Patrick Bateman Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 to be honest, the skin colour of managers around now never really registered until now...I saw what I thought was a good/bad manager. NOT skin colour..........!!! Exactly this. Like most others, I honestly don't think "oh, he's a good black manager" whether at football, at work, in a shop, anywhere! It's just ridiculous. Okay, there are still some prejudice people who will never change their views, but I'd wager 99.9% of people, if not 99.99% of people, don't even think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 You can't be successful without being given decent chance in the first place. We all know Fergie got plenty of time at Man U. Anyway, no manager has the golden formula anyway bar a very select few. Anybody that needs to be "given" something in order to succeed will fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 Anybody that needs to be "given" something in order to succeed will fail. Wrong thread. You should be over on the General Election one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 As I understand the Rooney Rule, it only requires certain minorities to be interviewed. Not be offered the job. What's the problem? Are those extra couple of hours going to sink the club? If they are not the best candidate they won't get hired so then what's the harm. It's about opening people's minds to other possibilities they may have (subconsciously) ruled out. In time the likelihood is someone will get hired that would not have been considered under the current status quo. Call me a lefty liberal wooly tree-hugging hipster if you want, but I really don't see the issue with it. The only people who should feel threatened by it are those less qualified who are worried the competition will get stronger...if so, tough sh1t! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 (edited) As I understand the Rooney Rule, it only requires certain minorities to be interviewed. Not be offered the job. What's the problem? Are those extra couple of hours going to sink the club? If they are not the best candidate they won't get hired so then what's the harm. It's about opening people's minds to other possibilities they may have (subconsciously) ruled out. In time the likelihood is someone will get hired that would not have been considered under the current status quo. Call me a lefty liberal wooly tree-hugging hipster if you want, but I really don't see the issue with it. The only people who should feel threatened by it are those less qualified who are worried the competition will get stronger...if so, tough sh1t! What about the non black managers who aren't given the opportunity to have an interview? How is that fair? I heard there is a shortage of Latino managers. There is almost no Asian managers either and no women in the men's game. Why should black men get an interview when other ethnicities and genders are passed over? Edited 2 April, 2015 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 2 April, 2015 (edited) As I understand the Rooney Rule, it only requires certain minorities to be interviewed. Not be offered the job. What's the problem? Are those extra couple of hours going to sink the club? If they are not the best candidate they won't get hired so then what's the harm. It's about opening people's minds to other possibilities they may have (subconsciously) ruled out. In time the likelihood is someone will get hired that would not have been considered under the current status quo. Call me a lefty liberal wooly tree-hugging hipster if you want, but I really don't see the issue with it. The only people who should feel threatened by it are those less qualified who are worried the competition will get stronger...if so, tough sh1t! If Pelligrini gets fired from Man city and the applicants to replace him are Klopp, Biesla, guardiola and Simeone, what is the point of interviewing Paul Ince because a rule says you have to? It's an absolutely pointless and patronising rule unless there are a number of suitable candidates of the skin colour or ethnicity Edited 2 April, 2015 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 Hope Powell will be v.busy cos she can cover the black, gay & woman minorities in one brief interview. She should be included on every shortlist IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 What about the non black managers who aren't given the opportunity to have an interview? How is that fair? I heard there is a shortage of Latino managers. There is almost no Asian managers either and no women in the men's game. Why should black men get an interview when other ethnicities and genders are passed over? If Pelligrini gets fired from Man city and the applicants to replace him are Klopp, Biesla, guardiola and Simeone, what is the point of interviewing Paul Ince because a rule says you have to? It's an absolutely pointless and patronising rule unless there are a number of suitable candidates of the skin colour or ethnicity But I honestly don't see what the problem is. It's, what, an hour out of their day? And who knows one day it may actually lead to a hire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 But I honestly don't see what the problem is. It's, what, an hour out of their day? And who knows one day it may actually lead to a hire. So are we giving an hour for the asian manager? The female one? The Latino one? The