Cameron - "Multiculturalism has failed"

[SuperMikey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

 

Discuss.

[buctootim]

Aren't you supposed to start?

[Somewhere In Northam]

He also signalled a tougher stance on groups promoting Islamist extremism.

surely we should take a tougher stance on all groups promoting extremism?

one thread on here springs instantly to mind

Edited 5 February, 2011 by Somewhere In Northam

[dubai_phil]

Lol

 

Watched the speech while having my lunch.

 

First thought ooh he's hitting some nails on heads here that people won't like

Second thought It needed to be said

 

Third thought Oh boy now he's gone and done it, there'll be rows on this for years

[bridge too far]

My only thought - he's simply copying what Angela Merkel said a few months ago.

 

Not an original thought then

[SuperMikey]

Ok then.

 

The timing of this speech is too coincidental - Cameron speaks out on extremist Islamic factions just as the EDL prepare to march in Luton. Funny how he criticises the Muslim community for not doing enough to tackle the causes of terrorism and then talks about the need for a 'stronger national identity' when we've got groups like the EDL, BNP etc. stirring up trouble in the first place. FWIW, extremism is present in every society, every culture, every religion, every race and there's not much we can do to eradicate it apart from brainwashing. There will always be people whose views differ from our societal norms, that's just the way the world works. It's just impossible for one nation to share one set of ideals and morals - something that the blinkered Conservatives and far-righters don't get.

[woodfc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

 

Discuss.

 

And when did Cameron first realise "Multiculturalism has failed", yesterday, last week, last year, ten years ago?

[Channon's Sideburns]

Religon sadly, is the root of most of the world's evil.

 

Oh I forgot, oil.

[Smirking_Saint]

Every normal person in the UK realises that multiculturalism has failed, as much as i respect each society and culture as their own i have witnessed the slow and painful demise of our own in an attempt to integrate everyone into one massive super society, this was destined never to work.

 

Unfortunately you can never speak with any sense of national pride or patriotism these days without someone getting the racist card out and banging on about political correctness.

 

I am glad he has spoken out, about time we also degraded the political correct society, blame (suing) culture and as much as i agree with freedom of speech it should never be taken to the extremes it is these days.

 

FWIW the EDL are as bad as any other extremist faction IMO.

[Gingeletiss]

Every normal person in the UK realises that multiculturalism has failed, as much as i respect each society and culture as their own i have witnessed the slow and painful demise of our own in an attempt to integrate everyone into one massive super society, this was destined never to work.

 

Unfortunately you can never speak with any sense of national pride or patriotism these days without someone getting the racist card out and banging on about political correctness.

 

I am glad he has spoken out, about time we also degraded the political correct society, blame (suing) culture and as much as i agree with freedom of speech it should never be taken to the extremes it is these days.

 

FWIW the EDL are as bad as any other extremist faction IMO.

 

This.

[Saintandy666]

Cameron has a point and I don't think we should dismiss everything he says just because he is David Cameron. Multiculturalism has failed in many ways and many places, beyond what I can witness living where I do in a largely white british middle class town.

 

The key isn't forcing people to 'integrate' because then you don't have multi-cultures, you just have one. The key is understanding and acceptance and the stopping of this closed community bullcrap. Then again, I guess it can sometimes be difficult for people with different perspectives on life to build up friendships and when this turns into ignorance is when the danger comes.

 

I disagree with Cameron on Religion and Politics being separate because too often, they do overlap. Religion should be private, Politics is public. We should also not think that religion is culture because it isn't, it's one component of it.

[solentstars]

Ok then.

 

The timing of this speech is too coincidental - Cameron speaks out on extremist Islamic factions just as the EDL prepare to march in Luton. Funny how he criticises the Muslim community for not doing enough to tackle the causes of terrorism and then talks about the need for a 'stronger national identity' when we've got groups like the EDL, BNP etc. stirring up trouble in the first place. FWIW, extremism is present in every society, every culture, every religion, every race and there's not much we can do to eradicate it apart from brainwashing. There will always be people whose views differ from our societal norms, that's just the way the world works. It's just impossible for one nation to share one set of ideals and morals - something that the blinkered Conservatives and far-righters don't get.

