks each) working at least a week of each. Summer (6 weeks) four weeks off (****ing lovely) topped and tailed with a week of work. No complaints, I teach a great subject and love my job. It's hard work but it's reasonably well paid and (the clincher) I get to spend all the school holidays with my kids.

 

All the people who say teachers moan about this, that and the other - ********. This is the 3rd school I've worked in and everyone knows the deal with marking, planning etc and works ****ing hard. What teachers DO moan about is successive governments with agendas ****ing changing everything every five minutes. Imagine every year being told to do your job differently (but not better, crucially, because they don't know what 'better' is), you make the changes and then the following year get told to change your practice again. Without having the opportunity to embed good practice and, importantly, go through several cycles so you can iron out creases and make your teaching consistently outstanding. All the while the people that really matter (your kids) suffer because they're being used as guinea pigs by governments who consistently ignore educational research in favour of half baked ideas with no firm scientific grounding. That's why teachers moan...

 

..it's been a long term!