Wootton Bassett

[benjii]

The point I was making was the oh so prescious rights of freedom of speech are unequally applied.

 

They will be allowed their march, but would I be allowed my cultural extravaganza? I think not.

 

Either it should be freedom of speech for all, or not freedom of speech at all.

 

They managed to stop this guy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Haw

 

...as it didn't suit Nu Labours agenda.

 

I don't see them stopping this march which is designed to provoke and insight.

 

I know, JB - I wasn't trying to insinuate you were a thug. But undoubtedly they would be attracted by the prospect of a good dust up.

 

"Cultural extravaganza" - lol.

 

I think the more relevant question is this: "Would you be allowed to have your cultural extravaganza in Jedda, for example"? I don't want Britain to be like that and so I would allow these mediaeval numbskills to have their silly little march. I mean, FFS, a march is pretty passe and simple in itself and when it's based on ideology predicated on an imaginary friend it is just laughable. Laugh it off, I say.

[Verbal]

I think that a very salient point has been missed in this whole debate.

 

Like it or not, we are at war, both in Afghanistan and in our own country. These "British" people (regardless of race or religion) are fifth columnists, enemies of the State and are openly declaring their hostility and opposition to our (their) country and as such should be regarded as the enemy within our midst.

 

Forget human rights, freedom of speech etc. and treat them exactly as they are....enemies!

 

Again, well done on helping to do the extremists' work for them.

[benjii]

What would be funnier is if the protest was allowed to take place and absolutely everyone went in their houses and totally ignored them. They would feel very silly.

 

Exactly. This is the answer.

[dawsonvoodoo]

and im going to sell bacon sandwiches,i`ll make a fortune.

[benjii]

I think that a very salient point has been missed in this whole debate.

 

Like it or not, we are at war, both in Afghanistan and in our own country. These "British" people (regardless of race or religion) are fifth columnists, enemies of the State and are openly declaring their hostility and opposition to our (their) country and as such should be regarded as the enemy within our midst.

 

Forget human rights, freedom of speech etc. and treat them exactly as they are....enemies!

 

Are you called Ludwig and do you live in 1930s Germany?

[OldNick]

It is a tasteless stunt and I hope all the decent muslims who are the vast majority, speak out against it. That is the only way for the divisions ever to be mended. The muslims have to show the country that they do want to be united with everybody and integrate into the laws and ways of the land.

[OldNick]

I think that a very salient point has been missed in this whole debate.

 

Like it or not, we are at war, both in Afghanistan and in our own country. These "British" people (regardless of race or religion) are fifth columnists, enemies of the State and are openly declaring their hostility and opposition to our (their) country and as such should be regarded as the enemy within our midst.

 

Forget human rights, freedom of speech etc. and treat them exactly as they are....enemies!

Sadly religion has no country. It is impossible to know all your enemies and that is why this 'war' will never end.

[unionhotel]

Again, well done on helping to do the extremists' work for them.

 

I think that what you're suggesting is that we should roll over and give them some sort of credence for their beliefs. Wrong! We should fight them tooth and nail and use whatever means we have at our disposal. Remember it's a war.

[aintforever]

This thing should not go ahead because it is designed to provoke - plain and simple. Just like if a far right group decide to march on a mosque.

 

Muslims banging on about freedom of speech is the most hypcritical thing I have ever heard, some artist draws a cartoon and even moderate ones are crying like a bunch of babies.

[Block 5]

 

Like it or not, we are at war,

 

That's funny.

I don't remember any declaration of war by us or anyone else.

All wars have a beginning.

When did this 'war' begin?

[OldNick]

I mean, FFS, a march is pretty passe and simple in itself and when it's based on ideology predicated on an imaginary friend it is just laughable. Laugh it off, I say.

and 40 virgins, sounds a bit more interesting then.....but of course it does mean 40 mother in laws they never mention that do they

[unionhotel]

Are you called Ludwig and do you live in 1930s Germany?

 

No. I'm Johnny Bulldog, decendant of more illustrious and dogmatic Brits. Circa 1954.

[OldNick]

That's funny.

I don't remember any declaration of war by us or anyone else.

All wars have a beginning.

When did this 'war' begin?

did't Bush and Blair declare war on terrorism?