 

good post

[dubai_phil]

Ok then.

 

The timing of this speech is too coincidental - Cameron speaks out on extremist Islamic factions just as the EDL prepare to march in Luton. Funny how he criticises the Muslim community for not doing enough to tackle the causes of terrorism and then talks about the need for a 'stronger national identity' when we've got groups like the EDL, BNP etc. stirring up trouble in the first place. FWIW, extremism is present in every society, every culture, every religion, every race and there's not much we can do to eradicate it apart from brainwashing. There will always be people whose views differ from our societal norms, that's just the way the world works. It's just impossible for one nation to share one set of ideals and morals - something that the blinkered Conservatives and far-righters don't get.

 

You should listen to the whole speech. He did cover a great deal about all forms of Extremism.

 

The general gist however was that (as an example) there would be uproar IF a Government provided funding to a Far Right Movement to try and stop it's members becoming Violent Far Right Extremists. And yet this is what the "multicultural" argue should be done by giving YOUR tax money to Extreme Islamist groups.

 

The problem with his speech was that in it's context and entirety it made a great amount of sense. But, because it steps on so many toes it will be cut down into sound bites and pieces will be argued about, not the actual simple concept which was that IF there is no National Identity, then people will not care about anything.

 

I think it could be read as the first step on the road to finally allowing England to celebrate St George's Day as it's National Day

 

[solentstars]

And when did Cameron first realise "Multiculturalism has failed", yesterday, last week, last year, ten years ago?

 

he he i wondered that to,i expect hes playing to the gallery and trying to keep the looney right in his party on side.

its funny how much like a blair clone hes become.

[hypochondriac]

surely we should take a tougher stance on all groups promoting extremism?

one thread on here springs instantly to mind

 

I would argue that the extremism which causes people to blow themselves up is the most concerning form. It was an encouraging speech and nice to know the country can question these things without being accused of racism.

[hypochondriac]

My only thought - he's simply copying what Angela Merkel said a few months ago.

 

Not an original thought then

 

Why does that matter? I

A good speech is a good speech and I think it shows an interesting way forward.

[Jonnyboy]

Every normal person in the UK realises that multiculturalism has failed, as much as i respect each society and culture as their own i have witnessed the slow and painful demise of our own in an attempt to integrate everyone into one massive super society, this was destined never to work.

 

Unfortunately you can never speak with any sense of national pride or patriotism these days without someone getting the racist card out and banging on about political correctness.

 

I am glad he has spoken out, about time we also degraded the political correct society, blame (suing) culture and as much as i agree with freedom of speech it should never be taken to the extremes it is these days.

 

FWIW the EDL are as bad as any other extremist faction IMO.

 

For example?

[bridge too far]

Was he just talking about England, or the whole of the UK?

 

I would venture that the Scots, Welsh and Irish would consider their national identities to be very different to that of the English - so it's important to know who he was actually talking about.

 

I'm not too clear about what our collective moral viewpoint is. I expect we all have different moral standpoints. Who decides what the British / English view is? The church ? - but we have many churches, even within the Christian faith. What about those of us who are humanists / aetheists / agnostics / devil worshipppers?

 

Many people (not on here but esteemed commentators) have said the words are empty - he's not given any detail about what he actually means.

[Seaford Saint]

Call me naive but if we as in the UK were not stuck the US arses and did not go around invading countries we would not have an extremist threat to deal with.

[buctootim]

Call me naive but if we as in the UK were not stuck the US arses and did not go around invading countries we would not have an extremist threat to deal with.

 

Like Sweden, Spain and India you mean?

[Deppo]

Multiculturalism has failed.

 

Lets try aparthied. That is BOUND to work.

[Barney Trubble]

Anybody could have told him this years ago, you can place different cultures, religions, colours together but this doesn't mean it's inclusive. I remember having a head teacher report me for my suggestion that all immigrants should be made to learn English after a few years in this country, the reasons being that it would give greater opportunity for a common denominator for all those that come to the country to integrate and communicate. I was tired of kids at school, aged five, six etc, who were born in this country, still not being able to speak basic English at that age and that it would be in the long term interests of those kids to be around families who speak English at home as they really need to try and immerse themselves, not just at school but at home too.

