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As Eddie Jordan quite correctly said, it is wrong for two reasons:

a) Ferrari broke a rule.

b) It deprived us of the spectacle of Alonso trying to overtake Felipe Massa.

 

Both cars should be excluded.

 

Trouble is like with all these cases since the Hakkinen-Coulthard incident in Melbourne, they won't be able to prove it and nothing will happen.

 

It's gone on for decades, regardless of what the rules have been. If any case of team orders were always punished Schumacher wouldn't have won that many titles

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Trouble is like with all these cases since the Hakkinen-Coulthard incident in Melbourne, they won't be able to prove it and nothing will happen.

 

It's gone on for decades, regardless of what the rules have been. If any case of team orders were always punished Schumacher wouldn't have won that many titles

 

Team orders where allowed back then though and now they are not.

 

I agree that it would be difficult to 100% prove, even though it is obvious that a team order has occured.

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Team orders where allowed back then though and now they are not.

 

I agree that it would be difficult to 100% prove, even though it is obvious that a team order has occured.

 

Never stopped it happening though. It's still routinely done, it's just the teams use code knowing that no one will ever be able to prove that they've done it.

 

Since team orders were banned, the only time a team would have ever been penalised for it was when Max Mosley was in charge and anyone did it that resulted in them beating a Ferrari to the finish line.

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Quelle surprise. Ferrari sticking two fingers up at the rules of the sport and expecting to be let off due to their 'special' relationship with the FIA.

 

Personally I hope that both drivers get excluded (although I do feel some sympathy for Felipe) and a points deduction. That should hopefully wipe that f***ing grin off Alonso's face the whinging smug little ***t! I was pleased when he won his two titles, if only because somebody beat Schumacher, but his actions since then have shown him up to be a spoiled little crybaby. Watching him in the post-race press conference today showing zero humility toward the fact that he had his win handed to him by the team instead of having to fight for it, just further reinforced my dislike of him. It was cringeworthy.

Edited by Sheaf Saint
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i don't often watch F1 as it got quite boring in the past, but i was enjoying this race until that happened. i switched off at that point, and turned over to watch a proper sport.

 

these things should be decided by the ability of the competitors, that's what sport is meant to be all about, not the politics or legalities of contracts. thats F1's ability to shoot itself in the foot, and losing another viewer who will stick to watching sports where the competition and the spirit of the game is bit more important in the future

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Discraceful really it's one thing telling two team mates who are following each other not to challenge each other in the closing stages. It's quite another to tell one driver to move over and let someone through. If one driver has been superior up until 10 laps to go, I think it's fair enough to say, 'job done lads, both of you ease off and lets make sure we bring home the points.' Ferrari are just saying, ' Fernando wins the race' and expecting the fans to be content with that.

 

Don't forget people bet on F1 races the same as any other sport. People will have won and lost hundreds of millions accross the world betting on todays race. If it happened at a horse race, those concerned would have been banned for life.

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Quelle surprise. Ferrari sticking two fingers up at the rules of the sport and expecting to be let off due to their 'special' relationship with the FIA.

 

Personally I hope that both drivers get excluded (although I do feel some sympathy for Felipe) and a points deduction. That should hopefully wipe that f***ing grin off Alonso's face the whinging smug little ***t! I was pleased when he won his two titles, if only because somebody beat Schumacher, but his actions since then have shown him up to be a spoiled little crybaby. Watching him in the post-race press conference today showing zero humility toward the fact that he had his win handed to him by the team instead of having to fight for it, just further reinforced my dislike of him. It was cringeworthy.

 

Er this is 2010 not 2004.

 

FIA stopped being 'Ferrari's International Assistance' when Mosley left, the FIA and Ferrari have been at each other's throats pretty much since then, hence why Ferrari have been on the receiving end of the steward's decisions this season. Ferrari have been penalised for some, they've got away with less this season.

 

Team orders have always happened, regardless of whether the FIA have banned them or not. If both Ferrari's had been excluded today then it would have meant several cars would have to be excluded every GP.

 

Besides maybe he had the win handed to him because he's outperformed Massa all season, and was in a far better position to win the Championship before this race never mind after? Something I've seen hundreds of times happen over the many years I've followed F1?

