What Is Happening To Our Country?

[AlexLaw76]

[Gloucester Saint]

Has to be to do with the 30th anniversary next year, but it’s slightly wearisome that it keeps on dragged up and rehashed. Diana wrote her own books. Harry is probably got a contract lined up for next summer to directly tie in with 30 years. 

[Sir Ralph]

It’s definitely not happening 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm0463619r1no

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

It’s definitely not happening 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm0463619r1no

What isn't ? Ratcliffe is a Monegasque for tax purposes, having moved there, ( despite being a supporter of Brexit ), under the last Tory Government..

Edited 17 hours ago by badgerx16

[Sir Ralph]

You obviously didn’t read what he said. Despite multiple high profile figures saying the same You just have your head in the sand. The vast majority of people in business are all saying the same thing. 

more evidence - even the guy that Burnham wanted him to advise him (didn’t take up the opportunity) has said the same thing- https://www.cityam.com/haldane-warns-burnham-on-tax-and-spend-socialist-government/

https://www.cityam.com/walking-an-economic-tightrope-and-the-wind-is-picking-up/

The Tories are also to blame.What more evidence do you need?

Edited 16 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Farmer Saint]

5 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

It’s definitely not happening 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm0463619r1no

What's definitely not happening? Man who left UK in 2020 stays in Monaco???

Have you noticed what all these people have in common? The ones who are either saying they have lost confidence, or have decided to move operations abroad? 

They all campaigned for, funded and voted to leave the EU.

Now, as someone who has said unequivocally that Brexit was an awful idea and that they didn't vote to leave, do you trust (a) what these people say when they helped to put us in this hostile business environment, and (b) their business acumen.

Edited 12 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[Sir Ralph]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

What's definitely not happening? Man who left UK in 2020 stays in Monaco???

Have you noticed what all these people have in common? The ones who are either saying they have lost confidence, or have decided to move operations abroad? 

They all campaigned for, funded and voted to leave the EU.

Now, as someone who has said unequivocally that Brexit was an awful idea and that they didn't vote to leave, do you trust (a) what these people say when they helped to put us in this hostile business environment, and (b) their business acumen.

The purpose of the article was more about his comments on the state of the uk and how he has said people are leaving because they are being taxed to death and that for this, and other reasons, he had lost confidence. The other articles also state similar positions around the reasons for the condition of the economy, including overspending (I apply this to the Tories but increasingly more so to Labour) so your thoughts on those would be helpful. The City AM editors article is interesting as his article reflects discussions with business chiefs in London (I assume that some of these must have business acumen if they are speaking to the editor of City AM and they aren’t the local corner shop owner).
 

1. I didn’t say Brexit was an “awful” idea. I didn’t vote for it and I don’t think we should have left - that’s a more accurate reflection. I understand why some people voted for it as they anticipated that it would be implemented differently that would have made it more appealing from a business perspective but that wasn’t in their control. Also some people voted to Leave on non business grounds

2. Radcliffe promoted Brexit. However in relation to all the other billionaires who have left I’m sure it wouldn’t have been the majority (remember half the population Voted to leave so it’s no surprising that in the sample of billionaires there are some). Also some people voted to leave not just on business grounds. So when you say they “all” campaigned I’m not clear of the evidence of this

3 I would certainly trust the business acumen of a multi billionaire founder of multiple firms who has top, top advice around him. The guy came from a council estate and built these businesses without a golden spoon in this mouth. I suspect his business acumen, and that of the many other billionaires saying they are leaving or have left, would be much greater than any one of the posters on here. The evidence being that they are successful billionaires on the Forbes list and I suspect we aren’t. 
 

Edited 10 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

What's definitely not happening? Man who left UK in 2020 stays in Monaco???

Have you noticed what all these people have in common? The ones who are either saying they have lost confidence, or have decided to move operations abroad? 

They all campaigned for, funded and voted to leave the EU.

Now, as someone who has said unequivocally that Brexit was an awful idea and that they didn't vote to leave, do you trust (a) what these people say when they helped to put us in this hostile business environment, and (b) their business acumen.

Lol, the answer doesn't say whether he trusts them or not.

[Sir Ralph]

19 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Lol, the answer doesn't say whether he trusts them or not.

Silly response as you didn’t read my post.

Edited 10 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[badgerx16]

7 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

You obviously didn’t read what he said. 
 

I did, but I'm not wetting my pants over it.

Edited 10 hours ago by badgerx16

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

17 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Silly response as you didn’t read my post.

What a condescending post, as you didn't answer the question fully.

