John Smith

And with that, I think it shows that we 'both' want this club to succeed, and we both want good things for the future. Let's hope we are shoulder to shoulder on the terraces again soon and we can all show our support in the best way, by being there and shouting on the Saints to victory! COYR

Don;t think it's right to generalise on this. I don;t want Lowe here but I don;t want to go into administration either. At the beginning of the season, even though I chose not to attend any more, I still hoped that Lowe would be a success and get us near the play offs, like he said. I wish we were top of the league, I still wouldn't be going, but I don;t wish failure for this club. I think your confusing despair with joy. There woiuldn't be a smile on anyones face if we went into admin or if we got relegated. And I'm sorry if I p*ss in the wind at your theory that I'd be smiling, trust me, I wouldn't. But I guess it would be easy for me to call you a Lowe luvvie and generalise about any sexual activity you may have performed with him. But like your statement, it wouldn't be true and it would just be a cheap shot. So, I'm guessing, you're just as frustrated as me at 'our' predicament. And like me, wish we could see the way out. COYR

I do love it when posters do this. When I do this type of post, you can see the irony and the sarcasm in it. When somebody who really believes this type of post, actually posts it, it's even more ironic. OK, I'll jump passed all the old drivel and rhetoric, and say to you this OB: WHERE WERE YOU WHEN LOWE CAME BACK? DID YOU STANDUP FOR THIS THEN? WHERE IS LOWES INVESTMENT AND IF CROUCH ISN:T ANY BETTER THAN LOWE, WHY WAS IT OK FOR LOWE TO DEPOSE CROUCH? Where were all the sympathisers then? I'll tell you, on the OS lapping up the spin of this new wonderful experiment whilst ignoring that all the cost cutting proposed was already being implemented by Crouch or was due to be! You lot waste my time, L

I thought we had all moved on from these questions and it was more about the next step that people were getting annoyed about? Most, although some still obviously can't come to terms with his failure, stomp their feet and say 'there is nobody else', jeesh, think that he should go, and almost nobody knows him personally. So, I thought the main debate had been about how to remove him, or should we allow him the rope by which to hang himself with and keep on supporting 'the team', regardless of who is in charge? I thought the wranglings of the last month or so were between the Lowe out and the support the team crowds? Some have tried to bridge the gap and some try to offer an alternative view. At the end of the day, I believe that if the majority of fans spoke with their feet and didn;t go, Lowe would be forced out. Others see that as counter productive and think we should fill the stadium and help keep us up. Thus, making us more of an attractive purchase. Two things, I don't think Lowe will step aside, his pride or ego won;t let him, regardless of relegation or what not. Secondly, unless a Billionaire offers stupid money, I don;t see Lowe selling either. So that leaves me with the option, in my mind, to stay away until he leaves. Personally, judging from track record, Lowe isn't the man to dig us out of this hole. I don't think he understands quite what to do. He experiments without considering the consequence, gets rid of people out of spite and runs the show like a spoiled brat. And where as I understand people questioning a worthy replacement, I don;t think the bar has been set too high by Lowe in order for someone to come in, make a few changes and put us back on course again. This means action by the fans, for me, and without it, Lowe will stay and I will stay away.

Sounds like the fans need to get some vocal training in between games. Maybe an awareness coach could help?

Chrissy Nicholl's Red and White Army! Fans were very fickle in those days. Even in 1989, I remember going one down to Liverpool at home and the crowd were all chanting Nicholl out, I think we equalized late in the first half and through half time and most of the second half, we sang Chrissy Nicholls Red and White Army! Even some guy started off the OWTS with KNOCK KNOCK, who's there? We all replied, the next line is usually Owen, but out he came with Chrissy Nicholls red and white army, and off we went again. I think we won 2-1, could've been 3-1, but the second goal, I went from the back of the Milton right to the front! Awesome surge's in those days! I remember we were top of the League in November and CN won manager of the month. We were away to Wimbledon at Plough Lane (I was there also, home and away in those days!), and in the away part of the program, CN stated that he would not open the bottle of Champagne until our next win. That day we lost 2-1 and Tim Flowers scored an own goal with a diving header! It was another 22 games before we got our next win, a Neil Ruddock 89th minute penalty against Newcastle in the Milton end (slammed in high and to the keepers right). This effectively sent Newcastle down that season. Nail biting end to the season with some great away wins, noteably against Borough. But we could make things safe by beating Utd at home with our last home game. Went 1-0 down to a young Lee Sharp goal. But a young Rod Wallace, off a great run and through ball by Glenn ****erill, made it 2-1 with 6 mins to spare (can't recall who got the equalizer, Paul Rideout I think?), we went mental! Probably the biggest roar I'd ever heard at the Dell! Just on the Gerry Forrest thing, we also had an amazing left bck in Derek Statham, CB's of Russel Osmand, Neil Ruddock and Kevin Moore, midfielders of Glenn ****erill and Jimmy Case, Barry Horne. Danny Wallace, Rod Wallace (Ray had also played at the back), MLT, Paul Rideout and I'm trying to remember when Colin Clarke joined from Bournemouth, think it was at the start of the next season. Those were the days my friend...

