View Poll Results: Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

Voters
146. You may not vote on this poll
  • Leave Before - Leave Now

    31 21.23%
  • Leave Before - Remain Now

    8 5.48%
  • Leave Before - Not Bothered Now

    2 1.37%
  • Remain Before - Remain Now

    82 56.16%
  • Remain Before - Leave Now

    5 3.42%
  • Remain Before - Not Bothered Now

    0 0%
  • Not Bothered Before - Leave Now

    3 2.05%
  • Not Bothered Before - Remain Now

    4 2.74%
  • I've never been bothered - Why am I on this Thread?

    2 1.37%
  • No second Ref - 2016 was Definitive and Binding

    9 6.16%
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Thread: Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

  1. #14201

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    From yesterday’s FT

    “Setback for Brexit planning as senior official quits

    Matthew Coats’ departure ‘puzzling and alarming’, says Whitehall source”

    https://www.ft.com/content/ab601430-...2-9624ec9edc59


  2. #14203

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  3. Default

    That's the trouble, you were lied to. You didn't know what you were voting for ��

  4. #14205

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    That's the trouble, you were lied to. You didn't know what you were voting for ��
    Exactly, why we need another vote!

  5. #14206

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    That's the trouble, you were lied to. You didn't know what you were voting for ��
    I know I was lied to, by both sides, which is why I made up my own mind based on my own knowledge and understanding, and decided that to leave the EU was, and still is, a bad idea.

  6. Default

    But if the so called experts have no idea what chance have you got, the same people who told us those lies are now saying no deal is the end of the world.

  7. #14208

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    In a weird way I sort of agree with the lib dems who are at least honest about what they want. A charade of a second referendum is an idiotic idea and isn't going to heal any sort of divisions whatever way it goes. A half in non-brexit isn't going to please anyone either. The choices should be to leave properly with everything that entails or to cancel the whole thing. Both choices are difficult and will have real consequences.

  8. #14209

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    .......the same people who told us those lies are now saying no deal is the end of the world.
    Well, one group of them are. The fantasists on the other side are saying it's the best outcome.

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Well, one group of them are. The fantasists on the other side are saying it's the best outcome.
    So you believe the people who advised George Osborne who could not have been more wrong if he'd tried and the same people who advised us to ditch the pound and use the euro

  10. #14211

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    So you believe the people who advised George Osborne who could not have been more wrong if he'd tried and the same people who advised us to ditch the pound and use the euro
    What on earth are you talking about?

  11. #14212

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    In a weird way I sort of agree with the lib dems who are at least honest about what they want. A charade of a second referendum is an idiotic idea and isn't going to heal any sort of divisions whatever way it goes. A half in non-brexit isn't going to please anyone either. The choices should be to leave properly with everything that entails or to cancel the whole thing. Both choices are difficult and will have real consequences.
    Nothing is going to heal the divisions, all that matters is doing the right thing for the country. A second referendum is obviously not ideal but not as bad as just ignoring the will of the people, or probably crashing out with no deal.

  12. #14213

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    So you believe the people who advised George Osborne who could not have been more wrong if he'd tried and the same people who advised us to ditch the pound and use the euro
    Qué ?

    I didn't pay too much attention to "Project Fear", as I had little more than contempt for Cameron and Osborne, and I have always viewed Farage as a self-interested and completely untrustworthy, loathsome, chancer.
    Last edited by badgerx16; 30-09-2019 at 10:57 AM.

  13. #14214

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    It seems a referendum of just Leave or Remain answers no questions at all.

    You really need a multi part poll. All parts to be filled out in one referendum.

    Leave or Remain?

    If leave wins, would you accept the withdrawal agreement? Yes/No (assuming this remains the only agreement, backstop and all, as no other has ever been put forward or considered in three years)

    If the vote rejects the deal, would you leave with no deal rather than remain? Yes/No




    Would that be so hard? It would surely answer the questions the first referendum left interpretation. I honestly can't see why either side would disagree with it. No deal fans who say that the people just want Brexit delivered would get their vote, people who think remain is better than no deal would get their vote.

    What am I getting wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    It seems a referendum of just Leave or Remain answers no questions at all.

    You really need a multi part poll. All parts to be filled out in one referendum.

    Leave or Remain?