gay one? The short one? Why is race being seen as the divider here? The Rooney rule is more suitable in America because firstly they have a much larger black population and secondly they had an awful lot of well qualified black managers to choose from. Can football say the same? What they need to do is get a load of well qualified black managers and then see if the amount of black managers in employment is still low. I strongly suspect it wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 2 April, 2015 But I honestly don't see what the problem is. It's, what, an hour out of their day? And who knows one day it may actually lead to a hire. Apart from anything else it's patronising to black people. However If you can't See how ridiculous it is that you'll have black managers or ex players driving all over the country for jobs they have no chance of getting then that's fair enough pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 Hope Powell will be v.busy cos she can cover the black, gay & woman minorities in one brief interview. She should be included on every shortlist IMO And disability cause of her blindness. Bear is right though, if I was a racist like Dave Roberts or Jason Roberts, I would just interview John Barnes, Paul Ince and Ian Wright then give whoever I wanted the job. No court in the land could say you overlooked a better candidate because of their race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 2 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 2 April, 2015 (edited) So are we giving an hour for the asian manager? The female one? The Latino one? The gay one? The short one? Why is race being seen as the divider here? The Rooney rule is more suitable in America because firstly they have a much larger black population and secondly they had an awful lot of well qualified black managers to choose from. Can football say the same? What they need to do is get a load of well qualified black managers and then see if the amount of black managers in employment is still low. I strongly suspect it wouldn't be. Spot on. If there were 5 or 6 more Chris Houghtons then there wouldn't be this issue. He's decent enough manager and a good guy. However the likes of Paul Ince and john Barnes have got decent jobs and failed at them. Instead of considering the problem might be them they blame their skin colour and other people back then up, it really does beggar belief at times. Then Sol Campbell ranting he should have England Captain but wasn't because he's black, get over yourselves FFS Edited 2 April, 2015 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 Anybody that needs to be "given" something in order to succeed will fail. Yes that's what my Dad told me when I asked for some breakfast as a kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 I'm surprised there are not more women coaches because women are naturally disposed to identify bros flaws & provide suggestions for improvement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 I'm surprised there are not more women coaches because women are naturally disposed to identify bros flaws & provide suggestions for improvement I'm surprised there are so many male coaches given men are naturally disposed to be incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 2 April, 2015 Share Posted 2 April, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 Sol Campbell questioned Greg Dyke on why Gary Neville appears to be fast tracked through the top coaching roles in the FA. Dyke talked about his achievements within the game domestically and internationally and how he has the aptitude to the role etc and how it is NOTHING to do with skin colour. Sol Campbell argued that he should have been him Greg Dyke asked why He said it was because he is Sol Campbell..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 Strange that Ryan Giggs has been omitted from this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 Strange that Ryan Giggs has been omitted from this discussion. What one of arguably the best players this league's seen? One of Utd's best ever players? That may be more of a factor. Are you saying that if Ryan Giggs was black, he wouldn't have got the coaching job? I don't see Scholes at Utd anymore, or the Nevilles or Butt... Chris Ramsey now banging the same drum. I wish someone in the media would have the balls to stand up and ask some pertinent questions when this crops up in interviews. It seems you can't without being labelled a racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 April, 2015 Author Share Posted 3 April, 2015 Sol Campbell questioned Greg Dyke on why Gary Neville appears to be fast tracked through the top coaching roles in the FA. Dyke talked about his achievements within the game domestically and internationally and how he has the aptitude to the role etc and how it is NOTHING to do with skin colour. Sol Campbell argued that he should have been him Greg Dyke asked why He said it was because he is Sol Campbell..... Greg Dyke should have asked him given his track record how be could be confident if he was in the role how long would it be before he did a runner when something happened he didn't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 "But I am Sol Campbell" http://fusion.net/story/111366/but-i-am-sol-campbell/ Yes you are, and you're a special lad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 "But I am Sol Campbell" http://fusion.net/story/111366/but-i-am-sol-campbell/ Yes you are, and you're a special lad. That is hilarious, thanks for sharing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 That is hilarious, thanks for sharing! I'm looking forward to its application in Sol's planned political career. