Ifs-Ands-& Buts, If We Score That PK

[TijuanaTim]

We're playing for fourth bottom at Forest, after Norwich lost tonight....oh well.

[Saint Martini]

Come on Tim, we had this discussion Saturday.

[Papa Shango]

We'd be playing for 10 points in League 1 for next season.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Had we beaten Burnley 3-2 we would still be in with a shout so had the ref given the free kick for the Wotton foul and played the 60 seconds still on the clock then who knows.

[Whitey Grandad]

Had we beaten Burnley 3-2 we would still be in with a shout so had the ref given the free kick for the Wotton foul and played the 60 seconds still on the clock then who knows.

We've had a whole season to get the extra points that we needed. Let's not pick on the last minute of the last home game.

[TijuanaTim]

Come on Tim, we had this discussion Saturday.

 

Sorry mate...frustration FFS

[Arizona]

We'd have jsut f*cked it up at Forest anyway. This team has had dosens of chances to pull themselves out of this mess, but never showed the belief to do it.

[ooohTerryHurlock]

We'd have jsut f*cked it up at Forest anyway. This team has had dosens of chances to pull themselves out of this mess, but never showed the belief to do it.

 

The dropped pints have littered our season

 

not beating

 

Derby

Qpr

Charlton

Forest

Watford

Blackpool

Doncaster

Burnley

Coventry

Plymouth

 

 

at home..... not taking our chances - we were just simply not good enough

 

end of

[Arizona]

Don't forget the leads we threw away at home to Reading, Birmingham, Swansea and Ipswich.

[eelpie]

The dropped pints have littered our season

at home..... not taking our chances - we were just simply not good enough

end of

 

Surely your not suggesting the team were out clubbing the night before

[Wes Tender]

We've had a whole season to get the extra points that we needed. Let's not pick on the last minute of the last home game.

 

Why not, Whitey?

 

There are those on here who express the opinion that Pearson only saved us 20 minutes from the end of the Sheffield United game and won't have it that every other game played up to that time had no bearing on their stupid reasoning.

[OldNick]

Why not, Whitey?

 

There are those on here who express the opinion that Pearson only saved us 20 minutes from the end of the Sheffield United game and won't have it that every other game played up to that time had no bearing on their stupid reasoning.

NP did not save us 20 minutes from time it was Leicesters inability and coventry not to get their required results on the day.The games leading up to that showed with a better squad less wins than Wotte achieved as manager.Scary eh?

[Whitey Grandad]

NP did not save us 20 minutes from time it was Leicesters inability and coventry not to get their required results on the day.The games leading up to that showed with a better squad less wins than Wotte achieved as manager.Scary eh?

None of that scares me now, it's all history. It's next season that's looking gloomy. What we can say is that Leicester were poorer than us last season and probably better than us this.

[OldNick]

None of that scares me now, it's all history. It's next season that's looking gloomy. What we can say is that Leicester were poorer than us last season and probably better than us this.

Yep you are right we need to focus if we have a club on the future.I feel quite ill thinking about all the past goons we have had the misfortune to run the club for a couple of decades or so

[Wes Tender]

NP did not save us 20 minutes from time it was Leicesters inability and coventry not to get their required results on the day.The games leading up to that showed with a better squad less wins than Wotte achieved as manager.Scary eh?

 

There are games that define a season, like for example when we were 3-0 up against Leeds and lost 4-3, threw away points in the last few minutes against WBA, Crouch should have kept the ball in the corner and run the clock down, etc. But in each case, it is futile taking just one or two games in isolation. Had we gained points elsewhere, those defining moments would have been irelevant.

[slickmick]

NP did not save us 20 minutes from time it was Leicesters inability and coventry not to get their required results on the day.The games leading up to that showed with a better squad less wins than Wotte achieved as manager.Scary eh?

 

Where as the inability of Norwich, Barnsley and Forest have all made it easy for us to go into the last game with the points deduction fate in our hands, until the great Wotte let the great DMG take another sh1te penalty.

 

Now what other hero of yours made that mistake ?

Edited 28 April, 2009 by slickmick

[Whitey Grandad]

There are games that define a season, like for example when we were 3-0 up against Leeds and lost 4-3, threw away points in the last few minutes against WBA, Crouch should have kept the ball in the corner and run the clock down, etc. But in each case, it is futile taking just one or two games in isolation. Had we gained points elsewhere, those defining moments would have been irelevant.

