'Cutting it in the Premiership'...

[Legod Third Coming]

Last Tuesday I spent the evening in Liverpool and got chatting to a few locals.

 

From what I could understand (I did a lot of nodding), the lads there didn't think Rickie would 'cut it' in the Premiership - I sent them a little note pointing out that he has currently scored more than the entire Liverpool and United squads on Tuesday morning...

 

But time and again people write-off footballers as only fit for a certain 'level' and those players then go on to prove themselves above the level they're fit for. At least competitively. Players like Grant Holt, for example.

 

It supports my view that actually until you get to superstar level (Torres, Tevez, Fabregas, Balotelli, RVP, Aguerro) the difference between top Championship players and the Premiership is quite slim.

 

So looking through the current first team that played on Sunday - is there anyone who really simply cannot cut it this season?

 

I don't think so. You?

[The Kraken]

Depends what the objective is really.

[Legod Third Coming]

Depends what the objective is really.

 

Let's imagine it is to be 'competitive'. And (although my ambition is higher) let's assume competitive means finishing 14th and picking up the MASSIVE TV rights deal next year.

[The Kraken]

OK. I'd suggest Puncheon isn't good enough for that. I'd suggest Rodriguez on the left wing isn't good enough for that. I'd suggest our central defensive duo aren't good enough for that (at best one of them with a more capable new signing, preferably 2 new signings). And I'd suggest JWP needs to be nurtured, and should probably lose his starting place to Steven Davis (as he surely will). Oh, and Kelvin Davis too, I don't think he's up to it.

[RedSolo]

I think its a bit early to start cutting the majority of the players out of the squad before they've even had a chance to prove themselves. Yes there are some players like Guly, that people dislike for various reasons, but they can do a job. They are useful players to have to give a bit more added squad depth, people shouldn't be expecting a 25 man squad of Ronaldo's.

[The Kraken]

I think its a bit early to start cutting the majority of the players out of the squad before they've even had a chance to prove themselves. Yes there are some players like Guly, that people dislike for various reasons, but they can do a job. They are useful players to have to give a bit more added squad depth, people shouldn't be expecting a 25 man squad of Ronaldo's.

 

Or we could go by the opinion of the manager instead, who has openly stated a need to replace certain of the positions listed? Might be a good place to start.

[Saint Charlie]

I would say of our starting XI from Sunday all of them are good enough to play in the Prem - of course some are better than others but playing in the right team, as individuals I don't think we are carrying anyone from Sundays team. If Puncheon or Guly played for another Prem team I don't think they would stand out as being awful.

 

The current issue is that beyond probably 14 players there is a lack of depth, and we could do with a couple of prominent players, one at the back and one out wide. That would improve the team, but the current individuals played the best footy in the Championship and I have faith they will all hold their own this season.

 

The team as a whole will be improved by additions however, although this is obvious.

[This Charming Man]

I can see Fox being a weak link for us. No real pace and prone to the odd error.

[Golac's Iron Gonads]

I think you could just about argue that in every position we don't field the weakest player playing that position in the premier league. But I do think Kelvin comes close, I feel a bastard saying that as he's done a good job for us.

[doddisalegend]

I can see Fox being a weak link for us. No real pace and prone to the odd error.

 

This ^ generally don't think to many of our players are to far off being able to do a job in the PL but Fox always makes me nervous in defence.

Edited 22 August, 2012 by doddisalegend

[Ian the Red]

Out of those that played on Sunday, these will be our weak links: Kelvin, Jos, Jose, Puncheon, Possibly Fox and Guly. If we had one quality centre back then maybe Jos or Jose would do.

[Turkish]

I can see Fox being a weak link for us. No real pace and prone to the odd error.

 

He does also have premier league class tattoos and sunbed tan so I think he's got plenty to offer.

[Brussels Saint]

I think the key is who in our squad is ideally a PL first 11 level & who is a backup player (i.e. can cut it at PL level, but may be considered a weakness)

 

As such I would say the following are more squad than first 11 - Davis, Fox, Fonveld (one or the other), Punch, Guly, Richardson, Shaw, Stephens, Sharp, Gazz, Chambers

 

I'm excluding Hammond, Chaplow, SDR, Seabourne & Butterfield who realistically seem unlikely to be able to cut it.

