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Saw the UKIP deputy leader on the telly saying that 72% of UK legislation came from the EU.

 

The R4 programme "More or Less" which looks at the statistics behind sensationalist claims decided to analyse this.

 

What actually happened was that the EU president made a speech where he said that 72% of EU legislation came from the European Parliament (and was therefore voted on by elected members). The other 28% came from the Council of Ministers.

 

Another interesting fact that UKIP decline to mention is that even if we withdrew from the EU, we would still need EU legislation if we wished to continue trading with them. Even China has EU legislation on their statute books regarding quality of goods, safety standards etc.

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I've just had a UKIP election leaflet through the door.

 

UKIP are an anti-immigration party.

 

Our local UKIP candidate is one Nikolai Tolstoy.

 

His father was a Russian emigré.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Tolstoy

 

I think that's quite weird.

 

I'm probably wrong on this, and tbf I cant be bothered to trawl through their literature or manifesto, but I was always under the impression that UKIP weren't so much anti-immigration as anti-european-integration. If that is the case, I probably agree with them that we dont need any more movement in that particular direction, especially when it comes to the issue of the euro, that to my mind is the one plus point of gordon mcbroon; he's made it clear beyond any reasonable doubt that he wont go there.

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Really, UKIP are just a band of slightly whacko eccentrics who are clubbed together under a common banner.

 

Some are harmless, others are malevolent, none of them understand wider issues very well, they're all a bit lunatic!

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If you think MP's expenses are a scandal than what about the European Parliament, let's open up their expenses.

 

How many years has it been since the EU's accounts were signed off by auditors?

 

The people of this Country entered and voted to stay in an Economic bloc, not a super state with it's own President (unelected), anthem, Currency, flag and laws that overrule soverign parliaments. I can now be arrested for something I've done in this Country, which is not an offence here, but is in a fellow EU member state. How can that be right? There's no doubt the British people would not have voted to stay in had they known the route the Euro Loons were going to take. It has all been done by stealth and by lies and deception. Every time a member state gets to vote on Europe, they vote against it. From Denmark voting against the Maastricht Treaty, to the Irish against Nice and Lisbon, even the French voted against the original constituation. But the views of the voters make no difference to the European project. Voters who deliver the wrong verdict are told to vote again and again until the right decision is made. Deals are done and promises broken, to get the project rammed through, nothing is allowed to stand in the way of the European Superstate.

 

In the last European elections UKIP received the second highest amount of votes after the Tory party. This suggests that the British people are more in tune with the right's mistrust of the EU, than the European leaders want to admit.

 

Anyone who thinks France, Spain, Germany and Ireland would stop trading with us if we left the EU is clearly deluded. We can make trade agreements with these countries, without being tied to them, without being governed by them.

 

However, if the British people want further intergration, then so be it. Let us have a referendum on every new treaty, then we can see.It wont happen of course, like the Lisbon Treaty we will be lied to and denied a say. The reason they wont let us have our say, because their project will be derailed by the British people.

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If you think MP's expenses are a scandal than what about the European Parliament, let's open up their expenses.

 

How many years has it been since the EU's accounts were signed off by auditors?

 

The people of this Country entered and voted to stay in an Economic bloc, not a super state with it's own President (unelected), anthem, Currency, flag and laws that overrule soverign parliaments. I can now be arrested for something I've done in this Country, which is not an offence here, but is in a fellow EU member state. How can that be right? There's no doubt the British people would not have voted to stay in had they known the route the Euro Loons were going to take. It has all been done by stealth and by lies and deception. Every time a member state gets to vote on Europe, they vote against it. From Denmark voting against the Maastricht Treaty, to the Irish against Nice and Lisbon, even the French voted against the original constituation. But the views of the voters make no difference to the European project. Voters who deliver the wrong verdict are told to vote again and again until the right decision is made. Deals are done and promises broken, to get the project rammed through, nothing is allowed to stand in the way of the European Superstate.