 

There was no malice in my opinion, just trying to be pragmatic about the situation. Of course, the head was a wet lettuce and reported my comments as inappropriate.

 

I still maintain that opinion, I really do think that just placing so many different people, from so many different backgrounds, together without any real long-term plan to make it all inclusive a nonsense move. When I am in Birmingham it's clear in a lot of areas that it's just a parallel universe for some communities, they pass each other in the street, shops, schools etc and yet they might as well live poles apart as in a lot of cases there is no communication and that means they simply only mix with their own and the cycle of misunderstanding and miscommunication carries on from one generation to the next.

 

It won't solve the problem per se but it can surely only be a positive.

[badgerx16]

Multiculturism has not failed, but the press, especially the Heil, the Torygraph, and the Currant Bun like to tell you it has.

[Wade Garrett]

I think Cameron is an arse, and his Government are making a pigs ear out of running the country.

 

But...he is bang on with this speech, and brave to come out and say it. Fair play to him.

[solentstars]

Multiculturism has not failed, but the press, especially the Heil, the Torygraph, and the Currant Bun like to tell you it has.

 

i agree i think we have a great multcultural record in this country compared to other country's so i depends on your mindset if you think its failed or not.

their is a problem with islamic extremists but i do not link that to every muslim and we have far right extremists and supporters like a regular poster on this forum but they are in a minority.

the uk is a great country despite those who run it down.

[solentstars]

Multiculturalism has failed.

 

Lets try aparthied. That is BOUND to work.

 

you been hanging about with dune to much lol:)

[woodfc]

Wasnt it David Blunkett who said a few years ago that multiculturalism has failed - Labour. Now its David Cameron saying the same self thing - Tory.

So do you think that anything will change? The Blair/Brown government didnt deliver and likewise the Cameron government will be full of hot air!

[dune]

Multiculturism has faild wow theres a shock. Still it's good to hear a politician say what i've said for a long a time.

[View From The Top]

I think Cameron is an arse, and his Government are making a pigs ear out of running the country.

 

But...he is bang on with this speech, and brave to come out and say it. Fair play to him.

 

This.

[dune]

you been hanging about with dune to much lol:)

 

He's just a knob that thinks he's funny.

[saint francis]

Multiculturism is inevitable as it has always been. Trying to keep people apart, to separate them 'for whatever purpose you prefer' is, in the long term, ultimately pointless and a waste of energy. Sure what people call 'extremism' needs to be dealt with, but we have laws for that.

[woodfc]

Multiculturism is inevitable as it has always been. Trying to keep people apart, to separate them 'for whatever purpose you prefer' is, in the long term, ultimately pointless and a waste of energy. Sure what people call 'extremism' needs to be dealt with, but we have laws for that.

 

Try telling the families that have suffered by extremists that we have 'LAWS' that can deal with this.

[Deppo]

He's just a knob that thinks he's funny.

 

That's why people think I have been hanging around with you.

[saint francis]

Try telling the families that have suffered by extremists that we have 'LAWS' that can deal with this.

 

Perhaps we could deal with how these families you describe have suffered, before we should approach the legal arguement.

[Joensuu]

I disagree with Cameron. It is not multiculturalism that has failed, but segregation - and misunderstanding.

Where communities have become separate, say in Burnley, it is natural that both groups will be suspicious of each other. Where the segregation of entire communities has been prevented, multiculturalism (in its true form) has been seen to flourish. London is obviously the best example, where there is a true cultural mix and integration there tends to be few problems, where individual communities have been able to dominate problems occur. It's not multiculturalism thats the problem, but the lack of it.

[Griffo]

Fair play for him coming out and saying that. Now it needs actions to be taken, it's all well and good talking about it..

[Smirking_Saint]

For example?

 

Don't even pretend that you have no idea what i am talking about, you know as much as i do. You are a delivery driver, so you hear as much talk that would not be deemed politically correct as any other. Do you deny that ?