[unionhotel]

That's funny.

I don't remember any declaration of war by us or anyone else.

All wars have a beginning.

When did this 'war' begin?

 

9/11, 7/7, or a host of other atrocities committed in the name of Allah.

 

v

[benjii]

I think that what you're suggesting is that we should roll over and give them some sort of credence for their beliefs. Wrong! We should fight them tooth and nail and use whatever means we have at our disposal. Remember it's a war.

 

[View From The Top]

The point I was making was the oh so prescious rights of freedom of speech are unequally applied.

 

They will be allowed their march, but would I be allowed my cultural extravaganza? I think not.

 

Either it should be freedom of speech for all, or not freedom of speech at all.

 

They managed to stop this guy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Haw

 

...as it didn't suit Nu Labours agenda.

 

I don't see them stopping this march which is designed to provoke and insight.

 

As insightful as it maybe I believe they intend to incite.

[Verbal]

I think that what you're suggesting is that we should roll over and give them some sort of credence for their beliefs. Wrong! We should fight them tooth and nail and use whatever means we have at our disposal. Remember it's a war.

 

I don't think a single person on this thread has suggested anything so patently absurd. The issue is of tactics - namely, how to defuse the extremists' rhetorical (and other) weapons.

 

What you are suggesting is EXACTLY what they want! They want you to be manning the barricades at any demo, pelting them with bricks. Do you really want to give them what they want? If so, it makes you barely better than them, and by doing so, you've joined in an unwitting alliance with them.

[benjii]

This thing should not go ahead because it is designed to provoke - plain and simple. Just like if a far right group decide to march on a mosque.

 

Muslims banging on about freedom of speech is the most hypcritical thing I have ever heard, some artist draws a cartoon and even moderate ones are crying like a bunch of babies.

 

Well indeed, they are idiots.

 

But let them be idiots. Let them have a march - there will be what, 100 people there? 200 maybe? Ignore them, laugh at them internally, pity them for being so deluded and ignorant and then go and have a nice cup of tea.

 

It won't make the tinyest jot of difference to anything if it is ignored.

[Thedelldays]

I know, JB - I wasn't trying to insinuate you were a thug. But undoubtedly they would be attracted by the prospect of a good dust up.

 

"Cultural extravaganza" - lol.

 

I think the more relevant question is this: "Would you be allowed to have your cultural extravaganza in Jedda, for example"? I don't want Britain to be like that and so I would allow these mediaeval numbskills to have their silly little march. I mean, FFS, a march is pretty passe and simple in itself and when it's based on ideology predicated on an imaginary friend it is just laughable. Laugh it off, I say.

 

 

have you been around the gulf/muslim states..?

 

I have..and by not allowing this to happen at Wootton Bassett (note, not stopping it full stop) we will still be nothing like "jedda" or "damascus"

 

it is all too easy to sit there and say "just laugh it off"...to many people who would not normally pay attention to these groups, marching like this is an utter insult to the country..

 

yes it is only little old wootton bassett...but what that place represents and many feel what the locals do is on behalf of the majority of the nation..

 

people are allowed to protest more freely in the UK than most places on the planet...the UK is generally MORE tolerant than most places on the planet...but there has to be a line..and this is it...

 

IF this is allowed to happen it will do nothing but marginalise MORE moderate muslims, and just generally be the biggest voting tool for the BNP to use...ffs..

 

no one is saying they cant protest, but in the name of respect, tastefullness, the families of the dead servicemen, the people of wootton bassett and in just plain common sense, they cannot protest here..

 

that is not being right wing, oippressive...it is being sensible to an area that represents something good about the the UK

[View From The Top]

Like Union Hotel I consider them as 5th Columnists. However, giving them what they want, a full on confrontation, whilst appealing at a base level, gives them an easy victory.

[benjii]

have you been around the gulf/muslim states..?

 

I have..and by not allowing this to happen at Wootton Bassett (note, not stopping it full stop) we will still be nothing like "jedda" or "damascus"

 

it is all too easy to sit there and say "just laugh it off"...to many people who would not normally pay attention to these groups, marching like this is an utter insult to the country..

 

yes it is only little old wootton bassett...but what that place represents and many feel what the locals do is on behalf of the majority of the nation..