 

As such that leaves a group of 1st 11 players:

 

GK: ?

RB: Clyne

LB: ?

CB: Hooite

M: Lallana, JWP, Davis, Cork, Morgan

F: Lambert, Lee, J-Rod

 

You could argue therefore we need 1x GK, 1x LB, 1x CB & one forward (as J-Rods best position is probably the same as Lambert) based on the 433 we play.

 

As such I think this is what we will sign before the transfer window closes.

[This Charming Man]

He does also have premier league class tattoos and sunbed tan so I think he's got plenty to offer.

 

He does also wear those ridiculous caps that every footballer has glued to their head these days.

[The Kraken]

He does also wear those ridiculous caps that every footballer has glued to their head these days.

 

That must be against Premier League rules, surely?

[Turkish]

That must be against Premier League rules, surely?

 

He's not real premier league class until he's been on skysports getting off the team bus and walking to the changing rooms wearing a club track suit and the biggest pair of headphones on the market.

[Thedelldays]

He's not real premier league class until he's been on skysports getting off the team bus and walking to the changing rooms wearing a club track suit and the biggest pair of headphones on the market.

haha...just screams of arrogance, rudeness and of course, Premier league.

[david in sweden]

 

.........So looking through the current first team that played on Sunday - is there anyone who really simply cannot cut it this season?

 

of the team that played on Sunday ......without trying to be " over-critical.." .

 

I'm not criticising Kelvin (per se)...(but I thought he was a bit more nervous than most of the others)...he'll be OK , but I really want us to sign another keeper as cover / competition.

 

I forsee problems with Fonte... and maybe Fox, perhaps also Puncheon (though I thought he did as well as anyone... on the day).

Edited 22 August, 2012 by david in sweden

[eurosaint]

Individually, I don't think that we are even close to the top level BUT with a strong team ethic, confidence, motivation and application (all of the qualities that Nigel constantly harps on about!) I reckon that we can just about hold our own in the league !

I'd love to see Rickie ram the words of his birth city brethren down their throats and teach them that zillions spent on brutes like Andy Carroll is not the only way to create a winning formula !!

[This Charming Man]

That must be against Premier League rules, surely?

 

Only worn whilst driving into the training complex, on a beach, or whilst sat in the stands recovering from injury/not being good enough to make the bench.

[This Charming Man]

 

 

[Turkish]

Do you remember when a lot of the helmets like Ashley Cole started wearing Von Dutch gear and all the fashion victims went out and bought it, before they all realised it was sh*t and they looked like tw*ts.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The OP makes a very valid point when he points out the difficulty of pigeonholing players neatly into this, or that, level of the game. I can also wholeheartedly agree that the vast gulf in class that supposedly exists between the top of one division, and the nether regions of the next, is equally hard to pin down with any degree of certainty. Having said all that - just for fun - if we are to divide our senior players into wheat and Premier League chaff, then this is how I see it - for the moment anyway.

 

Potentially good enough to play regularly in the Premier League:

Lallana , Lambert , Schneiderlin , Lee , Rodriguez , Cork , Hooiveld , Clyne , Fonte , S Davis.

 

Borderline cases I reckon:

K Davis , Sharp , Richardson , Puncheon , Fox.

 

Probably not up to it methinks:

Guly , Chaplow , Hammond , Seabourne , Butterfield , De Ridder.

 

NB - Needless to say the above is more a fans 'gut feeling' rather than a scientifically accurate prediction based on observed (all of one games worth) of evidence !

Too early to say with the youngsters and Gazzaniga so I will omit any grossly premature guesswork re their potential this season. Naturally as the season progresses players will move between the above divisions as some exceed expectations, while others disappoint.

[dubai_phil]

Methinks Guly will be good enough.

 

Just have to find his best position.

 

I reserve judgement as to whether that is RM, in the hole or on the bench

[alpine_saint]

Fox.

