What does the FL gain by killing off the likes of Luton, Leeds and Saints ?

[alpine_saint]

Do they REALLY think screwing clubs in financial difficulty can serve as an example that will somehow prevent other clubs from falling into it ?

 

Every club except the big 4 are in the same position - overstretch yourself financially and cross your fingers it works out, because the alternative is going out of business and out of the League.

 

Arent they supposed to be protecting the game in this country ?

[angelman]

power. the little men in charge has small man syndrome so like to flex their muscles to show how important they are. I do feel really sorry for Luton and hope that we or anyone else follow them down that particular path.

[angelman]

obviously meant to say don't follow Luton

[Muller]

Do they REALLY think screwing clubs in financial difficulty can serve as an example that will somehow prevent other clubs from falling into it ?

 

Every club except the big 4 are in the same position - overstretch yourself financially and cross your fingers it works out, because the alternative is going out of business and out of the League.

 

Arent they supposed to be protecting the game in this country ?

 

They are not screwing clubs they are trying to put in place a system of penalties that push clubs into operating in a financially prudent manner. Perhaps if clubs had paid notice to what has happened to Leeds and managed their finances accordingly these points deductions would be a thing of the past. Blaming the football league is deflecting from the mismanagement that has occurred in the past and to be frank smacks of pathetic whining. Face up to the fact the penalty is deserved and no amount of bleating will change that. :smt089

[The Kraken]

As much as the Football League's rules stink, in that they tend to punish the supporters and club rather than the previous owners, I think its a much better system than the loopholes that allowed the likes of Leicester to build a new stadium, incur huge debt, wipe that debt out through administration and suffer no formal punishment.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a huge amount that could be done to make the punishments equal across the board and fairer (Stockport and Luton spring immediately to mind) but there does need to be some form of deterrent from financial mismanagement, and this is perhaps the best of a bad bunch of potential measures.

[alpine_saint]

Who are you then, Mr. 2 posts ?

 

Cos you arent a Saints fan

[Muller]

As much as the Football League's rules stink, in that they tend to punish the supporters and club rather than the previous owners, I think its a much better system than the loopholes that allowed the likes of Leicester to build a new stadium, incur huge debt, wipe that debt out through administration and suffer no formal punishment.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a huge amount that could be done to make the punishments equal across the board and fairer (Stockport and Luton spring immediately to mind) but there does need to be some form of deterrent from financial mismanagement, and this is perhaps the best of a bad bunch of potential measures.

 

Exactly - to be honest if the staff of the club are not paid again today then I think the imposition of an additional 15 points deducted would be more than justified. These are real people with bills to pay and anything that stops this happening in the future and crunching other peoples credits can only be a good thing.

[Burger]

Exactly - to be honest if the staff of the club are not paid again today then I think the imposition of an additional 15 points deducted would be more than justified. These are real people with bills to pay and anything that stops this happening in the future and crunching other peoples credits can only be a good thing.

 

don't the skates have their own forums for you?

[The Kraken]

Exactly - to be honest if the staff of the club are not paid again today then I think the imposition of an additional 15 points deducted would be more than justified. These are real people with bills to pay and anything that stops this happening in the future and crunching other peoples credits can only be a good thing.

 

Steady on; in no way whatsoever would I advocate an additional 15 point deduction, particularly when we are in administration. I've already said that I don't like the rules as they punish the previous owners, and an additional 15 points would only punish the new incumbants and the fans.

 

I don't believe these rules will ever stop what is currently happening to likes of us; owners of clubs will always over-stretch themselves in the pursuit of success. I think the current rules can only act as a mild deterrent; but as I stated I think they are just the best option currently available, and certainly a long way from ideal.

[Torres]

They are not screwing clubs they are trying to put in place a system of penalties that push clubs into operating in a financially prudent manner. Perhaps if clubs had paid notice to what has happened to Leeds and managed their finances accordingly these points deductions would be a thing of the past. Blaming the football league is deflecting from the mismanagement that has occurred in the past and to be frank smacks of pathetic whining. Face up to the fact the penalty is deserved and no amount of bleating will change that. :smt089

 

Quite.

[Ken Tone]

Do they REALLY think screwing clubs in financial difficulty can serve as an example that will somehow prevent other clubs from falling into it ?

 

Every club except the big 4 are in the same position - overstretch yourself financially and cross your fingers it works out, because the alternative is going out of business and out of the League.

 

Arent they supposed to be protecting the game in this country ?