 

In the last European elections UKIP received the second highest amount of votes after the Tory party. This suggests that the British people are more in tune with the right's mistrust of the EU, than the European leaders want to admit.

 

Anyone who thinks France, Spain, Germany and Ireland would stop trading with us if we left the EU is clearly deluded. We can make trade agreements with these countries, without being tied to them, without being governed by them.

 

However, if the British people want further intergration, then so be it. Let us have a referendum on every new treaty, then we can see.It wont happen of course, like the Lisbon Treaty we will be lied to and denied a say. The reason they wont let us have our say, because their project will be derailed by the British people.

 

+1. It was Martha Andreason or somebody, the chief auditor, that got sacked for saying exactly that.

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We are in the EU and like it or not we will be staying in the EU.

 

That war was settled in the early 1990s when Major defeat Bill Cash and others.

 

However, personally, I'd like a simple yes/no referendum on whether we should remain in the EU.

 

It's not as simple as that, all I want is what the Irish people were given (twice, because they voted the wrong way the first time), what the French were given, what the Danes were given, a say in further intergration.

 

Most people want us to be in the EEC. They do not want further intergration, they do not want laws made in Europe to over ride laws made in Westminster, and they do not want more and more treaties rammed through Parliament and a EU Superstate. The ruling classes know this and that is why we are denied a say, denied a referendum and Countries told they've got it wrong, vote again, when voting against the EU.

 

For years and years this corrupt body has not had it's accounts signed off.

 

 

I can be arrested in my own home for doing something that is legal in this country, yet illigal in Germany, without even setting foot in Germany. If you really believe that is right, then put it to the British people. I dont, and I have a feeling that they wont either. Hense why we were denied a vote (despite a manifesto promise).

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It's not as simple as that, all I want is what the Irish people were given (twice, because they voted the wrong way the first time), what the French were given, what the Danes were given, a say in further intergration.

 

Most people want us to be in the EEC. They do not want further intergration, they do not want laws made in Europe to over ride laws made in Westminster, and they do not want more and more treaties rammed through Parliament and a EU Superstate. The ruling classes know this and that is why we are denied a say, denied a referendum and Countries told they've got it wrong, vote again, when voting against the EU.

 

For years and years this corrupt body has not had it's accounts signed off.

 

 

I can be arrested in my own home for doing something that is legal in this country, yet illigal in Germany, without even setting foot in Germany. If you really believe that is right, then put it to the British people. I dont, and I have a feeling that they wont either. Hense why we were denied a vote (despite a manifesto promise).

 

 

It's all far to complex for the majority (and your wrong about the law thing by the way) to be settled in any way but a Yes we stay in or No we get out test.

 

Like the majority of my generation I'm comfortable with being "in" Europe but again, like the majority I suggest, I'm very uncomfortable about being governed "by" Europe.

 

If it came to a yes/no referendum I genuinely don't know which way I'd vote.

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Really, UKIP are just a band of slightly whacko eccentrics who are clubbed together under a common banner.

 

Some are harmless, others are malevolent, none of them understand wider issues very well, they're all a bit lunatic!

i agree they live in a fantasy world but alot of people are attracted to their view of europe the reality is we are never going to leave eu and if we had a vote,most people would be scared to be outside one of the biggest trading blocks when they are faced with the reality of what that entails. .

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i agree they live in a fantasy world but alot of people are attracted to their view of europe the reality is we are never going to leave eu and if we had a vote,most people would be scared to be outside one of the biggest trading blocks when they are faced with the reality of what that entails. .

 

It's a fallacy to suggest or believe that leaving the EU would stop us trading with Europe.

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It's a fallacy to suggest or believe that leaving the EU would stop us trading with Europe.

 

But it is also possibly a fallacy to believe we can break away politically and yet for that to have no effect what so ever on our trading relationships with Europe?

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i agree they live in a fantasy world but alot of people are attracted to their view of europe the reality is we are never going to leave eu and if we had a vote,most people would be scared to be outside one of the biggest trading blocks when they are faced with the reality of what that entails. .

