Survival - a reality check

[david in sweden]

10 years on and we still had just-  half of a good season, but our real success has been surviving - for yet another year.

In some ways we have had a little  "statistical  success"  in playing 4 games v. the Manchester sides without losing, and then 

beating 2  good London sides  away from home, (the win at Spurs gave me some personal delight), and our solitary goal v. Arsenal

at SMS  was perhaos the one game that eventually guaranteed our survival in what has been a disasterous end of season programme.

The reality is that for a dozen or so clubs, " Prem. success "  is survival,  and they breathe a sign of relief until August comes around.

 

 This is not enough for those fans who demand the managers sacking after a bad run, or those who expect us to up the limit on the  

credit card every transfer window, and those signings we do make are either; " long shots ", or badly misplaced faith in a player who

doesn't fit our formation, and is no longer playing alongside former team mates - who made him successful in the first place.

 

Being one of the " big money clubs"  doesn't guarantee success either. Every year clubs like; Spurs, Villa, Leicester and

Man. Utd  "splash the cash" to little effect, in the vain hopes of rediscovering some former glory that their fathers once knew.

Everton's survival maybe short-lived - if the auditors can trace the £500 million they have seemingly " overspent" in the last few years.

The fact remains that the "Chelsea's, Liverpool's and Man.City"  will always have the wherewithal to buy the best / most expensive players

whilst stealing away better talents from the rest of us - often for a pittance in comparative transfer fees.

 

Every season "the yo-yo clubs"  ; (the likes of Watford, Fulham, Bournemouth and Norwich).. conquer the Championship with

apparent ease, only to end up in the Prem's bottom three after their first season. The " reality gap"  between the two leagues is an 

enormous chasm, and not just 3 places up the ladder.  On rare occasion Saints have a good run of luck; the Koeman's bought almost

a whole new squad without breaking the bank, and gave us a couple of great seasons, before the lure of " the greener grass " draws 

them away-to an uncertain future elsewhere.  Whether they succeed or not (?) they still walk away richer in the long term.

 

As I anticipate my 64th season as a Saints fan ..... (I'm not the longest-supporting, but there are very few of us left).... I live in hopes of

a good Cup run - maybe even a Final, but the wins have been far too few, and Prem. survival has almost always been in the bottom half, 

but the spirit in the club has always kept hopes of better future alive, although long ago I learned to be pragmatic about Saints'  "successes ".

 

 

[Winnersaint]

41 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

10 years on and we still had just-  half of a good season, but our real success has been surviving - for yet another year.

In some ways we have had a little  "statistical  success"  in playing 4 games v. the Manchester sides without losing, and then 

beating 2  good London sides  away from home, (the win at Spurs gave me some personal delight), and our solitary goal v. Arsenal

at SMS  was perhaos the one game that eventually guaranteed our survival in what has been a disasterous end of season programme.

The reality is that for a dozen or so clubs, " Prem. success "  is survival,  and they breathe a sign of relief until August comes around.

 

 This is not enough for those fans who demand the managers sacking after a bad run, or those who expect us to up the limit on the  

credit card every transfer window, and those signings we do make are either; " long shots ", or badly misplaced faith in a player who

doesn't fit our formation, and is no longer playing alongside former team mates - who made him successful in the first place.

 

Being one of the " big money clubs"  doesn't guarantee success either. Every year clubs like; Spurs, Villa, Leicester and

Man. Utd  "splash the cash" to little effect, in the vain hopes of rediscovering some former glory that their fathers once knew.

Everton's survival maybe short-lived - if the auditors can trace the £500 million they have seemingly " overspent" in the last few years.

The fact remains that the "Chelsea's, Liverpool's and Man.City"  will always have the wherewithal to buy the best / most expensive players

whilst stealing away better talents from the rest of us - often for a pittance in comparative transfer fees.

 

Every season "the yo-yo clubs"  ; (the likes of Watford, Fulham, Bournemouth and Norwich).. conquer the Championship with

apparent ease, only to end up in the Prem's bottom three after their first season. The " reality gap"  between the two leagues is an 

enormous chasm, and not just 3 places up the ladder.  On rare occasion Saints have a good run of luck; the Koeman's bought almost

a whole new squad without breaking the bank, and gave us a couple of great seasons, before the lure of " the greener grass " draws 

them away-to an uncertain future elsewhere.  Whether they succeed or not (?) they still walk away richer in the long term.