 

We talk as if the FL is an entity in its own right. It is actually a members' club. What happens is that nearly every other club votes to put the weak one in the ****, so as to improve its own position relatively. Why would any L1 club want us NOT to have a -10 start?

 

It's like a pack of hungry wolves turning on one of their own when it is injured.

 

K.

[alpine_saint]

We talk as if the FL is an entity in its own right. It is actually a members' club. What happens is that nearly every other club votes to put the weak one in the ****, so as to improve its own position relatively. Why would any L1 club want us NOT to have a -10 start?

 

It's like a pack of hungry wolves turning on one of their own when it is injured.

 

K.

 

Yeah, well some of those f**kers at other clubs like David Sheepshaag should realise that what goes around, comes around, and clubs on the way down might well pass those clubs they shat all over in the past.

[Torres]

We talk as if the FL is an entity in its own right. It is actually a members' club. What happens is that nearly every other club votes to put the weak one in the ****, so as to improve its own position relatively. Why would any L1 club want us NOT to have a -10 start?

 

It's like a pack of hungry wolves turning on one of their own when it is injured.

 

K.

 

Not really - the rule is there to discourage clubs from over-stretching themselves financially and to attempt to ensure the long term health and survival of the clubs.

[bungle]

alpine wrong again.

[alpine_saint]

Not really - the rule is there to discourage clubs from over-stretching themselves financially and to attempt to ensure the long term health and survival of the clubs.

 

The set-up of the game in England is such that the two are utterly incompatible.

[Torres]

The set-up of the game in England is such that the two are utterly incompatible.

 

Well that's simply untrue.

[alpine_saint]

Well that's simply untrue.

 

I must be imagining all these clubs teetering on the brink of going out of existence then....

[Torres]

I must be imagining all these clubs teetering on the brink of going out of existence then....

 

And I must be imaging all those that aren't.

 

Plenty of clubs are able to survive and thrive in the football league without the need to stake their futures on immediate success.

[saint_stevo]

there are 72 clubs in the football league, how many of these have been or are in admin?

[Torres]

there are 72 clubs in the football league, how many of these have been or are in admin?

 

I'm not going to count but it would be interesting to know. It would also be interesting to count those who have found themselves in admin because of either relegation from the Prem, ITV Digital or a "sh1t or bust" gamble on instant success...

[Seany S]

Anyone grumbling about the plight of clubs in this country should check out what they did in the Jupiler League in Belgium. In order to obtain a Belgian football license, clubs are required to demonstrate that they have no excessive debts, a secure stadium etc. Failure to meet with these standards sees the club banished to the lower tiers of the Belgian League. If a system like this was introduced in this country, we would see the debt-o-mungous likes of Liverpool get booted out of the Premier League, never mind Saints, Luton, Leeds et al.

[The9]

They are not screwing clubs they are trying to put in place a system of penalties that push clubs into operating in a financially prudent manner. Perhaps if clubs had paid notice to what has happened to Leeds and managed their finances accordingly these points deductions would be a thing of the past. Blaming the football league is deflecting from the mismanagement that has occurred in the past and to be frank smacks of pathetic whining. Face up to the fact the penalty is deserved and no amount of bleating will change that. :smt089

 

The problem is that the only way to compete at the top level now involves more money than pretty much anyone has, and usually more money than a Football club is capable of generating. Until the system is sorted (hello Football League, and far less likely, Premier League) clubs will overstretch in the desperate bid to make it to the promised land (and then fail to have a hope in hell of winning anything when they get there, but that's another story).

 

When it comes down to it, the fault still lies with those spending money they didn't have, as it is possible to run a self-sufficient club. The problem is, in doing so you'll just slide further and further down the league as you get overtaken by multi-billionaires until eventually you find a level of native clubs breaking even, grazing in the pasture of Ultra League B (fourth tier) or whatever they're branding it that week.

 

The spectre of Premier League II tells you everything you know about what a number of Club Chairmen think about returning to a collective bargaining, profit-sharing, "good of the game" system. Its fingers in pies and grab a grand while its there. Football Will Eat Itself.

[Navysaint]

Do they REALLY think screwing clubs in financial difficulty can serve as an example that will somehow prevent other clubs from falling into it ?

 

Every club except the big 4 are in the same position - overstretch yourself financially and cross your fingers it works out, because the alternative is going out of business and out of the League.

 

Arent they supposed to be protecting the game in this country ?

