SMS Trading

[Weston Saint]

Looking at the trading statement issued to the stock market on 27th July there was a comment that the full unaudited figures would be available in 10 -12 weeks

 

Tomorrow is 11 weeks on so they should be out soon.

 

However what they will not show, unless they issue a further trading update, is what our debt is at present.

 

We have not sold or shifted all the high earners we had hoped and gates have significantly reduced. Also we have seen no cash injection over that period from shareholders or other investors.

 

I wonder our state at present? We must be in a bigger mess despite the dratic action taken so far!

 

What next for SLHplc?

[trousers]

 

What next for SLHplc?

 

Nationalisation?

[Weston Saint]

Nationalisation?

 

 

Nice one

[Weston Super Saint]

Better things for us than WHUPLC.

 

Bad times for them.

[alpine_saint]

Looking at the trading statement issued to the stock market on 27th July there was a comment that the full unaudited figures would be available in 10 -12 weeks

 

Tomorrow is 11 weeks on so they should be out soon.

 

However what they will not show, unless they issue a further trading update, is what our debt is at present.

 

We have not sold or shifted all the high earners we had hoped and gates have significantly reduced. Also we have seen no cash injection over that period from shareholders or other investors.

 

I wonder our state at present? We must be in a bigger mess despite the dratic action taken so far!

 

What next for SLHplc?

 

Administration, most likely. Thought that would be obvious. (Awaits abuse)

[fos1]

Administration, most likely. Thought that would be obvious. (Awaits abuse)

 

Lowe and Wilde to puy some money in !!!!!!!

Dont hold your breathe

[Weston Saint]

Lowe and Wilde to puy some money in !!!!!!!

Dont hold your breathe

 

I think it unlikely Lowe and Wilde would put any money in unless all shareholders did likewise and I mean ALL.

 

My worry in these banking crisis times is that if our debt is increasing they will insist on further player sales in January to reduce the debt. It will not solve the long term debt problem but solve the short term one.

 

Surman has already caught the eye of Reading. Rumours that Spurs and Fulham (I don't trust the Fulham one) are looking at Lallana. Davis is impressing. At least one of them will be at risk. None of them want to go. They want to play for Saints but they may have no choice in the matter. That is my worry.

[Weston Saint]

Administration, most likely. Thought that would be obvious. (Awaits abuse)

 

Unlikely at present G but a long term worry still. But that applies to many in the CCC

[Long Shot]

Lowe and Wilde to puy some money in !!!!!!!

Dont hold your breathe

 

But have they any to put in? Lowe a few bob I presume but Wilde...?

 

I fear our original overdraft of £6m has not been reduced and may have in fact increased which will not amuse Barclays, especially this week.

 

Dwindling gates have come as a bit of a shock I think, certailnly I am surprised and this must be a big concern for the present incumbents of the hot seat. As Weston Saint says unless the shareholders dig deep players simply will have to be sold.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I would have thought we did just about enough in the summer to get us through to the end of the season without calling in the Administrator , but considering the dire match-day attendance numbers so far this season and the world financial crisis all bets are off now .

[Weston Saint]

I would have thought we did just about enough in the summer to get us through to the end of the season without calling in the Administrator , but considering the dire match-day attendance numbers so far this season and the world financial crisis all bets are off now .

 

I doubt the banks will withdraw their support but they WILL impose their will and the plc board will not be able to avoid action.

 

The only difference being, in Administration anything of value will be sold to assist CLEARING the debt including the bank overdraft. If they continue to support but impose restrictions the Board will be able to make the decision what and who will be sold/cut/made redundant to stabilize the debt.

 

That is why I do not think official Administration is at our door at this time.

[Glasgow_Saint]

We will be finished by 11am on 01.01.2011 WE ALL WILL!!

 

This is the date and time of the end of the world - one for your diaries I suggest?

[Window Cleaner]

We will be finished by 11am on 01.01.2011 WE ALL WILL!!

 

This is the date and time of the end of the world - one for your diaries I suggest?

 

Is that a Friday or a Wednesday?