    If leave wins, would you accept the withdrawal agreement? Yes/No (assuming this remains the only agreement, backstop and all, as no other has ever been put forward or considered in three years)

    If the vote rejects the deal, would you leave with no deal rather than remain? Yes/No




    Would that be so hard? It would surely answer the questions the first referendum left interpretation. I honestly can't see why either side would disagree with it. No deal fans who say that the people just want Brexit delivered would get their vote, people who think remain is better than no deal would get their vote.

    What am I getting wrong?
    It wouldn't work because if leave won the remoaners would want another go
    Last edited by scally; 30-09-2019 at 11:11 AM.

  15. #14216

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    In a weird way I sort of agree with the lib dems who are at least honest about what they want. A charade of a second referendum is an idiotic idea and isn't going to heal any sort of divisions whatever way it goes. A half in non-brexit isn't going to please anyone either. The choices should be to leave properly with everything that entails or to cancel the whole thing. Both choices are difficult and will have real consequences.
    Nobody seems to have suggested going back to Europe and renegotiating with them a new relationship that keeps us in. This can then be put to the vote. As Sarkozy admitted, the EU made a strategic error in not giving Cameron anything of substance to put to the electorate and that cost them the referendum. With the chance of reintegrating us into the block they may find a new willingness to be flexible and address the failings of the existing arrangement that prompted a leave vote.

  16. #14217

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    It seems a referendum of just Leave or Remain answers no questions at all.

    You really need a multi part poll. All parts to be filled out in one referendum.

    Leave or Remain?

    If leave wins, would you accept the withdrawal agreement? Yes/No (assuming this remains the only agreement, backstop and all, as no other has ever been put forward or considered in three years)

    If the vote rejects the deal, would you leave with no deal rather than remain? Yes/No




    Would that be so hard? It would surely answer the questions the first referendum left interpretation. I honestly can't see why either side would disagree with it. No deal fans who say that the people just want Brexit delivered would get their vote, people who think remain is better than no deal would get their vote.

    What am I getting wrong?
    Makes sense to me.

    Problem is if our government do this and remain won then the Tories will get destroyed by Farage at the next General Election. So for the good of the Conservative party we have to just plough ahead with no deal regardless of how bad the consequences for the country.

  17. #14218

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    Nothing is going to heal the divisions, all that matters is doing the right thing for the country. A second referendum is obviously not ideal but not as bad as just ignoring the will of the people, or probably crashing out with no deal.
    Having a sham of a second referendum amounts to ignoring the will of the people anyway. In fact it's actually more insulting because it's dressed up as being democratic when actually it's purely designed to overturn the original result.

  18. #14219

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    It wouldn't work because if leave won the remoaners would want another go
    How do you think we should address the point that many who voted leave would have preferred to remain than have no deal? It was already a very narrow majority.

    Serious question. I get the idea that the original referendum left enormous gaps that are causing the problems now. For the record, I didn't vote either way as I am not a resident and the final result will have minimal effect on me as I am a permanent resident in Norway and can claim Norwegian citizenship if I choose. My biggest interest is as a teacher who discusses this on a daily basis with my students.

  19. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    How do you think we should address the point that many who voted leave would have preferred to remain than have no deal? It was already a very narrow majority.

    Serious question. I get the idea that the original referendum left enormous gaps that are causing the problems now. For the record, I didn't vote either way as I am not a resident and the final result will have minimal effect on me as I am a permanent resident in Norway and can claim Norwegian citizenship if I choose. My biggest interest is as a teacher who discusses this on a daily basis with my students.
    That's a good point but I feel you can continually put obstacles in the way, We voted out and if you look at the internet there are plenty of videos of remainer mp's saying that after two years if we haven't got a deal the default position is no deal. You can't keep on having referendums because some people change their minds over time, saying we know more now than we did then doesn't cut it with me because we still have a long way to go and even the so called experts are just ****ing in the wind with their predictions

  20. #14221

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    That's a good point but I feel you can continually put obstacles in the way, We voted out and if you look at the internet there are plenty of videos of remainer mp's saying that after two years if we haven't got a deal the default position is no deal. You can't keep on having referendums because some people change their minds over time, saying we know more now than we did then doesn't cut it with me because we still have a long way to go and even the so called experts are just ****ing in the wind with their predictions
    The 2017 GE Labour Manifesto explicitly rejected no deal. MPs were elected on that basis. You can’t be surprised that the Labour Party is doing exactly what it promised. Keep up pal.