 

Chelsea are the only team not in debt because they owe the money to their owner, Man u are at least 900million in debt, Arsenal 700million (New stadium) and Liverpool have just refinanced 350million (Royal Bank of Scotland who are on their arse as well) and southampton get all the greif for going £400,000 over their agreed overdraft "apparently"

[The9]

Anyone grumbling about the plight of clubs in this country should check out what they did in the Jupiler League in Belgium. In order to obtain a Belgian football license, clubs are required to demonstrate that they have no excessive debts, a secure stadium etc. Failure to meet with these standards sees the club banished to the lower tiers of the Belgian League. If a system like this was introduced in this country, we would see the debt-o-mungous likes of Liverpool get booted out of the Premier League, never mind Saints, Luton, Leeds et al.

 

The counter-argument being "when did you last go out of your way to watch a Belgian League match", of course.

 

For as long as there's a "global brand" stampeding over everything else with their Michael Ballacks and their Cristiano Ronal... erm, bad example... Fernando Torreses, other Leagues either have to accept their limits and either regulate sensibly (like Belgium) whilst accepting that their clubs won't have any European success when facing the money clubs, or they can go balls out to try and grab that market share.

 

Given the established Worldwide "club brands" are already in place, this can only happen if a league as a whole becomes interesting, and when distant global audiences stop glory-hunting and stick with "loser" teams, which is never going to happen.

[The9]

I'm not going to count but it would be interesting to know. It would also be interesting to count those who have found themselves in admin because of either relegation from the Prem, ITV Digital or a "sh1t or bust" gamble on instant success...

 

Having Googled this a few months ago, I know there's nowhere online where a comprehensive list is being kept. Even the clubs in crisis website only really covers the last few years.

[The9]

Chelsea are the only team not in debt because they owe the money to their owner, Man u are at least 900million in debt, Arsenal 700million (New stadium) and Liverpool have just refinanced 350million (Royal Bank of Scotland who are on their arse as well) and southampton get all the grief for going £400,000 over their agreed overdraft "apparently"

 

It is a matter of managing your debt, rather than actually being in credit though.

[broncoboy]

The real issue is that the Football League are unable to impose a fair system of club finances. Clubs going backrunpt are regretable but any supplier to a business weighs up the risks they take in giving credit.

 

There is no control over people of dubious backgroud taking over clubs unless they have convictions nor clubs being funded disproportionally by rich owners. If they have to impose penalites then they should be financial penalties rather than point deductions which make a mockery of a competition.

 

Who are the FL just second class politicians who want their moments of glory

If they put Saints down another league or into the conference they are just ensuring the very thing they seek to avoid that is leaving the club with contracts they cant possibly pay for in League 2 or the Conference

 

These penalties are ludicoursly over the top and probably illegal

that is why they need clubs to sign their rights away.

 

Arsehloes everyone of them. Small men with small minds

[Torres]

If they have to impose penalites then they should be financial penalties rather than point deductions which make a mockery of a competition.

 

Imposing financial penalties on clubs already in administration is never going to be much of a winner.

[Gingeletiss]

They are not screwing clubs they are trying to put in place a system of penalties that push clubs into operating in a financially prudent manner. Perhaps if clubs had paid notice to what has happened to Leeds and managed their finances accordingly these points deductions would be a thing of the past. Blaming the football league is deflecting from the mismanagement that has occurred in the past and to be frank smacks of pathetic whining. Face up to the fact the penalty is deserved and no amount of bleating will change that. :smt089

 

Perhaps then, that they should apply a wage cap, and stop these players demanding a Kings ransom, and at the same time, make them honor the contracts they sign, instead of getting their grasping agents to always be on the look out for a better deal.

[scally]

It's all very well punishing the clubs, but who are the Football League really punishing?

The only people left at Saints, Leeds and Luton that were there when the mess was created are the fans, the people who made the mess have lined their pockets and run off into the hills. Ye that works, well done the Football League. When Luton fans no longer have a club to support the tossers at the Football League should hang their heads in shame, how have they helped the very clubs that have lined their pockets over the years?

[Baird of the land]

I'm fairly happy with a 10 point deduction for teams going into administration. What i think is completely unfair is the -35etc that Luton were given. Also i think the deduction should always be deferred to the next season or at the very least have a cut off point where it always applies to the next season. Stockport getting away with it because they were safe in mid table seems completely unfair to me and saints getting told 'if you stay up you get deducted and therefore go down and if you go down we'll apply it next season' is also unfair.

[eurosaint]

It would be nice if the system was fair (or even unfair) to all !

Stockport were effectively given a slap on the wrist, WHU (ok, the PL is run by different people to the FL) have now had 2 companies owning them who have been in administration but no penalty !

The football authorities make it up as they go along and do seem to favour the 'big' teams !

