The role of Dave Jones (not the Cardiff one) in all this mess

[alpine_saint]

Some bloke on TUI called "Chester Perry" keeps banging on about Dave Jone's culpability in the complete financial mess SFC faces.

 

Well, does he have a point ? After all, he has been a fixed feature of the managerial skyline of SFC all through the relegation period, board changes, etc. Has the CFO being ridiculously timid or negligent in preventing the burgeoning financial crisis facing SFC ? Surely he speaks up at board meetings when capital expenditure is discussed...........

[buctootim]

Some bloke on TUI called "Chester Perry" keeps banging on about Dave Jone's culpability in the complete financial mess SFC faces.

 

Well, does he have a point ? After all, he has been a fixed feature of the managerial skyline of SFC all through the relegation period, board changes, etc. Has the CFO being ridiculously timid or negligent in preventing the burgeoning financial crisis facing SFC ? Surely he speaks up at board meetings when capital expenditure is discussed...........

 

Chester Perry is Thwatty Matty / Matthew Paul. I wouldnt put too much store (ie none) by what he says.

[alpine_saint]

Chester Perry is Thwatty Matty / Matthew Paul. I wouldnt put too much store (ie none) by what he says.

 

Yeeeeessss, OK, but, there is a good question here to be answered.

 

What the hell was our CFO doing whilst Wilde and then Crouch (if we are really to believe our debt problems started in the summer of 2006, which I doubt) were racking up huge financial committments and debts ?

[buctootim]

Yeeeeessss, OK, but, there is a good question here to be answered.

 

What the hell was our CFO doing whilst Wilde and then Crouch (if we are really to believe our debt problems started in the summer of 2006, which I doubt) were racking up huge financial committments and debts ?

 

As long as he produced accurate management accounts and warned them of the position then he did his job. You could argue that he might have resigned if his warnings were ignored - but it seems to me the whole club at that time were expecting a magic fairy takeover to wash all the problems away.

[alpine_saint]

As long as he produced accurate management accounts and warned them of the position then he did his job. You could argue that he might have resigned if his warnings were ignored - but it seems to me the whole club at that time were expecting a magic fairy takeover to wash all the problems away.

 

It's a bit weak though, isnt it ? He's supposed to be the gatekeeper with fiduciary responsibilities.

[John B]

As long as he produced accurate management accounts and warned them of the position then he did his job. You could argue that he might have resigned if his warnings were ignored - but it seems to me the whole club at that time were expecting a magic fairy takeover to wash all the problems away.

 

Yes I agree Crouch was always on about investment coming tomorrow or next week or next month or next year.

 

The whole strategy after Lowe left was spend money to get promotion George Burley knows some good players and then someone will take us over no problem.

 

Most Fans agreed because Lowe never injected money into the club and we are Southampton and we should be in the Premiership

 

Although I tend to agree Dave Jones seems to either to be incompetant or nobody took any notice of him.

 

It would be interesting to see any minutes of board meetings

Edited 19 August, 2008 by John B

[sunrise]

Although I tend to agree Dave Jones seems to either to be incompetant or nobody took any notice of him.

 

 

 

Alas, it is probably something we will never know. Out of interest, how long had Dave Jones been our financial director?

[sunrise]

Oops, instead of 'had', I mean 'has'.

[John B]

Oops, instead of 'had', I mean 'has'.

 

I think this answers your question

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=8875

[alpine_saint]

I think this answers your question

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=8875

 

Never read his resume before. So he's been with Lowe from the very early days.

 

Revealing.........

[John B]

Never read his resume before. So he's been with Lowe from the very early days.

 

Revealing.........

 

So Lowe and Cowen are working closely with two people who were heavily involved in causing the financial mess we are in today.