Nobody ever mentions all the 0-0 draws against the likes of Middlesbrough.

[The9]

The thing that annoyed me the most was that in the time between the penalty being given at 2-1 up and McGoldrick missing it I'd already worked out that a 2 goal win would have been the difference between "just" needing to beat Forest, and actually needing to beat Forest by 2 goals to overturn their goal difference advantage, which *I think* would have been the situation with a 1-goal win (I haven't checked since, naturally).

 

Of course by doing that little calculation I doomed McGoldrick to miss it and us to concede another goal anyway. Or does it just always seem like it ?

 

:mad:

[OldNick]

Where as the inability of Norwich, Barnsley and Forest have all made it easy for us to go into the last game with the points deduction fate in our hands, until the great Wotte let the great DMG take another sh1te penalty.

 

Now what ever hero of yours made that mistake ?

Are you suggesting I adore Wotte Lol. So who should have taken the penalty. DMG had scored the last one against Cardiff.

Your arguement could also be said about last season it was down to us losing against burnley at home that it wasnt in our hands anymore.you see we have had an incompetant group of players for many years now, if they had been 3 points clear with 2 games to go you know they'd lose them both and go down.Thats saints for you

[Whitey Grandad]

The thing that annoyed me the most was that in the time between the penalty being given at 2-1 up and McGoldrick missing it I'd already worked out that a 2 goal win would have been the difference between "just" needing to beat Forest, and actually needing to beat Forest by 2 goals to overturn their goal difference advantage, which *I think* would have been the situation with a 1-goal win (I haven't checked since, naturally).

 

Of course by doing that little calculation I doomed McGoldrick to miss it and us to concede another goal anyway. Or does it just always seem like it ?

 

:mad:

No, it's your fault. McGoldrick obviously spotted you working out the scores and it distracted him. It's the same when the players spot that I haven't brought my lucky keyring.

[OldNick]

Nobody ever mentions all the 0-0 draws against the likes of Middlesbrough.

do you mean 2-2 draws???

[madsent]

Just ****es me off we always make the same mistakes. Did anyone think he'd score that penalty really? People will say it would damage his confidence to not let him, but screw that, it damages saints far more to miss. Wasn't as bad as letting Best take one in the playoffs, but still bloody stupid. A player who can't strike a ball cleanly and has missed penalties before, in a huge pressure situation.

 

I thought Wotton could have taken it, he has a better record and would have probably just put some power behind it. DMGs was like a backpass.

 

I believe Wotton was 0/1 in penalties for us, Surman was 1/2 and McGoldrick was 3/4 for the season before the Burnley game. I had no problem with him taking it. In the end it was a poor penalty but he had the guts to take it in the first place. The fact that we missed 4 from 7 at home tells a story of the season. We had the chances to win many more games but couldn't put the ball in the net. Euell and Saganowski must have gone on the longest goalless drought for a pair of strikers playing together for us since Moody and Dowie.

[Wes Tender]

The McGoldrick factor has been influential to our relegation one way or another. Blame must be heaped onto the shoulders of hapless Jan for playing just him up front for a large section of the season. He was too young and inexperienced to be given that responsibility in the first place, but did not have enough about him anyway to produce much threat to rival teams all by himself.

 

And then, as others have pointed out, he isn't even a very good penalty taker. Here is another failure at management level, that we still have contact with arguably the greatest penalty taker in modern history, who has not been out of the game for long and yet we hear no anecdotal evidence that he has been asked to coach our players in the art, even though he obviously still bleeds red and white. Of course, had his coaching in penalty taking been exploited much earlier, we might well have been back in the Premiership instead of Derby a couple of seasons ago, as well as having the extra points on the board that we dropped from this and other missed penalties this season.

[OldNick]

The McGoldrick factor has been influential to our relegation one way or another. Blame must be heaped onto the shoulders of hapless Jan for playing just him up front for a large section of the season. He was too young and inexperienced to be given that responsibility in the first place, but did not have enough about him anyway to produce much threat to rival teams all by himself.

 

And then, as others have pointed out, he isn't even a very good penalty taker. Here is another failure at management level, that we still have contact with arguably the greatest penalty taker in modern history, who has not been out of the game for long and yet we hear no anecdotal evidence that he has been asked to coach our players in the art, even though he obviously still bleeds red and white. Of course, had his coaching in penalty taking been exploited much earlier, we might well have been back in the Premiership instead of Derby a couple of seasons ago, as well as having the extra points on the board that we dropped from this and other missed penalties this season.