[Capel Saint]

Perhaps then, that they should apply a wage cap, and stop these players demanding a Kings ransom, and at the same time, make them honor the contracts they sign, instead of getting their grasping agents to always be on the look out for a better deal.

 

Exactly! The only winners of this current set up are the players and their agents who absolutely coin it in.

[saint1977]

Exactly - to be honest if the staff of the club are not paid again today then I think the imposition of an additional 15 points deducted would be more than justified. These are real people with bills to pay and anything that stops this happening in the future and crunching other peoples credits can only be a good thing.

 

I had quite a bit of empathy with your first post but that is plain dumb. This is a Saints forum and not a Brian Mawhinney love-in. He was an effing useless Cabinet minister in a useless Government to boot.

[saint1977]

Perhaps then, that they should apply a wage cap, and stop these players demanding a Kings ransom, and at the same time, make them honor the contracts they sign, instead of getting their grasping agents to always be on the look out for a better deal.

 

If only. I think the FL probably would go for this as well. Bad news is that EC will never allow it and the PL as a seperate entity would never follow suit as the big 4 would then claim they couldn't compete with Madrid and would probably break away (which probably would be a good thing).

[Nineteen Canteen]

there are 72 clubs in the football league, how many of these have been or are in admin?

 

No idea but I suspect about 6 times as many and rising than 5 years ago. I doubt it would look good on a graph if you plot from the early 80's when Aldershot fans were cheering the sinking of the Belgrano more than a shots goal.

[JoeShmoe]

Blaming the football league is deflecting from the mismanagement that has occurred in the past and to be frank smacks of pathetic whining. Face up to the fact the penalty is deserved and no amount of bleating will change that. :smt089

 

Thank gawd someone else agrees with me and isn't 'Pinnacle blind'

[Sheff Saint]

Something is definatly wrong.

 

The rules are not plain and clear, they are inconsisent and rely on far too many external variances.

 

The way i view it is the League have dug themselves a hole. Leeds screwed the league when they got relegated and took their ten point hit before Bates bought them back for nowt. The League were so adamant to exact revenage they decided to create this CVA punishment on top of the -10.

 

All well and good as Leeds missed out on promotion as a result.

 

Trouble is we now have a culture of punishment rather than cure. Of course you need to run your business sensibly but all good business needs to take the odd risk. What's happened is the financial bubble has grown so big we are one of a lot of clubs with big finaincal depedents. The bubble is starting to be burst and the league should spend more time trying to cure that than dishing out silly penalties.

 

I'm not advocating we shouldn't get some form of punishment, but minus -27 or relegation is an absolute joke, especially we've already had a season in all but administration resulting in adminstration just to aviod the 10 point hit in the first place!

[Window Cleaner]

respect of it's insolvency rules?

 

In my brief teaching career an old professor once told me, if you want to have mastery of your student's, never be afraid to make an example,however feeble the cause. Warn once and then let a heavy sanction fall,it will get you hatred but respect.Never threaten without sanction at the next trangression. In the 3 year postgrad teaching that I did the principle never let me down.Mind you, the lads and lasses didn't buy me many pints at the Union Bar either.

Edited 25 June, 2009 by Window Cleaner

[Torres]

 

it's the same old ****. if you're 1m in debt you're screwed, if you're 500m in debt you're untouchable.

 

If you can't service your debt, you're screwed. If you can, you're untouchable.

 

Just like any other business.

[scally]

so they punish clubs in a recession for going broke, while football continues to reward and support clubs hundreds of millions in debt and continuing to spend.

 

it's the same old ****. if you're 1m in debt you're screwed, if you're 500m in debt you're untouchable.

 

It would be interesting to see what would happen if one of the big clubs went tits up, would they suffer the same fate as Football League clubs or would the Premiership help them out?

[Red and White Army]

Do they REALLY think screwing clubs in financial difficulty can serve as an example that will somehow prevent other clubs from falling into it ?

 

Baxktracking on your stupid and ill informed opinion that adminstration is the best option for Saints yet?

 

You stupid pointless little twot.

[Legod Third Coming]

Exactly - to be honest if the staff of the club are not paid again today then I think the imposition of an additional 15 points deducted would be more than justified. These are real people with bills to pay and anything that stops this happening in the future and crunching other peoples credits can only be a good thing.

 

I don't normally swear or abuse people on this site, but you are a f u c k i n g idiot.

 

How did what happened to Leeds prevent:

 

Rotherham

Darlington

Stockport

Luton

Bournemouth

Southampton

 

getting into trouble??

 

It didn't.