[Rebel]

Both Lowe and Hone - his two MDs/CEOs before Hoos were basically tyrants - they didn't listen to anyone and wanted total control of everything

 

Jones - like Hoos, Oldknow and Cowan was simply a yes man

 

all failed to do their jobs properly - speak up when necessary or listen to others when the time was right to do so

[John B]

Both Lowe and Hone - his two MDs/CEOs before Hoos were basically tyrants - they didn't listen to anyone and wanted total control of everything

 

Jones - like Hoos, Oldknow and Cowan was simply a yes man

 

all failed to do their jobs properly - speak up when necessary or listen to others when the time was right to do so

 

I have forgotten now had did Hone engineer Wilde's resignation and then sack Crouch from acting Chairman of the Football Club

[alpine_saint]

Both Lowe and Hone - his two MDs/CEOs before Hoos were basically tyrants - they didn't listen to anyone and wanted total control of everything

 

Jones - like Hoos, Oldknow and Cowan was simply a yes man

 

all failed to do their jobs properly - speak up when necessary or listen to others when the time was right to do so

 

Yes, but there are legal obligations on the CFO of a public-listed company. If he felt his voice was being disregarded, he should have quit.

 

If he didnt raise his voice at all, it is reasonable to ask the questions "why ?" and "WTF was he doing all that time ?"

[John B]

Yes, but there are legal obligations on the CFO of a public-listed company. If he felt his voice was being disregarded, he should have quit.

 

If he didnt raise his voice at all, it is reasonable to ask the questions "why ?" and "WTF was he doing all that time ?"

 

 

Because everbody blames Lowe/Wilde/Crouch other people at SFC appear to be able to survive with little or no public

 

scrutiny.

 

You are one the first to raise the topic although I seem to remember something similar in another thread

 

I sometimes think lots of fans think Lowe does everything and no one else is involved.

Edited 19 August, 2008 by John B

[benjii]

Yes, but there are legal obligations on the CFO of a public-listed company. If he felt his voice was being disregarded, he should have quit.

 

If he didnt raise his voice at all, it is reasonable to ask the questions "why ?" and "WTF was he doing all that time ?"

 

FFS.

 

Calm down.

 

I imagine he was doing his job of preparing forecasts, budgeting, etc...

 

I have no idea whether Dave Jones is any good at his job or not. I would suggest that the fact that a multitude of people have held the top job and have all chosen to keep him on indicates that he probably is quite good.

 

His job is not to decide whether we buy players or how much we pay them; it is to make sure the board (of which he has a part and in which he has one vote) has an accurate picture of the financial ramifications of its decisions.

 

Do you honestly think that Hone, Dulieu, Wilde etc didn't know they were spunking money in a big gamble? Do you think Dave Jones really needed to spell that out to them?

 

Of all the people to castigate or question I think he is way down the list.

 

You are rapidly becoming a self-parody.

[benjii]

As for the Secure Retirement connection...

 

again, wouldn't this make it all the more likely that he would have been swept out by Wilde? Firmer evidence that he must be regarded as a good egg IMO.

[alpine_saint]

FFS.

 

Calm down.

 

I imagine he was doing his job of preparing forecasts, budgeting, etc...

 

I have no idea whether Dave Jones is any good at his job or not. I would suggest that the fact that a multitude of people have held the top job and have all chosen to keep him on indicates that he probably is quite good.

 

His job is not to decide whether we buy players or how much we pay them; it is to make sure the board (of which he has a part and in which he has one vote) has an accurate picture of the financial ramifications of its decisions.

 

Do you honestly think that Hone, Dulieu, Wilde etc didn't know they were spunking money in a big gamble? Do you think Dave Jones really needed to spell that out to them?

 

Of all the people to castigate or question I think he is way down the list.

 

You are rapidly becoming a self-parody.

 

Then ignore me. I couldnt give a rat's arse what you think.

 

He has been there over the entire period. He was kept on after radical board changes twice to offer the face of "continuity". No one has known the clubs deteriorating plight better than him. I am entitled to ask the question as to whether he has conducted himself properly taking into account his responsibilities to the shareholders, big and small, of a public listed company.

 

Deal with it.

[alpine_saint]

As for the Secure Retirement connection...