 

That header for their third was schoolboy stuff.

[St Lej]

Fox.

 

That header for their third was schoolboy stuff.

 

This. Not gonna write him off just yet but that was an absolutely woeful header, would have put the team in trouble at any level of the game

[Saint Mark]

He's not real premier league class until he's been on skysports getting off the team bus and walking to the changing rooms wearing a club track suit and the biggest pair of headphones on the market.

 

Exactly this, why not just use the normal ones you get with your iPhone. I must also add the washbag/bootbag that seems to be another must have item, good for hair products and moisturising creams for the modern man!

[david in sweden]

The OP makes a very valid point when he points out the difficulty of pigeonholing players neatly into this, or that, level of the game. I can also wholeheartedly agree that the vast gulf in class that supposedly exists between the top of one division, and the nether regions of the next, is equally hard to pin down with any degree of certainty. Having said all that - just for fun - if we are to divide our senior players into wheat and Premier League chaff, then this is how I see it - for the moment anyway. .

 

 

I'd go along with 99% of that CHAPEL.. except I think there is more mileage in Guly than some people think.

 

Some players play better in good company, and if Guly has anything at all in him , we may see it this season.

 

Of course at 30, in this League, his shelf life is a lot shorter than many others, but we may be pleasantly surprised with some of his performances.

[Window Cleaner]

Now to me, it looked as if we just didn't last the distance on Sunday. We found out to our cost, as did Reading last night, competing at this level means hacking it with the mega billionire clubs for 95 minutes, not 60 or 70, cos what they do is grind you down and then throw on a couple of class players in the last 15/20 minutes to finish you off. Fox's clearance ws just a tired gesture from a player that had been under the cosh for 80+ minutes, could have been anyone.

Edited 23 August, 2012 by Window Cleaner

[This Charming Man]

Now to me, it looked as if we just didn't last the distance on Sunday. We found out to our cost, as did Reading last night, competing at this level means hacking it with the mega billionire clubs for 95 minutes, not 60 or 70, cos what they do is grind you down and then throw on a couple of class players in the last 15/20 minutes to finish you off. Fox's clearance ws just a tired gesture from a player that had been under the cosh for 80+ minutes, could have been anyone.

 

I agree with needing to be 100% for the entire game, one of the main things that sets the top sides apart is their ability to do that. The amount of games Man City and Man Utd win in the last 15 minutes is ridiculous. That's what makes a truly great side, the ability to keep going.

 

Not getting on Fox's back or anything but it was a woeful header. It doesn't matter how tired you are, the reason you train 5 days a week is so you don't make errors like that. It should be instinct for him to header it anywhere other than where he did.

 

I'd get b0ll0cked at Sunday League level for a header like that, it was poor and there's no excuses.

[Window Cleaner]

I agree with needing to be 100% for the entire game, one of the main things that sets the top sides apart is their ability to do that. The amount of games Man City and Man Utd win in the last 15 minutes is ridiculous. That's what makes a truly great side, the ability to keep going.

 

Not getting on Fox's back or anything but it was a woeful header. It doesn't matter how tired you are, the reason you train 5 days a week is so you don't make errors like that. It should be instinct for him to header it anywhere other than where he did.

 

I'd get b0ll0cked at Sunday League level for a header like that, it was poor and there's no excuses.

 

Only player on our side to have participated in a stupid international friendly in the week though. If we had a viable alternative he might have been subbed beforehand. Position needs sorting out illico, thanks to Buttner leading us on for 3 months or whatever.

[The9]

Is this whole thread just set up so I can say "Lambert" ? Cos I'm not gonna. I just think we have players better equipped than him, there will be some matches when his strengths are exactly what we need, but others (like Sunday) when we need other people to work for an hour in order to be able to use him.

 

Fox's performance on Sunday was a level below the others, but he was also involved in assisting with our most constructive attacks in the first half.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Fox - unfortunately there are times when you need to rely on players fulfilling their primary role adequately, especially when not under pressure and Fox completely let his teammates and the supporters down big time with his lovely little header back into the area. Beautiful set-up for Citeh's third - a striker couldn't have placed that ball better. Those kind of errors are the essential difference between a Prem player and a lower league player.

