Solving the Immigration Problem

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, tdmickey3 said:

That prick Thompson has pleaded not guilty.... what a wanker

Gets his day in Court and the opportunity to spout his bollocks.

[aintforever]

4 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Evidence please? I’ve given you evidence that the blue hair and nose ring brigade get leniency. I would love to take your word for it but experience tells me otherwise

How does the very tough sentences handed out to the Just Stop Oil protesters square with your two-tier theory?

[Weston Super Saint]

34 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Gets his day in Court and the opportunity to spout his bollocks.

He'll also see what proof they've got. I reckon they've really got their work cut out to prove he did it!

Although pleading not guilty to a crime that everyone knows you've committed isn't going to make sure you get a lower sentence when the decision is made!

[Sir Ralph]

40 minutes ago, aintforever said:

How does the very tough sentences handed out to the Just Stop Oil protesters square with your two-tier theory?

The just stop oil protests aren’t a similar comparison with the migrant protests. The major JSO cases involved deliberately planned, large scale disruption relating to significant transport infrastructure and military infrastructure. Also some of the JSO people had previous for similar actions at similar protests as it’s the same bunch of people causing the disruption.

The migrant hotel protests involved some disorder, attacks on police and riot, so different to JSO. The BLM protests involved similar disorder, attacks on police and riot as the migrant protests but with published prosecution and sentencing outcomes nowhere near as bad as the migrant hotels protests.

Edited 10 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[rallyboy]

Plead guilty and donations stop

Plead not guilty and you can carry on fleecing the thickos and racists.

#prayfortommo

[Lighthouse]

Feel a bit sorry for Thomas. I also got arrested for getting my dinghy out and having a slash, on Netley beach.

[egg]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Gets his day in Court and the opportunity to spout his bollocks.

And to roll the dice and hope that 12 good folk from Portsmouth acquit. He may well have an argument that, at the moment he slashed it, the dinghy was abandoned and didn't belong to another. Watch this space.

[tdmickey3]

1 minute ago, egg said:

And to roll the dice and hope that 12 good folk from Portsmouth acquit. He may well have an argument that, at the moment he slashed it, the dinghy was abandoned and didn't belong to another. Watch this space.

Really, really really hope not

[whelk]

21 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Feel a bit sorry for Thomas. I also got arrested for getting my dinghy out and having a slash, on Netley beach.

Shaking it for too long afterwards is an altogether different crime

[egg]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Shaking it for too long afterwards is an altogether different crime

Sounds like the voice of experience. 

[Farmer Saint]

[Farmer Saint]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

And to roll the dice and hope that 12 good folk from Portsmouth acquit. He may well have an argument that, at the moment he slashed it, the dinghy was abandoned and didn't belong to another. Watch this space.

They'll likely be poor and inadequately educated, so will be on his side unfortunately.

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

The just stop oil protests aren’t a similar comparison with the migrant protests. The major JSO cases involved deliberately planned, large scale disruption relating to significant transport infrastructure and military infrastructure. Also some of the JSO people had previous for similar actions at similar protests as it’s the same bunch of people causing the disruption.

The migrant hotel protests involved some disorder, attacks on police and riot, so different to JSO. The BLM protests involved similar disorder, attacks on police and riot as the migrant protests but with published prosecution and sentencing outcomes nowhere near as bad as the migrant hotels protests.

And what about the really tough sentences handed out for the 2012 riots?

[egg]

10 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

They'll likely be poor and inadequately educated, so will be on his side unfortunately.

He's got nothing to lose that's for sure. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

54 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Feel a bit sorry for Thomas. I also got arrested for getting my dinghy out and having a slash, on Netley beach.

I'm sure it would've been bigger once you'd inflated it. 🙂

[Sir Ralph]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

And what about the really tough sentences handed out for the 2012 riots?

Havent looked into it. What I'm doing is comparing the treatment from a political perspective. Protests from those on the left versus the right. The 2011 riots werent politically motivated / driven by people from a specific political spectrum (it was just chaos) and were 14 years ago so not really what I have been comparing. Do you agree the BLM protests were unusually lenient compared to the illegal immigrant protests? If so why?