 

again, wouldn't this make it all the more likely that he would have been swept out by Wilde? Firmer evidence that he must be regarded as a good egg IMO.

 

Yes-men tend to be viewed as a good egg by everybody.

[John B]

As for the Secure Retirement connection...

 

again, wouldn't this make it all the more likely that he would have been swept out by Wilde? Firmer evidence that he must be regarded as a good egg IMO.

 

I would have thought in most organisations which fail the FD is one of the first to go.

 

I dont understand why in this case no one thinks he should.

[John B]

Then ignore me. I couldnt give a rat's arse what you think.

 

He has been there over the entire period. He was kept on after radical board changes twice to offer the face of "continuity". No one has known the clubs deteriorating plight better than him. I am entitled to ask the question as to whether he has conducted himself properly taking into account his responsibilities to the shareholders, big and small, of a public listed company.

 

Deal with it.

 

I have not agreed with your posts in recent days but I am in full agreement with what you are saying tonight in this thread.

 

Perhaps your previous comments alienate you from other posters when you contribute something interesting

Edited 19 August, 2008 by John B

[benjii]

I would have thought in most organisations which fail the FD is one of the first to go.

 

I dont understand why in this case no one thinks he should.

 

Evidently.

 

I think we need to remember that football clubs make losses, generally. They operate in an industry which is structurally skewed to enable the rich to get richer and to prevent competition and fair play.

 

For most of the time Dave Jones has worked for the company we have been moderately succesful, as far as football clubs and finance go.

 

Recently we have not been. This is mostly due to relegation, which after two years, causes revenue to be cut by at least two thirds.

 

This has been exacerbated by spending levels which demanded promotion. Due to bad footballing management and underperformance from players this didn't happen.

 

The spending would have been sanctioned at board level and was not exlusively within Dave Jone's purview.

 

Maybe Chelsea's financial director should resign or "speak out" because they make a loss?

[alpine_saint]

I have not agreed with your posts in recent days but I am in full agreement with what you are saying tonight in this thread.

 

Perhaps your previous comments alienate you from other posters when you contribute something interesting

 

Thanks.

 

No doubt you are right about this. It seems a shame that certain individuals dont have the capacity to filter expressed opinions from other individuals like you have here, and accept that one does not have to be "on message" all of the time.............

[alpine_saint]

Evidently.

 

I think we need to remember that football clubs make losses, generally. They operate in an industry which is structurally skewed to enable the rich to get richer and to prevent competition and fair play.

 

For most of the time Dave Jones has worked for the company we have been moderately succesful, as far as football clubs and finance go.

 

Recently we have not been. This is mostly due to relegation, which after two years, causes revenue to be cut by at least two thirds.

 

This has been exacerbated by spending levels which demanded promotion. Due to bad footballing management and underperformance from players this didn't happen.

 

The spending would have been sanctioned at board level and was not exlusively within Dave Jone's purview.

 

Maybe Chelsea's financial director should resign or "speak out" because they make a loss?

 

Chelsea are not a plc anymore, are they ?

 

He had legal responsibilities, and if he felt he was prevented from executing them, he should have quit.

[benjii]

Chelsea are not a plc anymore, are they ?

 

He had legal responsibilities, and if he felt he was prevented from executing them, he should have quit.

 

Directors of all companies have responsibilties to the shareholders whether they are publically owned or not.

 

Chelsea was a bad example I suppose, yes. I imagine they only have one shareholder.

 

The point I was trying to make was that if any business has its revenue cut by more than 50% within two years, it's going to struggle.

 

I agree with you that all board members should be under scrutiny. I just think that when you look at what has happened, Dave Jones is not a significant player.

[alpine_saint]

I agree with you that all board members should be under scrutiny. I just think that when you look at what has happened, Dave Jones is not a significant player.

 

He should have been the one to reign in risks by Wilde and panic measures by Crouch. He may not have been the driver, but questions remain about his culpability.

 

Is he present at the AGM, to answer questions about the year's financial results ?

[John B]

Evidently.

