Work disciplinary..advice?

[bowers-sfc]

Just after a bit of advice until my union rep is back next week...

 

Anyway, Tuesday night, my niece had an accident and hit her head and then started being sick, after phoning NHS 111, they told us to go down A&E. ( my niece is 18 months, my sister is 17, so I'm basically the responsible adult in the house, as my parents are away )

 

I was not going to let my sister go on her own, so off I went. Got back at 4am yesterday. When I got in, I knew I would be in not fit state to start work at half 7. So I emailed my work, explaining what had happened, and said I would be in by 12, and would phone as soon as I was awake.

 

Our procedure is to phone an hour before or after the start of your shift, but obviously breaking my sleep, I would of slept a hell of a lot longer and would of been no point going in.

 

I woke up, missed calls. Voicemails, replys to my email. I phoned work, when I woke up at 10 to say I was going to get ready and come in.

 

Anyway, got to work and was called into a meeting. My absence from work would be going down as AWOL and now face a disciplinary hearing.

 

Where do I stand? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

[Smirking_Saint]

As far as I am concerned you were off 'sick' for the amount of time that you were absent and as far as I can see have made every reasonable effort to let them know the situation, for a start at what time did they reply to the email ? What time did they first try to ring you etc ?

 

What is it you do BTW and does it have safety implications ? I.e heavy machinery, driving, working with energy etc

 

You need to also think about their arguements, for example could you have phoned them at 6 o'clock etc ? Could you have left a voicemail ?

 

Obviously you have not had a disciplinary hearing yet so make sure your union rep is back and you have representation when it happens, also you were not disciplined in the hearing you have already had ?

[hypochondriac]

If it's a first offence and you don't take the Mick regularly then you won't get much.

[Lord Duckhunter]

If it's a first offence and you don't take the Mick regularly then you won't get much.

 

This is the key as far as I'm concerned.

 

Some of my guys quote the rule book all the time, take the **** and generally act like barrack room lawyers for the rest of the team. These people I stick to the letter of the companies policy. Don't ring in at the correct time, no pay treated as AWOL. To me they can't have it both ways,want to tell me what I can and can't make you do, want to do the bare minimum and have no flexibility, then I'll play the same game. Most of my guys are great, they work hard, are flexible and are a credit to the company. These people I would let them take holiday, have care leave or make their time up.

 

Now it maybe that the op is in the second category, but that his manager has a policy to follow. For consistency I would have to investigate every case before making my decision. It was after an investigation that I would treat the decent people fairly and the tossers by the rule book. Managers discretion only applies after every case is investigated and standard letters sent.

[aintforever]

You are better off getting a new job than working for that bunch of c*nts anyway.

[hypochondriac]

This is the key as far as I'm concerned.

 

Some of my guys quote the rule book all the time, take the **** and generally act like barrack room lawyers for the rest of the team. These people I stick to the letter of the companies policy. Don't ring in at the correct time, no pay treated as AWOL. To me they can't have it both ways,want to tell me what I can and can't make you do, want to do the bare minimum and have no flexibility, then I'll play the same game. Most of my guys are great, they work hard, are flexible and are a credit to the company. These people I would let them take holiday, have care leave or make their time up.

 

Now it maybe that the op is in the second category, but that his manager has a policy to follow. For consistency I would have to investigate every case before making my decision. It was after an investigation that I would treat the decent people fairly and the tossers by the rule book. Managers discretion only applies after every case is investigated and standard letters sent.

 

Nothing bad would happen anyway because employers are pretty much screwed nowadays. It's extremely difficult to sack anyone and even if you do it fairly there is still a good chance you would lose at tribunal.

[Viking Warrior]

Sounds like your in the military using the words AWOL .pm offline and I will give you sound advice bowers Its what i do for a living being a senior hr adviser . Based on what you are saying and dependant who your work for they should not be stating you will be facing a disciplinary . They should invite you in etc and speak to you . As I said pm me and I will give you guidance

[EastleighSoulBoy]

B & Q use the term AWOL at least at local branch level.

[derry]

Sounds like your in the military using the words AWOL .pm offline and I will give you sound advice bowers Its what i do for a living being a senior hr adviser . Based on what you are saying and dependant who your work for they should not be stating you will be facing a disciplinary . They should invite you in etc and speak to you . As I said pm me and I will give you guidance

 

Mike, he mentioned a union rep so military is unlikely. Presumably he worked at 0700 the previous day. I submit that to drive would be breaking the law ref tiredness. Secondly if he had been forced in at 0700 and had an accident his company would be liable under health and safety. It sounds like he acted maturely and sensibly in all respects. I suspect when the Union/Lawyers get involved the manager involved will get torn a new one.