Edited by JackFrost
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8852918.stm

 

How good would it have been to have a good old fight to the finish eh? And it was exactly a year ago Massa had that awful accident. How nice to have been able to celebrate his recovery with a win.

 

Ferrari - the PFC of F1 :(

 

Result stands for now. It's up before the WMSC soon. Bit of fuss over nothing with regards to the sport; it's the fans I feel sorry for.

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I'm rather baffled at how many people are surprised by today's developments. Clearly they did not watch F1 when Schumacher was dominating.

 

Who's surprised?

 

Doesn't make it any more acceptable or less irritating for fans like myself. I'm planning on going to the Belgian GP in Spa a month from now. I hope to God Ferrari aren't dominant come then. I don't want be sat on a cross channel ferry thinking to myself, "I can't wait to find out who comes third on Sunday". That's what this is about. Blatant race fixing.

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Who's surprised?

 

Doesn't make it any more acceptable or less irritating for fans like myself. I'm planning on going to the Belgian GP in Spa a month from now. I hope to God Ferrari aren't dominant come then. I don't want be sat on a cross channel ferry thinking to myself, "I can't wait to find out who comes third on Sunday". That's what this is about. Blatant race fixing.

 

I really couldn't disagree more. I really don't see why a team shouldn't be able to use their two cars however they see fit to secure the best result for their team.

 

Obviously in this instance it is against the rules, but the no team orders rule is stupid.

 

A question for you, if in the last race of the season Hamilton is running 1st, with Jenson Button running 2nd. Hamilton is out of the championship, but Jenson will win it ONLY if he wins the race. What would you say if Hamilton let Button through? Would that be unnaceptable?

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I really couldn't disagree more. I really don't see why a team shouldn't be able to use their two cars however they see fit to secure the best result for their team.

 

Obviously in this instance it is against the rules, but the no team orders rule is stupid.

 

A question for you, if in the last race of the season Hamilton is running 1st, with Jenson Button running 2nd. Hamilton is out of the championship, but Jenson will win it ONLY if he wins the race. What would you say if Hamilton let Button through? Would that be unnaceptable?

 

That's a completely different situation. If there's a world championship resting on the result of that one race, and the other driver has nothing to fight for, it make sense. Everyone going to that race would know Mclaren is going to put it's eggs in Jenson's basket. All the Lewis fans would be expecting him to have to play the team game. No mug in their right mind would have put money on Lewis winning the race. It has arisen before in 2007, whereby Ferrari gave Raikkonen a favourable pitstop strategy to get him ahead of Massa.

 

Fans and gamblers alike were robbed today. It was a complete fix. Can you imagine if Saints got paid £5m for every game they lost. Would you go to Saints games next season knowing they were just going to throw the match if they were winning?

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That's a completely different situation. If there's a world championship resting on the result of that one race, and the other driver has nothing to fight for, it make sense. Everyone going to that race would know Mclaren is going to put it's eggs in Jenson's basket. All the Lewis fans would be expecting him to have to play the team game. No mug in their right mind would have put money on Lewis winning the race. It has arisen before in 2007, whereby Ferrari gave Raikkonen a favourable pitstop strategy to get him ahead of Massa.

 

Fans and gamblers alike were robbed today. It was a complete fix. Can you imagine if Saints got paid £5m for every game they lost. Would you go to Saints games next season knowing they were just going to throw the match if they were winning?

 

So what you are saying are that team orders are ok in theory, but only in certain situations.

 

So where exactly do you draw the line?

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That's a completely different situation. If there's a world championship resting on the result of that one race, and the other driver has nothing to fight for, it make sense. Everyone going to that race would know Mclaren is going to put it's eggs in Jenson's basket. All the Lewis fans would be expecting him to have to play the team game. No mug in their right mind would have put money on Lewis winning the race. It has arisen before in 2007, whereby Ferrari gave Raikkonen a favourable pitstop strategy to get him ahead of Massa.

 

Fans and gamblers alike were robbed today. It was a complete fix. Can you imagine if Saints got paid £5m for every game they lost. Would you go to Saints games next season knowing they were just going to throw the match if they were winning?