 

If you think the population of the UK would, given the choice, would vote to stay in "Europe" then you are seriously deluded.

 

If you think that they give a flying fook if it would effect trade then you are even more deluded.

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If you think the population of the UK would, given the choice, would vote to stay in "Europe" then you are seriously deluded.

 

If you think that they give a flying fook if it would effect trade then you are even more deluded.

 

dream on i heard the same nonsense in the 70,s when the left of the labour party were against eu and the public was against the eec.

what happened- the choice in or out of the eec,we voted to stay in.:D

we will never leave hence the tories silence on this matter.

Edited by solentstars
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dream on i heard the same nonsense in the 70,s when labour was the anti eu party and the public was against the eec.

what happened- the choice in or out of the eec,we voted to stay in.:D

we will never leave hence the tories silence on this matter.

 

I'm not sure if you're just acting a bit dense so I'll cut you some slack but this isn't the 1970s, it's now and the majority of the UK population would vote to leave without even knowing why we should stay as they don't care.

 

It's the same population who would bring back hanging and stop immigration.

 

Now, I'm not saying we should leave as I feel European and have benefited from membership but I understand how a vast tract of the population would vote.

 

Still, you keep believing that the readers of the Sun, Mail, Express would vote on yes/no based on trade and I'll carry on chatting to people who actually know what they are on about. No offence intended, but you're not one of them.

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I'm not sure if you're just acting a bit dense so I'll cut you some slack but this isn't the 1970s, it's now and the majority of the UK population would vote to leave without even knowing why we should stay as they don't care.

 

It's the same population who would bring back hanging and stop immigration.

 

Now, I'm not saying we should leave as I feel European and have benefited from membership but I understand how a vast tract of the population would vote.

 

Still, you keep believing that the readers of the Sun, Mail, Express would vote on yes/no based on trade and I'll carry on chatting to people who actually know what they are on about. No offence intended, but you're not one of them.

 

I agree with you VFTT. Many of the general public have changed their minds about Europe and I beleive the public would vote no to Europe, however I don't beleive it will ever happen asn I don't beleive the major parites have the balls to call a referendum on the issue.

 

Also can I ask who in this forum voted for Herman Van Rompuy and José Manuel Barroso?

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Really, UKIP are just a band of slightly whacko eccentrics who are clubbed together under a common banner.

 

Some are harmless, others are malevolent, none of them understand wider issues very well, they're all a bit lunatic!

i agree most of them are living in a world which disappeared when we had the with the commonwealth .

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I've just had a UKIP election leaflet through the door.

 

UKIP are an anti-immigration party.

 

Our local UKIP candidate is one Nikolai Tolstoy.

 

His father was a Russian emigré.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Tolstoy

 

I think that's quite weird.

 

There's a BNP member who is a Sikh

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/20/sikh-man-bnp-member

Edited by JackFrost
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DD i take it you are too young to remember the last Tory government and what they regarding the NHS.

If we're to judge today's political parties by what they did years/decades ago then I'll see your yesteryear Tory party and raise you a yesteryear labour party. Good game, good game...

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From my extremely simple view of the EEC debate :-

 

I think people are confusing things (some politicians deliberately so).

 

There is/was the EEC a conferderation or group of trading nations

And the EU a political/legislative/financial Union of nations.

 

Whilst most people would agree that a Trading confederation is a good thing, few want all the political integration and lose of Country identity/indepedence apart from an 'elite' group of politicians who can see it as the ultimate power hungry/gravy train that it is.

 

If the British people were granted a referendum on an EEC and a seperate one on the EU , I believe they would vote for a trading agrreement but not this full on rush into this political union.

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because it is so good now..

no matter who is in charge, it will be cut...the ring fencing thing is all pledges and promisies..

 

My experiences of the NHS since 1997 (and they have been frequent having been diagnosed with a chronic disease) have been nothing but fantastic. Short waiting times, excellent staff, fabulous aftercare, the list goes on and on!!

 

I cannot stand people who run down the NHS and the life-saving a noble work it does!!

