is this Karma...?

Not unless you believe people should receive the death penalty for robbery, no it is isn't.

Of course he shouldn't have been robbing the place, but did he deserve to die for his actions?

While I understand what you mean, I don't believe 'karma' will be restored.

The yoghurt knitters will be heavily involved in this case and I guarantee that one of the people who tackled the masked gunman will be charged with manslaugther or something similar.

It's a shame, they should just leave it as is : gunman with mask dies trying to rob a bookies. Sadly the final headline will be : innocent bystander trying to protect bookies from masked gunman goes to prison for 20 years for trying to help

Without knowing the full facts I presume he's died of asphyxiation after being pinned down, if so, then it's going to be interesting to see what the Police/CPS do next.

You can't really blame people for sitting on top of a gun toting, gas masked up raider, but at the same time someone has died here.

Common sense says a decision not to prosecute any of the Good Samaritans should be made quickly.

"For all those who take the sword will perish by the sword"

He was asking for trouble. He took a gun (or replica) with him in order to instil fear in those he confronted and that fear has led to his death. Divine retribution, some would call it.

And prople wonder why nobody is prepared to help prevent crime if the result is you get prosecuted yourself. If they prosecute any of the people who tried to stop the gunman, its another death nail in society. Would not be suprised to see the gunmans family try to sue the people that stopped him for unlawful death or preventing him going about his business.

No, there is no such thing as Karma.

As for the death, I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. But I suppose you do put yourself in line for self-defence retaliation when you do such things.

As for the case of what I suppose would be classed as manslaughter? I hope it isn't though, is there anyone versed in law here? Surely you are allowed to use self defence? There was a recent case of self defence where the defendant got off - http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/yourtown/abingdon/9651713.Academic_cleared_of_killing_best_friend/ If it is so in that situation, I can't see how anyone in this situation would face jail.

I find it difficult to feel sorry for the guy, at least he won't be robbing any banks again!

Not unless you believe people should receive the death penalty for robbery, no it is isn't.

 

Of course he shouldn't have been robbing the place, but did he deserve to die for his actions?

What a load of nonsense. It's totally different to the death penalty. He took out a gun with at very least the purpose of using it to cause maximum fear to his victims. IF you go out to commit a crime with firearms then you get what you deserve.

IF you go out to commit a crime with firearms then you get what you deserve.

Does this mean if he goes home with twenty grand from the bookies, he also got what he deserved?

Glad he is dead, the scum.

We don't know the full facts, but I expect he was giving a shoeing, rather than just being 'restrained'

I would have joined in to if I had been there.

What a load of nonsense. It's totally different to the death penalty. He took out a gun with at very least the purpose of using it to cause maximum fear to his victims. IF you go out to commit a crime with firearms then you get what you deserve.

Isn't that the point though? We're trying to work out what he deserves aren't we?

Given that there are very few facts about it it's difficult to say what he deserves. What if he'd tried to surrender himself, given up the gun, but mob rule took over and they beat him to death? Did he get what he deserves in those circumstances?

Isn't that the point though? We're trying to work out what he deserves aren't we?

 

Given that there are very few facts about it it's difficult to say what he deserves. What if he'd tried to surrender himself, given up the gun, but mob rule took over and they beat him to death? Did he get what he deserves in those circumstances?

he didnt surrender himself..he was wrestled to the ground as the punters in there feared for their lives...

mob rule took over with regards to the inherent right to self defence and the preservation of life...tragically, he was killed by accident

Once you go out into the world with a firearm with intent to use it - even if only to put fear into people - you lose your rights

Isn't that the point though? We're trying to work out what he deserves aren't we?

 

Given that there are very few facts about it it's difficult to say what he deserves. What if he'd tried to surrender himself, given up the gun, but mob rule took over and they beat him to death? Did he get what he deserves in those circumstances?

He got what he deserved. He didn't go out with a gun to tickle someone with it did he!! At the very least he was using it to cause maximum fear and intimidation. This was a premeditated crime that involved firearms. If you're prepared to kill or seriously injure to commit a crime then accept that could happen to you. If you lot say 'mob rule' is innocent people protecting themselves and their communities from armed criminals then I'm all for it.

Once you go out into the world with a firearm with intent to use it - even if only to put fear into people - you lose your rights

Spot on Joe.

At least it saved the Police the trouble of shooting him.

He got what he deserved. He didn't go out with a gun to tickle someone with it did he!! At the very least he was using it to cause maximum fear and intimidation. This was a premeditated crime that involved firearms. If you're prepared to kill or seriously injure to commit a crime then accept that could happen to you. If you lot say 'mob rule' is innocent people protecting themselves and their communities from armed criminals then I'm all for it.