Edited 7 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[egg]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

And what about the really tough sentences handed out for the 2012 riots?

2011? Your mate will ignore them as they had a left leaning motivation, and lacked any right leaning motivation. 

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

I'm sure it would've been bigger once you'd inflated it. 🙂

People who were sunbathing in the RV Country Park complained about the shadow caused by his erm ‘lighthouse’. 

[Farmer Saint]

2 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Havent looked into it. What I'm doing is comparing the treatment from a political perspective. Protests from those on the left versus the right. The 2011 riots werent politically motivated / driven by people from a specific political spectrum (it was just chaos) and were 14 years ago so not really what I have been comparing. Do you agree the BLM protests were unusually lenient compared to the illegal immigrant protests? If so why?

Can you please get us two similar cases, similar age/sex of defendant, similar previous criminal history, similar social media profile, same judge and then we can do comparisons. You can't (and I can't believe we're going through this again) just stereotype all these cases into one. Let's deal with some of these charges 1 by 1, and then we can have a sensible, detailed debate about it.

What I would say, is BLM is protesting against the glamorisation of historic slavery and racism, which I think we would all agree is a good thing, whereas the immigrant protests are protesting for racism, so I think they're onto a hiding already.

Edited 5 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[Sir Ralph]

37 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Can you please get us two similar cases, similar age/sex of defendant, similar previous criminal history, similar social media profile, same judge and then we can do comparisons. You can't (and I can't believe we're going through this again) just stereotype all these cases into one. Let's deal with some of these charges 1 by 1, and then we can have a sensible, detailed debate about it.

What I would say, is BLM is protesting against the glamorisation of historic slavery and racism, which I think we would all agree is a good thing, whereas the immigrant protests are protesting for racism, so I think they're onto a hiding already.

No I don’t need to. I’ve got a sample of cases across two similar protests, in a similar time period, with similar crimes, and that is sufficient to demonstrate the difference. Hardly anyone (other than some of the left wing posters on here) wouldn’t accept the reasonable comparisons I have provided on here. Last time I got criticised for cherry picking individual cases!

I won’t even get onto your views about BLM. Protesting about Imaginary modern day racism, which doesn’t materially impact society (we live in one of the most tolerant, sometimes overly tolerant, societies in the world) and things that happened hundreds of years ago, which aren’t relevant nowadays. BLM is a Marxist organisation. Anyway I thought a crime was a crime regardless of your perception of the rights and wrongs. Is it not now?

Edited 4 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Farmer Saint]

10 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

No I don’t need to. I’ve got a sample of cases across two similar protests, in a similar time period, with similar crimes, and that is sufficient to demonstrate the difference. Hardly anyone (other than some of the left wing posters on here) wouldn’t accept the reasonable comparisons I have provided on here. Last time I got criticised for cherry picking individual cases!

I won’t even get onto your views about BLM. Protesting about Imaginary modern day racism, which doesn’t materially impact society (we live in one of the most tolerant, sometimes overly tolerant, societies in the world) and things that happened hundreds of years ago, which aren’t relevant nowadays. BLM is a Marxist organisation. Anyway I thought a crime was a crime regardless of your perception of the rights and wrongs. Is it not now?

Sorry, I must have missed that - which cases are you referring to then?

Crime's are crime's, 100%, but as I said earlier you have to understand context in law. It's a huge part of it and as such it makes a huge difference to the sentences handed out.

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

Wonder if he'll get done for carrying around a knife too.

[aintforever]

3 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Havent looked into it. What I'm doing is comparing the treatment from a political perspective. Protests from those on the left versus the right. The 2011 riots werent politically motivated / driven by people from a specific political spectrum (it was just chaos) and were 14 years ago so not really what I have been comparing. Do you agree the BLM protests were unusually lenient compared to the illegal immigrant protests? If so why?

The difference in my opinion, in all the cases, is the need for a deterrent, it’s nothing to do with politics. That’s why some on the far left, like the Just Stop Oil were handed severe sentences just like some in the far right.