 

As I anticipate my 64th season as a Saints fan ..... (I'm not the longest-supporting, but there are very few of us left).... I live in hopes of

a good Cup run - maybe even a Final, but the wins have been far too few, and Prem. survival has almost always been in the bottom half, 

but the spirit in the club has always kept hopes of better future alive, although long ago I learned to be pragmatic about Saints'  "successes ".

 

 

Couldn't agree more. Saw my first match in 63. Its never been brilliant throughout all of the ensuing 6 decades. 

Promotion 66

A couple of decent finishes 69 and 71 (UEFA Cup or equivalent)

Cup 76 UEFA CWC)

Promotion 78

LC Runners up 79

The eighties were probably our most consistent period but we neither won anything or tore Europe apart. Post Hysel ban probably didn't help)

The nineties were pretty barren but were lit up by one player.

2003 Cardiff

Back to back promotions 11/12

Best league position (Since 2nd and 4th in 83 and 84) 2016 (UEFA Cup in all)

That's all folks!

Edited 22 May, 2022 by Winnersaint

[Matthew Le God]

3 minutes ago, Winnersaint said:

Best league position 2016

Saints had higher league positions than 6th in the 1980s.

[Badger]

All very true David, and I'm sure most Saints fans at the start of the season would have said the prime objective was staying up. Having achieved this, the current 'negativity' come not from the failure to win a trophy but the collapse since February. 

At that point we were in the QF's of the Cup (although the draw next day tempered the hopes) and with a continued run of form possibly challenging for a Top 10 finish (good achievement for us and our squad), possibly even a European place (though unlikely). Since then though the players have essentially just gone through the motions. No wonder fans are frustrated, and pissed off.

I'm not jumping on the 'Ralph out' bandwagon, that seems an 'easy fix' to many, but our problems lie deeper, re poor investment and recruitment over several years catching up with us. Overalll, you sense a lack of direction from the top. That is not to say RH is without blame for tactics, motivation, substitutions, and most of all selections ( No Romeu v Liverpool, Tella, Diallo both piss poor, and more bizarrely Smallbone v Watford). Difficult to defend that. 

You've got a decade on me following Saints (I started late 1960's), and with the exception of the Lawrie years we've  flirted with relegation fights on and off. Nothing new, but in the past you felt players were committed to the cause rather than probably just viewing their summer move. Like you I hope for Cup runs, and another success. But I've gone from wondering if I'll ever see one again in my lifetime to questioning if those running the club give a monkeys about it providing as long as we tread water in the top flight.

 

Edited 22 May, 2022 by Badger

[Winnersaint]

10 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Saints had higher league positions than 6th in the 1980s.

indeed. Edited. I think you'll agree they were good years to be Saints fan though!

[Wade Garrett]

There are a few fundamentals that the club have got wrong for a number of years.

The transfer policy is wrong.  Continually trying to unearth the next Mane has led to a number of young players signed who just haven’t been good enough, Livramento aside.

We have to sign a mix of youth and experience.  The balance is way off at the moment.

I’m not going to talk about the manager and coaching staff again.  Just to say we need a clean sweep.

I am hoping the new owners, with their expertise and business savvy will steer the club in a different direction.

[Christophenburg]

On 22/05/2022 at 10:06, Badger said:

All very true David, and I'm sure most Saints fans at the start of the season would have said the prime objective was staying up. Having achieved this, the current 'negativity' come not from the failure to win a trophy but the collapse since February. 

I think the current negativity comes from the way we achieved that survival. I know in my heart of hearts that Saints competing for silverware is a pipe dream, but I'd settle for actually being competitive for 90 minutes on a Saturday and not completely collapsing. The manner with which we play, the mentality when we concede, and the degree with which we completely fold, are the sources of my negativity

[Teddeer]

On 22/05/2022 at 09:26, david in sweden said:

10 years on and we still had just-  half of a good season, but our real success has been surviving - for yet another year.

In some ways we have had a little  "statistical  success"  in playing 4 games v. the Manchester sides without losing, and then 

beating 2  good London sides  away from home, (the win at Spurs gave me some personal delight), and our solitary goal v. Arsenal

at SMS  was perhaos the one game that eventually guaranteed our survival in what has been a disasterous end of season programme.

The reality is that for a dozen or so clubs, " Prem. success "  is survival,  and they breathe a sign of relief until August comes around.

 

 This is not enough for those fans who demand the managers sacking after a bad run, or those who expect us to up the limit on the  

credit card every transfer window, and those signings we do make are either; " long shots ", or badly misplaced faith in a player who

doesn't fit our formation, and is no longer playing alongside former team mates - who made him successful in the first place.