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/sol-campbells-transfer-to-the-tories-could-be-what-the-party-needs-to-defend-millionaires-from-the-dreaded-mansion-tax-9804874.html Rumours abound that he'd like to be a Conservative MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 I'm looking forward to its application in Sol's planned political career. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/sol-campbells-transfer-to-the-tories-could-be-what-the-party-needs-to-defend-millionaires-from-the-dreaded-mansion-tax-9804874.html Rumours abound that he'd like to be a Conservative MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 But he is Sol Campbell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 I'm Sol Campbell and so is my wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 3 April, 2015 Share Posted 3 April, 2015 Je suis Sol Campbell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 I'm starting to think you guys don't really understand the Rooney Rule... So are we giving an hour for the asian manager? The female one? The Latino one? The gay one? The short one? Why is race being seen as the divider here? The Rooney rule is more suitable in America because firstly they have a much larger black population and secondly they had an awful lot of well qualified black managers to choose from. Can football say the same? What they need to do is get a load of well qualified black managers and then see if the amount of black managers in employment is still low. I strongly suspect it wouldn't be. Yes, hypo, I'm pretty sure Latinos and Asians are also considered minorities in the UK so would fall under it. Possibly women too, in the context of football - depends how it would be written. Only you have decided it is specifically for black men. Apart from anything else it's patronising to black people. However If you can't See how ridiculous it is that you'll have black managers or ex players driving all over the country for jobs they have no chance of getting then that's fair enough pal. Your biggest problem with it is the petrol costs of the trip? Is that it? I like you Turkish, I enjoy reading your posts and you often brutally expose the stupidity of others' posts. However this is a pretty silly line of reasoning. You do realise the Rooney Rule does not compel a black manager to apply for a job he doesn't want, or attend an interview he does not want to go to? If such a manager genuinely thinks he has a chance at a post that interests him (or her, I'll stick with him for ease) then he is at liberty to accept any interview offered to him. Otherwise he can decide not to waste his time. I do accept it's a sensitive subject and not a simple black and white (pun genuinely not intended, for once). It does make me uncomfortable on one level that any kind of affirmative action is being proposed, when the utopia is that race is not a differential in anyone's minds. But there does seem to be a case that very few managers are from minorities, and this seems a very benign way of attempting to remove any barriers that may be there. It's one of those policies that probably won't yield immediate results, and it will be very easy to point to an isolated example where it seems unnecessary (you have already imagined such hypotheticals for me) but seems on balance to be a step in the right direction with no real downside. More minorities will get interviews, perhaps more minorities will be hired as coaches, perhaps not. But at least then we'll know it wasn't due to unconscious biases against them based on racial preconceptions. And what's the downside? A person who wasn't the best candidate got an interview, along with a number of other applicants who weren't the best candidate? So what. It's all too easy to say "But there just aren't any good managers out there who aren't white men". And a cursory look down the list may suggest you are right. But I was struck recently by something that happened to me in my work. I work for a global firm and was at a "Town Hall" event where some of the leaders were there talking about their experiences and paths of how they got there. Every single one of the eight or so people up on stage were middle aged white men. I've never really considered that I would want to / be able to become a position of leadership like them. However as I listened to them all speak, I was struck by the thought "Wait a minute, these guys are all not so different to me. I'll be a middle aged white guy myself soon enough. If I keep on doing what I'm doing there's no reason I couldn't get there too, it's the natural path." This thought then led me on to think that if I were from a minority I would have the opposite take - that either I have to fight and smash through a glass ceiling here or just accept that I'm never going to make it. Being a natural coward I'm sure I would have opted for the latter. I believe it's exactly these subtle, unconscious moments that lead to a position where certain people in society feel their options are limited and get put off from every attempting to make it. If it takes a bit of active intervention