Who are "you lot"? I don't represent any one.

Fair enough if the guy is waving his gun around in people's faces and someone wraps a metal bar round his head. I get that, no problem. We don't know what happened though. How would you feel if he had given up his gun, and three people jumped him and beat him to death? There must be a point at which justice takes over from self defence.

Who are "you lot"? I don't represent any one.

 

Fair enough if the guy is waving his gun around in people's faces and someone wraps a metal bar round his head. I get that, no problem. We don't know what happened though. How would you feel if he had given up his gun, and three people jumped him and beat him to death? There must be a point at which justice takes over from self defence.

he never

he never

That's probably true, but we don't actually know the facts do we?

That's probably true, but we don't actually know the facts do we?

I live not too far away....its common knowledge down here....he went in with a gun (have no idea if it was real/loaded) and wearing a gas mask...he was wrestled to the ground by the punters and restrained.....he died from what people are thinking is an underlying medical condition...although, that bit is speculation

Well there's obviously no such thing as Karma, so the answer is no. The case needs to be investigated before anyone can form an opinion though - how did the chap die, was the death attributable to any individual (he could have just had a heart attack), was unnecessary force used, what drove the bloke to do this, did he act alone, was he known to any other person in the shop that day.... the list goes on.

Appreciate that it's always fun to form a knee jerk opinion based on scant details but I'd rather wait till we know a little more. Clearly if the chap brought a gun into a shop (replica or not) then he should expect a reasonable amount of force - and it's doubtful many juries or judges would convict anyone who caused death in the act of self defence (on the face of it this doesn't sound like the Tony Martin case).

Who are "you lot"? I don't represent any one.

 

Fair enough if the guy is waving his gun around in people's faces and someone wraps a metal bar round his head. I get that, no problem. We don't know what happened though. How would you feel if he had given up his gun, and three people jumped him and beat him to death? There must be a point at which justice takes over from self defence.

How would you,Bexy and the "he didnt deserve that" brigade feel if no one had done anything and he'd shot someone whilst commiting the robbery?

Without knowing the full facts I presume he's died of asphyxiation after being pinned down, if so, then it's going to be interesting to see what the Police/CPS do next.

 

You can't really blame people for sitting on top of a gun toting, gas masked up raider, but at the same time someone has died here.

Sounds pretty plausable, not helped by the fact he had a bloomin gas mask on.

If that's the case, nobody will be prosecuted. In my opinion the law and CPS usually get this sort of stuff right.

What on earth are you talking about?

Who said anything about doing nothing?

Do you want me to make it easier for you? Until you know the facts, you can't say what he did or didn't deserve. Unless of course, you are into knee jerk reactions or you think that justice is something for the man in the street to hand out.

If anyone gets prosecuted for this it's an absolute joke.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

Who said anything about doing nothing?

 

Do you want me to make it easier for you? Until you know the facts, you can't say what he did or didn't deserve. Unless of course, you are into knee jerk reactions or you think that justice is something for the man in the street to hand out.

Yes i can. A bloke went out with a gun to commit an armed robbery. Unfortunately for him it all went tits up and he got ironed out by locals defending themselves and their community. Thems the FACTS sunshine. Man carries dangerous weapon, man goes to commit crime, if man gets a hiding and it all comes on top for him - tough sh*t, he knew what he was doing, he knew the risks and people are within their rights to defend themselves against people carrying guns. No amount of bleating on about not knowing all the facts change that, unless you're happy for people to run around waving guns about and committing robberies.

One way to look at it is to consider peoples intention. If it is to restrain him until the police arrive and as a result he accidentally dies, then so be it (probably).

If their intention (with the gun on the other side of the room and the criminal on his back on the floor) is to give him the pasting he deserves for taking a f***ing liberty....and he dies. Then you might see people having to defend themselves in court.

Yes i can. A bloke went out with a gun to commit an armed robbery. Unfortunately for him it all went tits up and he got ironed out by locals defending themselves and their community. Thems the FACTS sunshine. Man carries dangerous weapon, man goes to commit crime, if man gets a hiding and it all comes on top for him - tough sh*t, he knew what he was doing, he knew the risks and people are within their rights to defend themselves against people carrying guns. No amount of bleating on about not knowing all the facts change that, unless you're happy for people to run around waving guns about and committing robberies.

Why on earth would I be happy for people to run around waving guns?

It would be nice to live in your world, every things so simple. Bad guy kill him.

How far do you go? People with knives? Baseball bats?ll

Why on earth would I be happy for people to run around waving guns?

 

It would be nice to live in your world, every things so simple. Bad guy kill him.