[Snowballs2]

Judging by recent events I wonder just how "Sharp" the banks are ? If a business plan was put together based on :-

 

A) an attendance at home matches of say 21,000

 

B) an agreed strategy to get rid of the high wage earners

 

Will the banks ask Lowe why he has not been able to accomplish this, if the banks have their fingers on the pulse and know that a number are staying away because of Lowe, is that likely to have an effect on his position?

In addition if the league position continues to give concern, could the banks suggest that those assets not being used but still taking their wage be ;put into the team to stabilise things and make them more attractive to sell on.

At the moment they are not in the shop window because they are not playing first team football

[Glasgow_Saint]

Is that a Friday or a Wednesday?

 

Thursday!

 

Thursday is the new Wednesday, Wednesday was the new Friday, now Wednesday is a Wednesday and Friday is just a day. Thursday is the new Friday.

 

HTH

[Weston Saint]

Judging by recent events I wonder just how "Sharp" the banks are ? If a business plan was put together based on :-

 

A) an attendance at home matches of say 21,000

 

B) an agreed strategy to get rid of the high wage earners

 

Will the banks ask Lowe why he has not been able to accomplish this, if the banks have their fingers on the pulse and know that a number are staying away because of Lowe, is that likely to have an effect on his position?

In addition if the league position continues to give concern, could the banks suggest that those assets not being used but still taking their wage be ;put into the team to stabilise things and make them more attractive to sell on.

At the moment they are not in the shop window because they are not playing first team football

 

I do not consider more than 250, 500 to be generous, are staying away because of Lowe so that will not be a consideration.

 

The bank will not call the shots on who plays or is sold (although they will be the decision makers on money for signings). They will give an ultimatum of what cost reduction is necessary but will leave it to the plc to decide how it is achieved.

[Glasgow_Saint]

Judging by recent events I wonder just how "Sharp" the banks are ? If a business plan was put together based on :-

 

A) an attendance at home matches of say 21,000

 

B) an agreed strategy to get rid of the high wage earners

 

Will the banks ask Lowe why he has not been able to accomplish this, if the banks have their fingers on the pulse and know that a number are staying away because of Lowe, is that likely to have an effect on his position?

In addition if the league position continues to give concern, could the banks suggest that those assets not being used but still taking their wage be ;put into the team to stabilise things and make them more attractive to sell on.

At the moment they are not in the shop window because they are not playing first team football

 

I think you over estimate the effect Lowe has on attendances - IMO id estimate maybe only a handful of people have stayed away from SMS purely because of Lowe.

 

I think some 'stay aways' will just say Lowe is to blame for there non attendance - i think its become an acceptable excuse.

[Weston Super Saint]

We will be finished by 11am on 01.01.2011 WE ALL WILL!!

 

This is the date and time of the end of the world - one for your diaries I suggest?

 

Oh noooooeeeeesssss, not the end of the world again.

[Amesbury Saint]

Looking at the trading statement issued to the stock market on 27th July there was a comment that the full unaudited figures would be available in 10 -12 weeks

 

Tomorrow is 11 weeks on so they should be out soon.

 

However what they will not show, unless they issue a further trading update, is what our debt is at present.

 

We have not sold or shifted all the high earners we had hoped and gates have significantly reduced. Also we have seen no cash injection over that period from shareholders or other investors.

 

I wonder our state at present? We must be in a bigger mess despite the dratic action taken so far!

 

What next for SLHplc?

 

Re trading update - at what point do they have to issue one? Some companies issue quarterly updates.

 

I suspect they will have to issue one if there is a material change to the trading position and / or level of debt.

[DT]

flybe going down will be the next hit.

[puff the magic dragon]

Looking at the global recession and the fact banks - institutions that should be rock solid - are having to be propped up, it doesn't bode well for Saints or a long list of other clubs that are not financially viable because they've lived beyond their means.

 

I'm positive that Saints will end up in administration, but given the recession - which is looking like it could turn into a depression - the very existance of SFC is imo now in doubt.

 

In hindsight perhaps winning on the final day against Sheff Utd was a disaster because i'm sure we'd have been mopped up had hat happened. I'm not so sure we'd be mopped up now and with every passing day the likelyhood of liquidation becomes more probable.

[Scummer]

flybe going down will be the next hit.