 

people are allowed to protest more freely in the UK than most places on the planet...the UK is generally MORE tolerant than most places on the planet...but there has to be a line..and this is it...

 

IF this is allowed to happen it will do nothing but marginalise MORE moderate muslims, and just generally be the biggest voting tool for the BNP to use...ffs..

 

no one is saying they cant protest, but in the name of respect, tastefullness, the families of the dead servicemen, the people of wootton bassett and in just plain common sense, they cannot protest here..

 

that is not being right wing, oippressive...it is being sensible to an area that represents something good about the the UK

 

I think that is a perfectly fair opinion actually and I expect the police would seek to stop this march.

[View From The Top]

Let them have a march, just not there.

[Verbal]

Let them have a march, just not there.

 

Exactly. And from what the Wiltshire Police seem to be saying, that's what's likely to happen.

[Thedelldays]

Sorry if I keep going on..

 

I have been to Wootton Bassett..not something I would normally write about but do know of someone who passed through the place in a box and what the locals do there off their own backs is something that is very special...many who do it do NOT agree with the conflict but that is a different arguement...what they do there is something that we cannot allow to be tarnished...

[aintforever]

Well indeed, they are idiots.

 

But let them be idiots. Let them have a march - there will be what, 100 people there? 200 maybe? Ignore them, laugh at them internally, pity them for being so deluded and ignorant and then go and have a nice cup of tea.

 

It won't make the tinyest jot of difference to anything if it is ignored.

 

It wont be ignored though, far right groups would turn up and turn it into a riot.

 

It would also be the best recruiting campaign the BNP ever had, because the vast majority of British people will see it as our soft as ****e government bending over backwards for the Muslims again.

[View From The Top]

Sorry if I keep going on..

 

I have been to Wootton Bassett..not something I would normally write about but do know of someone who passed through the place in a box and what the locals do there off their own backs is something that is very special...many who do it do NOT agree with the conflict but that is a different arguement...what they do there is something that we cannot allow to be tarnished...

 

Exactly.

 

It's not about the rights and wrongs of a war, it's about respect, grief and gratitude.

[unionhotel]

I don't think a single person on this thread has suggested anything so patently absurd. The issue is of tactics - namely, how to defuse the extremists' rhetorical (and other) weapons.

 

What you are suggesting is EXACTLY what they want! They want you to be manning the barricades at any demo, pelting them with bricks. Do you really want to give them what they want? If so, it makes you barely better than them, and by doing so, you've joined in an unwitting alliance with them.

 

Thank you for expressing your opinion. However, I didn't for one moment suggest that 'manning the barricades' was the answer and nor do I advocate violence. What I did suggest was that we use the resources available to us, ie intelligence and suppression to ensure that this group are not allowed to march or demonstrate in a place that has come to symbolise our Country's collective grief at the deaths of our soldiers. Would you allow them to desecrate war graves?

[Block 5]

9/11, 7/7, or a host of other atrocities committed in the name of Allah.

 

v

 

Silly answer to a serious question.

We are constantly being told that we are at war, but when was there a declaration?

[Gingeletiss]

Silly answer to a serious question.

We are constantly being told that we are at war, but when was there a declaration?

 

Possibly when they declaired war on all Western country's, or maybe even further back, when their teachings declaired war on all those 'non-muslims'!!.

 

Or do you want it in writing!!!

[Block 5]

Possibly when they declaired war on all Western country's, or maybe even further back, when their teachings declaired war on all those 'non-muslims'!!.

 

Or do you want it in writing!!!

 

'They'? Who are 'they'?

Which 'teachings' do you mean? Please be specific.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

http://www.wiltshire.police.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1107&catid=43:news&Itemid=50

 

Thanks for this. So far then it looks like the march is currently not a legal one and, he said hopefully, is bright enough on the Police radar to warrant their suspicion and attention.

[Torrent Of Abuse]

Well, there's that famous quote by Chamberlain that really underlines the thinking of the British government at the time:

 

'How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing!'

 

Hitler, everyone expected, would go around invading bits of Europe to his heart's content, but as long as he didn't turn his attention to Britain, that would be fine - and that there could even be a British dividend in doing a deal with the new Superpower in Europe. That is realpolitik in a nutshell - informed by the horrors of WW1 certainly, but realpolitik nonetheless.