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My experiences of the NHS since 1997 (and they have been frequent having been diagnosed with a chronic disease) have been nothing but fantastic. Short waiting times, excellent staff, fabulous aftercare, the list goes on and on!!

 

I cannot stand people who run down the NHS and the life-saving a noble work it does!!

i agree my mum who is 86 has nothing but great service from them,its one of the great things about our country.

i for one will never run the nhs down.

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My experiences of the NHS since 1997 (and they have been frequent having been diagnosed with a chronic disease) have been nothing but fantastic. Short waiting times, excellent staff, fabulous aftercare, the list goes on and on!!

 

I cannot stand people who run down the NHS and the life-saving a noble work it does!!

 

so say december 1996..it was nothing but terrible..?

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My experiences of the NHS since 1997 (and they have been frequent having been diagnosed with a chronic disease) have been nothing but fantastic. Short waiting times, excellent staff, fabulous aftercare, the list goes on and on!!

 

I cannot stand people who run down the NHS and the life-saving a noble work it does!!

Some of my close family work in the NHS. I won't divulge the information that gives me access to as it would burst the rosey bubble. It may (and often does) look good from theoutside but behind the scenes there is often dismay at how inefficiently and illogically the nhs is run. Some of what I hear genuinely astounds me, and that's from a hospital that gets high ratings

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From my extremely simple view of the EEC debate :-

 

I think people are confusing things (some politicians deliberately so).

 

There is/was the EEC a conferderation or group of trading nations

And the EU a political/legislative/financial Union of nations.

 

Whilst most people would agree that a Trading confederation is a good thing, few want all the political integration and lose of Country identity/indepedence apart from an 'elite' group of politicians who can see it as the ultimate power hungry/gravy train that it is.

 

If the British people were granted a referendum on an EEC and a seperate one on the EU , I believe they would vote for a trading agrreement but not this full on rush into this political union.

 

This.

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From my extremely simple view of the EEC debate :-

 

I think people are confusing things (some politicians deliberately so).

 

There is/was the EEC a conferderation or group of trading nations

And the EU a political/legislative/financial Union of nations.

 

 

If the British people were granted a referendum on an EEC and a seperate one on the EU , I believe they would vote for a trading agrreement but not this full on rush into this political union.

 

At the time of the referendum in 1975 many predicted that the EEC as we were presented with, would be the thin end of a wedge and inevitably lead to the Eurosuperstate we now have.Of course this was derided as 'scaremongering' and sensationalist paranoia.

 

But as you say people elected to join a trading union not the panEuropean Federal State.

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At the time of the referendum in 1975 many predicted that the EEC as we were presented with, would be the thin end of a wedge and inevitably lead to the Eurosuperstate we now have.Of course this was derided as 'scaremongering' and sensationalist paranoia.

 

But as you say people elected to join a trading union not the panEuropean Federal State.

 

Spot on, the whole European project has been one big con job on the British people. If the British people could have a "Life On Mars" moment and go back to the mid 70's, I've no doubt in my mind they would have voted to leave.

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I dont know what peoples main beef with the EU is. We get all the benefits, fee trade, easy travel, houses in France /Spain etc with very few drawbacks. Most of the bits we didnt like we opt out of - Euro, Schengen agreement etc

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My experiences of the NHS since 1997 (and they have been frequent having been diagnosed with a chronic disease) have been nothing but fantastic. Short waiting times, excellent staff, fabulous aftercare, the list goes on and on!!

 

I cannot stand people who run down the NHS and the life-saving a noble work it does!!

 

My experience of the NHS is that they are a bunch of incompetants that pass you around because nobody actually wants to say yes to the certain diagnosis scans that i actually needed.

 

I have also been in the position i am in now twice in the past 8 years, same injury and both times they took over a year to actually diagnose me, even though i looked up the symptoms and said what i thought it was, which was correct.

 

In some cases the NHS are very good, i will give you that, but in others they really are not.

 

How you can say that the NHS have been a success under Labour is beyond me, what about all the MRSA cases and the dirty wards scandals ??