  21. #14222

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    That's a good point but I feel you can continually put obstacles in the way, We voted out and if you look at the internet there are plenty of videos of remainer mp's saying that after two years if we haven't got a deal the default position is no deal. You can't keep on having referendums because some people change their minds over time, saying we know more now than we did then doesn't cut it with me because we still have a long way to go and even the so called experts are just ****ing in the wind with their predictions
    But you also have to recognise that many who voted leave were never given the "leave with a deal" "leave without a deal" choice and would have chosen remain over no deal. When the majority was as wafer thin as it was, that's very relevant and there's a very real chance that the majority would rather remain than no deal. I can understand why people who want toleave at any cost would rather not look into this though, as it takes away the winning result. The fact is that the referendum was horribly flawed though.

    Would you accept leave with the withdrawal agreement?

  22. #14223

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    Having a sham of a second referendum amounts to ignoring the will of the people anyway. In fact it's actually more insulting because it's dressed up as being democratic when actually it's purely designed to overturn the original result.
    Except if the people of the UK still want to leave, they will leave. In a democratic kind of way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    The 2017 GE Labour Manifesto explicitly rejected no deal. MPs were elected on that basis. You can’t be surprised that the Labour Party is doing exactly what it promised. Keep up pal.
    The Labour party has no idea what they're doing and this comes from somebody who has never voted for any one else

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    But you also have to recognise that many who voted leave were never given the "leave with a deal" "leave without a deal" choice and would have chosen remain over no deal. When the majority was as wafer thin as it was, that's very relevant and there's a very real chance that the majority would rather remain than no deal. I can understand why people who want toleave at any cost would rather not look into this though, as it takes away the winning result. The fact is that the referendum was horribly flawed though.

    Would you accept leave with the withdrawal agreement?
    The only people who are asking for a second referendum are remoaners, it's got nothing to do with democracy it's all about stopping brexit.

  25. #14226

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    The Labour party has no idea what they're doing and this comes from somebody who has never voted for any one else
    That doesn’t follow.

    Also note that the majority of Labour MPs voted for a Customs Union or Common Market 2.0 in the indicative votes. There was a clear compromise and cross-party solution available which would have respected the referendum result but was scuppered principally by May and vast swathes of Conservative MPs but also some dogmatic remainers.
    Last edited by shurlock; 30-09-2019 at 12:31 PM.

  26. #14227

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    Except if the people of the UK still want to leave, they will leave. In a democratic kind of way.
    And if the numbers taking part in this second referendum are significantly lower because many have become disillusioned by those in power doing everything they can to overturn the original result?

  27. #14228

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    The only people who are asking for a second referendum are remoaners, it's got nothing to do with democracy it's all about stopping brexit.
    No, that's not accurate (and can we put the silly name calling aside for an adult conversation?). I know people who voted leave, but would rather remain than leave without a deal. That's why I am so aware of it being a thing.

  28. #14229

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    And if the numbers taking part in this second referendum are significantly lower because many have become disillusioned by those in power doing everything they can to overturn the original result?
    If they choose not to vote then that is their choice, just like any other election. Those in power are representatives of the people doing what they think is best for the country, that's what a parliamentary democracy does.

    Obviously a second referendum is not ideal, but unless Boris comes back with his "easiest deal in history" and it gets approved I can't see a better way out of the mess.

    I'm not overly bothered if we leave or not (at the start of this thread I was arguing for leave) but the idea that we need to blindly plough ahead with a no deal, no matter how bad the probable/possible consequences, for the sake of democracy is just complete bullsh!t.

  29. #14230

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    It wouldn't work because if leave won the remoaners would want another go
    Ditto with leavers if remain won. Pandora's box was levered open by Cameron, and all the evils released will not be put back inside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Ditto with leavers if remain won. Pandora's box was levered open by Cameron, and all the evils released will not be put back inside.
    Exactly why a 2nd referendum would solve nothing

  31. #14232

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    If they choose not to vote then that is their choice, just like any other election. Those in power are representatives of the people doing what they think is best for the country, that's what a parliamentary democracy does.

    Obviously a second referendum is not ideal, but unless Boris comes back with his "easiest deal in history" and it gets approved I can't see a better way out of the mess.

    I'm not overly bothered if we leave or not (at the start of this thread I was arguing for leave) but the idea that we need to blindly plough ahead with a no deal, no matter how bad the probable/possible consequences, for the sake of democracy is just complete bullsh!t.
    Haven’t agreed with a lot of what you’ve said on this thread (and you probably have me on ignore) but acknowledge your pragmatism and independent mindedness.