 

Being one of the " big money clubs"  doesn't guarantee success either. Every year clubs like; Spurs, Villa, Leicester and

Man. Utd  "splash the cash" to little effect, in the vain hopes of rediscovering some former glory that their fathers once knew.

Everton's survival maybe short-lived - if the auditors can trace the £500 million they have seemingly " overspent" in the last few years.

The fact remains that the "Chelsea's, Liverpool's and Man.City"  will always have the wherewithal to buy the best / most expensive players

whilst stealing away better talents from the rest of us - often for a pittance in comparative transfer fees.

 

Every season "the yo-yo clubs"  ; (the likes of Watford, Fulham, Bournemouth and Norwich).. conquer the Championship with

apparent ease, only to end up in the Prem's bottom three after their first season. The " reality gap"  between the two leagues is an 

enormous chasm, and not just 3 places up the ladder.  On rare occasion Saints have a good run of luck; the Koeman's bought almost

a whole new squad without breaking the bank, and gave us a couple of great seasons, before the lure of " the greener grass " draws 

them away-to an uncertain future elsewhere.  Whether they succeed or not (?) they still walk away richer in the long term.

 

As I anticipate my 64th season as a Saints fan ..... (I'm not the longest-supporting, but there are very few of us left).... I live in hopes of

a good Cup run - maybe even a Final, but the wins have been far too few, and Prem. survival has almost always been in the bottom half, 

but the spirit in the club has always kept hopes of better future alive, although long ago I learned to be pragmatic about Saints'  "successes ".

 

 

Calling it a 'bad run' doesn't tell the whole story. Speaking for myself I can accept defeats but it is the manner of the defeats which makes me believe Ralph has run his course with us. We lost to some poor teams struggling at the foot of the table. We were weak, offered little or no opposition and looked absolutely clueless in attack, defence and midfield. Leicester as a prime example will not have had an easier 3 points all season. Ralph trots out platitudes but there is no substance to what he spouts nor any sign that he has a clue how to turn things around when his teams enter a slump. His time is up for me so he can go and take his ridiculous play book with him.

[Norm]

David, good post. As for me, staying in the Prem is success. Unless Mr Gates buys us, ending a season in 12-16th place, is as much as we can hope for.

[Saint Fan CaM]

As has already been said, while you can expect defeats, it’s difficult to take defeats week in week out and the manner in which this happens has just not been addressed. While defensive or GK errors are often blamed for our defeats, being overrun in midfield and having little attacking threat or composure does little to create the conditions to even challenge the opposing team and provide an opportunity to win.

Often we’ll score one goal and then collapse…it’s a bit like the adage “a broken clock is right twice a day”…our attacking threat is almost by accident rather than by design. I watch how others teams use triangulation, passing through channels, clever positioning and movement around the opposing box to create chances and score goals. We don’t do that. Why? Because we have Championship level strikers who scored lots of goals from wingers crossing into box, but that’s not Ralph’s playbook, so our strikers are basically rendered useless.
 

Adam Armstrong does not have the positional awareness to make it in the Prem and Che is not much better. Long tries but gets appalling service. Broja scored a few mainly because he was capable of creating chances for himself, but then got caught up in the playbook.

Lastly I would reflect on the fact that this group of players have shown they can perform, score a few goals and win a game convincingly. So for me the blame for the poor form lies with the Manager, his coaching staff and an inflexible playbook. It has to be sorted over the summer or we will be nailed on relegation fodder.

[adrian lord]

We were buzzing from 76-84. 

[John B]

27 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

As has already been said, while you can expect defeats, it’s difficult to take defeats week in week out and the manner in which this happens has just not been addressed. While defensive or GK errors are often blamed for our defeats, being overrun in midfield and having little attacking threat or composure does little to create the conditions to even challenge the opposing team and provide an opportunity to win.

Often we’ll score one goal and then collapse…it’s a bit like the adage “a broken clock is right twice a day”…our attacking threat is almost by accident rather than by design. I watch how others teams use triangulation, passing through channels, clever positioning and movement around the opposing box to create chances and score goals. We don’t do that. Why? Because we have Championship level strikers who scored lots of goals from wingers crossing into box, but that’s not Ralph’s playbook, so our strikers are basically rendered useless.
 

Adam Armstrong does not have the positional awareness to make it in the Prem and Che is not much better. Long tries but gets appalling service. Broja scored a few mainly because he was capable of creating chances for himself, but then got caught up in the playbook.