 

I think we need to remember that football clubs make losses, generally. They operate in an industry which is structurally skewed to enable the rich to get richer and to prevent competition and fair play.

 

For most of the time Dave Jones has worked for the company we have been moderately succesful, as far as football clubs and finance go.

 

Recently we have not been. This is mostly due to relegation, which after two years, causes revenue to be cut by at least two thirds.

 

This has been exacerbated by spending levels which demanded promotion. Due to bad footballing management and underperformance from players this didn't happen.

 

The spending would have been sanctioned at board level and was not exlusively within Dave Jone's purview.

 

Maybe Chelsea's financial director should resign or "speak out" because they make a loss?

 

I may be wrong but I dont think Chelsea are a PLC.

 

Although of course SFC is a football club Southampton Holding's is not and should be treated as a PLC that is why dividends are paid to shareholders in the event of profit.

 

Also if revenue is falling I would have thought it should be the responsibility of the FD to ensure expenditure decreases also.

Edited 19 August, 2008 by John B

[benjii]

I may be wrong but I dont think Chelsea are a PLC.

 

Although of course SFC is a football club Southampton Holding's is not and should be treated as a PLC that is why dividends are paid to shareholders in the event of profit.

 

Also if revenue is falling I would have thought it should be the responsibility of the FD to ensure expenditure decreases also.

 

Well in fairness our expenses have gone down, with the exception of player wages.

 

I don't think the company operates whereby player wages are the responsibility of the FD.

 

I think historically it's been the manager and chairman's responsibility.

 

Look at Lowe's profile on the OS to see who takes the "credit" for player negotiations.

[Fowllyd]

He should have been the one to reign in risks by Wilde and panic measures by Crouch. He may not have been the driver, but questions remain about his culpability.

 

Is he present at the AGM, to answer questions about the year's financial results ?

 

Jones attends the AGMs I believe. A couple of interesting points on this thread: first, I've never worked in any organisation where the financial director was not extremely influential in the running of the business - far more than just a bean-counter, in other words; second, another poster mentioned that the FD is often the first to go when a business hits the skids - again, this is something I've seen on a few occasions.

 

My guess on this is that Jones has never had (and maybe has never sought) the level of influence FDs normally wield, and has effectively been a bean-counter and little more; thus, he's been safe in his position, partly because he's never been perceived as a threat.

[John B]

Well in fairness our expenses have gone down, with the exception of player wages.

 

I don't think the company operates whereby player wages are the responsibility of the FD.

 

I think historically it's been the manager and chairman's responsibility.

 

Look at Lowe's profile on the OS to see who takes the "credit" for player negotiations.

 

You may well be right but Jones probably gets a large salary so what is his role.

 

 

Somebody should be responsible for this mess surely it is not Lowe and Crouch was only really in charge for a few months

[Long Shot]

Wasn't Wilde "slagging" down Jones 6 months ago, saying he was not up to the job?

[bungle]

Then ignore me. I couldnt give a rat's arse what you think

 

Typical alpine. As soon as someone disagrees with him he has a big childish strop. Proving, once again, why he should be banned.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

Having an FD who will work under your direction and massage figures when presenting info to those you require funding from would be quite useful if you were in the chair, tweek this amend that etc....

[Scummer]

Having an FD who will work under your direction and massage figures when presenting info to those you require funding from would be quite useful if you were in the chair, tweek this amend that etc....

 

If he was doing that he'd be in breach of the accounting code of ethics, and could have his membership revoked.

[CB Fry]

Then ignore me. I couldnt give a rat's arse what you think.

 

He has been there over the entire period. He was kept on after radical board changes twice to offer the face of "continuity". No one has known the clubs deteriorating plight better than him. I am entitled to ask the question as to whether he has conducted himself properly taking into account his responsibilities to the shareholders, big and small, of a public listed company.

 

Deal with it.

 

Thanks.

 

No doubt you are right about this. It seems a shame that certain individuals dont have the capacity to filter expressed opinions from other individuals like you have here, and accept that one does not have to be "on message" all of the time.............