If Lowe hadn't come back, we'd be in real financial difficulties. The fact that we're not bottom of the league goes to show that his decision to bring in JP and Wotte was correct. The loaning out of our top players to save on wages has made us financially secure and on the right footing to push forward in the later part of the season. Playing DMG every game has shown that his decision to loan out saga was spot on, many on here have shown how DMG, if carrying on at the same goal scoring rate, will be somewhere near the 20 a season mark that we all thought he would. Bringing the youth on has proved dividends, the likes of Lallana, has shown that playing every game at this level improves your sharpness and hones your skills and he will soon be sold so that we can pay the shareholders those dividends that they deserve by sticking with this club. I stand by my decision to write that letter to Lowe the day before the AGM as I speak on behalf of all Saints fans (the true Saints fans that still go) and I can;t wait for all of those shouting, clapping, aggressive ones to leave so that I can watch us climb this division in peace, without having to stand up to see us score, and only rising to applaud out brave soldiers off the pitch after another fine home win. Why oh why did we not bring back Lowe sooner, the futures bright, the futures red and white.

But you were up for given the Dutch management a go back in August. So, why would you have felt differently if Crouch had made that appointment. You should've been 'critical' of Lowe back then and you should be criticising him now. He's ballsed it up 'again'. There is no excuse, the guy is a liability. Stop pussy footing around and get behind the Lowe out campaign, there is nowhere else to go, Lowes had it, he's washed up, a has been and now this fan base needs to unite by ousting Lowe and getting behind whoever takes up the poison chalice. How much worse can it get? Surely our perilous position must tell you this, surely the lights have come on now, Lowe must go. See you at the next march...

Hypothetically speaking, if Crouch had remained and Pearson was still in charge and we were running away with this league would some of the idiots on here STILL be claiming that Lowe would do a better job? FACT IS, Lowe is cr*p, hates the fans, despises turning up and has now disassociated himself with football altogether. Brings in unproven substandard managers, loans out our best players to the opposition, claims that youth is the way to go, even though experienced pro's warned him against this, got into bed with the very person he believed to have been responsible for destroying the finances of this club and removing him from power. At the time when this club is in free fall, finances are pinnacle, balances need to be made, loanee's are being recalled, manager has resigned, a new one in place and a new assistant coach, where's Lowe - SKIING. You couldn't make it up could you. And then people like you have the audaciuty to ask a question like this. I ask you, would any other Chairman of any other club OR business come to that, act like this in a time of crisis? You;re have a larf, seriously, think about it, don;t make yourself look anymore stupid and ask anymore stupid questions, see it for what it really is - there were better options, there still are better options but every minute Lowe remains, our chances of relegation and administration get closer. LOWE OUT!

I totally agree with this. Do not be swayed by intimidation of the mindless few, if trouble does raise it's ugly head, dissassociate yourselves from it. It would not be beyond the realms of impossibility that supporters of Lowe will try to infiltrate the march and try and diminish it's purpose. If at all possible, turn the other cheek from abuse, do not abuse others and remember that the purpose is to march and show your strength and not to fight and show your weakness. As I can;t be bothered to quote nineteen canteens mails, because I feel his sanity is waning, taking on board his quote, we must remember this, from Lord Byron: "If we must have a tyrant, let him at least be a gentleman who has been bred to the business, and let us fall by the axe and not by the butcher s cleaver." IF Lowe were a gentleman, I'm sure there'd be no need for marches and many more would support the other cheek and support this team through thick and thin. BUT, he is not a gentleman, nor is he a leader, we have a right to show him that we disagree with him. He has ignored everything else up till now, it's time he listened to the fans. Blame is a negative thing, but lack of responsibility is a destructive thing and Lowes lack of responsibility to this club is nothing short of neglect. The players and coach's deserve better, the City of Southampton deserves better, this march must tell him that the Fans DEMAND better.