 

I hardly think the British Empire was expecting Hitler to go on a rampage or that they could gain from such a thing. The inter-war years were in fact aimed at German containment. It would certainly be unfathomable to consider the sort of treaty we had with Poland that took is into the war if we expected this to be someone else's struggle.

 

You would do well to consider these words from Stanley Baldwin, who served as PM three times in the inter-war years. They show the anti-war sentiment far better: "Our policy is not one of seeking security through rearmament but through disarmament. Our aim is the reduction of armaments and then the complete abolition of all national armaments and the creation of an International Police Force under the League...". You might also consider the Peace Ballot of 1935 discussing disarmament issues whilst in the face of German rearmament.

 

The inter-war years were years where hope of an unending peace overrode our common sense. They were not years of realpolitik. They were years where leaders of countries assumed everyone feared war like they did. Sadly, as with this talk of Freedom of Speech, not everyone felt the same way. If you offer your soft underbelly, not everyone is going to give it a tickle. Some will just thank you for the opportunity to stick the knife in.

[dubai_phil]

I think that a very salient point has been missed in this whole debate.

 

Like it or not, we are at war, both in Afghanistan and in our own country. These "British" people (regardless of race or religion) are fifth columnists, enemies of the State and are openly declaring their hostility and opposition to our (their) country and as such should be regarded as the enemy within our midst.

 

Forget human rights, freedom of speech etc. and treat them exactly as they are....enemies!

 

Like it or not, if any of these "extremist Islamists" tried to march against the war in Afghanistan in their OWN country of origin, they would spend a long time behind bars being regulalry beaten.

 

In fact the reason that most of them or their parents or leaders are IN Britain is because extremist states like Saudi and Yemen kicked them all out during the 70's and 80's as being TOO radical.

 

Britain has a very dirty part in the current terror organisations growing around the world. They let them fester because of respect for the human rights of the "oppressed" who claimed asylum seeking religious freedoms.

 

Then you idiots paid them their social and let them build their Mosques and allowed them to raise funds to send their brain washed kids to the Madras (sic) schools.

 

They have a right to protest? Oh brilliant, you can bet that every editor of every extremist web site in the world will be laughing their t*ts off at the sheer idiocy.

 

Extremists do not have any interest in Human Rights for ANY group or religion. So why the F*CK should British people show any respect for THEIR Human Rights.

 

Why on earth are Muslim countries quietly supporting the war in Afghanistan?

Why the heck are the Saudi's fighting the insurgents in North Yemen. The Muslim Nations get it, why the hell don't the woolly eyed liberal morons in the UK PC Thought Police?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

have you been around the gulf/muslim states..?

 

I have..and by not allowing this to happen at Wootton Bassett (note, not stopping it full stop) we will still be nothing like "jedda" or "damascus"

 

it is all too easy to sit there and say "just laugh it off"...to many people who would not normally pay attention to these groups, marching like this is an utter insult to the country..

 

yes it is only little old wootton bassett...but what that place represents and many feel what the locals do is on behalf of the majority of the nation..

 

people are allowed to protest more freely in the UK than most places on the planet...the UK is generally MORE tolerant than most places on the planet...but there has to be a line..and this is it...

 

IF this is allowed to happen it will do nothing but marginalise MORE moderate muslims, and just generally be the biggest voting tool for the BNP to use...ffs..

 

no one is saying they cant protest, but in the name of respect, tastefullness, the families of the dead servicemen, the people of wootton bassett and in just plain common sense, they cannot protest here..

 

that is not being right wing, oippressive...it is being sensible to an area that represents something good about the the UK

 

Absolutely spot on. It's their very use of tasteless and disrespectful action which is designed to draw in apposite action from the right wing extremists. They are looking to draw in Middle England. To win sympathy for the way 'that we were victimised by right wing thugs purely for holding a peaceful demonstration' while all the time hoping that Middle England forgets that they have used Wootton Bassett for their political gain.

[Johnny Bognor]

As insightful as it maybe I believe they intend to incite.