 

LOL at Alpine taking some moral high ground on a thread he started on the back of the opinions of Chester Perry/UTS/Mille Miglia clueless schizo Matty Paul. LOL, LOL and LOL again.

 

I wonder when Alpine is going to swallow the dull, but blindingly and pathetically obvious point that the decisions in companies are the responsibility of the cheif exec/chairman, and not the Financial Director.

 

The FD can provide the info, but ultimately they don't make (or crucially take responsibility for) the key decisions. I believe the Ladybird My First Book of Business will give you that information.

 

But Alpine skilfully ignores that and off he goes rant rant rant rant likes he's uncovered Watergate, when in fact he looks utterly ridiculous.

 

No change there then.

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[INFLUENCED.COM]

If he was doing that he'd be in breach of the accounting code of ethics, and could have his membership revoked.

 

OK, sorry, didn't realise, he will not have done anything like that then.

[dubai_phil]

Sorry to drop a fact into another inter-fan row.

 

But I think that you'll find that the Execs of SLH actually DID point out to the shareholders and fans that we were in the financial pooh the day before an important match last season.

 

The reaction of the players and GB appeared to be to give up, the fans went beserk and the "secret" meetings of Wilde Lowe & Crouch were held that eventually led to the execs "deciding" to resign.

 

So it would appear that only 10 months or so ago the Directors (and I assume Jones must have prepared the figures) pointed out that we were in trouble and they were blown away in a wave of "it's ok we live in la la land now"

 

So let's not allow the fact that he appears to have actually done his job stand in the way of a thread that says he could be in breach of the accounting code of ethics.

 

Jeez guys I'm not defending him as I have No idea whether he is any good or not, but come on, we know we are in trouble and these selective memories just make the whole negativity a whole lot worse

[La BoIS Saint]

Who's going to be the subject of tomorrow's thread? We're running out of contenders.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

Who's going to be the subject of tomorrow's thread? We're running out of contenders.

 

Woggy was there throughout !!! was that why he was 'let go' ???

[alpine_saint]

LOL at Alpine taking some moral high ground on a thread he started on the back of the opinions of Chester Perry/UTS/Mille Miglia clueless schizo Matty Paul. LOL, LOL and LOL again.

 

I wonder when Alpine is going to swallow the dull, but blindingly and pathetically obvious point that the decisions in companies are the responsibility of the cheif exec/chairman, and not the Financial Director.

 

The FD can provide the info, but ultimately they don't make (or crucially take responsibility for) the key decisions. I believe the Ladybird My First Book of Business will give you that information.

 

But Alpine skilfully ignores that and off he goes rant rant rant rant likes he's uncovered Watergate, when in fact he looks utterly ridiculous.

 

No change there then.

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Really ? I though 'ole Rupey makes a big point about collective decision making ?? He certainly did where re-employing Hoddle was concerned.

 

Or was that a lie ???

 

LOL LOL, LOL and LOL again

 

:rolleyes:

[dubai_phil]

Who's going to be the subject of tomorrow's thread? We're running out of contenders.

 

I think I've got one:-)

[benjii]

LOL at Alpine taking some moral high ground on a thread he started on the back of the opinions of Chester Perry/UTS/Mille Miglia clueless schizo Matty Paul. LOL, LOL and LOL again.

 

I wonder when Alpine is going to swallow the dull, but blindingly and pathetically obvious point that the decisions in companies are the responsibility of the cheif exec/chairman, and not the Financial Director.

 

The FD can provide the info, but ultimately they don't make (or crucially take responsibility for) the key decisions. I believe the Ladybird My First Book of Business will give you that information.

 

But Alpine skilfully ignores that and off he goes rant rant rant rant likes he's uncovered Watergate, when in fact he looks utterly ridiculous.

 

No change there then.

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Very skilfully done CB.

 

Sorry to drop a fact into another inter-fan row.