for a period to start to lift this, then I welcome it. Anyway, that's my position laid out in a bit more detail, for others to pick apart. My primary response still remains: what's the downside in bringing in the Rooney Rule? Either it's a massive success, or else every job goes to exactly who it would have gone to anyway and a few people from minorities got interviews for jobs they applied to. Remind me the objection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Anyway, that's my position laid out in a bit more detail, for others to pick apart. My primary response still remains: what's the downside in bringing in the Rooney Rule? Either it's a massive success, or else every job goes to exactly who it would have gone to anyway and a few people from minorities got interviews for jobs they applied to. Remind me the objection? Because, to put it simply, discrimination in any form is wrong. I've spent most of the last 20 years in Africa and the Middle East (becoming a citizen of South Africa in the process). I've seen the worst effects of positive discrimination in many places. I don't support racism in any form. But to succeed, 100% of effort needs to be focussed on eradicating negative discrimination. Introducing any form of positive discrimination and claiming that as a measure to combat negative discrimination is both lazy and pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 It's all too easy to say "But there just aren't any good managers out there who aren't white men". And a cursory look down the list may suggest you are right. But I was struck recently by something that happened to me in my work. I work for a global firm and was at a "Town Hall" event where some of the leaders were there talking about their experiences and paths of how they got there. Every single one of the eight or so people up on stage were middle aged white men. I've never really considered that I would want to / be able to become a position of leadership like them. However as I listened to them all speak, I was struck by the thought "Wait a minute, these guys are all not so different to me. I'll be a middle aged white guy myself soon enough. If I keep on doing what I'm doing there's no reason I couldn't get there too, it's the natural path." This thought then led me on to think that if I were from a minority I would have the opposite take - that either I have to fight and smash through a glass ceiling here or just accept that I'm never going to make it. Being a natural coward I'm sure I would have opted for the latter. I believe it's exactly these subtle, unconscious moments that lead to a position where certain people in society feel their options are limited and get put off from every attempting to make it. If it takes a bit of active intervention for a period to start to lift this, then I welcome it. Yup, this is exactly it. Takes a bit of sensitivity to view your experience from someone else's perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Yup, this is exactly it. Takes a bit of sensitivity to view your experience from someone else's perspective. It's a nonsense to imply that those who don't support the Rooney rule lack sensitivity and cannot see from another perspective. Some minority groups including black people have themselves stated that they consider it unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Dunno why Rooney is suddenly the big authority on all this But yeah, like Deano says, let John Barnes have his interview, it doesn't do any actual harm. On his way out the door, they can give him a lollipop for the drive home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 It's a nonsense to imply that those who don't support the Rooney rule lack sensitivity and cannot see from another perspective. Some minority groups including black people have themselves stated that they consider it unnecessary. The bit I replied to didn't reference the Rooney rule. So your reply to me doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 4 April, 2015 Share Posted 4 April, 2015 Because, to put it simply, discrimination in any form is wrong. I've spent most of the last 20 years in Africa and the Middle East (becoming a citizen of South Africa in the process). I've seen the worst effects of positive discrimination in many places. I don't support racism in any form. But to succeed, 100% of effort needs to be focussed on eradicating negative discrimination. Introducing any form of positive discrimination and claiming that as a measure to combat negative discrimination is both lazy and pointless. I disagree with your blanket view that positive discrimination is always wrong and should be avoided. In some cases I think it can be justified to help overcome an ingrained social prejudice, despite my inherent discomfort with the idea. But I respect your position on it. I think we all agree it would be better if measures like this were not necessary, although that doesn't make it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 6 April, 2015 Share Posted 6 April, 2015 I disagree with your blanket view that positive discrimination is always wrong and should be avoided. In some cases I think it can be justified to help overcome an ingrained social prejudice, despite my inherent discomfort with the idea. But I respect your position on it. I think we all agree it would be better if measures like this were not necessary, although that