 

Then you haven't watched F1 for very long. Or if you have I certainly won't be getting any betting tips off you LOL

 

Betting on a driver who is significantly behind his team mate in the championship to win a race with his teammate behind him is a very unwise bet.

 

This has gone on for years and has happened many many times, not just with the front runners but all the way down the grid, regardless of whether it has been outlawed

 

Why is this one incident so significant?

 

Now the reason why the Schumi, Barrichello incident in Austria was different was because Schumi was miles ahead in the Championship, Barrichello was easily the quickest and in front all weekend including the race, and through what happened at the last corner they turned the entire weekend into a farce.

 

In this situation Alonso was faster and in a far better position to have a chance of launching a challenge for the championship and Vettel was closing in. Alonso was being held up and his race was being compromised by his teammate. This situation has occurred many times over the years and the teams have swapped the drivers positions in a subtle way, many times over the years. The mistake Ferrari made was that Massa wasn't that discreet about it.

 

As Brundle pointed out, any other team would have done the same.

 

And they have, many times. Ferrari did this or would do this for Schumi everytime they could. And Ferrari are a very long way from being the only team that have done it.

Edited by JackFrost
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The difference for me is that in you're hypothetical situation, nobody is left feeling robbed. If today's race had been the last race of the season with Massa completely out of the championship, then I'd have said fair enough, that's common sense. I wouldn't have expected anything else. Today was just such a let down in terms of the spectacle. Maybe if you don't feel passionately (not you personally) about F1 you aren't as bothered. But for mugs like me who sometimes spend hundreds of pounds going to a Grand Prix weekend, it just ruins it.

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The difference for me is that in you're hypothetical situation, nobody is left feeling robbed. If today's race had been the last race of the season with Massa completely out of the championship, then I'd have said fair enough, that's common sense. I wouldn't have expected anything else. Today was just such a let down in terms of the spectacle. Maybe if you don't feel passionately (not you personally) about F1 you aren't as bothered. But for mugs like me who sometimes spend hundreds of pounds going to a Grand Prix weekend, it just ruins it.

 

Which is what practically every fan who didn't support Michael Schumacher in his title winning years felt. He had an entire team built around him, his car was a second a lap faster than anyone else and half a second faster than his teammate. In the occasions he wasn't miles away in front Ferrari and the FIA did everything they could to make sure that was the case.

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Today was just such a let down in terms of the spectacle. Maybe if you don't feel passionately (not you personally) about F1 you aren't as bothered. But for mugs like me who sometimes spend hundreds of pounds going to a Grand Prix weekend, it just ruins it.

 

I don't think it's anything to do with being passionate or how much you spend on going to races. I love this sport, but I really don't see the problem.

 

I don't think we will ever agree on this though. I can honestly say that if next season Red Bull signed up somebody to be a clear number 2 driver to Vettel, and and the very first race they asked him to move over for Vettel, I would not have a problem with it. It's their team and it's up to them.

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Discraceful really it's one thing telling two team mates who are following each other not to challenge each other in the closing stages. It's quite another to tell one driver to move over and let someone through. If one driver has been superior up until 10 laps to go, I think it's fair enough to say, 'job done lads, both of you ease off and lets make sure we bring home the points.' Ferrari are just saying, ' Fernando wins the race' and expecting the fans to be content with that.

 

Don't forget people bet on F1 races the same as any other sport. People will have won and lost hundreds of millions accross the world betting on todays race. If it happened at a horse race, those concerned would have been banned for life.

 

I'd love to see someone take them to court on the basis of losing out on a bet. I'd be fuming if I had a nice little earner spirited away from me by blatant cheating.

 

How about the bookies themselves ... i wonder if they've had to pay out more with Alonso winning?

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It's interesting to read people's opinions on this. But the bottom line is, whether you agree with it or not, the no-team-orders rule exists. Therefore Ferrari are guilty of breaking the rules of the sport and should be punished. End of story.

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Yesterday's events have shown that F1 is not a true sport, its more like wrestling - its all fixed. Now we all know team orders have existed in every race but as usual Ferrari manage to flaunt them in the most brazen way possible. Shame on the stewards & FIA for not enforcing the rules - what is a £65k fine to Ferrari? Both cars should have been disqualified.