How far do you go? People with knives? Baseball bats?ll

so what do you think people should have done? You've offered no opinion yourself other than whine about not having all the facts. You seem incapable or unwilling to form an opinion based on the FACT that he tried robbing somewhere at gunpoint and ended up coming off worse. My world might seem simple to you, but the reaility is if people run around waving guns about and robbing businesses of hard earned cash then if it all goes wrong for them they only have themselves to blame. If he didnt try and rob a place at gun point he'd still be alive. whose fault is that?

Looks like its not the first time for this chap !!!

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Robber-aimed-gun-shop-staff/story-11503088-detail/story.html

Sadly the final headline will be : innocent bystander trying to protect bookies from masked gunman goes to prison for 20 years for trying to help

No, it b***dy won't be. Stop trying to make strawman arguments just so that you can fulminate against them. Of course they have to investigate, a man has died. Prossibly a very stupid and desperate one, possibly a nasty piece of work, but I'm prepared to wait for the investigation. I'd still be prepared to grab somebody's leg or arm if it had happened to me, and all bets would be off if I were in a rape situation.

so what do you think people should have done? You've offered no opinion yourself other than whine about not having all the facts. You seem incapable or unwilling to form an opinion based on the FACT that he tried robbing somewhere at gunpoint and ended up coming off worse. My world might seem simple to you, but the reaility is if people run around waving guns about and robbing businesses of hard earned cash then if it all goes wrong for them they only have themselves to blame. If he didnt try and rob a place at gun point he'd still be alive. whose fault is that?

I've already told you my opinion. If he's waving his gun in peoples faces then he's fair game to be whacked around the head and taken out. I agree that he only has himself to blame for being in that situation, but if someone has intentionally suffocated him whilst he was on the floor I'd say that wasn't acceptable and someone should face charges.

It's a shame, they should just leave it as is : gunman with mask dies trying to rob a bookies. Sadly the final headline will be : innocent bystander trying to protect bookies from masked gunman goes to prison for 20 years for trying to help

No they won't, the outcome's far too neat in the long-term.

I'd be very surprised if the police pressed charges, and even if they did the bystanders would be likely to get off on a technicality. The absolute worst any of the bystanders would get is a suspended sentence. That's assuming that there isn't more to the case that meets the eye and it is what it appears.

Quite ironic if he died of asphyxia when he was wearing a gas mask though.

Not unless you believe people should receive the death penalty for robbery, no it is isn't.

 

Of course he shouldn't have been robbing the place, but did he deserve to die for his actions?

Interesting topic really. I think it's reasonable to say that everyone else in that shop would have been "in fear of their life", so had they killed him in self defence we'd all be saying fair enough.

The law of unintended consequence rides again. He didn't think he would die when he planned the robbery and the good samaritans didn't think he would die when they tried to help.

As long as the above is the case then it should be left at that. If the samaritans thought they might teach him a lesson and went too far, then that's a different matter of course as I assume the 'do-gooders' will be banging the drums with their sanctimonious, self-righteous insistence upon upholding the law for the bad guys too.

Yes i can. A bloke went out with a gun to commit an armed robbery. Unfortunately for him it all went tits up and he got ironed out by locals defending themselves and their community. Thems the FACTS sunshine. Man carries dangerous weapon, man goes to commit crime, if man gets a hiding and it all comes on top for him - tough sh*t, he knew what he was doing, he knew the risks and people are within their rights to defend themselves against people carrying guns. No amount of bleating on about not knowing all the facts change that, unless you're happy for people to run around waving guns about and committing robberies.

'ironed out', 'comes on top' - hahaha. You're beyond parody. Tool.

'ironed out', 'comes on top' - hahaha. You're beyond parody. Tool.

So your only contribution to this thread is to have a pop at me, i think it's evident who the tool is.

Why is anyone even arguing this? Even if the gunman's death wasn't an accident... So what? He was carrying a gun to threaten people and rob...or worse. So if by standers decide to beat the **** out of him and he dies... Good.

This won't ever happen to me because I don't carry a gun, threaten people and rob... Because have a reasonable grasp on morality and value of life....It's really quite simple. Criminal gets killed committing crime... So? Good news as far as I'm concerned... One less social outcast wandering around potentially causing harm.

I've already told you my opinion. If he's waving his gun in peoples faces then he's fair game to be whacked around the head and taken out. I agree that he only has himself to blame for being in that situation, but if someone has intentionally suffocated him whilst he was on the floor I'd say that wasn't acceptable and someone should face charges.

exactly there is a big difference between the gunman being killed during a struggle and the gunman being restrained and disarmed and then someone deciding to strangle him to death. I don't feel sorry for the bloke either way but in the second scenario you've potentially got a member of the public appointing himself judge, jury and executioner and that can't be allowed.