 

What have the league (and moreover the FA) done???

 

Pushed clubs into foriegn ownership or massive indebtedness by completely and utterly fecking up the distribution of wealth within the game.

 

These rules have really served up financial prudence haven't they??

 

Clubs are in MORE debt now than ever before and what has found them out is the withdrawal of credit.

 

But rather than look to their own inability to secure adequate funding for the game, the league kick the fans - who have paid millions into the game in the balls.

 

Go boil your head, it's all it's good for.

[corsacar saint]

Tory arsehole Malwhinney and his cronies could not care less about the fans of Saints or

any other club for that matter. Look at the way poor[little] Luton were effectively relegated with their -30 points.

[The9]

I don't normally swear or abuse people on this site, but you are a f u c k i n g idiot.

 

How did what happened to Leeds prevent:

 

Rotherham

Darlington

Stockport

Luton

Bournemouth

Southampton

 

getting into trouble??

 

It didn't.

 

What have the league (and moreover the FA) done???

 

Pushed clubs into foriegn ownership or massive indebtedness by completely and utterly fecking up the distribution of wealth within the game.

 

These rules have really served up financial prudence haven't they??

 

I've never agreed with a post more ! :smile:

[chichestergas]

An interesting thread and arguement! A Bristol Rovers fan coming in peace here. As an outsider I can see both sides of the story, the League want certain things in place, and Pinnacle want certain assertions in place. Lets hope things get sorted soon. Looking forward to a trip to St Mary's on 29th September!

 

There seem to be some very sensible posters on here who can see the "whole picture" but also some who come across as "hollier than thou" and that Saints should be treated differently to other clubs?

[Torres]

 

How did what happened to Leeds prevent:

 

Rotherham

Darlington

Stockport

Luton

Bournemouth

Southampton

 

getting into trouble??

 

It didn't.

 

No it didn't - but we don't know how many other clubs have taken care to ensure that the same doesn't happen to them...

 

What have the league (and moreover the FA) done???

 

Pushed clubs into foriegn ownership or massive indebtedness by completely and utterly fecking up the distribution of wealth within the game.

 

These rules have really served up financial prudence haven't they??

 

Clubs are in MORE debt now than ever before and what has found them out is the withdrawal of credit.

 

Not sure that the the Football League can carry a huge portion of the blame for the explosion of wealth in the the Premier League or the massive gap in finance between the 2 leagues give that the old Div1 clubs broke away from the FL to form the Prem.

 

The FA have to carry the can for allowing that and for not ensuring a more equal distribution of wealth for the good of the entire professional game in England.

[Mole]

Lord Haw Haw get's to feel all important. Everytime i see his smug face on the TV it says punch me.

[CLOTH EARS]

They are not screwing clubs they are trying to put in place a system of penalties that push clubs into operating in a financially prudent manner. Perhaps if clubs had paid notice to what has happened to Leeds and managed their finances accordingly these points deductions would be a thing of the past. Blaming the football league is deflecting from the mismanagement that has occurred in the past and to be frank smacks of pathetic whining. Face up to the fact the penalty is deserved and no amount of bleating will change that. :smt089

 

The culprits aren't here to suffer the consequences though are they!!!! WE suffer for the previous administrations mismanagement.

[The9]

An interesting thread and arguement! A Bristol Rovers fan coming in peace here. As an outsider I can see both sides of the story, the League want certain things in place, and Pinnacle want certain assertions in place. Lets hope things get sorted soon. Looking forward to a trip to St Mary's on 29th September!

 

There seem to be some very sensible posters on here who can see the "whole picture" but also some who come across as "hollier than thou" and that Saints should be treated differently to other clubs?

 

Not half as much as we're looking forward to seeing you lot (or anyone else in League One for that matter).

 

I honestly haven't seen much in the way of "holier than thous", though there are a few who think we deserve special treatment because we're Saints irrespective of anything !

 

I think mostly people are a bit dumbstruck that the FL is taking the line they have with a club who aren't legally in administration (I think a lot of people are now resigned to the -10 even with the Stockport argument considered) and for that reason also can't provide the appropriate method of exiting admin to suit the FL.

 

We've got a ten point deduction in the "spirit" of the law, and we've got a buyer and that satisfies the creditors, which is all the CVA achieves.

 

The FL wants its cake and eat it, spirit of the law for our not-legally-in-administration-but-we'll-say-they-are-to-avoid-loopholes punishment, but letter of the law for having no CVA even though the creditors are happy with the takeover.

 

Of course the worst part is that additional punishment makes the club unsaleable...