Mr X Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 If you look at any successful team that doesn't ship goals at a rate of knots like us they mostly all have four big bruising, experienced defenders. It's common sense really If we had that experience at the back it would sort out our imbalance of youth. Unfortunately we seem to not have a choice in the decision to play youngsters at the back, as we our regularly told, or do we? How would you get experience back into our defense, and would it be financially viable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Who else is there? Aside from signing up some loan defenders a la Dailly and Lucketti last season, we have to make do with the young defenders we have, with either ageing, injury prone Svensson, Thomas and Perry to help out, or midfielders like Surman, Skacel or Wotton. The key is getting the youngsters to concentrate for the 90 minutes, but of course there is no substitute for experience, which the youth will only get by playing. I doubt though that the situation will be addressed, and we'll be seeing a few more nailbiting results before the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 I know we conceeded 4 in our last match but generally we looked poor all over the park; I see it as more of a 'bad day at the office'. However, before the Cov game we had just come off the back of 2 clean sheets in the league and had been unbeaten in 4 games, and that's with the same young defence. I don't understand people being overly concerned in truth. Yes, our defence is very young, with the exception of Perry and Svensson, and yes some mistakes are bound to be made, but these youngsters are learning fast and if you ask me they're not doing as bad a job as some are making out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Swap Bart or Forecast for KD and see how many we ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNorthernSaints Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 I know we conceeded 4 in our last match but generally we looked poor all over the park; I see it as more of a 'bad day at the office'. However, before the Cov game we had just come off the back of 2 clean sheets in the league and had been unbeaten in 4 games, and that's with the same young defence. I don't understand people being overly concerned in truth. Yes, our defence is very young, with the exception of Perry and Svensson, and yes some mistakes are bound to be made, but these youngsters are learning fast and if you ask me they're not doing as bad a job as some are making out. I would question your eyesight if you think the fullbacks are doing "not a bad job." I'm all for giving youth a chance but you need the right blend of youth and experience in a team and not playing 8 or 9 youngsters in the same team in this league. Personally i think Mills has potential from games i've seen but he lacks the physcial presence or positional know how at the moment and is getting exposed. James has not looked up to the job IMO in any position and teams are obviously targeting our weak points in the fullback positions. I don't understand why the club need to buy or loan more midfielders and at the same time go into a season without any recognised/experienced fullbacks in the aquad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 I don't understand why the club need to buy or loan more midfielders and at the same time go into a season without any recognised/experienced fullbacks in the aquad. Perhaps there aren't any available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Who else is there? Aside from signing up some loan defenders a la Dailly and Lucketti last season, we have to make do with the young defenders we have, with either ageing, injury prone Svensson, Thomas and Perry to help out, or midfielders like Surman, Skacel or Wotton. The key is getting the youngsters to concentrate for the 90 minutes, but of course there is no substitute for experience, which the youth will only get by playing. I doubt though that the situation will be addressed, and we'll be seeing a few more nailbiting results before the end of the season. As i see it the problem is that clubs that introduce youngsters normally have 4/5 and they learn from expereienced players ( what ever the standard) We have opted to introduced 8/9 with only a couple of experienced players and they are not being taught during games, hence the same mistakes at Coventry as were made at QPR. They will not learn from their mistakes unless someone shows them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNorthernSaints Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 (edited) Perhaps there aren't any available? Jon Harley (Burnley) was out of contract in the summer before going to Watford. Matt Richards is on loan at brighton from Ipswich. Both experienced left backs in this division. Stephen Carr and Ian Harte are available as far as i know. I'm sure we could get someone else on loan like Cork who has played in this division? Edited 8 October, 2008 by AndyNorthernSaints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chivvy1664 Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Central Defenders should be big/tall/experienced but also able to get of the ground. Powell had the natural attributes but didnt get off the ground. youngsters can be introduced to a back line that is performing well as a unit, If you want to play the system we do the full backs have be able to get forward and provide creation and be technically better equipped. Ruling out converted/utily centre backs. such as Higginbottom. Personally I would have phsyical presence across the back four and let the wide men and a fancy dan midfielder (llalana) do the creation. Im not saying our 42121 formation is crap i just dont think we have the personell to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Against Coventry our defence were dreadful - bordering on the ridiculous on occasions. Surely they understand basic requirements such as cutting out crosses and challenging for headers? I was also concerned about how slow they looked on occasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Doesn't Richards count as a youngster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Plenty of arguments against the original post, not least that no new players would ever make it into any defence and clubs would be playing defenders into their late 60s. Anyway... Wayne Bridge, Dean Richards, Jason Dodd, Gareth Bale... all young players who came into the first team and held down a place. Darren Powell, Andreas Jackobsson, Tomasz Hajto, Darren Kenton... all complete carp. If you're good enough you're old enough. Only true words Harry Redknapp ever said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Plenty of arguments against the original post, not least that no new players would ever make it into any defence and clubs would be playing defenders into their late 60s. Anyway... Wayne Bridge, Dean Richards, Jason Dodd, Gareth Bale... all young players who came into the first team and held down a place. Darren Powell, Andreas Jackobsson, Tomasz Hajto, Darren Kenton... all complete carp. If you're good enough you're old enough. Only true words Harry Redknapp ever said. Dean Richards wasn't young at Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Wayne Bridge, Dean Richards, quote] Bridgey didnt hold down his place ...he was in and out for quite a while and Richards certainly wasn't young....i think he had had an England call up before his injury (Car crash??? ...could be wrong) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totton Red Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Plenty of arguments against the original post, not least that no new players would ever make it into any defence and clubs would be playing defenders into their late 60s. Anyway... Wayne Bridge, Dean Richards, Jason Dodd, Gareth Bale... all young players who came into the first team and held down a place. Darren Powell, Andreas Jackobsson, Tomasz Hajto, Darren Kenton... all complete carp. If you're good enough you're old enough. Only true words Harry Redknapp ever said. Did they not play with much more experienced players when entering the big league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 We have too many defenders that are lacking physically. You can get away with one weak defender who is maybe quick and used as an attacking outlet but to have 3 sometimes 4 very weak defenders is no go imo. A back four of Mills - Cork - Perry - James has very little pace, no height and no strength. They are all technically gifted players but with out a bit of muscle won't be able to get anywhere. I would personally like to see a back four of: Mills (only option at LB imo) - Svensson/Thomas - Lancashire - Cork Now it's a bit harsh on Perry who has easily been our best defender this season but I feel we need two big strong centre backs in the middle and I think Lancashire and one of Svensson/Thomas is the best way to achieve it. Then with Wotton and Schneiderlin just infront we would have a decent balance of muscle, height and pace which are the three key ingredients in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Jon Harley (Burnley) was out of contract in the summer before going to Watford. Matt Richards is on loan at brighton from Ipswich. Both experienced left backs in this division. Stephen Carr and Ian Harte are available as far as i know. I'm sure we could get someone else on loan like Cork who has played in this division? Just because they're available for free doesn't mean they are affordable. I bet plenty of Championship clubs have tried to sign Carr and he simply doesn't wan't to step down. Ian Harte is just **** imo, wasn't even that good as a youngster and he's gone down hill ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Dean Richards wasn't young at Saints. Richards certainly wasn't young....i think he had had an England call up before his injury (Car crash??? ...could be wrong) Sorry, you're right, he was 25 when we signed him, thought he was younger than that. Did they not play with much more experienced players when entering the big league? Yes, I do not argue that you need some experience in defence, however I think quality is far more important than age. I would quite happily have young players like Bale in the side and don't think we nescessarily need 4 30-something dinosaurs in defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eelpie Posted 8 October, 2008 Share Posted 8 October, 2008 Who else is there? Aside from signing up some loan defenders a la Dailly and Lucketti last season, we have to make do with the young defenders we have, with either ageing, injury prone Svensson, Thomas and Perry to help out, or midfielders like Surman, Skacel or Wotton. The key is getting the youngsters to concentrate for the 90 minutes, but of course there is no substitute for experience, which the youth will only get by playing. I doubt though that the situation will be addressed, and we'll be seeing a few more nailbiting results before the end of the season. Exactly. The foolishness of Lowe in rejecting Lucketti (and Pearson) in favour of green youngsters, aging ordinary defenders, and untried management is becoming clearer as the season progresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNorthernSaints Posted 9 October, 2008 Share Posted 9 