doesn't make it so. Of course positive discimination is wrong. Should not the best man, woman. or dog be given the postion. We have positive descrimination in Angola, where Angolans who are not ready to accept the responcibility of the positions they are put in then can make life / possible death decisions where a much better qualified Ex Pat is available. this is not just Angola but much of West Africa, Where the Nationals are agreived that other cultures have entered there countries and for the most part added to the benifits improved infrastructure but are still seen as the colonial masters. When a major disaster happens in the oil industry of West Africa and the investigation reveals it was due to the incompetence of the crew you can be guaranteed that the findings will go against the OIl Majors and not the crew that they have to employ to satisfy local labour laws and nationalisation programs. Now before you all start with why dont we train more Nationals to carry out these tasks We do but as soon as they have a certificate normally from an American or European accredited agency they leave and the National position has to go to another National who has not got the same training. an ever decreasing skill cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 6 April, 2015 Share Posted 6 April, 2015 Of course positive discimination is wrong. Should not the best man, woman. or dog be given the postion. We have positive descrimination in Angola, where Angolans who are not ready to accept the responcibility of the positions they are put in then can make life / possible death decisions where a much better qualified Ex Pat is available. this is not just Angola but much of West Africa, Where the Nationals are agreived that other cultures have entered there countries and for the most part added to the benifits improved infrastructure but are still seen as the colonial masters. When a major disaster happens in the oil industry of West Africa and the investigation reveals it was due to the incompetence of the crew you can be guaranteed that the findings will go against the OIl Majors and not the crew that they have to employ to satisfy local labour laws and nationalisation programs. Now before you all start with why dont we train more Nationals to carry out these tasks We do but as soon as they have a certificate normally from an American or European accredited agency they leave and the National position has to go to another National who has not got the same training. an ever decreasing skill cycle. Ok Phil, we have gone very off topic here but I'll just pop in to remind the point that the Rooney Rule doesn't give the job to minorities, it only ensures at least one minority candidate gets an interview. Nobody (at all) is suggesting that the best candidate out of those considered shouldn't get the job. It really is a very benign policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 16 April, 2015 Share Posted 16 April, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/31970841 Good to see that the coaching bursary plan is working. As many said, encouraging black coaches is where we should start. Also encouraging to see the likes of Houghton talking against the Rooney rule. Maybe now we can stop talk of this silly racial discrimination law and look forward to these coaching bursaries paying dividends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 16 April, 2015 Share Posted 16 April, 2015 And from another article on the BBC. What brilliant young men, you can stick your whining failures like Ince and Barnes up your a*se. These are the types of blokes who deserves to succeed without any of that pandering Rooney rule nonsense. Lets hope they have the talent to go with the desire and work ethic and they should have no trouble getting a decent job in football: Do the stats put you off? "I am someone who has always thought it was down to me whether I was good enough or not. It is more about opportunity. I am going to get a lot more knockbacks. I am not one to throw around allegations that it is about skin colour, even though there are too many elements of that. I have experienced them. But I also believe there are opportunities there. It is just harder to find them. If I have to kick doors down, that is what I will do." Do you believe colour is an issue? "I am stubborn. I don't take 'no' for an answer. I know people who have given up. For me, it is the frame of mind. You have to be mentally strong, even though you might feel the opportunities are not going to be there, or it is going to take twice as long. I will get there eventually. I have to believe that otherwise there would be no point. I might as well stop now." Is colour an issue? "The world is the world. I see things a bit differently. Can I really say I have been held back as a direct result of my colour? I think the answer to that is 'no'. Have there been things that suggest it could be because of that? Possibly. But I am never going to get those answers. I look at it like this: I want to be there because I am better than everyone else." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 16 April, 2015 Share Posted 16 April, 2015 Ok sure, black people should shut up whining and work harder. Definitely. That is what is going to solve it, they were all just feckless before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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