 

Having said that, its not to say that the rules are correct but whilst there are there, they have to be enforced. So what can be done? Couple of options-

 

1) Just scrap the no team orders rule & accept that team orders will happen. If you are happy with what went on in Austria in 2002 when Schumi was allowed through by Barrichello then thats the easy answer. For me, I can't really accept that.

 

2) The other solution is in two parts

  • Introduce a rule similar to the non-tryers rule in horse racing. For example say that any car that is in front of his teammates car and is more than 1 second slower on any lap must give a satisfactory explanation to the stewards. All telemetry should be made available to the stewards as well. In the event of a failure to give a satisfactory explanation, both cars will be disqualified and the drivers suspended for 2 races.
  • All driver contracts should be lodged with the FIA to ensure that no number 1/2 driver clauses are inserted.

I think that might work but open to discussion.

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Quite simply a 60K fine is stupid. The FIA should have some balls and give Alonso a 1 place deduction, so the 2 Ferraris finish the other way round. Plus wipe of the TEAM points off the board for Ferrari for the race. This punishes the team TOTALLY whilst not being too harsh on the drivers. Amazingly, I dont blame Alonso at all. Despite not liking him really, he wasnt to blame. Neither was Massa really, despite showing that he has no backbone at all. They both were under pressure from Ferrari to make the swap.

 

Er this is 2010 not 2004.

 

FIA stopped being 'Ferrari's International Assistance' when Mosley left...

 

Remind me, who is the head of the FIA now then? Jean Todt I think. Of course, he has no Ferrari connections at all.

 

[*]Introduce a rule similar to the non-tryers rule in horse racing. For example say that any car that is in front of his teammates car and is more than 1 second slower on any lap must give a satisfactory explanation to the stewards. All telemetry should be made available to the stewards as well. In the event of a failure to give a satisfactory explanation, both cars will be disqualified and the drivers suspended for 2 races.

 

Back markers, fuel mix selected, tyre wear, brake wear, yellow flag, blue flag, debris, cornering error... a 1 seconds difference between 2 Team cars is easy to "hide" if needs be and makes it totally un-workable.

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If they are going to give 'coded' team orders, could they not at least have been a little more subtle about it?

 

Indeed. At least McLaren and RBR had the brains to tell Hamilton and Webber to switch to a different fuel mix when Button and Vettel needed to get by this season....

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Quite simply a 60K fine is stupid. The FIA should have some balls and give Alonso a 1 place deduction, so the 2 Ferraris finish the other way round. Plus wipe of the TEAM points off the board for Ferrari for the race. This punishes the team TOTALLY whilst not being too harsh on the drivers. Amazingly, I dont blame Alonso at all. Despite not liking him really, he wasnt to blame. Neither was Massa really, despite showing that he has no backbone at all. They both were under pressure from Ferrari to make the swap..

 

Interesting that you say you dont blame Alonso at all, seeing as it was his complaint over the team radio on lap 21 when Massa wasnt meekly letting Alonso past then which probably caused the team order.

 

And what about all his whinging and spite at Hamilton a couple of years ago ?

 

Alonso is a spolit brat.

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Interesting that you say you dont blame Alonso at all, seeing as it was his complaint over the team radio on lap 21 when Massa wasnt meekly letting Alonso past then which probably caused the team order.

 

And what about all his whinging and spite at Hamilton a couple of years ago ?

 

Alonso is a spolit brat.

 

He is does act like a brat, the enfant terrible of F1 at the moment, but I would guess most drivers would be on the the radio to the team "moaning" about a team mate holding them up if they were faster than them. F1 driver, by nature of the beast have to have pretty massive egos to allow them to believe in what they do. Can you say tha Hamilton wouldn't be on the radio to McLaren if Button was ahead on track and holding him up? Would Vettel not be "moaning" to RBR is Webber was in his way? of course they would. And of course the team would probably do something about it; be that switching the slower driver to a fuel saving mix, or telling them to converse tyres whatever. It happens in every race. It shouldnt, but it does. Now the FIA have a high profile case it obviously took place (based on the radio calls, even a toddler could work out what Smedley was getting at), they needed to come down harder that a pathetic 60K fine.