 

In their last issued results, only a couple of months ago, Flybe were making decent profits.

[Scummer]

But have they any to put in? Lowe a few bob I presume but Wilde...?

 

A while back when it was stated that Wilde was going to inject a couple of million into the club, it was said that he had a family trust fund of somewhere in the region of £100M.

[Window Cleaner]

[quote=puff the magic dragon;71739.

 

I'm positive that Saints will end up in administration, but given the recession - which is looking like it could turn into a depression - the very existance of SFC is imo now in doubt.

 

I

 

 

Well don't forget to invite me to your street party when that happens then.

Honestly i don't know why some of you blokes bother .

[Junior Mullet]

We will not go into admin, not with Lowe in charge and holding shares. Relegation would come before admin.

 

Fecking doom-mongers on here. You should be writing for the Mail.

[Weston Saint]

Looking at the global recession and the fact banks - institutions that should be rock solid - are having to be propped up, it doesn't bode well for Saints or a long list of other clubs that are not financially viable because they've lived beyond their means.

 

I'm positive that Saints will end up in administration, but given the recession - which is looking like it could turn into a depression - the very existance of SFC is imo now in doubt.

 

In hindsight perhaps winning on the final day against Sheff Utd was a disaster because i'm sure we'd have been mopped up had hat happened. I'm not so sure we'd be mopped up now and with every passing day the likelyhood of liquidation becomes more probable.

 

Tris, how come you have two posting names (Stanley). About time you forked up £5 rather than try to circumvent by multiple identities.

[trousers]

Tris, how come you have two posting names (Stanley). About time you forked up £5 rather than try to circumvent by multiple identities.

 

Quite clever though.....now, why didn't I think of doing that......?

[dubai_phil]

Love him or hate him, the steps that Lowe (and Wilde) took on their return means that even in the current climate we will last longer than many la-la land clubs. Rumours abound in the press since Lord Triesman's comments.

Assets, Profit, Loss and Cash-flow are the key points. Losses can be covered IF you have assets. No bank is likely to shut down a club in mid season because they will NOT be able to sell any assets (players). Likewise, no Bank Manager is going to ANNOUNCE that they will be having a fire-sale in January as the BANK will be wanting to get the most money they can for the players to recover their money, a fire-sale means bargain prices.

The PROBLEMS will come when the cash-flow runs out, or when ANY club needs to extend it's overdraft. Not paying the VAT/Tax, Salaries or even local suppliers would be what causes somebody to go pop.

We certainly aren't safe from admin, but it is NOT in the interests of the BANK to let it happen and so they hold the cheque book and as others have said will let us trade our way out.

But those clubs relying on "FUTURE" cash flow or ever widening debt that is "guaranteed" by an owner will be in real trouble FIRST

 

With LUCK we could survive the first round of admins when (if) it really goes t*ts up in football and after that I am sure a Government with an election coming up will not allow the whole sorry mess to collapse either

[Gorgiesaint]

Looking at the global recession and the fact banks - institutions that should be rock solid - are having to be propped up, it doesn't bode well for Saints or a long list of other clubs that are not financially viable because they've lived beyond their means.

 

I'm positive that Saints will end up in administration, but given the recession - which is looking like it could turn into a depression - the very existance of SFC is imo now in doubt.

 

So if you are a true Saints fan, then how do you support your desire for the club to go into administration which you posted on the 'foresight' thread?

[Gorgiesaint]

Love him or hate him, the steps that Lowe (and Wilde) took on their return means that even in the current climate we will last longer than many la-la land clubs. Rumours abound in the press since Lord Triesman's comments.

Assets, Profit, Loss and Cash-flow are the key points. Losses can be covered IF you have assets. No bank is likely to shut down a club in mid season because they will NOT be able to sell any assets (players). Likewise, no Bank Manager is going to ANNOUNCE that they will be having a fire-sale in January as the BANK will be wanting to get the most money they can for the players to recover their money, a fire-sale means bargain prices.

The PROBLEMS will come when the cash-flow runs out, or when ANY club needs to extend it's overdraft. Not paying the VAT/Tax, Salaries or even local suppliers would be what causes somebody to go pop.

