Repsonsibility

[sadoldgit]

At which point did the responsibility for poor results move from the players to the manager? When I started chatting about football online most of the trafic was about the players and their performances. Gradually now all fingers seem to point at the manager when results are poor.

 

I accept that the manager buys the players, decides tactics etc, but at the point when the team crosses the white line it is down to them. We were relegated from the Premiership with many players who still play in the Premiership. We had a strong squad last season and this yet most of the flak heads the way of the manager.

 

Perhaps it is time to move the forensic dissecting back to the people who carry the expectation of the fans on their shoulders: the players?

 

Chances have been made and missed. Pardew's fault or the players? Soft goals conceded, same question.

[Thedelldays]

then why do managers get the sack...?

 

why do ferguson and mourinho do well and burley and wotte to poorly..?

[Saint Charlie]

then why do managers get the sack...?

 

why do ferguson and mourinho do well and burley and wotte to poorly..?

 

Better, more expensive players?

[ottery st mary]

I will have to give this particular one a lot more thought and get back to you...

 

Back to my telescope tonight..

 

In the meantime we beat Brizzle 3-1 or even 4-1.....

 

For this I thank King Nic, Boss Pards and staff.. AND of course the players in the squad and on the park..

 

The supporters..Especially those at the game..

 

AND particularly the officials at the game for making the right decisions at the right time for the right team..

 

 

AND Russell Grant for puting all my stars in the right place when I gaze through my telescope at night times.

 

WIFM

Edited 28 August, 2010 by ottery st mary
forgot our great players who will many games

[Thedelldays]

Better, more expensive players?

 

look at scolari and ancelotti..?

same players..

[docker-p]

There is a perception that a player who performs below par could or should have been better prepared, coached, instructed, motivated by the manager. The fact that the player shoulders little or no responsibility these days could stem from their contract value in pounds, shillings and pence to the Club.

[Thedelldays]

There is a perception that a player who performs below par could or should have been better prepared, coached, instructed, motivated by the manager. The fact that the player shoulders little or no responsibility these days could stem from their contract value in pounds, shillings and pence to the Club.

 

of course a player takes flak...look at what people think of wotton, pulis, or lately, puncheon....

but more so, the manager takes the blame..

[aintforever]

Manager should always take responsibility as they are his players.

[Weston Saint]

When a player is not doing what he is expected to do tactically the Manager should be responsible for letting him know during the game or taking him off. Often Pardew just stands on the touchline with arms crossed or down by his side and does/says nothing so you have to assume the players are doing what Pardew wants.

 

Blame individual players by all means, many deserve it but when it is a collective poor show - no width, hoofing down the middle etc you have to look to the Manager.

 

We have shown some good play at times but when we really need width during the game it is not there. When we need our central midfield to be more positive it is not there.

 

You have to watch the Managers actions during the game to get a full picture.

 

Pardew too often plays it safe. That can bite you in the bum.

 

Just my opinion of course.

[Turkish]

The manager cannot legislate for individual errors and sloppy mistakes, which both league goals we have conceded so far have been. Against both Plymouth and Oreint on another day we would have scored two or three in the first half. So from that point of view Pardew is not to blame for results so far, but what he does seem to lack is tha ability to change things when we cant break teams down, which is a worry as we will see many teams come here and play like Plymouth and Orient.

[sadoldgit]

then why do managers get the sack...?

 

why do ferguson and mourinho do well and burley and wotte to poorly..?

 

Because it is easier to sack a manager than a whole team perhaps? Ferguson was close to the sack before he turned things around. Burley did a great job at Ipswich and did well at Herts.

[sadoldgit]

of course a player takes flak...look at what people think of wotton, pulis, or lately, puncheon....

but more so, the manager takes the blame..

 

I am not saying that they don't get flak, but the discussion now immediately revolves around the manager whereas years back it was the players first and foremost.

[Thedelldays]

Because it is easier to sack a manager than a whole team perhaps? Ferguson was close to the sack before he turned things around. Burley did a great job at Ipswich and did well at Herts.