There was a risk of the Just Stop Oil protests getting out of control just like there is a risk of the boat slashers/protesters causing dangerous situations. The 2011 riots also had to be stamped down on which is why people got banged up for minor crimes then.

Edited 3 hours ago by aintforever

[Sir Ralph]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

The difference in my opinion, in all the cases, is the need for a deterrent, it’s nothing to do with politics. That’s why some on the far left, like the Just Stop Oil were handed severe sentences just like some in the far right.

There was a risk of the Just Stop Oil protests getting out of control just like there is a risk of the boat slashers/protesters causing dangerous situations. The 2011 riots also had to be stamped down on which is why people got banged up for minor crimes then.

I understand your point but why weren’t the BLM protestors deterred by their sentences - that is my question? Those protests are the ones most akin to the current illegal migrant protests for the reasons previously stated

Edited 2 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[West end Saints]

2 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

No I don’t need to. I’ve got a sample of cases across two similar protests, in a similar time period, with similar crimes, and that is sufficient to demonstrate the difference. Hardly anyone (other than some of the left wing posters on here) wouldn’t accept the reasonable comparisons I have provided on here. Last time I got criticised for cherry picking individual cases!

I won’t even get onto your views about BLM. Protesting about Imaginary modern day racism, which doesn’t materially impact society (we live in one of the most tolerant, sometimes overly tolerant, societies in the world) and things that happened hundreds of years ago, which aren’t relevant nowadays. BLM is a Marxist organisation. Anyway I thought a crime was a crime regardless of your perception of the rights and wrongs. Is it not now?

Just curious, are you white?

[Sir Ralph]

12 minutes ago, West end Saints said:

Just curious, are you white?

Yes - I’ve lived in other countries with far bigger racism problems than are faced in the uk so I’ve seen the relative issues with racism in different countries. I’m not going to be stupid enough to say there isnt racism but the BLM protests here appeared to me to be a knee jerk reaction to George Floyd, an issue with racism in another country. 40-50 years ago I would agree that protests to the extent of the BLM protests could have been justified (without the violence), but not nowadays. I also have issues with BLM as an organisation and the other things it stands for. My use of the word “imaginary” was probably incorrect I should have said “perceived significant issues with racism”.
 

Anyway the point isn’t about BLM itself the point is about sentencing between the two protests. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[West end Saints]

Apologies if I misunderstood your earlier post, but read it as you saying any modern day racism is imagined. It clearly isn't - there is clear evidence that there is significant racism in society, employment, health, education and criminal justice - easy to find many studies and government reports.

I don't know your evidence of your views on public disorder sentences, however there are clear matrixes written for sentence guidelines if there is any unfairness there are clear routes to appeal.

There will be some sentences which appear unduly lenient / harsh even after sentence - these probably feed your fears - but if you had the full story - when pleas were made, other information supplied to police, previous convictions, impact statements etc - they maybe more understandable.

Look at "Tommo", whatever you think of current offence, he has a conviction for a knife point kidnapping in large scale drug supply and committed these recent offences whilst already on bail for other offences included racially aggravated public order, so bail always unlikely.

Edited 51 minutes ago by West end Saints

[Osvaldorama]

It has been confirmed that the number of small boat migrants that have arrived under Labour outnumber the entire British regular army  
 

[aintforever]

19 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

I understand your point but why weren’t the BLM protestors deterred by their sentences - that is my question? Those protests are the ones most akin to the current illegal migrant protests for the reasons previously stated

I don’t think they are the same at all. People protesting about a racist murder by the police is very different to an organised group, wearing balaclavas trying to get at immigrants or block a road.

[Sir Ralph]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I don’t think they are the same at all. People protesting about a racist murder by the police is very different to an organised group, wearing balaclavas trying to get at immigrants or block a road.

But hang on isn’t a crime a crime? Also your description of the reasons for each different group protesting aren’t accurate in my opinion. If you go down that route you start getting to a dangerous situation whereby, in the opinion of some if you assault a police officer in one protest it’s more justifiable than another situation, which is actually what is happening with some of the sentencing! 