We certainly aren't safe from admin, but it is NOT in the interests of the BANK to let it happen and so they hold the cheque book and as others have said will let us trade our way out.

But those clubs relying on "FUTURE" cash flow or ever widening debt that is "guaranteed" by an owner will be in real trouble FIRST

 

With LUCK we could survive the first round of admins when (if) it really goes t*ts up in football and after that I am sure a Government with an election coming up will not allow the whole sorry mess to collapse either

 

Agree with much of what you say Phil.

 

My main concern (as you indicated) is that despite the bank allowing us to trade our way out of trouble, they will be much tighter with the purse strings. If the cash-flow now still has more going out than in, then they may refuse to sanction any increase (however small in the overdraft) - that then leads to others not being paid, and the downward spiral to administration.

 

It will be interesting to see that when the results come out, what other statements ar made about our financial position to see if the cuts made have made enough of a difference.

[dubai_phil]

Ha just found this - I should be a guru - this is how NOT to get the best price for your players when you're in the sh*t

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/westham/3161461/West-Ham-plan-fire-sale-of-players-as-crisis-bites-Football.html

 

The club would listen to offers for Danny Gabbidon, Hayden Mullins, Nigel Quashie, Calum Davenport, James Collins, Jonathan Spector, Lee Bowyer and Luis Boa Morte. It was already felt that the squad was far too big under Alan Curbishley and new manager Gianfranco Zola is determined to have quality rather than quantity.

 

 

lol now where have we seen the too big a squad full of journeymen not quality story before

[Scummer]

Ha just found this - I should be a guru - this is how NOT to get the best price for your players when you're in the sh*t

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/westham/3161461/West-Ham-plan-fire-sale-of-players-as-crisis-bites-Football.html

 

The club would listen to offers for Danny Gabbidon, Hayden Mullins, Nigel Quashie, Calum Davenport, James Collins, Jonathan Spector, Lee Bowyer and Luis Boa Morte. It was already felt that the squad was far too big under Alan Curbishley and new manager Gianfranco Zola is determined to have quality rather than quantity.

 

 

lol now where have we seen the too big a squad full of journeymen not quality story before

 

Three of our ex players in that list as well.

[SaintRichmond]

Nationalisation?

 

 

 

Gordon the One Eyed Jaw Dropper, and his Parrot, that Darling Alistair, may prop us up by Investing £50bn ......... assuming that will be enough of course

[Window Cleaner]

Three of our ex players in that list as well.

 

They'll be lucky if they get a couple of million for all of them put together.

Not really consistent class premiership players, their salaries will be too high for

most CCC clubs. West Ham will be in serious trouble very soon.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

it doesn't bode well for Saints or a long list of other clubs that are not financially viable because they've lived beyond their means.

 

The extent of damage due to our living beyond our means, in the big scheme of things, was not so bad that financially it is irreparable, a gamble was taken that all most paid off, imo we have the best man(of those in the frame) to lead this fire fight and believe with moderate success on the pitch will trade out of our current problems, would be nice to receive large investment but for the minute due to the current climate believe only we the fans can give our club the capital injection it needs to remain liquid

[Oz]

we will be finished by 11am on 01.01.2011 we all will!!

 

This is the date and time of the end of the world - one for your diaries i suggest?

 

yes, we are doomed, doomed, doomed my lovlies!

[SaintRichmond]

A while back when it was stated that Wilde was going to inject a couple of million into the club, it was said that he had a family trust fund of somewhere in the region of £100M.

 

 

It was a misprint ....... it should have read £100.0p

[SaintRichmond]

We will not go into admin, not with Lowe in charge and holding shares. Relegation would come before admin.

 

Fecking doom-mongers on here. You should be writing for the Mail.

 

 

"relegation would come before admin "

 

 

........ and you view that as NOT Doom Mongering ????

 

 

So you are a "We may only be in the Conference South, but Rupert has kept the PLC in the black " ..... admirer then ???

[Snowballs2]

Japanese Banks

 

 

Following the problems in the sub-prime lending market in America and the

run on HBOS in the UK, uncertainty has now hit Japan.