You answered that you trust billionaires' business acumen. You didn't say whether you trust what they say.

[whelk]

44 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

The purpose of the article was more about his comments on the state of the uk and how he has said people are leaving because they are being taxed to death and that for this, and other reasons, he had lost confidence. The other articles also state similar positions around the reasons for the condition of the economy so your thoughts on those would be helpful. The City AM editors article is interesting as his article reflects discussions with business chiefs in London (I assume that some of these must have business acumen if they are speaking to the editor of City AM and they aren’t the local corner shop owner).
 

1. I didn’t say Brexit was an “awful” idea. I didn’t vote for it and I don’t think we should have left - that’s a more accurate reflection. I understand why some people voted for it as they anticipated that it would be implemented differently that would have made it more appealing from a business perspective but that wasn’t in their control.

2. Radcliffe promoted Brexit. However in relation to all the other billionaires who have left I’m sure it wouldn’t have been the majority (remember half the population Voted to leave so it’s no surprising that in the sample of billionaires there are some). Also some people voted to leave not just on business grounds. So when you say they “all” campaigned I’m not clear of the evidence of this

3 I would certainly trust the business acumen of a multi billionaire founder of multiple firms who has top, top advice around him. The guy came from a council estate and built these businesses without a golden spoon in this mouth. I suspect his business acumen, and that of the many other billionaires saying they are leaving or have left, would be much greater than any one of the posters on here. The evidence being that they are successful billionaires on the Forbes list and I suspect we aren’t. 
 

Jim R is worth listening to generally but also knows how to play the media. Ineos made fortunes buying bloated assets from ICI, BP and others and had the golden touch. Not so much these days though although chemical industry generally is in a bit of a sorry state

 

Edited 10 hours ago by whelk

[rallyboy]

Ratcliffe is a very clever guy these days and wants the best for everyone.

A shy, generous and loyal supporter of the UK tax system, a CV of business success against the odds, a glorious win in the America's Cup and the way he turned Manchester United around, yep, being rich means he's an expert on every subject.

[Sir Ralph]

16 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Ratcliffe is a very clever guy these days and wants the best for everyone.

A shy, generous and loyal supporter of the UK tax system, a CV of business success against the odds, a glorious win in the America's Cup and the way he turned Manchester United around, yep, being rich means he's an expert on every subject.

Ok so your view is that his opinion is limited. I disagree. His opinions does matter hence why it’s one of the main stories on the bbc. Regardless what about all of the other billionaires and business leaders saying the same thing. Are they all wrong?

As a side note turning Utd around will take time. In the champions league this year though so not doing too badly compared to other years

Edited 9 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Sir Ralph said:

 The evidence being that they are successful billionaires on the Forbes list and I suspect we aren’t. 
 

They piss, fart and shit the same as everybody else.

[egg]

15 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Ok so your view is that his opinion is limited. I disagree. His opinions does matter hence why it’s one of the main stories on the bbc. Regardless what about all of the other billionaires and business leaders saying the same thing. Are they all wrong?

As a side note turning Utd around will take time. In the champions league this year though so not doing too badly compared to other years

He's correct in that we're in a difficult place, but so are all the other major European economies. If he was abandoning us and going to Spain or Belgium because it was the land of milk and honey, I'd take your point, but he fucked off years ago to a tax haven.

If you read what he says, he offers no solutions save opening the north sea (on which I agree), but that's not an altruistic plea given his business interests. 

If he had any genuine interest in his country he'd stay and contribute, but he showed his colours when he went to Monaco to tax dodge. 

[Sir Ralph]

18 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

They piss, fart and shit the same as everybody else.

Thats such a silly comment. They do go to the toilet in the same way but also know more about business.

Imagine if a scientist said that he had a theory and I disagreed and disregarded their view by saying he piss, farts and shits the same as everyone else, bringing him down to the general populations level of scientific understanding . They are essentially specialists in their fields so their opinion matters - they have more experience (including their advisors) in this field. 

[Sir Ralph]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

He's correct in that we're in a difficult place, but so are all the other major European economies. If he was abandoning us and going to Spain or Belgium because it was the land of milk and honey, I'd take your point, but he fucked off years ago to a tax haven.

If you read what he says, he offers no solutions save opening the north sea (on which I agree), but that's not an altruistic plea given his business interests. 

If he had any genuine interest in his country he'd stay and contribute, but he showed his colours when he went to Monaco to tax dodge. 