Lastly I would reflect on the fact that this group of players have shown they can perform, score a few goals and win a game convincingly. So for me the blame for the poor form lies with the Manager, his coaching staff and an inflexible playbook. It has to be sorted over the summer or we will be nailed on relegation fodder.

In general I thought we beat teams when they were poor and lost to teams when they played well

 

West Ham Brentford and Everton were dreadful when we beat them and Villa Crystal Palace good when we lost to them

 

How the opposition plays and how many individual mistakes our players make together the run of the ball affects the outcome of a game which is often out of the control of our manager.

 

No doubt our manager like me wouuld like some better and more experienced attacking players but we do not seem to have any money or desire as a club to get them

 

If we had Saha Ericksen and Tarowski in our team instead of Redmond Eloynousi and Stepens we would be a pretty decent team

[Charlie Wayman]

On 22/05/2022 at 09:26, david in sweden said:

10 years on and we still had just-  half of a good season, but our real success has been surviving - for yet another year.

In some ways we have had a little  "statistical  success"  in playing 4 games v. the Manchester sides without losing, and then 

beating 2  good London sides  away from home, (the win at Spurs gave me some personal delight), and our solitary goal v. Arsenal

at SMS  was perhaos the one game that eventually guaranteed our survival in what has been a disasterous end of season programme.

The reality is that for a dozen or so clubs, " Prem. success "  is survival,  and they breathe a sign of relief until August comes around.

 

 This is not enough for those fans who demand the managers sacking after a bad run, or those who expect us to up the limit on the  

credit card every transfer window, and those signings we do make are either; " long shots ", or badly misplaced faith in a player who

doesn't fit our formation, and is no longer playing alongside former team mates - who made him successful in the first place.

 

Being one of the " big money clubs"  doesn't guarantee success either. Every year clubs like; Spurs, Villa, Leicester and

Man. Utd  "splash the cash" to little effect, in the vain hopes of rediscovering some former glory that their fathers once knew.

Everton's survival maybe short-lived - if the auditors can trace the £500 million they have seemingly " overspent" in the last few years.

The fact remains that the "Chelsea's, Liverpool's and Man.City"  will always have the wherewithal to buy the best / most expensive players

whilst stealing away better talents from the rest of us - often for a pittance in comparative transfer fees.

 

Every season "the yo-yo clubs"  ; (the likes of Watford, Fulham, Bournemouth and Norwich).. conquer the Championship with

apparent ease, only to end up in the Prem's bottom three after their first season. The " reality gap"  between the two leagues is an 

enormous chasm, and not just 3 places up the ladder.  On rare occasion Saints have a good run of luck; the Koeman's bought almost

a whole new squad without breaking the bank, and gave us a couple of great seasons, before the lure of " the greener grass " draws 

them away-to an uncertain future elsewhere.  Whether they succeed or not (?) they still walk away richer in the long term.

 

As I anticipate my 64th season as a Saints fan ..... (I'm not the longest-supporting, but there are very few of us left).... I live in hopes of

a good Cup run - maybe even a Final, but the wins have been far too few, and Prem. survival has almost always been in the bottom half, 

but the spirit in the club has always kept hopes of better future alive, although long ago I learned to be pragmatic about Saints'  "successes ".

 

 

Why bother then?

[Saint Fan CaM]

11 hours ago, John B said:

In general I thought we beat teams when they were poor and lost to teams when they played well

 

West Ham Brentford and Everton were dreadful when we beat them and Villa Crystal Palace good when we lost to them

 

How the opposition plays and how many individual mistakes our players make together the run of the ball affects the outcome of a game which is often out of the control of our manager.

 

No doubt our manager like me wouuld like some better and more experienced attacking players but we do not seem to have any money or desire as a club to get them

 

If we had Saha Ericksen and Tarowski in our team instead of Redmond Eloynousi and Stepens we would be a pretty decent team

Yes, better players may produce better results however I don’t think we can underestimate the influence the Manager has on the manner in which they are to play tactically against a given team. If players are so focused trying to deliver the Managers instructions, they have less capacity to adapt and change and/or use their inherent skills to change a game. Telling a player how to play a game is NOT the same as coaching them how to win a game - he may be a decent tactician, but I don’t think Ralph is a good coach. Just my observations of how this team is so uninspired and lacking in creativity.

[SW5 SAINT]

On 22/05/2022 at 10:57, Winnersaint said:

Couldn't agree more. Saw my first match in 63. Its never been brilliant throughout all of the ensuing 6 decades. 