[Foxy]

Sounds like your in the military using the words AWOL .pm offline and I will give you sound advice bowers Its what i do for a living being a senior hr adviser . Based on what you are saying and dependant who your work for they should not be stating you will be facing a disciplinary . They should invite you in etc and speak to you . As I said pm me and I will give you guidance

 

Ran this past mrs F, who like my good friend mr Warrior is a senior HR bod, and she's saying much the same. This seems really harsh on the face of it. Most organisations would let you take unpaid time off for a family emergency or even paid compassionate leave.

 

However, what she does add is that she doesn't know the context here - how long youve been there, what has happened previously etc. she suggests you might be best off asking your union regional convener for advice or approaching ACAS who have a confidential helpline as well as taking up VW's offer.

 

The ACAS number is 08457474747 and is free and confidential.

 

Mrs F also says if you feel you'd be happier having the union rep around ahead of the disciplinary it would be normal for the company to delay until he returns from leave.

 

Good luck mate and hope this helps.

[Barry Sanchez]

Just after a bit of advice until my union rep is back next week...

 

Anyway, Tuesday night, my niece had an accident and hit her head and then started being sick, after phoning NHS 111, they told us to go down A&E. ( my niece is 18 months, my sister is 17, so I'm basically the responsible adult in the house, as my parents are away )

 

I was not going to let my sister go on her own, so off I went. Got back at 4am yesterday. When I got in, I knew I would be in not fit state to start work at half 7. So I emailed my work, explaining what had happened, and said I would be in by 12, and would phone as soon as I was awake.

 

Our procedure is to phone an hour before or after the start of your shift, but obviously breaking my sleep, I would of slept a hell of a lot longer and would of been no point going in.

 

I woke up, missed calls. Voicemails, replys to my email. I phoned work, when I woke up at 10 to say I was going to get ready and come in.

 

Anyway, got to work and was called into a meeting. My absence from work would be going down as AWOL and now face a disciplinary hearing.

 

Where do I stand? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Depends on procedure, who do you work for?

A point of contact needs to be set up normally verbally, if there is no 24 hour contact then discretion should be used at all times, management will see sense on this, what AWOL procedure/sickness is there?

AWOL is used by many companies.

 

 

Have you been charged ie letter form by a manager?

More details mate and I may be able to answer a bit more.

[Barry Sanchez]

Ran this past mrs F, who like my good friend mr Warrior is a senior HR bod, and she's saying much the same. This seems really harsh on the face of it. Most organisations would let you take unpaid time off for a family emergency or even paid compassionate leave.

 

However, what she does add is that she doesn't know the context here - how long youve been there, what has happened previously etc. she suggests you might be best off asking your union regional convener for advice or approaching ACAS who have a confidential helpline as well as taking up VW's offer.

 

The ACAS number is 08457474747 and is free and confidential.

 

Mrs F also says if you feel you'd be happier having the union rep around ahead of the disciplinary it would be normal for the company to delay until he returns from leave.

 

Good luck mate and hope this helps.

 

 

HR with the greatest of respect know the terms and conditions to sack employees most of the time, Unions and industrial relations know terms and conditions to save people's positions.

[Viking Warrior]

Barry Sanchez your talking out your backside again re hr . Yes there are some folk like that I admit . There are processes and procedures that need to be followed . I don't know what context bowers has been spoken to but based on what he has said it seems mighty unfair and we are living in a family friendly environment and compassionate leave is an acceptable and common practice . Derry it's been a while since I heard the word AWOL . Any way bowlers give me a pm

 

On a positive note as his company recognises unions . This would suggest that whoever he works for has appropriate policies and procedures in place .

[benjii]

Pretty silly to treat this as a disciplinary matter. It is an unplanned absence and you acted reasonably. Unless they have reasonable grounds to think you are lying then it really shouldn't be seen as a disciplinary issue. They may want to dock your pay for unworked hours, which is fair enough in principle, but a lot of employers wouldn't do that.

 

Is this an absence which, in light of previous absences, takes you over some sort of absence policy threshold triggering an investigation?

 

There's not a lot you can "do". You will have to go along with the process and take advice if you think the outcome is unfair. As others have mentioned ACAS is an impartial service and if you have a union they may be worth speaking to. The "disciplinary meeting" may simply be to investigate the facts - the outcome should not be prejudged and if they have already stated or indicated that disciplinary action is to result then they have more or less rendered it unfair from the outset as they have prejudged the meeting.