I see some have said Dowie for number 4, but didn't Barry Horne have a degree in something?

As much as I would like to be there with you guys tomorrow, work commitments have made it impossible, hence my slowness at putting my name down. But whilst I was sitting here working tonight, I had a moment of pen to paper and penned a song for you all, hope you like it, to the tune of my old mans a dustman: His name is Rupert J G Lowe He's the Chairman of the board But when Southamptons struggerling He's f*cking off abroad; He promised total football But sent out the reserves And now he wants our money He'll get what he deserves F*ck All, F*ck All, F*ck All, F*ck All...

Hahahahahah, I almost laughed my flippin head off at this thread! So Lowe continues his holidays in a luxurious ski resort at the most important time for our club. On the brink of administration, Manager resigned, players being brought in, players apparently looking to be sold to others, but no-one here to do the deal and get the money in. 2 days a week, hahahaha, and then he takes a holiday! I think Lowes the only man that invested in investment banking just as investment banks hit the wall! Did he also invest in Barings after having a chat with Nick Leeson! HAHAHAHAHA! let's recap, Lowe and Wilde gallop into Dodge (sorry SMS) to stave off administration (failing), push our way up the league and aim for promotion (failed), install 'Total Football' (failed), bring in the young with a balance of senior pro's and talented youngsters and reserves (failed). Was he going to bring the fans back? If he thought that, FAILED. Was he going to stop us from being relegated? Failing! Has he got £2mil to put into Saints? Even if he did, he wouldn;t, that's not an investment, that';s a risk, Lowe doesn;t do risk, he buys shares! Oh yeah, that brings me back to WH Ireland, risk or investment, you tell me! So, after 10years+ how much have we paid Lowe in Salary? Dividends? Bonuses? Expenses? How much stake does he have? And remind me EXACTLY how much this cost him in CASH? OK, let's now remind ourselves of what Wotte said on the back of his employment by Lowe, remembering that Wotte was brought in to work with JP and Hokaday in order to form continuity. SO where's that continuity we were told about and trumpetted from the rafters? Let's revisit Wottes statement: "At FC Den Haag I was working with a very good head coach, Co Adriaanse. He put the under-18s and the first team together and picked the best players for the first team from that pool of players. "You will be amazed to see that when young players get an opportunity to show themselves with the big players then their development can sometimes be very surprising. "Of course you can't win every match with 11 players of 18 years old. You need some guidance in the team and need some experienced players too, but the most important thing is that we have the desire to play attacking football. "I like players that want to fight for every ball and want to show the people that we have one aim and that is going back up as soon as possible." With the additional input of current Under 18s coach David Hockaday and Reserve team manager Stewart Henderson, Wotte hopes that the Dutch duo's Orange revoltion will help transform Saints' fortunes both on and off the pitch. He explained: "It will not be possible that we take a player on loan for three months when we have a good 17 or 18 year old player in the same position, because it might block his development. Both Mr Wilde and Mr Lowe have told us from day one that we have to look at the talents within the Club and give them time to play. "This is partly because of the financial situation but I also think it's healthy because fans like to see the young players fight for every minute and every ball. "Of course it's all about winning games. If you win games then everyone is happy but if you can win games with a team that can grow into the Premiership then that would be very very nice." HAHAHAHAHA! How times have changed! My suggestion, Lowe/Wilde sell your shares to Crouch for £1 and F*ck off! You are going to lose EVERYTHING anyway and take us down with you. Let a man who is willing to do something, do that something! And if he fails, at least he's failed with HIS money. Lastly, how much investment has Lowe brought in after 10 years + sweet F A! What about Wilde? HAHAHAHAHA! And you guys think we're better off with them and put Crouch down. YOU LOT NEED YOUR HEADS READ! Lowe is a failure and he's failing again, and what's he doing whilst Rome burns? Skiiing! Tells you everything really. You lot are well matched and deserve each other. at least you lot can meet up again this time next year at the Lowe love in! At least it'll replace SFC for you.