No different than the Saga factor who has not scored for weeks or Rudi who has just goon through the motions, worried he might get injured before getting a move IMO.

Yes Jan made a mistake in playing 1 up front, if he had gone for 2 up front then things may have been different.To blame a 21yr old inexperienced player for our woes is pretty low IMO. It took guts for him to step up and take the pen versus Cardiff all the experienced players went missing then and just left him to it.Sadly i dont think there was ap lyer out there who I d be confident to score, althoug KD may have been a good bet

[SFC Forever]

Get the pen in and we'd all love Lowe???????????????

[Wes Tender]

No different than the Saga factor who has not scored for weeks or Rudi who has just goon through the motions, worried he might get injured before getting a move IMO.

Yes Jan made a mistake in playing 1 up front, if he had gone for 2 up front then things may have been different.To blame a 21yr old inexperienced player for our woes is pretty low IMO. It took guts for him to step up and take the pen versus Cardiff all the experienced players went missing then and just left him to it.Sadly i dont think there was ap lyer out there who I d be confident to score, althoug KD may have been a good bet

 

Did I blame McGoldrick for not being up to it, or that out of his depth Dutch idiot from the lower divisions of a foreign league for playing a system that relied heavily on the inexperienced and lightweight youngster?

 

And again, did I blame McGoldrick for missing the penalty, or the management for not utilising the consultation in training of quite possibly the best penalty taker in the modern British game?

[SFC Forever]

Ifs buts and maybe's don't a season make.

What we need now is some news regarding the purchase, and plans for next season.

[OldNick]

Did I blame McGoldrick for not being up to it, or that out of his depth Dutch idiot from the lower divisions of a foreign league for playing a system that relied heavily on the inexperienced and lightweight youngster?

 

And again, did I blame McGoldrick for missing the penalty, or the management for not utilising the consultation in training of quite possibly the best penalty taker in the modern British game?

No but the thrust of your post uses DMG as the fall guy. Yes you said Jan's mistake but it is a veiled critisism of DMG's ability. You can practice taking penalties all day long but on the day in front of a crowd it is totally different. We all have seen some great/reliable/household names miss penalties over the years, saturday was 1 more.

[Wes Tender]

No but the thrust of your post uses DMG as the fall guy. Yes you said Jan's mistake but it is a veiled critisism of DMG's ability. You can practice taking penalties all day long but on the day in front of a crowd it is totally different. We all have seen some great/reliable/household names miss penalties over the years, saturday was 1 more.

 

I'll quite happily come from behind the veiled attack and give it the full frontal if you like. McGoldrick was not up to the lone striker role and neither has he been a prolific enough striker this season, as his finishing is nowhere near as lethal as it ought to be, either in open play, or from the penalty spot.

 

But as I said, it was the responsibility of the manager to have realised that and to have played somebody alongside him, or to coach penalties. Obviously it was not McGoldrick's fault that he was not up to it quite yet this last season, or that the weight of expectation was placed on his shoulders because we shipped out all three of the senior and more effective strikers.

 

Hopefully, if he stays, he will have found his level in the third division and if he shines there, he might justify being bought to play at a higher level later.

[Whitey Grandad]

do you mean 2-2 draws???

That's why I said 'likes of'. It's all fading from my memory now (painfully and slowly) but I seem to remember that there was a run of games in October / November that we needed to get about 9 points from and we failed. I'm sure there was a 0-0 in there somewhere, but the point I'm trying to make is that the first game is as important as the last. It's the same with long-term projects. Everybody panics in the last couple of weeks whereas what they should do is panic at the beginning and put their feet up a the end.

[Window Cleaner]

But Tim our season has entirely consisted of ifs and buts.

If any of our overated and over payed players could convert 30% of ther simple chances presented to them we'd be OK even with the 10 point penalty.

 

We have missed at least 25 howlers this season including 4 penalties,about 15 one on ones by BWP, Euell putting 'just wide from 8 yards' Lallana half scuffing the ball twice in the same match when a simple sidefoot would have got the job done and Surman missing 2 sitters in consecutive matches.

 

Those were chances that no professional footballer should miss, Pahars,Beattie

Moran or Kev Davies would have buried all of them without a second thought.