[Gordon Mockles]

Last Tuesday I spent the evening in Liverpool and got chatting to a few locals.

 

From what I could understand (I did a lot of nodding), the lads there didn't think Rickie would 'cut it' in the Premiership - I sent them a little note pointing out that he has currently scored more than the entire Liverpool and United squads on Tuesday morning...

 

But time and again people write-off footballers as only fit for a certain 'level' and those players then go on to prove themselves above the level they're fit for. At least competitively. Players like Grant Holt, for example.

 

It supports my view that actually until you get to superstar level (Torres, Tevez, Fabregas, Balotelli, RVP, Aguerro) the difference between top Championship players and the Premiership is quite slim.

 

So looking through the current first team that played on Sunday - is there anyone who really simply cannot cut it this season?

 

I don't think so. You?

 

 

A lot of pundits are either elitist, ignorant, pretentious or a combination of the three. Many have their own opinion and aren’t influenced by the bright lights and big names unlike Lawrenson, Gray, Sven with his England selection (took Theo, not picked!), etc. All influenced by player reputation. Some of them like Andy Gray practically run around with a semi-lob on when Rooney picks up the ball yet I saw Barnard in one game almost score a hatrick, great 35 yard shot and some incredible saves from the keeper (forget the opposition, sorry), hitting post, bar, etc. One attempt, Barnard was amazing. He shielded the ball in the box from 2 defenders closing in, had literally seconds to shield, control, swivel and rifled a snap shot from nothing into the top corner only for an incredible piece of goal keeping and the ball being tipped wide. Any other game he’d have had a hatrick. This was not picked up and not much said but I can guarantee is was as good a quality a piece of football as any Premier League striker but, sadly, you won’t always get the credit.

 

Happens with clubs too. Southampton were often overlooked in the Premierships days. Matches in which we had been outstanding dropped on MOTD in place of poorer matches with bigger names clubs. That’s just elitism I am afraid and Liverpool fans, as many others including Saints, have pig ignorant fans who haven’t a clue about the game. They’re the same fickle fans that adopted the generic “you’ll get relegated this season” mantra for the duration of our 27/28 rein in the top flight (forgive the stat, can’t remember). Lazy opinions, often borrowed from others or too brainless and knee jerk to form a solid opinion but desperate to be smug and dictatorial.

 

Little do they know. Lambert will be class and off the mark already as soon as he came on the pitch, much like Davis. Lazy opinions, don’t even engage them. Actions speak much louder but be sure to remind them about their transitional season eh?!

[rshephard3]

I can't be bothered to read the whole thread but the stand out for me is Fox I'm afraid. Barely good enough for championship and still not sure why we've signed him-set pieces alone aren't enough.

[VectisSaint]

Only player on our side to have participated in a stupid international friendly in the week though. If we had a viable alternative he might have been subbed beforehand. Position needs sorting out illico, thanks to Buttner leading us on for 3 months or whatever.

 

Davis, S

[mulletsaint]

The OP makes a very valid point when he points out the difficulty of pigeonholing players neatly into this, or that, level of the game. I can also wholeheartedly agree that the vast gulf in class that supposedly exists between the top of one division, and the nether regions of the next, is equally hard to pin down with any degree of certainty. Having said all that - just for fun - if we are to divide our senior players into wheat and Premier League chaff, then this is how I see it - for the moment anyway.

 

Potentially good enough to play regularly in the Premier League:

Lallana , Lambert , Schneiderlin , Lee , Rodriguez , Cork , Hooiveld , Clyne , Fonte , S Davis.

 

Borderline cases I reckon:

K Davis , Sharp , Richardson , Puncheon , Fox.

 

Probably not up to it methinks:

Guly , Chaplow , Hammond , Seabourne , Butterfield , De Ridder.

 

NB - Needless to say the above is more a fans 'gut feeling' rather than a scientifically accurate prediction based on observed (all of one games worth) of evidence !