 

2 more points whislt Im here that I want to get my off my chest:

 

1. How come no is talking about Webber getting back 2 places he lost at the start by going off track on the first corner? At the approach, both Button and Hamilton had track position over him, but then he went wide and re-joined in front of them. WTF?

 

2. I was looking forward to no fuel stops this season, but Im now getting bored of the need to conserve mid way through the race. The FIA or someone needs to change something in the rules to make sure EVERY car starts with enough fuel for 110% of the race, and they should only be allowed to change fuel mix during pre-race laps, SC laps, in-laps, out-laps and after the race.

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Interesting that you say you dont blame Alonso at all, seeing as it was his complaint over the team radio on lap 21 when Massa wasnt meekly letting Alonso past then which probably caused the team order.

 

And what about all his whinging and spite at Hamilton a couple of years ago ?

 

Alonso is a spolit brat.

 

What's even more interesting is that when Alonso was asked in the press conference after the race if he made a request to the team to get Massa to let him by, he blatantly avoided the question. What an absolute c**t he is!

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Alonso WAS significantly faster than Massa at the point he made the "This is ridiculous..." call to the pits, and it was. Massa was weaving, locking up and generally being unpredictable. Alonso had the pace but in order to avoid a Vettel/Webber Turkey incident there was no way he could risk a dive up the inside. What was weird is that the call to swap positions came at a point when the cars weren't lapping at wildly different pace. In fact, Massa had been on his best spell of the race. Still, it is a team sport, and if the team feel that one driver has a significantly better chance of winning the championship than the other then I don't see the problem with team orders in that respect. Vettel having Webber's wing at Silverstone being a recent example. What does annoy me is that it was so blatant and clearly robbed fans and punters of a true result. It would've been a lot easier, and far less suspicious, for Massa to have had a 'sticky' pit stop or a 'problem' that required a lean engine mixture, but no, it was so in your face. In some respects I blame Smedley for that, but the call should never have been in his hands anyway.

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In some respects I blame Smedley for that, but the call should never have been in his hands anyway.

 

If I was a senior person within the Ferrari team I would be very unhappy with Smedley and certainly asking him to re-evaluate where his loyalties lie and remember who pays his wages.

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If I was a senior person within the Ferrari team I would be very unhappy with Smedley and certainly asking him to re-evaluate where his loyalties lie and remember who pays his wages.

If your boss tells you to say something that is blatantly against the rules, knowing it will be monitored by global broadcasting organisations, how would you react ?

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If your boss tells you to say something that is blatantly against the rules, knowing it will be monitored by global broadcasting organisations, how would you react ?

 

Let's be clear here. Smedley's dissatisfaction was clearly nothing to do with going "against the rules", and everything to do with his mate Felipe losing the victory. If he felt that strongly about not breaking the rules he wouldn't have covered up for the team after the race when he'd calmed down a bit.

 

But to answer your question...

I would either do it and do it properly, in such a way that would not get the team that pays my wages into masses of trouble. Or if I really felt that strongly about it I would say "I'm sorry I don't think I can do that convincingly". Or if I felt really really really strongly about it I would go to the stewards and report it.

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I'd love to see someone take them to court on the basis of losing out on a bet. I'd be fuming if I had a nice little earner spirited away from me by blatant cheating.

 

How about the bookies themselves ... i wonder if they've had to pay out more with Alonso winning?

 

Kieron Fallon anybody? It's not an identical situation as I doubt anyone at Ferrari was betting on an Alonso win, but it's still race fixing.

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Let's be clear here. Smedley's dissatisfaction was clearly nothing to do with going "against the rules", and everything to do with his mate Felipe losing the victory. If he felt that strongly about not breaking the rules he wouldn't have covered up for the team after the race when he'd calmed down a bit.

 

Most 'experts' on the TV and radio said that they would have expected the Team Principal to pass the message rather than the race engineer. Why did Domenicali not take responsibility ?

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Most 'experts' on the TV and radio said that they would have expected the Team Principal to pass the message rather than the race engineer. Why did Domenicali not take responsibility ?

 

Do agree with that, it should be the team boss dishing out orders like that in normal circumstances.