[Gingeletiss]

I disagree with Cameron. It is not multiculturalism that has failed, but segregation - and misunderstanding.

Where communities have become separate, say in Burnley, it is natural that both groups will be suspicious of each other. Where the segregation of entire communities has been prevented, multiculturalism (in its true form) has been seen to flourish. London is obviously the best example, where there is a true cultural mix and integration there tends to be few problems, where individual communities have been able to dominate problems occur. It's not multiculturalism thats the problem, but the lack of it.

 

Disagree I'm afraid. It's a natural thing, that like for like stick together, they do so all over the world, Spain is a fine example, you tend to gravitate towards those of the same background and speech. The problem has been exasperated in this country, by being told that we have to be multi cultural, so by default, we are loosing our national identity, whilst all those that have 'arrived' here, get to keep theirs.

 

The Welsh are welsh, the Scots are still Scottish, the Irish are Irish, but we have to be 'multi cutural', we can't even fly our National flag without causing offence to these new elements in society, yet they continue with there own customs and speech, hell, they even want us to adopt certain parts of Sharia law, now that is scarey imo.

[bridge too far]

Disagree I'm afraid. It's a natural thing, that like for like stick together, they do so all over the world, Spain is a fine example, you tend to gravitate towards those of the same background and speech. The problem has been exasperated in this country, by being told that we have to be multi cultural, so by default, we are loosing our national identity, whilst all those that have 'arrived' here, get to keep theirs.

 

The Welsh are welsh, the Scots are still Scottish, the Irish are Irish, but we have to be 'multi cutural', we can't even fly our National flag without causing offence to these new elements in society, yet they continue with there own customs and speech, hell, they even want us to adopt certain parts of Sharia law, now that is scarey imo.

 

This isn't unique to us. In your post, you talk about Spain. There are many, many Brit enclaves in Spain where many of the residents don't even attempt to speak Spanish, and use fellow Brit trades for, e.g., pool cleaning, hairdressing and so on. I bet this happens in other countries that British people choose to migrate to.

 

When people move to a country other than that of their birth, I think it's entirely understandable that they seek out fellow nationals for support and advice. And if, perhaps, they don't get a very nice reception from the indigenous population, it's also entirely understandable that they develop friendships with people of the same background.

 

From what I've read, the only parts of Sharia law that are sometimes used in this country relate to contracts and finance and it's a form of arbitration. We have other methods of arbitration apart from the law - Marriage Guidance for example. I think I'm right in that Sharia law says that people who lend money shouldn't make obscene returns on those loans?

[Essruu]

Multiculturalism has failed.

 

Lets try aparthied. That is BOUND to work.

 

****a Kinte never had to worry about Islamic Extremists.

[Gingeletiss]

This isn't unique to us. In your post, you talk about Spain. There are many, many Brit enclaves in Spain which is why I said 'for example' where many of the residents don't even attempt to speak Spanish, and use fellow Brit trades for, e.g., pool cleaning, hairdressing and so on. I bet this happens in other countries that British why single out British, all nationalities do it people choose to migrate to.

 

When people move to a country other than that of their birth, I think it's entirely understandable that they seek out fellow nationals for support and advice as do I . And if, perhaps, they don't get a very nice reception from the indigenous population say what you really mean BTF, it's also entirely understandable that they develop friendships with people of the same background.

 

From what I've read, the only parts of Sharia law that are sometimes used in this country relate to contracts and finance and it's a form of arbitration. We have other methods of arbitration apart from the law - Marriage Guidance for example. I think I'm right in that Sharia law says that people who lend money shouldn't make obscene returns on those loans?

 

I would suggest, that before you encourage Sharia law taking a foothold in this country, that you go and live in a country governed by it. I did for 18 months, it is not a pleasant experience. As for marriage guidance....lol BTF, they tell you who to marry, you would of loved that as a woman!

[Essruu]

Brilliant filtering of the black hero K u n t a K i n t e there.

