Football Supporters Federation - Safe standing petition

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Sorry if done already but couldn't see it. Appears that the authorities still don't want it but are less strongly opposed than in recent years.

 

Can be accessed here: http://www.fsf.org.uk/petitions/safestanding.php

 

Guardian blog on the issue: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2011/mar/23/football-supporters-standing-zones-hillsborough

[Griffo]

Please please please please please.

[Spudders]

ha, I like the stat in the guardian report saying that last year 31 people injured thmselves due to falling off their seats! I've injured myself on my seat whilst jumping up & down after scoring, but how do people fall off their seats!

 

 

"Acknowledging that: "Overall most injuries [are] minor", the FLA figures show that last season 419 injuries were sustained from trips, slips and falls, 108 were people hit with the ball, and 31 people fell off their seats or another object. Taylor would have given profound thanks for the figure of only four people sustaining a crush, from a total attendance in the season of 34,564,307 – 0.00001% "

[saint_bert]

Is done safely and properly in Germany. I would say the majority want to stand. Would that be the general concenssus? The authorties should make this happen!

[benjii]

The seating at Selhurst Park is lethal.

[Crab Lungs]

If it was introduced at St. Mary's in the not too distance future, where would it be? I'm assuming the Northam would be the most likely converted? Also, how would you gauge a safe capacity for standing? What would be the likely increase of SMS's capacity? Just wondered... someone might be interested in speculating my above questions!?

[sad saints fan]

Filled in the petition. Now lets have terracing back. I do miss "knees up mother Brown" although I think it might do me some permanent damage now.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

If it was introduced at St. Mary's in the not too distance future, where would it be? I'm assuming the Northam would be the most likely converted? Also, how would you gauge a safe capacity for standing? What would be the likely increase of SMS's capacity? Just wondered... someone might be interested in speculating my above questions!?

 

I read somewhere that a safe standing area could increase capacity by 80% e.g. 180 could stand in the space previously taken up by 100. On this basis at SMS you could easily get capacity up to the high 30s by introducing safe standing to the lower halves of the Chapel and Northam.

[haddock22]

won't happen

[Ken Tone]

Is done safely and properly in Germany. I would say the majority want to stand. Would that be the general concenssus? The authorties should make this happen!

 

a) This just won't happen

 

b) No, I very much doubt that the majority wants to stand.

 

Personally although I used to stand back in the day I would not want to be on a terrace now. I would be quite happy for an area of the ground to be terracing for what I'm pretty sure is the minority who do want to stand. What is crazy is standing in seated areas, which will be why some supprters were injured falling off seats. The last away league game I went to I found that not only was everyone standing throughout but they were standing on the seats. My son couldn't see a thing and it was neither safe nor comfortable. I haven't been to an 'ordinary' away game since.(Have managed a few special occasions!) I would go regularly again however if I knew that the standers were separate and I could buy a seat knowing I'd see the game from a seat. But see (a) again. Politically it just won't happen.

[fish fingers]

won't happen

 

Not with that attitude haddock chops

[Sour Mash]

a) This just won't happen

 

b) No, I very much doubt that the majority wants to stand.

 

Personally although I used to stand back in the day I would not want to be on a terrace now. I would be quite happy for an area of the ground to be terracing for what I'm pretty sure is the minority who do want to stand. What is crazy is standing in seated areas, which will be why some supprters were injured falling off seats. The last away league game I went to I found that not only was everyone standing throughout but they were standing on the seats. My son couldn't see a thing and it was neither safe nor comfortable. I haven't been to an 'ordinary' away game since.(Have managed a few special occasions!) I would go regularly again however if I knew that the standers were separate and I could buy a seat knowing I'd see the game from a seat. But see (a) again. Politically it just won't happen.

 

It depends what you mean by whether the majority wants to stand. Are you talking about Saints fans here? Or supporters in general? Fans at home games or away? If you'd been at the game last night, you'd have seen 3,000 Saints fans perfectly happily standing for the home game, no-one can tell me it doesn't make a difference to the support given to the team. Look at the away support of any decently support Prem team. Those who prefer to sit at games (particularly away games) should be campaigining for this more than anyone, as they should benefit the most, with less problems of restricited views.