 

Yes you are right, in the same way as I am incited by teachers who ignore the point being made in order to concentrate on spelling and gramma

[Barney Trubble]

I say let them do it. It's all being orgainsed by that Choudary chap who is just a publicity-seeking moron. Let him have his five minutes of fame and just ignore him.

 

I imagine though that the police will have their work cut out that day, because it seems pretty obvious that the EDL or others will most likely turn up to wreck the whole thing. Could get messy.

 

I knew it wouldn't be long before someone would look to shift the blame for any potential trouble away from the Muslims, who are are actually looking for trouble with this sick publicity stunt[in my opinion].

 

So, if the EDL organise a march and some Muslim groups come along to protest against it and trouble does occur, it's the EDL's fault.

 

Then when another equally sickening group, who just happen to be Muslim, organise a march and other groups turn up, then it's the "EDL or others will most likely turn up to wreck the whole thing"?

 

Can't Muslims actually be to blame for anything?

 

Why do you wrongly assume that it's the "others" who will turn up looking for trouble?

 

Can't the "others" be peaceful people who are just looking to let it be known that they are appalled at the gall of these people and want to vent their feelings?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FWIW, I

[bridge too far]

^

It's not 'muslims' - it's an extreme faction who happen to be muslim.

 

In the same way as the EDL are an extreme faction who happen to white (probably not religious though).

 

Extremism of any sort is dangerous.

[Barney Trubble]

Therefore they are 'Muslim' - I am fully aware of the difference and they don't happen to be Muslim, they choose/chose to be Muslim, they are human beings, not objects.

 

Just as when I was old enough to think for myself , I chose to be non-religious, despite a strong Catholic upbringing.

 

If I was behind this march would that make me and my type an extreme form of non-religious/atheist/humanists who just happen to be non-religious/atheist/humansists?

 

Extreme group or not, they are Muslim, just as if they were an extreme mad as a box of Badgers 'Christian' group from the deep south of America.

 

I fail to see your point apart from wanting to split hairs or be patronising.

[bridge too far]

^

My point is that there will be a tendency by some to class all muslims as extremists based on the actions of a few. Simple as that.

 

Extremism is dangerous, as is generalisation (not that I'm accusing you of generalisation BTW)

[Yeovil Saint]

The thing is that if it was allowed to happen, it would be seen that there's a couple of hundred of them max. Just think about that, a tiny fraction of the Blue Few.

[RedAndWhite91]

The thing is that if it was allowed to happen, it would be seen that there's a couple of hundred of them max. Just think about that, a tiny fraction of the Blue Few.

 

A lot more dangerous than the Blue Few though, no matter how 'ard Portsmouth fans think they are.

 

You can't disregard a group on it's size. The DAP formed in a hotel, held meetings in beer halls. Hitler joined in 1919 and was only it's 55th member. He took over, changed the name to the NSDAP, or the Nazi party, and the rest as they say, is history.

[Barney Trubble]

^

My point is that there will be a tendency by some to class all muslims as extremists based on the actions of a few. Simple as that.

 

Extremism is dangerous, as is generalisation (not that I'm accusing you of generalisation BTW)

 

Sorry, thanks for clearing that up.

 

I see what you mean now and I quite agree, as once again, there will be an assumption that all Muslims have the same ethos as the likes of this little tin pot group.

 

Maybe people are right when they say that they should be allowed their march and then it'll be forgot about. I can fully understand people turning up to abuse those that do carry these symbolic coffins, after all, even peace loving people can't control their emotions at times.

 

They should not be allowed to march through Wootton Bassett though, that's just sickness.

[Thedelldays]

I really still cannot believe we have people in our country that would allow this group a voice

[Gingeletiss]

I really still cannot believe we have people in our country that would allow this group a voice

 

Blame our left wing, liberal thinking teachers, for teaching this thought process for the past 20 years. We have a brain washed generation IMHO.

[View From The Top]

Blame our left wing, liberal thinking teachers, for teaching this thought process for the past 20 years. We have a brain washed generation IMHO.

 

Total bolloc*s.

 

Like it all not this group is perfectly legal and entitled to their view, no matter how warped we all believe it.

 

That's one of the "joys" of democracy and it tends to be lost on some that denying them their freedom of speech plays straight into their hands.