I think the point made is that, whilst we obviously can’t be a tax free haven, the government policies are going in the wrong direction, they aren’t even moving the right way. He wasn’t saying why he left but making a general comment on the state of the country from his perspective 

If he wants to leave that’s his prerogative. I was chatting to the Mrs about whether we stay here in the future. I’m patriotic but the last 10-15 years means there are fewer and fewer elements of this country that reflect my values and the values of many others. It feels that progressive governments aren’t enacting what people want and there is a disconnect that is very plain to see (in this case in relation to business). That is why I align myself with his comments 

Edited 8 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[egg]

1 minute ago, Sir Ralph said:

Thats such a silly comment. They do go to the toilet in the same way but also know more about business.

Imagine if a scientist said that he had a theory and I disagreed and disregarded their view by saying he piss, farts and shits the same as everyone else, bringing him down to the general populations level of scientific understanding . They are essentially specialists in their fields so their opinion matters - they have more experience (including their advisors) in this field. 

I take your point, but Ratcliffe ain't Einstein. 

No businessman is a genius in the way that inventors or scientists can be. 

Successful business owners make money. Scientists can make a difference. 

[Sir Ralph]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

I take your point, but Ratcliffe ain't Einstein. 

No businessman is a genius in the way that inventors or scientists can be. 

Successful business owners make money. Scientists can make a difference. 

What about all the other business leaders and billionaires saying similar things - do you think they are all incorrect? Gary Lineker doesn’t count 😉

Edited 8 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[egg]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

Yes I take your point. I think the point made is that, whilst we obviously can’t be a tax free haven, the government policies are going in the wrong direction, they aren’t even moving the right way.

If he wants to leave that’s his prerogative. I was chatting to the Mrs about whether we stay here in the future. I’m patriotic but the last 10-15 years means there are fewer and fewer elements of this country that reflect my values and the values of many others. That is why I align myself with his comments 

The issue with your posts is that you frame this as him joining an exodus, now, but that's not the case. He's a bloke who went years ago for his own selfish reasons, and is now having a moan because the north sea won't open as he would like, and then sticking the boot in on the country he abandoned whilst failing to recognise that much if the world economy is fucked for reasons beyond the control of a couple of central governments. 

I read the same words as you, but through a different lens.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

What about all the other business leaders and billionaires saying similar things - do you think they are all incorrect? Gary Lineker doesn’t count 😉

I have no respect whatsoever for any person who abandons their country for selfish ends. 

Lineker I respect immensely. He's got a moral compass and a pair of bollocks. 

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

I have no respect whatsoever for any person who abandons their country for selfish ends. 

Lineker I respect immensely. He's got a moral compass and a pair of bollocks. 

He just chases the £ but with much better PR.

[Sir Ralph]

33 minutes ago, egg said:

I have no respect whatsoever for any person who abandons their country for selfish ends. 

Lineker I respect immensely. He's got a moral compass and a pair of bollocks. 

In your first post we can agree to disagree. I agree that the world is in trouble but my view and that of Radcliffe is that, notwithstanding this, government policy is exacerbating matters and going in the wrong direction.

 

Lineker is a virtue signaller in my opinion. The guy is a football player / tv pundit and he is as informed as Mary down the road in relation to the matters he is given a platform to talk about. Radcliffe is much better qualified to talk about the economy than Lineker about the matters he barks on about. He is a football pundit (I repeat). If he wants everyone to pay more tax, as he keeps saying, and is a principled man, why doesn’t he dip into his own pocket and overpay HMRC? Genuine question. In 2023 he actually appealed against HMRC over his tax bill for around £5m. He is about as principled as a vegan in a steakhouse

Edited 8 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Lighthouse]

Gary Lineker thinks Just Stop Oil are wonderful, saving the planet and will be remembered, "on the right side of history." He believes that people being killed in vehicle accidents, both on the roads and at F1 races are worth it for the greater good. Anyone who takes inspiration from him on moral issues needs to have a bit of a rethink.

[egg]

25 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

In your first post we can agree to disagree. I agree that the world is in trouble but my view and that of Radcliffe is that, notwithstanding this, government policy is exacerbating matters and going in the wrong direction.

 

Lineker is a virtue signalling fool in my opinion. The guy is a football player / tv pundit and he is as informed as Mary down the road in relation to the matters he is given a platform to talk about. Radcliffe is much better qualified to talk about the economy than Lineker about the matters he barks on about. He is a football pundit (I repeat). If he wants everyone to pay more tax, as he keeps saying, and is a principled man, why doesn’t he dip into his own pocket and overpay HMRC? Genuine question. In 2023 he actually appealed against HMRC over his tax bill for around £5m. He is about as principled as a vegan in a steakhouse

I won't carry on a discussion with you because you'll go round in circles, but I'll comment re lineker.