 

not too sure what you are saying...?

fergie was doing badly so was on the verge of the sack....turns it round and is not on the verge of being sacked..?

 

is that right..?

[Thedelldays]

I am not saying that they don't get flak, but the discussion now immediately revolves around the manager whereas years back it was the players first and foremost.

 

 

really...have a look on the main board..

 

pulis, puncheon and hammond also wotton have had for more stick in the last few weeks than pardew...

[waggy]

If you are going to compare AP with the like of Ferguson and Ancelloti the differences are that when players aren't performing they always have a plan B, C & D and implement them as soon it becomes obvious that players are struggling. AP envariably leaves it too late to make changes and, so it would appear to us laypeople, without much planning?

[NickG]

to be fair, some fans on here treat everyone at the club equally - they slag them all off!

[Saint Fan CaM]

Some of the issue is with the mentality of the observer. For example, pretty much the same players lined up against Prem Bolton when their players were arguably of a much higher calibre. Although we lost 0-1, our players played above their station - why? Because they have an exceptional Manager that they wish to play for and who gives them the tactical knowledge to combat their opposition.

 

I have been pondering this issue a little further and while I admit I am not entirely convinced by my own argument yet, I have a theory. There are essentially two types of team that are successful in this league and the nPC in particular. Team A will be made up of a number of players that are much better than the league they are playing in - perhaps some these might be 'mercenaries' - but the general strategy is to plan for the next league up. Team B is made up of players that have got less ability but make up for it by bonding well as a team, having a real fire in their belly and are thick enough to believe their charismatic Manager when he says they are the dog's doodahs. I will leave you to guess which team we are and why sometimes we lose to the other type of team.

 

Edit: Team B also have a following that KNOW they'll not be the next ManU or Chelski, so they're expectations are less and they don't boo their players even when they're losing. Team A's supporters on the other hand EXPECT almost instant success regardless. I repeat, guess which team we are!

Edited 28 August, 2010 by Saint Fan CaM
Extra thought...

[saint_bert]

My biggest concern with AP is, like Weston said, the percieved caution that he applies alot of the time.

 

Its if to say not losing is more important than winning.

 

I may be wrong, its just my opinion and how I see it

[dubai_phil]

Interesting how cricketers don't get discarded when they drop a slip catch, Strauss dropped one in the Oval Test and the last pair added an extra match winning 38 runs causing us to lose. Straus should have been sacked.

 

In the Plymouth game, whilst we were on top, Hammond missed TWO headers where the commentary team felt it would have been easier to score. We had one thread about the meits of Hammond to the team, and yet IF either had gone in we would in all likelihood have been popping Champagne corks celebrating our first opening day win in 19 years. So instead we get 858 threads about AP being no good.

 

58 chances created not enough goals scored. That has sod all to do with the manager but everything to do with the coaching staff and their technical support team not setting up training in the areas we need.

 

(And before everyone moans, who appointed most of the backroom staff?)

 

It is a worryingt time but it is not time to call Samaritans (anyway you won't get through, all the lines are full of calls from down the M27)

[ottery st mary]

Some of the issue is with the mentality of the observer. For example, pretty much the same players lined up against Prem Bolton when their players were arguably of a much higher calibre. Although we lost 0-1, our players played above their station - why? Because they have an exceptional Manager that they wish to play for and who gives them the tactical knowledge to combat their opposition.

 

I have been pondering this issue a little further and while I admit I am not entirely convinced by my own argument yet, I have a theory. There are essentially two types of team that are successful in this league and the nPC in particular. Team A will be made up of a number of players that are much better than the league they are playing in - perhaps some these might be 'mercenaries' - but the general strategy is to plan for the next league up. Team B is made up of players that have got less ability but make up for it by bonding well as a team, having a real fire in their belly and are thick enough to believe their charismatic Manager when he says they are the dog's doodahs. I will leave you to guess which team we are and why sometimes we lose to the other type of team.