 

Out of interest, why are you certain it won't happen? I know it would be a long, slog to get it through and it's not the sort of thing are nanny state government are particularly keen on, but its certainly got to be worth a decent effort.

[forever a red and white]

Why can't we have standing in seated areas? surely that will remove some of the dangers and concerns

[Ken Tone]

It depends what you mean by whether the majority wants to stand. Are you talking about Saints fans here? Or supporters in general? Fans at home games or away? If you'd been at the game last night, you'd have seen 3,000 Saints fans perfectly happily standing for the home game, no-one can tell me it doesn't make a difference to the support given to the team. Look at the away support of any decently support Prem team. Those who prefer to sit at games (particularly away games) should be campaigining for this more than anyone, as they should benefit the most, with less problems of restricited views.

 

Out of interest, why are you certain it won't happen? I know it would be a long, slog to get it through and it's not the sort of thing are nanny state government are particularly keen on, but its certainly got to be worth a decent effort.

 

No minister or indeed government will do this. If they did, the first injury or the first bit of trouble and it would be political suicide for them. The media would crucify them.

[dune]

It'll never happen. Those days are gone for good.

[Jeff Le Taxi]

Anyone know Corteses stance on this? i know Lowe was pro safe standing, I am too for that matter.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Come 'ere, there's more:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/23/standing-terraces-campaign-tour-grounds

[Andy_Porter]

Would love to see this happen, although just can't see it happening with the Hillsborough lobby around - just won't happen.

[Sour Mash]

No minister or indeed government will do this. If they did, the first injury or the first bit of trouble and it would be political suicide for them. The media would crucify them.

 

Really? There would be as much chance of trouble as there is now. Have you seen what safe standing actually looks like? They would still be in modern, well managed stadiums, covered in CCTV etc, the same things that stop trouble in seating. Not to forget there is still terracing in use all over the country. Haven't seen too many problems at Peterborough this year. I haven't sat down at a game for years, same goes for a lot of the lads I go to games with, why not ensure it's done in a properly managed way?

[Griffo]

This is what the safe standing areas look like close up.

 

 

Borussia's safe standing area. Holds 25,000.

 

[LGTL]

What a fantastic stadium that is.

[Griffo]

What a fantastic stadium that is.

 

I'd love to go there one day.

[The9]

As someone who wrote my University dissertation on the Policing of Football Hooliganism and read the Taylor Report cover to cover about 4 times as part of that research, I'm still p1s5ed off that the report has always been held up as an advocate of all seaters - it indicated a lack of crowd control was the major contributing factor, and that all-seaters were not the only solution.

 

It was merely the document used as a basis for pushing through all-seaters by the authorities, and readily accepted by bigger clubs who were able to hike prices and shift their audiences to the middle classes due to the higher prices, more comfortable arenas, and increased interest post Italia '90.

 

Clubs had already more than acceptably reacted to Hillsborough by introducing ticketing for all terraces and reducing capacity to safe levels in the 2 years before the unnecessary all-seater rules were mandated. All that was required was to insist these lower attendances and ticketing arrangements were maintained. The real tragedy is that there was enough room for everyone at Hillsborough, just not in the central enclosure directly in front of the gates which were opened on Leppings Lane.

 

The safety of standing is not determined by the standard of football on the pitch, yet the current regulations make this the case. Standing is apparently "safer" in League One and below, where it is permitted. And don't tell me those grounds don't ever fill their terraces... so how is that any different to having standing in the top divisions ?

 

As you might guess, I'm in favour of standing. The Hillsborough lobby no longer seem to have their iron vice-grip on the agenda (thankfully, there's little logic in their complaints). But if anyone resists this change now I'm expecting it to be the clubs who decide not to redevelop standing areas due to cost.

 

But at least let's have the legal right for them to make that decision.

[sandwichsaint]

Germans seem to have got this safe standing thing down to a tee. My nipper told me last night (so can't verify the HP) that the Bundisliga is averaging over 40k per game this season - an awesome stat. And the two connected reasons are surely 'safe standing areas' and lower ticket prices. Looking on a club website a couple of months back (coincidently to the picture above I think it was Dortmund I was looking at) and match tickets range from about 70 E's to 7 E's - you can stand in areas of that terrace in the picture above for £7 for a Prem league game!