 

But I think that you'll find that the Execs of SLH actually DID point out to the shareholders and fans that we were in the financial pooh the day before an important match last season.

 

The reaction of the players and GB appeared to be to give up, the fans went beserk and the "secret" meetings of Wilde Lowe & Crouch were held that eventually led to the execs "deciding" to resign.

 

So it would appear that only 10 months or so ago the Directors (and I assume Jones must have prepared the figures) pointed out that we were in trouble and they were blown away in a wave of "it's ok we live in la la land now"

 

So let's not allow the fact that he appears to have actually done his job stand in the way of a thread that says he could be in breach of the accounting code of ethics.

 

Jeez guys I'm not defending him as I have No idea whether he is any good or not, but come on, we know we are in trouble and these selective memories just make the whole negativity a whole lot worse

 

Indeed.

[View From The Top]

Some bloke on TUI called "Chester Perry" keeps banging on about Dave Jone's culpability in the complete financial mess SFC faces.

 

Chester Perry, or Matt Paul, is one of the most deluded morons to ever follow SFC.

 

He is nothing more than a plastic casual, with a big mouth, how lives in his own Walter Mitty world.

 

he's also doing his best to avoid certain Saints fans who would like to have words with him.

 

It's fair to say that I think he's a walking, talking, breathing @rsehole.

[Redondo Saint]

It's a bit weak though, isnt it ? He's supposed to be the gatekeeper with fiduciary responsibilities.

 

You are assuming that he did something wrong or had failed in his fiduciary duties.

 

During his employment the club/company have not traded insolvently and neither has it filed for administration.

 

How about blaming the car park attendant for allowing all those 'bad people' to park?

[Redondo Saint]

Chester Perry, or Matt Paul, is one of the most deluded morons to ever follow SFC.

 

He is nothing more than a plastic casual, with a big mouth, how lives in his own Walter Mitty world.

 

he's also doing his best to avoid certain Saints fans who would like to have words with him.

 

It's fair to say that I think he's a walking, talking, breathing @rsehole.

 

but Alpine wants to believe him!! LOL

[fos1]

Wasn't Wilde "slagging" down Jones 6 months ago, saying he was not up to the job?

 

Should have heard what Wilde was saying about Lowe now his new best friend !!!

[70's Mike]

Shoot the bloody lot of the incompetents

[ottery st mary]

You are assuming that he did something wrong or had failed in his fiduciary duties.

 

During his employment the club/company have not traded insolvently and neither has it filed for administration.

 

How about blaming the car park attendant for allowing all those 'bad people' to park?

 

Bring back Chalkie White he new how to keep rif raf out of our club car parks.

[Redondo Saint]

Bring back Chalkie White he new how to keep rif raf out of our club car parks.

 

too right, he told me off a couple of times!!

[dubai_phil]

OK so it is now tomorrow over here so here is todays NEW blame game post

 

It's all Jeff Mostyn's fault.

 

You see all last summer and early parts of the season we had a veritable procession of Tyre Kickers being dragged screaming to the front door of SMS by "uber-salesman" LLS.

 

Day in and day out there was nothing but bidders fighting bidders to buy the dream of the global Saints Brand and the David Beckham schools of excellence.

 

Each day a new hope burned bright, allowing our Directors to realise that THE deal was just around the corner so spend spend spend and keep the fans happy and GB in the de Vere Bar Bills (allegedly)

 

But then the evil Mostyn lured LLS to bring his brand of excellence in takeover deals to Bournemouth and lo and behold, the flood dried up. LLS was happily installed as the man to take Bournemouth into the PL, his tyre kickers flooded after him, leaving us with only Leon and his dreams of Salz.

 

Yep we went from spending money because so many people wanted to buy us to oh sh*t we're skint in a matter of weeks.

 

So ladies and gentlemen, our current mess is all due to Mostyn if he hadn't diverted the uber-takeover expert...

 

Curtains for Bournemouth and maybe just some roller blinds for us to cover the corners.

 

Who's turn is it on Friday?

 

Oh that's an easy one then:-)