I cannot believe this site sometimes. Frank's now speaking for the 'majority' of the fans, or at least he's done some poll which backs up his claim. As for the rest of you, to think that this club and it's fanbase is in anyway united and is moving forward, I'm sad to say, that cloud you;re sitting on, is not real! As for him lining up a manager, maybe he spoike to someone, so that when he returned and if he returned, he was going to do what Lowe should've done, and that was to replace JP. Lowe has lined up Wotte, so does that make him his agent? Don;t talk wet and don;t be so delusional! Like I said before, when we go bust and nothing remains except for Lowe, you guys will have exactly what you deserved, one massive love in. Because unless we all act to remove this charlatan, who promised much and delivered sweet FA, Saints will die, get it, it will be no more. So, please, install it as manager rather than eating them, they are effecting your grasp on reality! Saints are going under and Lowe is captain of that ship. Rerplacing the captain will give us a 'glimmer' and I repeat a 'glimmer' of hope. Whereas sitting on our hands and ignoring the chatastophy that is going on all around us, will be the end for Saints. It's in your hands. (do I speak for the majority, I have no friggin idea!)

To all of you that think that they can forgive Lowe because he is the man to bring stability to this club, I say Thankyou. Thankyou for continually supporting this man that is the sole destroyer of this club. Wake up you fools! Do something about it! because I'm starting to think that you don;t really care! He's done it before, he's doing it now, he'll do it again. How many more times do you need to bend over, stop taking it, stand up for yourselves. I repeat myself for the umpteenth time this season 'the shareholders voted him in, BUT, it is the paying public that continue to give this man the MANDATE to rule, without that mandate, he has to go' It's up to you sympathisers now! You;re the only ones keeping him here. And if you continue to allow him to do this, then you;re welcome to each other. In two more seasons, you can all sit in his garden, whilst paying for the priviledge, holding a midnight vigile, because you won;t have a club to pay homage to your Lord and master. Makes me sick!

So, if JP decided to leave off his own back, why did he decide to step down? Surely if he was doing really badly, I dunno, like 1 home win in 14, surely someone in Lowes position would've been man enough to say enough is enough. But no, Lowe just hands him the gun, turns his back and waits for the bang. Lowe is a coward and a Charlatan!

On the back of this, and supposing things go belly up, can we create a new song, to be sung on the terraces that will remind the generations to come what it was like to support Saints in these dark days, maybe in the hope that they will be better off for being reminded?

So, was the mystery author of that infamous letter that Lowe was waving about at the AGM the MD of Barclays OR AVIVA! Isn't it great, that despite all those warning signs, the waning crowds, the credit crunch, the results on the pitch and the pressure from the banks, that Lowe kept his nerve and steered us in the direction we have gone. Many suggested their were other options. But few showed us how Lowe was helping us. And now, when those that said we don;t want change for changes sake, must be kicking themselves right now, because they should've been saying this when Lowe said he was to return. Lowe has done NOTHING to help this club, let me repeat that; NOTHING! 2 days a week and he's able to take us down and into admin, imagine what he could've done if he'd been fully committed to destroying this club, we would've been in admin before Christmas!

Remind me again of your posts, when Lowe was said to be returning where you stated Don;t kick out Crouch: "Unless we can replace him with someone that has major investment funds, are we not making the same mistake twice?" Because, I think, it would have been more apt then than now. What's that, you didn't? You mean you advocate the running of this club by Lowe, WITHOUT major investment! Redondo Saint, or Redundant Saint, I think one says more of your hypocritical side than the other, you decide...

And there's only enough room for so many freeloaders! Lowe and Wilde to name but 2. I hope the Echo will be privy to the reaction when one of those 2 a re quietly asked to leave any ticketed area! I hope that ticketed area includes the Directors box. That would be great. 10 mins into the game: Steward to Lowe - "Please Sir, could you finish your conversation and leave". I'm sure he would go quietly. And before anyone jumps on the he's the chairman,m he owns this club blah blah blah, ticketed area means ticketed area and this rule must apply to all otherwise that would be a biased law, applied only when stewards want to throw their weight around. Please someone, check Lowe for a ticket next home game!