[slickmick]

I'll quite happily come from behind the veiled attack and give it the full frontal if you like. McGoldrick was not up to the lone striker role and neither has he been a prolific enough striker this season, as his finishing is nowhere near as lethal as it ought to be, either in open play, or from the penalty spot.

 

But as I said, it was the responsibility of the manager to have realised that and to have played somebody alongside him, or to coach penalties. Obviously it was not McGoldrick's fault that he was not up to it quite yet this last season, or that the weight of expectation was placed on his shoulders because we shipped out all three of the senior and more effective strikers.

 

Hopefully, if he stays, he will have found his level in the third division and if he shines there, he might justify being bought to play at a higher level later.

 

 

Views that match mine.

[OldNick]

I'll quite happily come from behind the veiled attack and give it the full frontal if you like. McGoldrick was not up to the lone striker role and neither has he been a prolific enough striker this season, as his finishing is nowhere near as lethal as it ought to be, either in open play, or from the penalty spot.

 

But as I said, it was the responsibility of the manager to have realised that and to have played somebody alongside him, or to coach penalties. Obviously it was not McGoldrick's fault that he was not up to it quite yet this last season, or that the weight of expectation was placed on his shoulders because we shipped out all three of the senior and more effective strikers.

 

Hopefully, if he stays, he will have found his level in the third division and if he shines there, he might justify being bought to play at a higher level later.

IMO DMG scored as many as could be expected from a raw forward .Of course had the club been still rolling in money SJ etc could have been used but we didnt have the funds to do so.Saga came back scored a few then dried up. A big wage means nothing in front of goal.

[Victor]

This thread's a load of ******** anyway - it's 3rd bottom we are playing for.

[swastika eyes]

Tim, please don't call it a PK, it ain't soccer mush !

[Evil Monkey]

The dropped pints have littered our season

 

Derby

Qpr

Charlton

Forest

Watford

Blackpool

Doncaster

Burnley

Coventry

Plymouth

 

 

Thats appauling! I'd be gutted to drop just one pint. Do you have arthritis?

[madsent]

Did I blame McGoldrick for not being up to it, or that out of his depth Dutch idiot from the lower divisions of a foreign league for playing a system that relied heavily on the inexperienced and lightweight youngster?

 

And again, did I blame McGoldrick for missing the penalty, or the management for not utilising the consultation in training of quite possibly the best penalty taker in the modern British game?

 

Penalty taking is about nerve for most players. MLT has the technique to put the ball exactly where he wants to and the confidence that his technique won't let him down. I don't think his style of taking penalties would be easy to teach. Graham Alexander has a comparable penalty record for Burnley and Preston and has nowhere near the level of skill of MLT. Someone like him would probably be a better penalty coach than MLT.

[Professor]

Fantstic hindsight in some of these posts. DMG was a prolific scorer in the reserves. If you don't give a player like that a chance to do the same in the first team then Shearer and Le Tiss would never have had their chances either. You cant say whether a player will reach that standard until he does, and it needs more than a couple of games to find out. It doesn't make sense to blame the manager when these things cannot be predicted.

As for the past two seasons, last year's squad and this years, neither have been good enough to compete in the CCC - so if the managers are to blame its all four of them, not just Poortvleit. The so called 'big names' on high wages left behind by Burley were no better (except for about 1 place in the table) than the so called 'kids' who replaced them, although I'm not sure that Wooton and Perry qualify as kids....

[Griffo]

McGoldrick has been top quality in the hole recently. Against Watford he looked a class above the rest. He will **** all over League One.

[70's Mike]

McGoldrick has been top quality in the hole recently. Against Watford he looked a class above the rest. He will **** all over League One.

 

put the jinx on him

imo we should approach the next season, if there is one, with humility keep our gobs shut, especialy the manager, and do our talking on the pitch.

every team we play is going to see SMS as there Wembley and unless the team is up for it we will struggle.

a half decent start and crowds of 20k plus are likely and as long as the budget regarding wages to players has been constructed correctly we should be able to attract and afford decent div one players.

in many ways back in the mid 60's the club had a good average attendance, a good income and spent it wisely, Ron Davies being the classic example, we need owners and a manager to work within those paramenters again by div one standards we are still a big club

[SFC Forever]

70's Mike I like your last sentence. I agree that as far as Division 1 goes we will be a big fish. And yes we will be there to be shot at by all the other teams in the league. Even more important than a good start is any start, because that will mean we are still alive. That alone should give us hope for the future.