 

 

In the last 7 hours Origami Bank has folded, Sumo Bank has gone belly up

and Bonsai Bank announced plans to cut some of it’ s branches. Yesterday,

it was announced that Karaoke Bank is up for sale and likely to go for a

song, while today shares in Kamikaze Bank were suspended after they

nose-dived.

 

 

Samurai Bank is soldiering on following sharp cutbacks, Ninja Bank is

reported to have taken a hit but they remain in the black. Furthermore,

500 staff at Karate Bank got the chop and analysts report that there is

something fishy going on at Sushi Bank where it is feared that staff may

get a raw deal.

[derry]

flybe going down will be the next hit.

 

Made £20m plus last year. Plus BA paid them shedloads to cover BA Express takeover.

Edited 9 October, 2008 by derry

[derry]

Japanese Banks

 

 

Following the problems in the sub-prime lending market in America and the

run on HBOS in the UK, uncertainty has now hit Japan.

 

 

In the last 7 hours Origami Bank has folded, Sumo Bank has gone belly up

and Bonsai Bank announced plans to cut some of it’ s branches. Yesterday,

it was announced that Karaoke Bank is up for sale and likely to go for a

song, while today shares in Kamikaze Bank were suspended after they

nose-dived.

 

 

Samurai Bank is soldiering on following sharp cutbacks, Ninja Bank is

reported to have taken a hit but they remain in the black. Furthermore,

500 staff at Karate Bank got the chop and analysts report that there is

something fishy going on at Sushi Bank where it is feared that staff may

get a raw deal.

 

At least somebody has a sense of humour. LOL.

[SaintRichmond]

japanese banks

 

 

following the problems in the sub-prime lending market in america and the

run on hbos in the uk, uncertainty has now hit japan.

 

 

In the last 7 hours origami bank has folded, sumo bank has gone belly up

and bonsai bank announced plans to cut some of it’ s branches. Yesterday,

it was announced that karaoke bank is up for sale and likely to go for a

song, while today shares in kamikaze bank were suspended after they

nose-dived.

 

 

Samurai bank is soldiering on following sharp cutbacks, ninja bank is

reported to have taken a hit but they remain in the black. Furthermore,

500 staff at karate bank got the chop and analysts report that there is

something fishy going on at sushi bank where it is feared that staff may

get a raw deal.

 

 

brilliant !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[St_Tel49]

We will be finished by 11am on 01.01.2011 WE ALL WILL!!

 

This is the date and time of the end of the world - one for your diaries I suggest?

 

Fulthorpe had better get a move on then

[WheresRory]

Your accounts will only go up to the end of June so current attendances won't be included. Also Lowe did the sensible thing when he took back control by saying the situation was dire and at least a £5m loss for the year was forecast. Basically blaming the previous regime for any horrors the accounts may show.

 

 

Bearing in mind that the 6 month accounts showed a small loss with player trading and a massive loss without it I would assume the £5m figure includes it. To be sustainable though you really need to look at the profit/loss excluding player trading. Which using very crude maths will be an approximate £14m loss upto June 2008

[Window Cleaner]

Which using very crude maths will be an approximate £14m loss upto June 2008

 

 

I should like you all to stop and think before bandying such figures around.

If we did indeed have an operating loss of 14 million last year that would basically mean that we could not in fact afford to pay a single player.

The player and coach salary mass will show up at about 12.5 million I expect.

So we are in fact a football club that cannot afford to pay a single player or coach. Think about that. The income will probably show up at around 10.5 million (ex player trading) so we in fact spent 24.5 million £ on operating the club including 12 million or so outside of playing and coaching staff salaries.

Whoever let the club get into that state needs shooting

[WheresRory]

I should like you all to stop and think before bandying such figures around.

If we did indeed have an operating loss of 14 million last year that would basically mean that we could not in fact afford to pay a single player.

The player and coach salary mass will show up at about 12.5 million I expect.

So we are in fact a football club that cannot afford to pay a single player or coach. Think about that. The income will probably show up at around 10.5 million (ex player trading) so we in fact spent 24.5 million £ on operating the club including 12 million or so outside of playing and coaching staff salaries.