Those that stay away have done this club a favour. For were Lowe to have even more money, SFC would have even more on loan youngsters and more inexperienced coach's. Lowe wastes money. He doesn;t understand the difference between quantity and quality. Why is this? Because he is searching for the next Theo Walcott. He thinks there's one in every 10! Then, once found, we sell hime for 12mill. That's that seasons payments sorted. What he doesn't understand is that all the time we're loaning cr*p and blooding youngsters before they're ready, is that we decline as a club and in reputation. Fans start to not turn up because 1 in 14 home win(s) IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH! All those that blame the fans only have to look to one person to be removed, in order to stop this rot. And that is Rupert Lowe. Once he is gone FOR GOOD, maybe we can rebuild this club after HE has dismantled it. It will take a few years, but it's not unfixable. That is, unless he stays till the end of the season, by which time he would've removed JP and installed Wotte, lost belief in him and then hired someone else. The payouts alone will cost us dear, let alone the non-disclosure agreements (which also cost BTW) add this to the idea that Lowe has let NP go, JP will shortly follow, that'll be three managers since he took over. Relegation season anyone? Well, at least his investment is safe. Oh no, the share price has almost halved since he announced his comeback, the banks are concerned, administration is looming, league 1 is calling and the fans hate him and aren;t showing up! Lowe is a liability. Glad I'm not there to witness the murder of this club, the slow, lingering, torturous death of this club, our club, your club, my club. Lowe is an idiot, time to go...

Blinkers on, eyes front! Have you still got your £50 betting slip with Saints to win the league? Funny, I don;t remember you being so against Lowe when he returned WITHOUT any further investment. Change for changes sake wasn;t it? Funny how some can be so hypocritical and deluded at the same time.

I'm torn. My beliefs are that clubs should be run as clubs. Talent should be nurtured from within and outside players should be tempted to play for a different team for 1 of 2 reasons: 1. Because they are good and they want to win things 2. Because the style of play suits them better (ie, as a player gets older, they mature into different players. Greatness can still be achieved later, if you are in the right environment) Football is old school, whereby 'winning' is everything, second is nothing. It is one of those last mantra's of the pre-pc world. On the other hand, as a business (which football has become) the market should dictate the outcomes. As much as I dislike this 'concept' coming into football, the truth is, once it came into the game, and you can argue as to when that was, the rules changed. £100m for a player, so what, how much did Real pay for Zidane? And that was quite some time ago. Football imploding? Nah, just the rich playing their games in the public eye. Do we moan, en mass, when large corporates swallow up small business and make people redundant? Unless it happens to you, nobody says anything. And that isn't in this climate, that's when things are going well! As for SKY, ruining the game, starting the ball rolling, I would disagree to some extent. Sure, they paid the money, good money, for a good product. At the time OUR GAME needed an injection of cash. Events such as Hillsborough, Heisel and Bradford, meant that grounds had to change and safety improved. Trouble is, when these improvements happened, the money was shifted. IMO, this money should, in part, have been reserved for the fans and the Youth teams. Even as a teenager, I said it back then, 50% of the SKY money should go on things 'other than' the 1st team. It should be this way today, and we would have the most amazing grounds, the cheapest seats and the best entertainment the world has ever seen. As for the pro's, they deserve all the money they get, they 'are' the product, and they are bought and sold as a product. I have said also, I'm glad I didn't make pro, I have no regrets, because I played football for other reasons, I played because I was good at it, I found it easy, and I ENJOYED IT! Trouble is, my enjoyment was at the expense of someone else's inferiority. And so, I have gone full circle. Lastly, I promise, just a little insight. When I was 16, I played for Hampshire youth team. There were two of us in the whole squad, whose father didn't drive a top of the range Merc or Jag. And honestly, we were the best two players in that team. The guys in charge picked from their own. The managers son was in the team, the coach, his friend etc etc. Why? Because they saw that football was going to be the next big thing and if their sons got good exposure and good facilities, they would eventually earn big money, and they were right. Maybe some would say I was jealous, but I'm not, seriously, there's a lot more to me than meets the eye. I actually feel sorry for the kids that were better than me! The ones that came from 'really' difficult backgrounds, sure, some were poor, but single families were a real big problem when I was growing up, the support wasn't there then asa it is now. And a lot of those kids went to the wall, drugs, alcohol, crime. IMO, football was te working class game because it saved kids like this from having lives like this. It was aa distraction, a comittment, an enjoyment. As the game continues and the money grows bigger still, ordinary folk like me or you, won;t be allowed to play pro football, our parents aren't upwardly mobile enough. And if you are or were, a priviledged child, I bear no grudge. I just think this whole system, country, ethos, will continue to drive the money toward certain groups and deprive the rest. Money is power, power can only be shared sparingly and there is only one ruler. Good luck city fans, all I hope is that the poor families in that city, get to take their kids to watch one of the greatest footballers on the planet and are not priced out of this working class game forever.