Edited 2 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

14 minutes ago, West end Saints said:

Apologies if I misunderstood your earlier post, but read it as you saying any modern day racism is imagined. It clearly isn't - there is clear evidence that there is significant racism in society, employment, health, education and criminal justice - easy to find many studies and government reports.

I don't know your evidence of your views on public disorder sentences, however there are clear matrixes written for sentence guidelines if there is any unfairness there are clear routes to appeal.

There will be some sentences which appear unduly lenient / harsh even after sentence - these probably feed your fears - but if you had the full story - when pleas were made, other information supplied to police, previous convictions, impact statements etc - they maybe more understandable.

Look at "Tommo", whatever you think of current office, he has a conviction for a knife point kidnapping in large scale drug supply and committed these recent offences whilst already on bail for other offences included racially aggravated public order, so bail always unlikely.

Yes I understand your point and am aware of these factors. However the comparison of the blm charges and sentencing and the same for the Illegal migrants is taken over a wide sample of similar crimes, which provides a trend (or otherwise) even when considering the nuances of each case. If it was only one or two cases I would agree but not across a wider sample. That’s my point

Edited 2 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

But hang on isn’t a crime a crime? Also your description of the reasons for each different group protesting aren’t accurate in my opinion. If you go down that route you start getting to a dangerous situation whereby, in the opinion of some if you assault a police officer in one protest it’s more justifiable than another situation, which is actually what is happening with some of the sentencing! 

No I’m saying that sometime strong sentences are imposed as a deterrent, the guy who got banged up for nicking a doughnut during the 2011 riots wouldn’t have got the same sentence had he just stolen a doughnut on a normal day. Same crime, different situations.

[Sir Ralph]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

No I’m saying that sometime strong sentences are imposed as a deterrent, the guy who got banged up for nicking a doughnut during the 2011 riots wouldn’t have got the same sentence had he just stolen a doughnut on a normal day. Same crime, different situations.

Yes and I agree but it doesn’t answer my question about the disparity in charges and sentencing across a wider sample for the BLM v illegal migrant protests, both of which were protests with some public disorder (regardless on a persons view as to the justification for either protest)

Edited 2 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, Sir Ralph said:

Yes and I agree but it doesn’t answer my question about the disparity in charges and sentencing across a wider sample for the BLM v illegal migrant protests, both of which were protests with some public disorder (regardless on your view as to the justification for either protest)

I don’t believe the need for a deterrent is remotely similar. I expect the police see a bunch of organised, balaclava wearing thugs with a leader who is a convicted criminal as a potentially much bigger threat than some people protesting about a murder.

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I don’t believe the need for a deterrent is remotely similar. I expect the police see a bunch of organised, balaclava wearing thugs with a leader who is a convicted criminal as a potentially much bigger threat than some people protesting about a murder.

Fuck me your klaxon has gone off today 😂😂

Edited 1 hour ago by Turkish

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, Sir Ralph said:

Yes and I agree but it doesn’t answer my question about the disparity in charges and sentencing across a wider sample for the BLM v illegal migrant protests, both of which were protests with some public disorder (regardless on your view as to the justification for either protest)

Can go even further, countless evidence of pro-Palestine protestors causing criminal damage, throwing stuff at police, firing fireworks at police. 

You had the Manchester thugs punching the police woman. The riots in Birmingham. 
 

Just so, so many examples where it’s clear that the judiciary system is weaponised for the left. 

Anyone denying it at this point has an agenda. The government and police are currently set up to protect their ideology instead of policing fairly. 

[Sir Ralph]

57 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I don’t believe the need for a deterrent is remotely similar. I expect the police see a bunch of organised, balaclava wearing thugs with a leader who is a convicted criminal as a potentially much bigger threat than some people protesting about a murder.

So there were 360 BLM protests, 35 officers were assaulted and 135 were arrested. In the illegal migrant case there were 250 protests with 300 officers were assaulted and 1,804 were charged. Gives you an idea of the scale of the disorder versus arrests - do those figures not seem strange to you?

Edited 1 hour ago by Sir Ralph

[Osvaldorama]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I don’t believe the need for a deterrent is remotely similar. I expect the police see a bunch of organised, balaclava wearing thugs with a leader who is a convicted criminal as a potentially much bigger threat than some people protesting about a murder.

Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy here? Insane thing to write 

[Sir Ralph]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy here? Insane thing to write 

The same crime is a more serious crime if I see fit that it is

[Farmer Saint]

6 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I don’t believe the need for a deterrent is remotely similar. I expect the police see a bunch of organised, balaclava wearing thugs with a leader who is a convicted criminal as a potentially much bigger threat than some people protesting about a murder.

I'm not sure how many more times we can mention context..?

[Osvaldorama]

3 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I'm not sure how many more times we can mention context..?

“context” = whatever a politicised judge decides?
 

This is what the left don’t realise. If you base justice around feelings instead of facts, it will come back and haunt you when a right wing government gets back in. 
 

[aintforever]

7 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Can go even further, countless evidence of pro-Palestine protestors causing criminal damage, throwing stuff at police, firing fireworks at police. 

You had the Manchester thugs punching the police woman. The riots in Birmingham. 
 

Just so, so many examples where it’s clear that the judiciary system is weaponised for the left. 

Anyone denying it at this point has an agenda. The government and police are currently set up to protect their ideology instead of policing fairly. 

The police will be acting on what they see as the bigger threat, I expect the far right is potentially a problem they think could get worse. I’m glad they are making an example of the cunts, hopefully more long sentences will follow for anyone else involved.

Edited 1 hour ago by aintforever

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

“context” = whatever a politicised judge decides?
 

This is what the left don’t realise. If you base justice around feelings instead of facts, it will come back and haunt you when a right wing government gets back in. 
 

Well, it's been this way for 500 years, and it's not changed yet...you always sentence with context.

[Sir Ralph]

5 minutes ago, aintforever said:

The police will be acting on what they see as the bigger threat, I expect the far right is potentially a problem they think could get worse. I’m glad they are making an example of the cunts, hopefully more long sentences will follow for anyone else involved.

So you think they are looking to be harder on those protesters on the right than the left, despite those on the left protesting significantly more and therefore on those grounds causing more anti social behaviour (eg BLM, Palestine, JSO, etc). Point made. Glad you agree. That’s called two tier policing

Edited 1 hour ago by Sir Ralph

[aintforever]

8 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

 

Just so, so many examples where it’s clear that the judiciary system is weaponised for the left. 

Yet the Just Stop Oil protesters received record sentences for non violent protest.

[aintforever]

Just now, Sir Ralph said:

So you think they are looking to be harder on those protesters on the right than the left. Point made

Based purely on the potential threat, just like the Just Stop Oil protesters.

[Farmer Saint]

4 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

So you think they are looking to be harder on those protesters on the right than the left, despite those on the left protesting significantly more and therefore on those grounds causing more anti social behaviour (eg BLM, Palestine, JSO, etc). Point made. Glad you agree. That’s called two tier policing

I would have thought that's called "Two tier sentencing" is it not?

Do you think the grannies being arrested for peacefully protesting about Palestine are treated worse than those in balaclavas? 

Edited 1 hour ago by Farmer Saint

[Sir Ralph]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Based purely on the potential threat, just like the Just Stop Oil protesters.

Thats my point- you’re saying the police are justified in treating the right more harshly cause they perceive them to be a bigger threat. Why? What objectively made the illegal migrant protestssuch a greater threat than BLM where a higher proportion of officers were assaulted compared to the number of protests than the illegal migrant protests.

JSO is different ad it involved respeat targeting of national infrastructure by repeat offenders so the crimes were different. 

[badgerx16]

42 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

It has been confirmed that the number of small boat migrants that have arrived under Labour outnumber the entire British regular army  
 

A full house at Wembley outnumbers the regular army.

[Sir Ralph]

5 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I would have thought that's called "Two tier sentencing" is it not?

Do you think the grannies being arrested for peacefully protesting about Palestine are treated worse than those in balaclavas? 

I’m not comparing a peaceful granny protesting to a protester committing crimes. What’s your view on this statistics? Everyone has ducked them

Edited 1 hour ago by Sir Ralph