Edited 29 April, 2009 by SFC Forever

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Strange stat of the day - David McGoldrick has scored more goals than Kevin Phillips this season .

 

http://www.4thegame.com/football-statistics/championship/topscorers/

[Wes Tender]

Fantstic hindsight in some of these posts. DMG was a prolific scorer in the reserves. If you don't give a player like that a chance to do the same in the first team then Shearer and Le Tiss would never have had their chances either. You cant say whether a player will reach that standard until he does, and it needs more than a couple of games to find out. It doesn't make sense to blame the manager when these things cannot be predicted.

As for the past two seasons, last year's squad and this years, neither have been good enough to compete in the CCC - so if the managers are to blame its all four of them, not just Poortvleit. The so called 'big names' on high wages left behind by Burley were no better (except for about 1 place in the table) than the so called 'kids' who replaced them, although I'm not sure that Wooton and Perry qualify as kids....

 

There have been numerous examples of players who score hatfuls of goals in the reserves; it means nothing, as the step up to the first team and playing in a proper league match and in front of a large crowd with the attendant pressures is a big one.

 

Yes, of course players showing promise in the reserves deserve a chance. Decent managers introduce them to the higher level gradually, to enhance their development slowly. They don't throw them in at the deep end to either sink or swim. And then a decent manager will have a balance in his team between raw kids and older more experienced hands, often with a decent spine of those more experienced players.

 

As Poortvliet did not do any of the things I mentioned above, I'll place the blame squarely on his shoulders if I feel like it. At the same time, I'll blame the idiot ex-chairman for appointing the incompetant idiot manager. Between the two of them, they almost guaranteed our current demise, especially as the idiot ex-chairman had a much better and more sensible manager here already, did not know when to dismiss the incompetant one and then replaced him with his deputy, who likewise had little or no idea how football worked in this country and at this level.

 

Last season we survived, so patently the team was good enough to compete in the CCC, although only just. This year of course, it isn't. But when you claim that some had fantastic hindsight, you ignore that many posters on here, me included, predicted that Lowe's bizarre experiment would lead most likely lead us to be relegated.

[OldNick]

This year of course, it isn't. But when you claim that some had fantastic hindsight, you ignore that many posters on here, me included, predicted that Lowe's bizarre experiment would lead most likely lead us to be relegated.

it didnt need much foresight to realise that but many decided to get behind the team and club and hope we could avoid relegation.the terrible financial situation the club was in dictated it. it is pointless going round and round the reasons of the financial issues as it has been done to death.

Some chose to cause unrest that unsettled the club and players when they needed the utmost support others didnt.It is a free world and you have your choice which way to go.

The fact is few thought we'd do well but most shrugged their shoulders and were pragmatic enough to reaqlise they may as well go with it as there was little choice.

NP being released was a massive mistake and RL is now licking his wounds for doing so. that decision has personally cost him a lot of money and so he got the rightful penalty. We sadly have to get on with it, but I have no doubt had we had the lot before we would be in the same positin but brought on us erlier as the wage bill would not have been slashewed so much.

IMHO of course

[Wes Tender]

it didnt need much foresight to realise that but many decided to get behind the team and club and hope we could avoid relegation.the terrible financial situation the club was in dictated it. it is pointless going round and round the reasons of the financial issues as it has been done to death.

Some chose to cause unrest that unsettled the club and players when they needed the utmost support others didnt.It is a free world and you have your choice which way to go.

The fact is few thought we'd do well but most shrugged their shoulders and were pragmatic enough to reaqlise they may as well go with it as there was little choice.

NP being released was a massive mistake and RL is now licking his wounds for doing so. that decision has personally cost him a lot of money and so he got the rightful penalty. We sadly have to get on with it, but I have no doubt had we had the lot before we would be in the same positin but brought on us erlier as the wage bill would not have been slashewed so much.

IMHO of course

 

I'm all for drawing a line under the events of the past few seasons, indeed the past decade or more and moving on. Provided that we're still going as a club, I'll renew both of my STs and might well go to some of the away matches too, especially as we have several local ones. Whether we might have avoided this situation with Pearson still here, is pure conjecture, but I'm glad for him that he has been a success since leaving us and has pointed the way to what we might achieve provided that we have an owner/s that can finance us.

 

In many ways I'm far more confident and optimistic about our future now than I was one year ago at the end of that season, as soon as I knew that Lowe and Wilde were returning and that Pearson would go.