Too early to say with the youngsters and Gazzaniga so I will omit any grossly premature guesswork re their potential this season. Naturally as the season progresses players will move between the above divisions as some exceed expectations, while others disappoint.

 

Think I'm pretty close to agreeing with you.

 

I do think that while he's not likely to be a regular striker at this level, Sharp will be very important to us this season. Probably a bit above borderline in my opinion.

 

Also I'm one of those that thinks if Guly's played in his favourite position he'd be up in the top bracket. I also don't think you should underestimate the way that Lallana, Lambert and Guly really seem to be on the same wavelength.

[mulletsaint]

Is this whole thread just set up so I can say "Lambert" ? Cos I'm not gonna. I just think we have players better equipped than him, there will be some matches when his strengths are exactly what we need, but others (like Sunday) when we need other people to work for an hour in order to be able to use him.

 

Fox's performance on Sunday was a level below the others, but he was also involved in assisting with our most constructive attacks in the first half.

 

Disagree with that last sentence on a couple of points. Firstly I think Morgan's performance was well below what I was expecting from him. Lazy in covering back at times, regularly out of position and looked about as unfit as any player on the pitch. I know the midfielders do a lot of running about but compare that with how Lallana finished the match. Also still think Fox is being focussed on without taking everything into account. Not enough support down that side, ran himself into the ground and for the header was probably worrying about scoring an OG because of the angle he was running in at, as well as conscious of the player coming in behind him.

[Deano6]

Is this the thread where Fox becomes the scapegoat for the season because of "that header"? Only I want to be able to say "I was there when it all began".

[This Charming Man]

Is this the thread where Fox becomes the scapegoat for the season because of "that header"? Only I want to be able to say "I was there when it all began".

 

He's probably going to be the focal point of my frustration this season.

 

I've always been a Guly fan but I reckon I might give him some sh1t this season as well.

[david in sweden]

Is this the thread where Fox becomes the scapegoat for the season because of "that header"? Only I want to be able to say "I was there when it all began".

 

it's a pity, but he's so good at overlapping and putting in those pinpoint centres.

 

It's the Bridge / Bale left-sided syndrome again. They are good going forward, but not the world's best when it comes to defending.

 

.......which is hardly surprising, as less then 20% of the (human) population is left-handed/footed , so finding a " good one " is much tougher than it seems.

[doddisalegend]

Is this the thread where Fox becomes the scapegoat for the season because of "that header"? Only I want to be able to say "I was there when it all began".

 

Hardly people said he was a liability in defence last season so it's hardly a surprise if they don't think he will make the the step up. With Clyne we really upgraded the RB postion and frankly last season RB was a stronger postion than LB so any upgrade to the LB postion would be very welcome.

[Legod Third Coming]

Hardly people said he was a liability in defence last season so it's hardly a surprise if they don't think he will make the the step up. With Clyne we really upgraded the RB postion and frankly last season RB was a stronger postion than LB so any upgrade to the LB postion would be very welcome.

 

For the record, I made my observations pretty obvious above, that I think the 11 on the pitch and all subs are well up to finishing 14th.

 

However, I was massively impessed by Clyne - not enough to have his babies yet, we've all played at least one blinder, bowled on good over, picked up one stunner, after all...

 

But if Clyne is the real deal after another half dozen games and there is a left back equivalent out there, I would bite your right arm off to get him!

[The9]

Disagree with that last sentence on a couple of points. Firstly I think Morgan's performance was well below what I was expecting from him. Lazy in covering back at times, regularly out of position and looked about as unfit as any player on the pitch. I know the midfielders do a lot of running about but compare that with how Lallana finished the match. Also still think Fox is being focussed on without taking everything into account. Not enough support down that side, ran himself into the ground and for the header was probably worrying about scoring an OG because of the angle he was running in at, as well as conscious of the player coming in behind him.

 

Looking at the stats :

 

Fox's passing percentage was the lowest of all Saints players

He also had more touches of the ball than any other Saints player.

 

From perception :

City attacked down that wing, targeting through balls in behind Fox, which occasionally led to Rodriguez tracking Zabaleta into the box. Which he did pretty well... for a striker.