He's a bloke with a moral compass. His opinion about Zionism isn't a complicated one, and anyone can and should have an opinion on that. What he had was the bollocks to voice it, unlike most. 

I'm not sure how you can conflate that with his stance on his tax - where he challenged a wrongly applied principle - and was proved correct.

I see him as standing up for what's right, whereas you applaud people who stand up up for what's right for their pocket. 

[egg]

12 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Gary Lineker thinks Just Stop Oil are wonderful, saving the planet and will be remembered, "on the right side of history." He believes that people being killed in vehicle accidents, both on the roads and at F1 races are worth it for the greater good. Anyone who takes inspiration from him on moral issues needs to have a bit of a rethink.

I'm not going here with you given your Israel/Gaza stance mate. 

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm not going here with you given your Israel/Gaza stance mate. 

I haven’t mentioned Gaza and I wasn’t actually aware that I had a stance as such, so this is news to me but okay. 

[Sir Ralph]

22 minutes ago, egg said:

I won't carry on a discussion with you because you'll go round in circles, but I'll comment re lineker.

He's a bloke with a moral compass. His opinion about Zionism isn't a complicated one, and anyone can and should have an opinion on that. What he had was the bollocks to voice it, unlike most. 

I'm not sure how you can conflate that with his stance on his tax - where he challenged a wrongly applied principle - and was proved correct.

I see him as standing up for what's right, whereas you applaud people who stand up up for what's right for their pocket. 

I stand for working hard, reaping your own reward and for people standing on their own two feet not relying on others. My experience is that people who are allowed to make money create jobs and this allows people to have their own jobs than rely on the state. People achieving in life should be applauded and rewarded, rather than people envying them, as it normally benefits wider society

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

I stand for working hard, reaping your own reward and for people standing on their own two feet not relying on others. My experience is that people who are allowed to make money create jobs and this allows people to have their own jobs than rely on the state. People achieving in life should be applauded and rewarded, rather than people envying them, as it normally benefits wider society

As I said, you'll go around in circles. I know the difference outlooks we have, and as much as I don't respect your political views, I respect that you can have them. I'll leave it there. 

[whelk]

18 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I haven’t mentioned Gaza and I wasn’t actually aware that I had a stance as such, so this is news to me but okay. 

Lineker is good mates with Gazza

[egg]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Lineker is good mates with Gazza

I know several ex players who are. Incredibly popular bloke. 

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

I stand for working hard, reaping your own reward and for people standing on their own two feet not relying on others. My experience is that people who are allowed to make money create jobs and this allows people to have their own jobs than rely on the state. People achieving in life should be applauded and rewarded, rather than people envying them, as it normally benefits wider society

So do you believe that there has to be a Public sector, regardless of arguments over it's size ? If so then do you accept that these people work hard, despite the fact that they do not create jobs. Are they not, in their own way, achieving, and benefitting the wider society ?

Edited 7 hours ago by badgerx16

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Ratcliffe is a very clever guy these days and wants the best for everyone.

A shy, generous and loyal supporter of the UK tax system, a CV of business success against the odds, a glorious win in the America's Cup and the way he turned Manchester United around, yep, being rich means he's an expert on every subject.

Except cycling.  He managed to take the super dominant, multi tour winning Sky team and turn them into an also ran, almost overnight.

I guess that's a magnificent achievement of sorts.

[Sir Ralph]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So do you believe that there has to be a Public sector, regardless of arguments over it's size ? If so then do you accept that these people work hard, despite the fact that they do not create jobs. Are they not, in their own way, achieving, and benefitting the wider society ?

You need a public sector obviously. Some contribute to society others less so. As I often have to liaise with various public sector groups my view is that there are too many public sector bodies, which create bureaucracy and slow down the economy. The creation of bureaucracy justifies some jobs in my experience. Personally by simplifying process and regulation helping to reduce public spending. 

[Winnersaint]

8 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Except cycling.  He managed to take the super dominant, multi tour winning Sky team and turn them into an also ran, almost overnight.

I guess that's a magnificent achievement of sorts.

Yes. Team Sky to Ineos such a comedown compared to UAE, TVL Lidl-Trek these days.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

5 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

What's definitely not happening? Man who left UK in 2020 stays in Monaco???

Have you noticed what all these people have in common? The ones who are either saying they have lost confidence, or have decided to move operations abroad? 

They all campaigned for, funded and voted to leave the EU.