 

But remember, team orders are banned, this was not supposed to be a blatant team order. In this instance they were trying to be sly, and it would have been too obvious Domenicali coming on the radio and giving what was supposed to be routine information. In the interests of being subtle about it Smedley was the right choice, except he had other ideas.

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Just out of interest, what would peoples opinions on yesterday be if there wasn't a 'No team orders' rule?

 

Hypothetical I know, but I'm just intrigued as clearly I feel differently to the majority here.

People say it's against the spirit of the sport to have team orders but that's rubbish really. Up until 2002 team orders were allowed and in the early days (the great years, some might say) the number 1 driver could take the number 2 driver's car from him at any time during the race. It's really only a recent rule that's been enforced for less than 20% of the sport's true existence.

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Just out of interest, what would peoples opinions on yesterday be if there wasn't a 'No team orders' rule?

 

Hypothetical I know, but I'm just intrigued as clearly I feel differently to the majority here.

 

Then I wouldnt watch F1, as simple as that and think its a joke. Dont get me wrong, teams give orders all the time and racers swapping positions do happen however Ferrari could have been more subtle about it.

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Quite simply a 60K fine is stupid. The FIA should have some balls and give Alonso a 1 place deduction, so the 2 Ferraris finish the other way round. Plus wipe of the TEAM points off the board for Ferrari for the race. This punishes the team TOTALLY whilst not being too harsh on the drivers. Amazingly, I dont blame Alonso at all. Despite not liking him really, he wasnt to blame. Neither was Massa really, despite showing that he has no backbone at all. They both were under pressure from Ferrari to make the swap.

 

 

 

Remind me, who is the head of the FIA now then? Jean Todt I think. Of course, he has no Ferrari connections at all.

 

 

 

Back markers, fuel mix selected, tyre wear, brake wear, yellow flag, blue flag, debris, cornering error... a 1 seconds difference between 2 Team cars is easy to "hide" if needs be and makes it totally un-workable.

 

You clearly haven't seen many races this season, and some of the dubious penalties Ferrari have been on the receiving end of. You are very short sighted if you think Todt is a Ferrari puppet. The outcry from the other teams would be deafening if there was any hint of bias. Shortly after his appointment Todt removed himself from any sporting responsibilities that involved making calls regarding on track action

 

How many teams have condemned this incident at the race? Team orders like this occur all the time and you don't even notice it. You are basically calling for several cars every race to be penalised and for races to be decided in the courtroom and not on the race track.

 

Like I've said I see no problem with this at all. It has gone on for decades, and when it's been made illegal it's carried on exactly the same just under the guise of code. The only reason why people are complaining is because Massa wasn't exactly subtle about it. In that situation normally it would have happened under the guise of Massa outbreaking himself passing a backmarker and Alonso slipping through and the ITV commentators praising Alonso for his opportunism. Unfortunately Ferrari and Massa appeared to miss the moment and ****ed it up.

 

If this incident had involved Hamilton and Button, this thread wouldn't exist. I didn't hear much outcry when Kovalainen gave Hamilton no end of help in the last couple of years

Edited by JackFrost
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Ferrari are a bunch of cheatin' b'stards full stop. They claim to be the life blood of F1 and historicaly they were. No more though. It would be better without them.

 

You reckon?

 

The ramifications would be massive and very damaging. The tv audiences would be cut in half overnight for a start.

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Interesting that you say you dont blame Alonso at all, seeing as it was his complaint over the team radio on lap 21 when Massa wasnt meekly letting Alonso past then which probably caused the team order.

 

And what about all his whinging and spite at Hamilton a couple of years ago ?

 

Alonso is a spolit brat.

 

So would you be if your employer treated you like McLaren treated Alonso.

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Then I wouldnt watch F1, as simple as that and think its a joke. Dont get me wrong, teams give orders all the time and racers swapping positions do happen however Ferrari could have been more subtle about it.

 

Which I suspect is a lot of peoples view, happy to turn a blind eye to a neccesary evil so long as it isn't shoved in their faces.

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If one of people's major concerns is the betting impact, then would it make sense to ban betting on the driver and have bets on the team instead?

 

If you had a first goalscorer bet on Rickie Lambert and we got a penalty, would you feel cheated if someone else took it and scored?

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