Whoever let the club get into that state needs shooting

 

That loss is calculated using very basic calculations from the last interim accounts and importantly was before player trading was taken into account. Your loss for the 6 months upto 31/12/07 excluding player sales was £7.3m but after player sales of £9m you actually made a profit!

[Window Cleaner]

That loss is calculated using very basic calculations from the last interim accounts and importantly was before player trading was taken into account. Your loss for the 6 months upto 31/12/07 excluding player sales was £7.3m but after player sales of £9m you actually made a profit!

 

Yes but that's nothing to do with it is it.

A 14 million operating loss means that we cannot pay a single player without

selling players. It's basic arithmetic, if you lose 14 million on your operation but your playing + coaching staff salary mass is 12.5 million, you couldn't afford to pay them from normal proceeds.

We are in fact a football club that can't afford professional footballers (if you take the operating loss to be 14 million as stated).It means that all your gate

and commercial receipts went to pay for things other than football players.

[WheresRory]

Yes but that's nothing to do with it is it.

A 14 million operating loss means that we cannot pay a single player without

selling players. It's basic arithmetic, if you lose 14 million on your operation but your playing + coaching staff salary mass is 12.5 million, you couldn't afford to pay them from normal proceeds.

We are in fact a football club that can't afford professional footballers (if you take the operating loss to be 14 million as stated).It means that all your gate

and commercial receipts went to pay for things other than football players.

 

Well you would have hoped that the costs this year are nowhere near last year although income will probably drop by a few million as well. Also the second half of the year may not have been as bad as the first (higher attendances, Rasiak & Skacels wages being offloaded)

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/uploads/documents/mar_08/sfc_1206985141_halfyearaccountsmarch08.doc

 

This is my last post of the day so here’s a link to the report I was talking about so you can make up your own mind.

 

One thing it does do is (for me anyway) is call into question the claim that 17K Supporters is a break even point.

[um pahars]

Ha just found this - I should be a guru - this is how NOT to get the best price for your players when you're in the sh*t

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/westham/3161461/West-Ham-plan-fire-sale-of-players-as-crisis-bites-Football.html

 

The club would listen to offers for Danny Gabbidon, Hayden Mullins, Nigel Quashie, Calum Davenport, James Collins, Jonathan Spector, Lee Bowyer and Luis Boa Morte. It was already felt that the squad was far too big under Alan Curbishley and new manager Gianfranco Zola is determined to have quality rather than quantity.

 

 

lol now where have we seen the too big a squad full of journeymen not quality story before

 

You're quite right there Phil and to his credit, Lowe did a good job when we fell out of the Premiership.

 

That summer he played hardball with Liverpool over Crouch and insisted we had no need to sell (along with others during that season). Although this wasn't the truth and some renewing season ticket holders were up in arms, I have to say those little white lies were in the best interests of the Club.

[um pahars]

I should like you all to stop and think before bandying such figures around.

If we did indeed have an operating loss of 14 million last year that would basically mean that we could not in fact afford to pay a single player.

The player and coach salary mass will show up at about 12.5 million I expect.

So we are in fact a football club that cannot afford to pay a single player or coach. Think about that. The income will probably show up at around 10.5 million (ex player trading) so we in fact spent 24.5 million £ on operating the club including 12 million or so outside of playing and coaching staff salaries.

Whoever let the club get into that state needs shooting

 

I'm afraid he's close to being spot on with his analysis!!!!!

 

Our operating Loss wil be circa £13m on income of £14m (therefore costs were about £27m, of which wages were about £12m).

 

You could argue it will be a loss of £15m by the time you factor in interest costs.

 

The ony reason we have funded this mismatch is by selling players and/or increasing overdrafts (or sorting out other short/medium term financing arrangements). The cashflow will give you a good idea of what really happened behind the scenes and I await with some trepidation what our net debt position will be.

 

But it has been the same from the minute we fell out of the top flight. In our first season down we had a cash deficit on normal trading of £9m!!!!! This would effectively have been circa £16m!!!!! without the parachute payment.

 

IMHO, we're still running at a loss, as I can't see where we have lost £13m-£15m in costs since Lowe & Wilde have come back in. So once again that void will be filled by player sales (and/or other financing e.g. overdrafts, loans renegotiating interest & "mortgage" payments).