Now, as someone who has said unequivocally that Brexit was an awful idea and that they didn't vote to leave, do you trust (a) what these people say when they helped to put us in this hostile business environment, and (b) their business acumen.

Since Labour are looking to retrospectively stop people moving here and funding, why not retrospectively declare people funding and then jumping abroad as void too? Then we can rerun the Brexit vote. 🙂

[Osvaldorama]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Except cycling.  He managed to take the super dominant, multi tour winning Sky team and turn them into an also ran, almost overnight.

I guess that's a magnificent achievement of sorts.

How many billion pound business empires have you run, out of interest? 

[Osvaldorama]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

So do you believe that there has to be a Public sector, regardless of arguments over its size ? If so then do you accept that these people work hard, despite the fact that they do not create jobs. Are they not, in their own way, achieving, and benefitting the wider society ?

How do you believe the public sector is funded?

 

Where do you think the money comes from? 

[Sheaf Saint]

Radcliffe's opinion on all this isn't worth shit. I don't deny that he has worked hard to achieve his success, but to complain about the decline of the UK when his company goes to extreme lengths to pay as little tax as possible on UK revenue through a complex system of offshore shell companies and intellectual property rights is about as hypocritical as you could get. So fuck him and his opinion, that is just a transparent attempt to influence government policy in his own favour.

https://taxjustice.uk/blog/sir-jim-ratcliffe-the-billionaire-finger-pointing-at-migrants-and-picking-britains-pockets-from-monaco/

[Weston Super Saint]

9 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

How many billion pound business empires have you run, out of interest? 

One.

[badgerx16]

20 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

How do you believe the public sector is funded?

 

Where do you think the money comes from? 

Do you think public sector workers are less committed, and are lower achievers ? Do they contribute less to society ?

Edited 6 hours ago by badgerx16

[Gloucester Saint]

37 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you think public sector workers are less committed, and are lower achievers ? Do they contribute less to society ?

I run an arm/operation of an organisation with a turnover in the hundreds of millions and to think that people in different sectors work harder than others or are worth more is tabloid type fodder for gullible people.

Talented high performing people work in firms large and small, charities large and small, there are great teachers and lots of people are mixed sector. There are poor performing people in all sectors as well, we’ve all come across them. Plenty of private businesses and consultants rely on contracts from large public sector and Whitehall. I used to be one of them. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Gloucester Saint

[Farmer Saint]

4 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

I think the point made is that, whilst we obviously can’t be a tax free haven, the government policies are going in the wrong direction, they aren’t even moving the right way. He wasn’t saying why he left but making a general comment on the state of the country from his perspective 

If he wants to leave that’s his prerogative. I was chatting to the Mrs about whether we stay here in the future. I’m patriotic but the last 10-15 years means there are fewer and fewer elements of this country that reflect my values and the values of many others. It feels that progressive governments aren’t enacting what people want and there is a disconnect that is very plain to see (in this case in relation to business). That is why I align myself with his comments 

I think you should fuck off mate - that'd be good for this country.

If you want somewhere that reflects your values and morals I would suggest the US, or North Korea.

Edited 4 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[Farmer Saint]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Except cycling.  He managed to take the super dominant, multi tour winning Sky team and turn them into an also ran, almost overnight.

I guess that's a magnificent achievement of sorts.

Apart from Man United, who are doing poorly, the rest of the Ineos teams are all bottom of their respective divisions #winners

[Sir Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Apart from Man United, who are doing poorly, the rest of the Ineos teams are all bottom of their respective divisions #winners

Would you describe Radcliffe and the other billionaires and high profile businesss people who are making the relevant noises as successful and knowledgeable on economic matters?

Edited 5 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

8 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I think you should fuck off mate - that'd be good for this country.

You don’t need to get angry treacle, self control is an attribute you would do well to work on. I’ll do as I please thank you. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Farmer Saint]

11 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Would you describe Radcliffe and the other billionaires and high profile businesss people who are making the relevant noises as successful and knowledgeable on economic matters?

No, I think people shouldn't be stereotyped and treated one by one. Would you say Donald Trump is successful and knowledgeable on economic matters?

Edited 4 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

You don’t need to get angry treacle, self control is an attribute you would do well to work on. I’ll do as I please thank you. 

I'm not angry - not sure where you gathered that from? I think you should go somewhere you don't pay tax.

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

No. Would you say Donald Trump is successful and knowledgeable on economic matters?

SR: word salad, word salad.

Pontification.

Slight digs.

Skirt the question. And ask you a question.

Supercilious person. Obviously fishing.