 

Makes £23 to watch 3rd division football in a half empty stadium look a bit steep in comparison, but we come nowhere near their differentials in the range of tickets and prices available. Dortmund's top ticket is worth 10 times its cheapest and they fill their stadium - at Saints the top ticket costs less than twice the price of the cheapest (or alternatively the minimum price to watch Saints is more than half the price of the top ticket). I know a lot of people want to preserve the value of their ST etc but I really don't see why Saints can't market their spare 8k-10k seats per game more aggressively?

[Sour Mash]

As someone who wrote my University dissertation on the Policing of Football Hooliganism and read the Taylor Report cover to cover about 4 times as part of that research, I'm still p1s5ed off that the report has always been held up as an advocate of all seaters - it indicated a lack of crowd control was the major contributing factor, and that all-seaters were not the only solution.

 

It was merely the document used as a basis for pushing through all-seaters by the authorities, and readily accepted by bigger clubs who were able to hike prices and shift their audiences to the middle classes due to the higher prices, more comfortable arenas, and increased interest post Italia '90.

 

Clubs had already more than acceptably reacted to Hillsborough by introducing ticketing for all terraces and reducing capacity to safe levels in the 2 years before the unnecessary all-seater rules were mandated. All that was required was to insist these lower attendances and ticketing arrangements were maintained. The real tragedy is that there was enough room for everyone at Hillsborough, just not in the central enclosure directly in front of the gates which were opened on Leppings Lane.

 

The safety of standing is not determined by the standard of football on the pitch, yet the current regulations make this the case. Standing is apparently "safer" in League One and below, where it is permitted. And don't tell me those grounds don't ever fill their terraces... so how is that any different to having standing in the top divisions ?

 

As you might guess, I'm in favour of standing. The Hillsborough lobby no longer seem to have their iron vice-grip on the agenda (thankfully, there's little logic in their complaints). But if anyone resists this change now I'm expecting it to be the clubs who decide not to redevelop standing areas due to cost.

 

But at least let's have the legal right for them to make that decision.

 

Excellent post.

[Super_Uwe]

This is what the safe standing areas look like close up.

 

 

Borussia's safe standing area. Holds 25,000.

 

 

Those pictures sum up exactly why this could work. These stands are not just a free-for-all, they are allocated spaces which can be controlled in exactly the same way as all-seater stadia are today. I visited the old Olympiastadion in Munich before the AllianzArena was opened up and was amazed at how much space each individual place had.

 

I really would like to see standing areas re-introduced, but it would appear that the whole issue is very political. I am rather at a loss as to why the Premier League are so against it; the argument used yesterday was that more women and children have been attracted to watch games and that seating is always safer than standing. But no-one is asking for entire grounds to be changed back, it is simply to give people who want to be more vocal in their support the opportunity to stand and do so.

[jasoneuelllfanclub]

Partial standing at st mary's would be awesome. I can imagine turning the whole of the northam end into a standing zone for home fans. The atmoshpere would be amazing. I personally wouldnt stand as I suffer from a bad back but I would love to see SMS have a standing Kop end. I grew up watching saints in the lower milton road end and the old family centre. Those were the good old days.

[Saint_clark]

I really, really hope we can get the Northam as a standing area.

The away fans will HAVE to be moved then, though.

[Ken Tone]

Really? There would be as much chance of trouble as there is now. Have you seen what safe standing actually looks like? They would still be in modern, well managed stadiums, covered in CCTV etc, the same things that stop trouble in seating. Not to forget there is still terracing in use all over the country. Haven't seen too many problems at Peterborough this year. I haven't sat down at a game for years, same goes for a lot of the lads I go to games with, why not ensure it's done in a properly managed way?

 

You appear to be confusing fact with politics and the media, and with all due respect you have not really taken in what I said.