  32. #14233

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    Exactly why a 2nd referendum would solve nothing
    But it would tell us the way the country wants to go; Remain, Leave with a deal, Leave with no deal.

  33. #14234

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Ditto with leavers if remain won. Pandora's box was levered open by Cameron, and all the evils released will not be put back inside.
    And quite right too. Absolute disgrace to have another referendum and then throw the original votes in the bin.

  34. #14235

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    Johnson’s position is looking increasingly shaky. I reckon it’s 50:50 if he lasts the week

  35. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    But it would tell us the way the country wants to go; Remain, Leave with a deal, Leave with no deal.
    Splitting the leave vote against a one off choice to remain, that doesn't work for me

  36. #14237

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    Splitting the leave vote against a one off choice to remain, that doesn't work for me
    I'm not saying that. You do leave with a deal versus leave without a deal, then the result of that v Remain.

  37. #14238

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Johnson’s position is looking increasingly shaky. I reckon it’s 50:50 if he lasts the week
    It's probably beneficial for the Conservative party if he gets voted out and then fights an election rather than being forced to break his promise after the 31st.

  38. #14239

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    It's probably beneficial for the Conservative party if he gets voted out and then fights an election rather than being forced to break his promise after the 31st.
    None of this is beneficial to the Tory party - they look an absolute shambles at the moment.

    As I said when GM and Wes were celebrating hard at Boris getting the job, they needed someone else to get the job first as that next leader had a poisoned chalice and would be out by the end of the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    I'm not saying that. You do leave with a deal versus leave without a deal, then the result of that v Remain.
    So another 2 votes

  40. #14241

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    So another 2 votes
    If we're going to have a 2nd ref, then yes. Anything less and you're either splitting votes or not allowing enough detail to get the answer needed.

  41. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    No, that's not accurate (and can we put the silly name calling aside for an adult conversation?). I know people who voted leave, but would rather remain than leave without a deal. That's why I am so aware of it being a thing.
    I think if you knew at the time that if we don't get a deal we leave with no deal then you can't complain when no deal actually happens.

  42. #14243

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    I think if you knew at the time that if we don't get a deal we leave with no deal then you can't complain when no deal actually happens.
    No deal is not what was promised. “Name our own terms” and “easiest deal in history” is what was promised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    No deal is not what was promised. “Name our own terms” and “easiest deal in history” is what was promised.
    Nobody promised you any thing, it was a referendum and as has been shown on here today both side said what they thought would happen and both were wrong. Many people involved at the time said if we don't get a deal we leave with no deal

  44. #14245

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    It's probably beneficial for the Conservative party if he gets voted out and then fights an election rather than being forced to break his promise after the 31st.
    Not sure. At least probably a third of current Tory MPs don’t support him. So he’s got the confidence of maybe 200 out of 650 MPs. Combined with his mounting private life issues he might well never get the chance to fight a election

  45. #14246

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    Nobody promised you any thing, it was a referendum and as has been shown on here today both side said what they thought would happen and both were wrong. Many people involved at the time said if we don't get a deal we leave with no deal
    I don't understand your point - you're saying that there was a massive disparity between what was said by both sides and what has happened - if that is true (and it is) there is no greater case for a second referendum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    I don't understand your point - you're saying that there was a massive disparity between what was said by both sides and what has happened - if that is true (and it is) there is no greater case for a second referendum.
    What I'm saying is they do not and still don't know what will happen, you make your mind up how you want to vote and live with it. Unless you can see into the future you can only go with how you feel at the time

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    What on earth are you talking about?
    What don't you understand?

  48. #14249

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    None of this is beneficial to the Tory party - they look an absolute shambles at the moment.

    As I said when GM and Wes were celebrating hard at Boris getting the job, they needed someone else to get the job first as that next leader had a poisoned chalice and would be out by the end of the year.
    Can't agree with you there. I believe most polls are showing Boris has jumped in popularity in the last few weeks. It may be bad for Johnson if the opposition were in any way competent.

  49. #14250

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    What I'm saying is they do not and still don't know what will happen, you make your mind up how you want to vote and live with it. Unless you can see into the future you can only go with how you feel at the time
    Nah. Promises were made. The fact that the people making them either didn’t know if they could keep them or knew they couldn’t but made them anyway makes it worse . It doesn’t excuse anything

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