[Fuengirola Saint]

Disagree I'm afraid. It's a natural thing, that like for like stick together, they do so all over the world, Spain is a fine example, you tend to gravitate towards those of the same background and speech.

 

 

Not me mate, i lived in Fuengirola for a few years but it done my head in. All the expats refusing to learn a single word of Spanish so i moved to Málaga where you have to speak Spanish to survive and i think you get so much more out of living in another country if you can speak the language.

I am on the left of the political spectrum as a few posters on here will testify but i do think that if anyone wants to live in Britain or any other country for that matter, the least they can do is learn the lingo.

[Joensuu]

Disagree I'm afraid. It's a natural thing, that like for like stick together, they do so all over the world, Spain is a fine example, you tend to gravitate towards those of the same background and speech. The problem has been exasperated in this country, by being told that we have to be multi cultural, so by default, we are loosing our national identity, whilst all those that have 'arrived' here, get to keep theirs.

 

Of course people gravitate towards people they are familiar with, that's only natural. But this natural action is the polar opposite of multicultralism, it leads to divided groups.Groups need to be encouraged to mix and integrate to avoid mutual misunderstanding. What you have identified is that without multicultralism, unitegrated communites will become established. Multicultralism is the solution to this problem.

 

The Welsh are welsh, the Scots are still Scottish, the Irish are Irish, but we have to be 'multi cutural', we can't even fly our National flag without causing offence to these new elements in society, yet they continue with there own customs and speech, hell, they even want us to adopt certain parts of Sharia law, now that is scarey imo.

 

There is ethnic and cultural diversity in Wales, Scotland, and Ireland too, we all aspire to be more integrated, and less divided as communites. England isn't alone in this.

 

As for our flag, you are right it used to cause offence to many, simply because it was adopted by extreme authoritarian groups. No 'new' element of society (as you call them) is offended by the Union Flag, however they are rightly offended by the threat of skinhead violence it used to indicate. You seem to be blaming Political Correctness for this, rather than the true root of the problem - racism.

 

There is no problem with communites 'continu[ing] with their own customs', but there is a problem when communites refuse to mix and integrated into British customs. This is what multicultralism is about, integration, not division.

 

As for 'Sharia law', yes a tiny number of w@nkers who haven't integrated do want to impose this. This isn't a failing of multicutralism, it's a failing not to more actively support and assist multicutralism. The fact that some communities aren't integrated is discusting IMO.

 

I think you might misunderstand multicultralism.

[bridge too far]

I would suggest, that before you encourage Sharia law taking a foothold in this country, that you go and live in a country governed by it. I did for 18 months, it is not a pleasant experience. As for marriage guidance....lol BTF, they tell you who to marry, you would of loved that as a woman!

 

Oh dear - there wasn't room to list all the nationalities so I decided to focus on what I know as an example.

 

And even more oh dear - if you'd read it properly you would have seen that I was citing the British Marriage Guidance service as an example of arbitration that is not governed by law (but used extensively in this country) - the same way as Sharia intervention in disputes about contracts is arbitration. I was not suggesting that Sharia law be used to settle matrimonial disputes FFS

 

There is no way in a million years that the extreme elements of Sharia law would override our laws - don't believe everything you read in the Dail Heil.

[Gingeletiss]

Of course people gravitate towards people they are familiar with, that's only natural. But this natural action is the polar opposite of multicultralism, it leads to divided groups.Groups need to be encouraged to mix and integrate to avoid mutual misunderstanding. What you have identified is that without multicultralism, unitegrated communites will become established. Multicultralism is the solution to this problem.

 

 

 

There is ethnic and cultural diversity in Wales, Scotland, and Ireland too, we all aspire to be more integrated, and less divided as communites. England isn't alone in this.

 

As for our flag, you are right it used to cause offence to many, simply because it was adopted by extreme authoritarian groups. No 'new' element of society (as you call them) is offended by the Union Flag, however they are rightly offended by the threat of skinhead violence it used to indicate. You seem to be blaming Political Correctness for this, rather than the true root of the problem - racism.

 

There is no problem with communites 'continu[ing] with their own customs', but there is a problem when communites refuse to mix and integrated into British customs. This is what multicultralism is about, integration, not division.