 

I did not say that there would be any more chance of trouble in a 'safe' standing area than in a 'safe' seated area, which is how you seem to have interpreted my post. What I'm saying is that at the first bit of trouble or the first injury in a standing area (or actually even anywhere in a ground that has standing) the media would have a field day. No individual minister, nor government collectively, will take that risk of political suicide. Why should they?

There is no incentive for them to do so.

 

There are no votes in this. However many people sign such a petition, and it won't be all that many IMO, they will be hugely outnumbered by the vast majority of voters who haven't ever even been to a game and see all football fans as thugs, and many of whom would cheerfully vote to ban all professional matches, or to prevent all away fans from attending .... something we came perilously close to in Margaret Thatcher's day.

[Sour Mash]

You appear to be confusing fact with politics and the media, and with all due respect you have not really taken in what I said.

 

I did not say that there would be any more chance of trouble in a 'safe' standing area than in a 'safe' seated area, which is how you seem to have interpreted my post. What I'm saying is that at the first bit of trouble or the first injury in a standing area (or actually even anywhere in a ground that has standing) the media would have a field day. No individual minister, nor government collectively, will take that risk of political suicide. Why should they?

There is no incentive for them to do so.

 

There are no votes in this. However many people sign such a petition, and it won't be all that many IMO, they will be hugely outnumbered by the vast majority of voters who haven't ever even been to a game and see all football fans as thugs, and many of whom would cheerfully vote to ban all professional matches, or to prevent all away fans from attending .... something we came perilously close to in Margaret Thatcher's day.

 

Yes, I fully understood your point, but maybe I didn't address it directly in my reply. The majority of members of the general public couldn't care either way, as long as there aren't major riots etc, it would pass under the radar. I think most politicians are savvy enough to know that major disorder in and around football grounds is pretty much a thing of the past. They are also aware how big a part of this country's social fabric football can and does play. A sustained and well organised campaign does have a chance of succeeding. Of course there are plenty of barriers and the old "fear of hooliganism" will be one of those, but that is not enough in my eyes to just say "it looks unlikely, so don't bother", it may be unlikely, but its certainly not impossible.

[once_bitterne]

The Premier League are opposed to this. (rightly in my opinion)

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/12830836.stm

[Ken Tone]

Yes, I fully understood your point, but maybe I didn't address it directly in my reply. The majority of members of the general public couldn't care either way, as long as there aren't major riots etc, it would pass under the radar. I think most politicians are savvy enough to know that major disorder in and around football grounds is pretty much a thing of the past. They are also aware how big a part of this country's social fabric football can and does play. A sustained and well organised campaign does have a chance of succeeding. Of course there are plenty of barriers and the old "fear of hooliganism" will be one of those, but that is not enough in my eyes to just say "it looks unlikely, so don't bother", it may be unlikely, but its certainly not impossible.

 

Google "football hooliganism 2010"

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=football+hooliganism+2010&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=CGCLTaHcA5GbhQf2hdm4Dg

There is a long list of media stories about hooliganism only last year. I've been to going to football regularly since the early 70's. I know things have changed dramatically since then, but like I said media and facts are not the same. The non-fan public's perception of football is what is shown on those links. And they are the majority of the voters in any election.

[Sour Mash]

Google "football hooliganism 2010"

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=football+hooliganism+2010&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=CGCLTaHcA5GbhQf2hdm4Dg

There is a long list of media stories about hooliganism only last year. I've been to going to football regularly since the early 70's. I know things have changed dramatically since then, but like I said media and facts are not the same. The non-fan public's perception of football is what is shown on those links. And they are the majority of the voters in any election.

 

I don't think that is the public's perception of what football fans are like these days at all. Look at how many ads, media bits and pieces attach themselves to the game. It's popular and mainstream (unforunately). I work in as "normal" an office as possible and I've never heard or seen anyone refer to football fans in that way, most people with a bit of a brain and a basic grip on reality realise it is a very out-dated image. Guess when it comes to discussing "perception" it will always just be a matter of opinion, so we may as well leave it there.