Promotion 66

A couple of decent finishes 69 and 71 (UEFA Cup or equivalent)

Cup 76 UEFA CWC)

Promotion 78

LC Runners up 79

The eighties were probably our most consistent period but we neither won anything or tore Europe apart. Post Hysel ban probably didn't help)

The nineties were pretty barren but were lit up by one player.

2003 Cardiff

Back to back promotions 11/12

Best league position (Since 2nd and 4th in 83 and 84) 2016 (UEFA Cup in all)

That's all folks!

Runners up in the First Division in 1984……

[david in sweden]

20 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Why bother then?

I was born in So´ton .....where would I find another team now ?

[John B]

14 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Yes, better players may produce better results however I don’t think we can underestimate the influence the Manager has on the manner in which they are to play tactically against a given team. If players are so focused trying to deliver the Managers instructions, they have less capacity to adapt and change and/or use their inherent skills to change a game. Telling a player how to play a game is NOT the same as coaching them how to win a game - he may be a decent tactician, but I don’t think Ralph is a good coach. Just my observations of how this team is so uninspired and lacking in creativity.

What skills do you possess to say whether Ralph is a good or bad coach

Most times we lose the other team plays better or we make stupid mistakes or the Ref makes a mistake

[miserableoldgit]

3 hours ago, david in sweden said:

I was born in So´ton .....where would I find another team now ?

Me too. Started watching Saints as a young shaver, standing on a biscuit tin so that I could see over the wall at the Milton Road end where the players came out. Got my first ST in 1974 and had one ever since. My daughter, who was born four days after the FA Cup win in 76 (what week that was!!) started coming with me when she was 15 and shortly after bought her own ST next to mine and we have been going to matches together ever since. Sort of fell out of love with football over the years but  still matchdays with the Saints. It's a way of life. As you say...where would I find another team now?

[Saint Fan CaM]

13 hours ago, John B said:

What skills do you possess to say whether Ralph is a good or bad coach

Most times we lose the other team plays better or we make stupid mistakes or the Ref makes a mistake

I have been professionally trained as a coach. To get the best from your team you need to provide the conditions that allows individuals to flourish. With the odd exceptions when everything clicks, I don’t believe that is happening under Ralph and the evidence I see is in the way players regress generally and the constrained style of play that provides opposing Managers to easily find ways of beating Ralph’s system. Or to put it another way, Ralph’s system is not working for this group of players.

[John B]

7 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

I have been professionally trained as a coach. To get the best from your team you need to provide the conditions that allows individuals to flourish. With the odd exceptions when everything clicks, I don’t believe that is happening under Ralph and the evidence I see is in the way players regress generally and the constrained style of play that provides opposing Managers to easily find ways of beating Ralph’s system. Or to put it another way, Ralph’s system is not working for this group of players.

So what system would work for this group of players ?

Especially as we have limited top class PL players and are attacking players are not that good in fact they are the worst I have seen since I starting watching in 1962

 

[Give it to Ron]

2 minutes ago, John B said:

So what system would work for this group of players ?

Especially as we have limited top class PL players and are attacking players are not that good in fact they are the worst I have seen since I starting watching in 1962

 

How about one where they play regularly or get brought on as a sub in games not just randomly selected after weeks of nothing?

A system where a substitute is made when needed not just because there is 10 mins left? Or when the midfield is overrun by 4-2-2-2 by one of the best team in countries B team?

A system where both fullbacks don’t bomb forward together leaving the middle two drawn out by gaps behind the FB’s.

Bloody obvious from the stands.

[Give it to Ron]

On 25/05/2022 at 11:44, Charlie Wayman said:

Why bother then?

Says the bloke who threatened to leave for Arsenal 

[Saint Fan CaM]

4 minutes ago, John B said:

So what system would work for this group of players ?

Especially as we have limited top class PL players and are attacking players are not that good in fact they are the worst I have seen since I starting watching in 1962

 

Oh I agree with you - I’ve posted elsewhere that our striking options are as much if not more of a problem than our defensive woes. In fact it’s been mentioned that it’s the spine of the team that needs urgent attention and I wholeheartedly agree.

Assuming we do little or nothing in the transfer market, I would favour a deeper defensive line, get another man (a true 10) into midfield to help JWP and Romeu, and spend significant time coaching different attacking options rather than the very predictable style we currently employ. I’d also be asking the players to contribute to ideas based on their strengths. But that’s just me and I’m not a PL manager.