 

As for 'Sharia law', yes a tiny number of w@nkers who haven't integrated do want to impose this. This isn't a failing of multicutralism, it's a failing not to more actively support and assist multicutralism. The fact that some communities aren't integrated is discusting IMO.

 

I think you might misunderstand multicultralism.

 

No, but are entitled to your views on this, however disjointed they appear to be. The fact is, integration hasn't worked, nor will it. Trying to impose 'multiculturalism' onto the indigenous population, was doomed to failure, this will be a steady process, over a couple of generations, then, and only then, will there be no 'English' left. History is littered with these episodes, alas it seems, our time is nigh!

[bridge too far]

No, but are entitled to your views on this, however disjointed they appear to be. The fact is, integration hasn't worked, nor will it. Trying to impose 'multiculturalism' onto the indigenous population, was doomed to failure, this will be a steady process, over a couple of generations, then, and only then, will there be no 'English' left. History is littered with these episodes, alas it seems, our time is nigh!

 

Define 'English'.

 

Our country is populated by people with roots all over the world. My great-grandparents were Irish. Mr TF's family were originally from Belgium. Many English people descend from northern Europe (Angles, Saxons, Normans). We gave refuge to the Hugenots from France and the Jews from eastern Europe.

 

That's what's so great about this country - it's a wonderful mix.

[View From The Top]

I would suggest, that before you encourage Sharia law taking a foothold in this country, that you go and live in a country governed by it. I did for 18 months, it is not a pleasant experience. As for marriage guidance....lol BTF, they tell you who to marry, you would of loved that as a woman!

 

You do know, of course, that Sharia courts have existed in England for at least 200 years and that those courts deal with issues of property and marriage and even then do not supersede UK or EU law?

 

I work in the heart of the Black Country and many of the Muslim divorces (often women who married someone from "back home" and then realise that they have nowt in common) are settled in such courts before going to the "legal" courts to be rubber stamped? I often have a chat with one of the clerics who arbitrates on cases. Nice guy. Very bright with the thickest yam yam accent on the planet!

 

Apart from some absolute extremist nutters who dream about black flags over Buck' House, and those brain dead folk who read about it and actually believe it could happen, Muslims except how the system works.

 

There are, of course, Jewish courts in the UK that work in the same way.

 

If for one minute they changed the UK law to say that Sharia superseded UK sovereign law I'd be on the barricades myself.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Did any other others on here passing through Kings Cross yesterday catch a glimpse of those three EDL 'activists'? I did chuckle to myself when, as they were singing, "He was only a poor little Muzzie" they were confronted by some Asian TFL workers and the brain dead idiots soon shut their mouths and put their little England flag away. If that is multiculturalism failing then Cameron needs to get a new dictionary. As I said to my brother, if that is the scurge of the right in this country, then we have nothing to worry about.

[tpbury]

You do know, of course, that Sharia courts have existed in England for at least 200 years and that those courts deal with issues of property and marriage and even then do not supersede UK or EU law?

 

I work in the heart of the Black Country and many of the Muslim divorces (often women who married someone from "back home" and then realise that they have nowt in common) are settled in such courts before going to the "legal" courts to be rubber stamped? I often have a chat with one of the clerics who arbitrates on cases. Nice guy. Very bright with the thickest yam yam accent on the planet!

 

Apart from some absolute extremist nutters who dream about black flags over Buck' House, and those brain dead folk who read about it and actually believe it could happen, Muslims except how the system works.

 

There are, of course, Jewish courts in the UK that work in the same way.

 

If for one minute they changed the UK law to say that Sharia superseded UK sovereign law I'd be on the barricades myself.

 

Good post, not least for spelling supersede properly.

 

Multiculturalism will not be televised - it will happen on the collective iphone in Uganda. Multiculturalism will not need the sponsorship of **** weed premiers, it will be defined by call centres in Korea and distribution centres in Argentina. Multiculturalism will not be televised, it will happen each time you choose a social networking site. Multicuturalism is a cult and it is here til the electricity runs out.