October, 2008 Just because they're available for free doesn't mean they are affordable. I bet plenty of Championship clubs have tried to sign Carr and he simply doesn't wan't to step down. Ian Harte is just **** imo, wasn't even that good as a youngster and he's gone down hill ever since. Well can you think of anyone else then? I'm pretty sure if we can afford to get Smith, Gasmi, Pulis etc in we can afford to get another player like Cork who has experience in this league, and someone who can play right and leftback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alucard Posted 9 October, 2008 Share Posted 9 October, 2008 If you look at any successful team that doesn't ship goals at a rate of knots like us they mostly all have four big bruising, experienced defenders. It's common sense really If we had that experience at the back it would sort out our imbalance of youth. Unfortunately we seem to not have a choice in the decision to play youngsters at the back, as we our regularly told, or do we? How would you get experience back into our defense, and would it be financially viable? Ostlund Thomas Dailly Iffil the defence that conceded 5 at Preston last season Thomas Dailly Davies Skacel the defence that conceded 5 at Sheff W last season Ostlund Powell Thomas Vignal the defence that conceded 5 at Hull last season Wright Thomas Makin Vignal the defence that conceded 3 at Watford last season Wright Thomas Dailly Vignall the defence that conceded 3 at home to Barnsley last season Thomas Powell Davies Wright the defence that concede 3 at home to QPR last season Those defences had big bruising experienced defenders in them and still managed to leak goals. The one common factor in these defences is one of the biggest bruising experienced defender in Wayne Thomas somebody who a lot of people are calling for to stop us leaking goals. If he's the player to shore up the defence how many goals would we have conceded in the above games if he hadn't played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 9 October, 2008 Share Posted 9 October, 2008 A few people seem to be missing the obvious here and that you have to address the 'cause' and not the 'sympton'. The cause appears to be a combination of the formation and the players in that formation giving little or no cover to the full backs. It wouldn't matter if we had Micah Richards or Gary Neville at right back, without cover they will be exposed and the same goes for down the left. Mills looks to have some potential, especially going forward however James is struggling in all aspects of that there is no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 9 October, 2008 Share Posted 9 October, 2008 A few people seem to be missing the obvious here and that you have to address the 'cause' and not the 'sympton'. The cause appears to be a combination of the formation and the players in that formation giving little or no cover to the full backs. It wouldn't matter if we had Micah Richards or Gary Neville at right back, without cover they will be exposed and the same goes for down the left. Mills looks to have some potential, especially going forward however James is struggling in all aspects of that there is no doubt. I've said from the start of the season that James is not good enough at RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 9 October, 2008 Share Posted 9 October, 2008 Well can you think of anyone else then? I'm pretty sure if we can afford to get Smith, Gasmi, Pulis etc in we can afford to get another player like Cork who has experience in this league, and someone who can play right and leftback. Insua from Liverpool isn't getting a look in, maybe a two month loan deal until the start of the January window would be a good idea. Chris Baird on loan, another short term loan that could put him in the shop window so Fulham can sell him in the January window. Ryan Shawcross is available from Stoke, he's a beast of a centre back although I think they're looking for someone to buy him. Stalteri from Spurs can't get a game, another short term loan move could be beneficial to both clubs and the player. Pele from WBA . . . midfield? Ryan Taylor is a decent right back who can't get a game at Wigan. Obviously some of those might not be available or might not be willing to drop down a league on loan. There are plenty of options we should be persuing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 9 October, 2008 Share Posted 9 October, 2008 A few people seem to be missing the obvious here and that you have to address the 'cause' and not the 'sympton'. The cause appears to be a combination of the formation and the players in that formation giving little or no cover to the full backs. It wouldn't matter if we had Micah Richards or Gary Neville at right back, without cover they will be exposed and the same goes for down the left. Mills looks to have some potential, especially going forward however James is struggling in all aspects of that there is no doubt. True, when we had Holmes playing left wing we didn't have many problems defending down the left because Holmes was a natural winger and knew when to help out his full back and when to bomb forward. Since his injury we have lacked a proper winger and played people like Robertson, BWP and McGoldrick there who don't know how to help defend from the wing. Simply put we need to start playing people in positions they are comfortable with. I don't think the formation is the problem, just trying to use strikers on the wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Posted 9 October, 2008 Share Posted 9 October, 2008 Ostlund Thomas Dailly Iffil the defence that conceded 5 at Preston last season Thomas Dailly Davies Skacel