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Britain does healthcare on the cheap. We spend a smaller percentage of GDP on healthcare compared to other similar economies. We can either pay up and do it properly or have a patched together service which is sometimes excellent and sometimes carp.

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i agree they live in a fantasy world but alot of people are attracted to their view of europe the reality is we are never going to leave eu and if we had a vote,most people would be scared to be outside one of the biggest trading blocks when they are faced with the reality of what that entails. .

 

Its already been said, if we left the EU, of course they would not stop their trade with us. Do you seriously believe for one minute that the Germans, French and Italians would refuse to sell us their VWs, Audis, Mercs, BMWs, Fiats, Renaults, etc? We are major customers with them and therefore could expect that the traffic was two way, that they take an equivalent volume of our exports to them. But we would also be freer to increase our trade with the USA and the Commonwealth and others.

 

As for the other side of the coin with a vote as to whether we would leave the EU or not, the attraction for many would be the return of our sovereignty, being governed by the laws set by our Parliament instead of theirs and the saving of the massive sums that are wasted on their bureaucratic gravy train.

 

I'm all for taking it a step further, as I'm totally fed up with the Scots and Welsh having their own Parliaments/Assemblies, when they also have MPs from their constituences in our Parliament voting on English matters. I'd have a referendum on whether it was time to have an English Parliament.

 

In the European elections, I vote UKIP as a protest against the main national parties refusing us a referendum on the various treaties that have increasingly dragged us further into Europe and reduced our sovereignty. But in the General Election, the vote is too important to waste on them and risk weakening the anti-Labour vote.

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Its already been said, if we left the EU, of course they would not stop their trade with us. Do you seriously believe for one minute that the Germans, French and Italians would refuse to sell us their VWs, Audis, Mercs, BMWs, Fiats, Renaults, etc? We are major customers with them and therefore could expect that the traffic was two way, that they take an equivalent volume of our exports to them. But we would also be freer to increase our trade with the USA and the Commonwealth and others.

 

As for the other side of the coin with a vote as to whether we would leave the EU or not, the attraction for many would be the return of our sovereignty, being governed by the laws set by our Parliament instead of theirs and the saving of the massive sums that are wasted on their bureaucratic gravy train.

 

I'm all for taking it a step further, as I'm totally fed up with the Scots and Welsh having their own Parliaments/Assemblies, when they also have MPs from their constituences in our Parliament voting on English matters. I'd have a referendum on whether it was time to have an English Parliament.

 

In the European elections, I vote UKIP as a protest against the main national parties refusing us a referendum on the various treaties that have increasingly dragged us further into Europe and reduced our sovereignty. But in the General Election, the vote is too important to waste on them and risk weakening the anti-Labour vote.

 

it will never happen no major party's going to wreck the country's wealth by leaving the eu.

mind you i think they should have a referendum "in or out of the eu" and that will concentrate minds of the reality of leaving and what the stock markets reaction to it will be.

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it will never happen no major party's going to wreck the country's wealth by leaving the eu.

mind you i think they should have a referendum "in or out of the eu" and that will concentrate minds of the reality of leaving and what the stock markets reaction to it will be.

 

If you're going to make broad sweeping statements like this, presumably without qualifications in Economics, perhaps you ought to explain in detail the basis of your thinking. I look forward to you giving me chapter and verse on it and why we would not somehow be able to continue trading with the EU on an equal basis and also be free to develop other trading partners around the World.

 

And of course, there would be some benefits to gain from leaving, like not having to pay vast sums to the EU for the overwheening and inneficient bureacracy and the subsidies that much of our contribution goes to fund in other countries, subsidies which often give them a competitive advantage over our home grown industries.

 

Also, we could restore sovereignty to our own Parliament so that our own laws passed by our own elected MPs take precedent over those imposed on us by Europe.

 

As you see, trade is only one aspect of the whole thing and most will remain to be convinced that we could not explore other avenues or continue trade with Europe, but on our own terms.

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