 

Edit: Team B also have a following that KNOW they'll not be the next ManU or Chelski, so they're expectations are less and they don't boo their players even when they're losing. Team A's supporters on the other hand EXPECT almost instant success regardless. I repeat, guess which team we are!

 

Definitely team A but sometimes playing like Team C who have yet to turn up..

 

You are definitely right though..

 

WIFM

[crouchi]

The manager is responsible for the results, the players the performance. Neither are quite up to scratch just yet. Both need to get going this afternoon.

[ottery st mary]

Interesting how cricketers don't get discarded when they drop a slip catch, Strauss dropped one in the Oval Test and the last pair added an extra match winning 38 runs causing us to lose. Straus should have been sacked.

 

In the Plymouth game, whilst we were on top, Hammond missed TWO headers where the commentary team felt it would have been easier to score. We had one thread about the meits of Hammond to the team, and yet IF either had gone in we would in all likelihood have been popping Champagne corks celebrating our first opening day win in 19 years. So instead we get 858 threads about AP being no good.

 

58 chances created not enough goals scored. That has sod all to do with the manager but everything to do with the coaching staff and their technical support team not setting up training in the areas we need.

 

(And before everyone moans, who appointed most of the backroom staff?)

 

It is a worryingt time but it is not time to call Samaritans (anyway you won't get through, all the lines are full of calls from down the M27)

 

Every time i GET THROUGH TO MY PERSONAL SAMARITAN OPERATOR SHE PUTS ME ON HOLD UNTIL SHE HAS FINISHED TALKING TO ALPS.

 

excuse the capital letters........Er indoors states my fingers are never in the right place at the right time..hence the capital ERROR.

 

WIFM

[1976_Child]

I think a lot of the responsibility should be on us fans. Maybe if we all sung more anti Pompey songs louder and more often the lads would play better.

[david in sweden]

this is a good thread ..sad old git. To be fair the manager has the ultimate responsibility but it depends on many factors;

- does he had "suitable" players for the league they play in?. Are they properly fit?

- are the players on form ..all the time? (recent comment from AP about senior players not pulling their weight).

- every team depends on the form of their star players (Lambert last season ..MLT for a lot of the time in the 1990's)

- manager's tactical ability ..not persisting with the same formation in every game, regardless of the opposition.

- does the manager have respect in the dressing room?

- do the owners have too high expectations from the team?

- not forgetting the impatience of " fan power" which has got quite a few managers sacked over the years.

- the woodwork...which has robbed many players of deserved goals.

- and of course ..good officials who know the game, don't miss penalties or balls that crossed the line.

 

aside from that... we deserve to get three points in every game.

[up and away]

The OP has some merit when you are looking at managers who inherit players from other regimes or are forced due to finances to take a chance or the best of a bad job.

 

Your pants are completely around your ankles when you have had over a season to gel your team and more money than all the other teams put together. So if the players are not performing, it's because the manager is not motivating them or not using their skills tactically to their best, or they should not have been bought in the first place. Either way it all comes back to the manager. It could be that he is just unlucky, then who wants an unlucky manager?

 

There's been some dumb defences put up for poor performances, but this one takes the tin.

[derry]

I think Pardew is now taking flak because of the way our pre season preparations, which looked weak and haphazard, leading to the first time the first team squad, actually played together in a full match v Plymouth and leading to a poor start. We have now had four competitive matches and are now beginning to get it right. August 7th was the target date to get it right after six weeks pre season preparation not August 28th. Played a whole host of youth players in our preparation matches who we will never see in the first team this year if ever, leading to each match comprising 45 minutes for a mix up team right through the pre season. Thats why he is getting flak from me, especially as every year we have the same type of low key preparation followed by the same dire start. I thought Pardew would have the wit to change that, but he carried on the usual preparation accompanied by the usual 'the matches don't count' bull.