the defence that conceded 5 at Sheff W last season Ostlund Powell Thomas Vignal the defence that conceded 5 at Hull last season Wright Thomas Makin Vignal the defence that conceded 3 at Watford last season Wright Thomas Dailly Vignall the defence that conceded 3 at home to Barnsley last season Thomas Powell Davies Wright the defence that concede 3 at home to QPR last season Those defences had big bruising experienced defenders in them and still managed to leak goals. The one common factor in these defences is one of the biggest bruising experienced defender in Wayne Thomas somebody who a lot of people are calling for to stop us leaking goals. If he's the player to shore up the defence how many goals would we have conceded in the above games if he hadn't played. I don't thinkyou can blame Thomas for most of those games. More the fact that in all those defeats we never had the same defence twice and used 18 players in defence last season. At Preston it was only 2-1 after 70 mins, then Wright replaced Ostlund. At Hull we were dreadful and Powell put in the worst performance I have yet seen from a Saints player. Hull were also VERY good that day. Sheff Weds was another crap performance, but I think Davis was as much to blame as anyone else. Thomas is scarcely a RB anyway. The Watford game (away) was before Vignal found form and Makin was a terrible centre half. Watford at home we played Euell and Wright down the left flank and got murdered all afternoon. Barnsley at home we were undone by 2 excellent free kicks and a last minute sucker punch. Against QPR we played Thomas and Wright at fullback, always a bad idea, with two howlers from the latter. Poor finishing also cost us that day. Also don't forget the Palace game, which Thomas didn't play in. Makin at centre half and Alan Bennett's debut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr X Posted 9 October, 2008 Author Share Posted 9 October, 2008 Ostlund Thomas Dailly Iffil the defence that conceded 5 at Preston last season Thomas Dailly Davies Skacel the defence that conceded 5 at Sheff W last season Ostlund Powell Thomas Vignal the defence that conceded 5 at Hull last season Wright Thomas Makin Vignal the defence that conceded 3 at Watford last season Wright Thomas Dailly Vignall the defence that conceded 3 at home to Barnsley last season Thomas Powell Davies Wright the defence that concede 3 at home to QPR last season Those defences had big bruising experienced defenders in them and still managed to leak goals. The one common factor in these defences is one of the biggest bruising experienced defender in Wayne Thomas somebody who a lot of people are calling for to stop us leaking goals. If he's the player to shore up the defence how many goals would we have conceded in the above games if he hadn't played. Since when have ostlund, wright, Skacel been big bruising defenders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 9 October, 2008 Share Posted 9 October, 2008 A few people seem to be missing the obvious here and that you have to address the 'cause' and not the 'sympton'. The cause appears to be a combination of the formation and the players in that formation giving little or no cover to the full backs. It wouldn't matter if we had Micah Richards or Gary Neville at right back, without cover they will be exposed and the same goes for down the left. Mills looks to have some potential, especially going forward however James is struggling in all aspects of that there is no doubt. It's amazing to me that so many have so little understanding of teamwork and support play that only the right back is the obvious problem. The big problem is the wide player wandering off and badly exposing our right side. Against Coventry it stretched our back four and left Mills isolated as the last man on our far post. Where were the two holding midfielders and the wide left to help him out. Our teamplay without the ball is inadequate and our discipline non- existent. Strikers playing in wide positions is not the problem, Babb and McKenzie aren't wingers but they were wide and cut us to pieces. Our wide men didn't play there, reducing our width in attack and worse exposing our defence to counter attack wide, stretching our back four and leaving our midfield stranded behind the attack, unable to get back and support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 9 October, 2008 Share Posted 9 October, 2008 Since when have ostlund, wright, Skacel been big bruising defenders? Ostlund was considered "hard" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostBoys Posted 10 October, 2008 Share Posted 10 October, 2008 I have serious reservations about James at full back as I think he has great potential in midfield where he played in the Reserves. Mills and Lancashire are simply not ready yet. I think we should play Cork at right back and get a loanee at lwft back with Svennson and Perry in the middle with Spiderman playing in front of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamsaint Posted 10 October, 2008 Share Posted 10 October, 2008 the secret (and its not a secret) to good defence is: Stability. you really don't need world beaters, just roughly the same competent back four week in, week out. so: Cork Perry wotton Skacel picked every week might very well quickly develop into a decent t back four(especially if they get adequate cover- NO defnce can cope if left exposed). As an example the amazing Arsenal back four of Dixon Bould Adams Winterburn. At that level only one exceptional player IMO, but they were a superb outfit, and none of them ever seemed to miss a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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