Like I said Frank, you increasingly miss the point. I have never called, nor referred to you as a Lowe Luvvie, and I do understand your position. The 'only' part of this post is the first two points. Should Lowe go? You say yes. Has lowe made mistakes? Again, you say yes. That is the point, and I have pointed this out before, and has been the thrust of my annoyance with you. Forget all the rest of that Lowe luvvie stuff, it's not me and it's not the way I operate. What I, and others on here have been saying to you, is then 'why doesn;t he go?' That's the frustrating part. And let me clarify my position on the 'what if' he were to go position, and those doubters out there that nobody can replace him. The board and the shareholders need to get their heads together and 'find someone'. They need to build a list of candidates and not repeat their failures of the past. Crikey, there's enough mistakes there for everyone to learn from. From that list, take a vote and get the best man for the job. fact is, Lowe isn't. Lowe came back to 'rescue' his shares and the financial position of this club. On reflection, and yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing, he c*cked it up. He made no major decisions beyond what someone like Crouch or any other reasonable Chairman, would've or could've made, considering the debt situation. BUT, and it's a big BUT, he hasn;t delivered on his commitment. He has failed. And unless he makles a massive U-Turn or quits, we are doomed, end of. That leads me onto my last point, and to me, this is the most damning and also the bit that frustates me a lot, and probably partially the reason why I get frustrated with intelligent people such asa yourself. Because, for me, I don;t believe Lowe will ever put his hands in the air and admit he messed up. I also don;t believe that their is a limit to Lowes c*ck ups whereby he would feel compelled to resign. Lowe will continue to do things 'his' way 'despite' of results, because he believes that he is right. Any show of weakness, ie, admitting he c*cked up, to Lowe, this is a sign of 'weakness'. And that, my friend, is dangerous FOR SAINTS. And so, like I said, it takes me three posts to hopefully get my point across to you, here I am at my third post. I hope you have understood where I am coming from, and I hope that you are big enough to realise that your little rant - the long list of meaningless Q & A's - is what I've been getting at. I'm sorry it took my little dig to 'hopefully' rattle your cage, because I believe, that all the time intelligent people, such as yourself, allow Lowe his failures and do not want more for this cloub, away from Lowe, I believe there will be no pressure on the board whatsoever, to do anything about it. And as I said above, I don;t believe Lowe will EVER resign, EVER EVER, regardless of results, regardless of league position, regardless of performances on the pitch, regardless of youth/experience balance. Nothing, nadda, will make Lowe resign, the only people that will make Lowe resign, will be the Board and the shareholders, and yes, they do read this sight, and no, I don;t believe they were privvy to Lowes AGM anonymous letter. As a by the way, if Lowe does change tact, will he write back to that fan and apologise for abandoning 'total football' and the Dutch experiment? LOL John (signing out) P.S. These two posts together should fill a whole page! Ah, the good old days when we used to post one liners!

Sorry Frank, but you keep doing this of late. I have asked you a couple of questions, where you miss the point totally, focus on the but where you can roll out the middle ground view and ignore the consistency of failure of Lowe. You;ve done it again with your Wigley and Grey statement. No, it didn't mean that at all and everyone can see this. hence the reason I am calling it drivvel, because it is. You are dodging meaningful points by ignoring them altogether and then placing a nonsense portion at the end of your posts. So, I thought I'd do the same, in the hope that it would snap you out of your middle fence, miss the point situation. But, I failed, you missed the point again, I waste another point explaining that you missed the point and then you;ll post again and miss the point. Can;t be bothered anymore. Sorry Frank, I used to respect your posts, even though we disagreed, but your posts have become so fence sitting and ignorant of the turmoil, I can't be bothered to waste my time, putting together an argument, that you then just ignore and do something like "so does that mean we should have given Wigley and Grey more of a chance?" NO IT DOESN'T. IT MEANS LOWE, LEARN FROM YOUR BLOOMIN MISTAKES.