Edited 28 August, 2010 by derry

[ottery st mary]

I think Pardew is now taking flak because of the way our pre season preparations, which looked weak and haphazard, leading to the first time the first team squad, actually played together in a full match v Plymouth and leading to a poor start. We have now had four competitive matches and are now beginning to get it right. August 7th was the target date to get it right after six weeks pre season preparation not August 28th. Played a whole host of youth players in our preparation matches who we will never see in the first team this year if ever, leading to each match comprising 45 minutes for a mix up team right through the pre season. Thats why he is getting flak from me, especially as every year we have the same type of low key preparation followed by the same dire start. I thought Pardew would have the wit to change that, but he carried on the usual preparation accompanied by the usual 'the matches don't count' bull.

 

 

i am sure Pards is very interested in what you, up and away and others like you have to say.......I take it you do not like our great Manager..

 

Sorry fella..you have proved time and again you have no idea about football and have a personal axe to grind regarding Saints and our two great leaders Boss Pards and King Nic.

 

derry.... give it a rest with your continual personal attacks.

 

Or you could tell us all why you have a thing against Pards. Be honest matey.

 

Nothing personal......

 

WIFM

[SaintBobby]

I would say the manager's job is to get the best out of his playing squad. If the players look unmotivated or unfit, I would blame the management.

[70's Mike]

Collective Responsibilty

[JackFrost]

look at scolari and ancelotti..?

same players..

 

quite,

 

but the key difference is Scolari lost the dressing room and it became a battle of egos, whereas Ancelotti has turned them into a formidable force and got them to do their talking on the pitch where it matters. That doesn't make Scolari a bad coach, he has had huge success in Latin America, winning the world cup and the Copa Libertadores on more than one occasion I believe.

 

The manager is always the one responsible for how the players perform, like any manager is ultimately responsible for their employees in any job. If the players are performing badly it is both the manager's and player's responsibility to sort it out, but the manager has to be effective in their communication for the player/employee to know that.

[derry]

i am sure Pards is very interested in what you, up and away and others like you have to say.......I take it you do not like our great Manager..

 

Sorry fella..you have proved time and again you have no idea about football and have a personal axe to grind regarding Saints and our two great leaders Boss Pards and King Nic.

 

derry.... give it a rest with your continual personal attacks.

 

Or you could tell us all why you have a thing against Pards. Be honest matey.

 

Nothing personal......

 

WIFM

 

I knew his history at West Ham and Charlton, especially Charlton and as yet I've not seen anything I didn't expect. In a nutshell I don't rate him. I'm always willing to be proved wrong but despite today's result I think he is on borrowed time as the home form is vital for him to keep his job and he isn't sorting that end of things at the moment.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Definitely team A but sometimes playing like Team C who have yet to turn up..

 

You are definitely right though..

 

WIFM

 

 

Regardless of whether you agree with my idea or not, thanks for taking the time to comment on my post. It seems to be the norm on the forum lately, if you post a non-inflammatory, non-personal opinion about football in general, it is almost completely ignored. Unless you're one of the 'in-crowd' of course.

[hypochondriac]

Regardless of whether you agree with my idea or not, thanks for taking the time to comment on my post. It seems to be the norm on the forum lately, if you post a non-inflammatory, non-personal opinion about football in general, it is almost completely ignored. Unless you're one of the 'in-crowd' of course.

 

Or maybe your comment is just not interesting enough to warrant a reply?

[Saint Fan CaM]

Or maybe your comment is just not interesting enough to warrant a reply?

 

Ah, you may be correct, but you just have and in typically fashion I might add. If you or anyone else thinks my proposition makes no sense then say so and back the assertion up with a reason. I would welcome the exchange providing the thread is not hijacked by the usual bickering and name calling. And I honestly believe that my comments are of some value to the OP otherwise as a non-prolific poster, I would not have bothered in the first place TBF.

[NickG]

R e s p o n s i b i l i t y

[sadoldgit]

Collective Responsibilty

 

I agree MIke, it should be shared around.