[Sour Mash]

Google "football hooliganism 2010"

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=football+hooliganism+2010&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=CGCLTaHcA5GbhQf2hdm4Dg

There is a long list of media stories about hooliganism only last year. I've been to going to football regularly since the early 70's. I know things have changed dramatically since then, but like I said media and facts are not the same. The non-fan public's perception of football is what is shown on those links. And they are the majority of the voters in any election.

 

Oh and do you think that a decision to allow safe-standing would lose any party or politician one single vote? Do you seriously think anyone would change your vote on that basis? Anyone not involved in football wouldn't give a flying f**k!

[Sour Mash]

The Premier League are opposed to this. (rightly in my opinion)

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/12830836.stm

 

That's hardly a surprise is it! And why "rightly in your opinion"?

[dune]

I really, really hope we can get the Northam as a standing area.

The away fans will HAVE to be moved then, though.

 

I'd have thought it'd be too steep even with the cattle market design in the pic.

 

To be honest I can't see attraction of the German model - it's no different to standing in the Northam.

[The9]

That's hardly a surprise is it! And why "rightly in your opinion"?

 

I'm assuming it's because he thinks money is good no matter what ? I can't see any other arguments against safe standing other than the cost of implementation - and even that could be offset by being able to get more people into the ground than an all-seater at (inevitably) the same price - or worse, a "more expensive limited edition" price.

[dubai_phil]

Lol

 

Would be good if it could be re-introduced, but it won't. It has become too easy for clubs to manage the hooligan element with CCTV seat numbers and stewards.

 

The PL will oppose it as they would have to decrease prices and only a few clubs would continue to get extra fans - Wigan - safe standing - lol would add about 10% to an already empty stadium

 

Had to laugh at the Stadium announcer at Charlton, in a mousy quiet voice saying - attention Southampton fans will you please sit down. Yeah like THAt was gonna work

 

But, the point is by the end of that game I was knackered, and more to the point fit young & healthy future son in law Spuds fan was ALSO knackered. The back ached, the knees hurt...

 

Sure it made a great atmosphere but I'm way too old for all that now, which begs the question how would you implement it at SMS, from a stewarding perspective you would want to keep safe standing AWAY from the opposition fans, also it would mean a whole end (and possibly the corners) would have to stand or other seated fans wouldn't see feck all.

 

I think it has a place in football and I enjoyed it Tuesday. Don't think it will happen though

[forever a red and white]

Thing is though, if your the person who decides to let safe standing back and another accident happens... who would want to be partly responsible for that. There could easily be another disaster and the question would be why was it ever allowed to happen.

 

Sure it has been proved to work, and the idea would be more fun than sitting at games certainly, but more often than not we do get to stand in seated areas at away games from my own experience and that has been just fine.

[Sour Mash]

Thing is though, if your the person who decides to let safe standing back and another accident happens... who would want to be partly responsible for that. There could easily be another disaster and the question would be why was it ever allowed to happen.

 

Where on earth do you get that from? I assume you have some well balanced evidence and substantiation for that statement and it isn't simply wild and pointless speculation?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I'd have thought it'd be too steep even with the cattle market design in the pic.

 

To be honest I can't see attraction of the German model - it's no different to standing in the Northam.

 

The difference being that you don't have a ruddy seat to bang your shins on, no one behind you moaning at you to sit down plus as long as you and your mates can get tickets in the same area you can stand next to who please. Obviously you also don't have a steward telling you to sit down every five minutes.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Thing is though, if your the person who decides to let safe standing back and another accident happens... who would want to be partly responsible for that. There could easily be another disaster and the question would be why was it ever allowed to happen.

 

The Taylor Report was quite clear - standing itself wasn't the cause of the Hillsborough tragedy it was dreadful crowd management. If there could "easily be another disaster" then how come we don't hear about injuries and crushes at German football matches all the time?

 

Sure it has been proved to work, and the idea would be more fun than sitting at games certainly, but more often than not we do get to stand in seated areas at away games from my own experience and that has been just fine.

 

Standing in seated areas is less safe than standing in standing areas - there are no barriers to prevent people falling forwards other than shin high seats and other people. Plus you have very little freedom of movement and are unless you buy your tickets at the same time as a friend you're unlikely to be located next to them. Further standing in seated areas is a problem for those who prefer to sit.