 

By banning freedom of speech we take a step down the road that they want!

[Mao Cap]

In that case, I am going to march up and down Wootten Bassett with a large copy of the Satanic Verses. I will also display those sketches by that Danish artist in a Wooton Bassett art exhibition.

 

It won't be a protest, just an appreciation of art and literature. Coincidentally, I will choose to do it on the same day as the Islamic march.

 

I don't agree with you on much but that would actually be awesome (and hilarious), a lot better than screeching "You faaaaking shkaaaam" at a gaggle of weirdos over some policemen.

 

On the issue itself - the march will almost certainly not be allowed, btw, and the group is probably not even considering the possibility that it would be (I doubt they've ever been out of Luton or north London and can even find Wiltshire on a map tbh), but just the idea of it has already served it's purpose by getting people frothing at the mouth.

 

Increasing anti-Muslim sentiment and recruiting for the BNP or EDL or whoever is the whole point of stunts like this. Extremist arseholes need each other to improve recruitment.

[View From The Top]

I really still cannot believe we have people in our country that would allow this group a voice

 

How is it different from allowing the Republican groups a voice during the troubles in Ulster?

[Thedelldays]

How is it different from allowing the Republican groups a voice during the troubles in Ulster?

that is also wrong...two wrongs dont make a right...I would like to think we dont live in an eye-for-an-eye society...I hope we may have learned and moved on...

 

this is what these people are about..

 

Notorious hate preacher Anjem Choudary is calling for the palace to be renamed Buckingham Masjid, the Arabic word for mosque. The Mall, which approaches the palace, would become Masjid Road.

Choudary, the right-hand man of exiled cleric Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, spoke out as he urged Muslims across Britain to join Saturday’s rally to demand a complete overhaul of the British legal system and the introduction of sharia courts.

...

In a rambling diatribe, Choudary wrote on the Islam4UK website (Ed, Note: You can find that rambling diatribe and artists renderings of Buckingham Masjid here): “There is a spark that has ignited and its flame has become unstoppable. “In recent years the world has witnessed an Islamic resurgence which continues to grow in strength.

“We find ourselves in the year 2009, waiting for Rome to fall, waiting for the White House to fall and indeed waiting for Buckingham Palace to fall.”

Choudary said that under sharia law the Queen’s official residence in London would have a dome fitted and a tannoy system to call followers to prayer.

The Palace would be used as a judiciary court for handing down sharia punishments and a detention place for “prisoners of war”.

In addition, the building would become the headquarters of the Islamic States’ supreme leadership and the Department of Information and Culture.

Choudary also called for the Crown Jewels to be melted down into “more appealing jewellery, free from idolatrous engravings or symbols such as crosses or human beings”.

Islam4UK’s website shows mock-up images of the Palace as a mosque and the Crown Jewels being melted.

Choudary added: “At present, Buckingham Palace is nothing more than a hollow building exploited by the rich and withheld from any real use.

“Under the sharia this would never happen, rather the British community would see it converted into a flourishing mosque which would be of a great benefit, not only for those residing in London but also the country as a whole.”

The Islam4UK movement is made up of leading members of the banned radical al-Muhajiroun group which was once led by Choudary. Around 15 per cent of people convicted in the UK of terrorism-related offences in the last decade were either members of the group or had links to it.

[View From The Top]

that is also wrong...two wrongs dont make a right...I would like to think we dont live in an eye-for-an-eye society...I hope we may have learned and moved on...

 

this is what these people are about..

 

I know who it is and I've been aware of him and his odious views for years.

 

However, in a democracy we have the right to free speech. By removing that you start on the path to a society that they want.

 

Let them have their poxy march elsewhere and watch 100 or so no marks shout their slogans and wave their banners and let the rest of the world see what a total bunch of cun*s they are.

[bridge too far]

I know who it is and I've been aware of him and his odious views for years.

 

However, in a democracy we have the right to free speech. By removing that you start on the path to a society that they want.

 

Let them have their poxy march elsewhere and watch 100 or so no marks shout their slogans and wave their banners and let the rest of the world see what a total bunch of cun*s they are.

 

Exactly - just like we should afford the BNP freedom of speech. They've shown themselves to be the idiots many of us thought they were.