[Weston Super Saint]

Just after a bit of advice until my union rep is back next week...

 

Anyway, Tuesday night, my niece had an accident and hit her head and then started being sick, after phoning NHS 111, they told us to go down A&E. ( my niece is 18 months, my sister is 17, so I'm basically the responsible adult in the house, as my parents are away )

 

I was not going to let my sister go on her own, so off I went. Got back at 4am yesterday. When I got in, I knew I would be in not fit state to start work at half 7. So I emailed my work, explaining what had happened, and said I would be in by 12, and would phone as soon as I was awake.

 

Our procedure is to phone an hour before or after the start of your shift, but obviously breaking my sleep, I would of slept a hell of a lot longer and would of been no point going in.

 

I woke up, missed calls. Voicemails, replys to my email. I phoned work, when I woke up at 10 to say I was going to get ready and come in.

 

Anyway, got to work and was called into a meeting. My absence from work would be going down as AWOL and now face a disciplinary hearing.

 

Where do I stand? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

A couple of points here - my two penneth worth!

 

1. You haven't followed the company procedure which is to report the absence by telephone 1 hour before or after the start of your shift - this is a very common term / condition of employment.

2. You reported the absence by email. Why? Is there no-one available to take telephone messages at 04:00? If there isn't and if there is no answer facility, then I would argue that you have acted reasonably by reporting your absence via email - who did you send it to?

3. You went to work! Technically this is lateness rather than absenteeism, however I can see why they would want to call it AWOL, since you arrived after the 1 hour cutoff time for reporting absenteeism. I assume that they will be paying you for hours that you worked and that you did indeed stay and work once you arrived? If this is the case then it could be argued that they have accepted your lateness and it cannot be classed as AWOL. I would also guess that for it to be AWOL, then they would have 'covered' your shift after the 1 hour cutoff time, which again would be stated in your terms and conditions. When you phoned at 10:00 to say you would be getting ready and coming in, they should have informed you that your shift had been covered and that your presence was not required if they were treating this as AWOL!

4. How many missed calls, voicemails and emails did you receive regarding this issue? My advice would be to hang on to these and take a screenshot as evidence. It may sound petty, however if they did take this further, receiving lots of calls, voicemails and emails after you had reported your lateness could be construed as harassment.

5. The devil is in the detail! What exactly have you been invited to attend? You mention a disciplinary hearing, which would suggest a full blown disciplinary which could result in you losing your job. The process to be followed should be that you are invited to an 'investigatory meeting' in the first instance to discover all the facts and then to decide if a disciplinary is appropriate. You mention that you were pulled in to a meeting when you arrived at work. What was discussed during this meeting? Were you given the opportunity to have a witness present with you during this meeting? Were any notes taken during this meeting and if so were you given the opportunity to review these notes and sign them for accuracy? For the record if this meeting is to be classed as the 'investigatory' meeting, there should have been the meeting holder present, plus a witness / note taker accompanying him/her, plus you, plus your witness - or at least the offer of a witness - AND you should have been given no less than 24 hours notice to attend the meeting!

6. A fair bit of information is required in order to give any further advice.

7. Viking, as a registered user, Bowers is unable to PM you!

[Viking Warrior]

Weston . I didn't realise bowers couldn't pm

[Toomer]

If they are going to have a formal meeting with you which could lead to disciplinary action being taken, they must give you this in writing stating that you can have a work colleague or union rep as your witness. If your union rep is unavailable and you wish him to be your witness you are entitled to ask for the meeting date (in writing) to be put back till a time that in exceptable to all parties.

[Lord Duckhunter]

HR with the greatest of respect know the terms and conditions to sack employees most of the time, Unions and industrial relations know terms and conditions to save people's positions.

 

This has to be one of the most erroneous posts ever posted on here. HR are there to ensure that companies act within the law and in a fair and consistent manner. They protect profits by ensuring that people who are sacked have no chance of winning any subsequent tribunal. In my experience if HR OK a sacking its pretty watertight. 9 times out of 10 they'll advise stepping back from dismissal.

[Barry Sanchez]

This has to be one of the most erroneous posts ever posted on here. HR are there to ensure that companies act within the law and in a fair and consistent manner. They protect profits by ensuring that people who are sacked have no chance of winning any subsequent tribunal. In my experience if HR OK a sacking its pretty watertight. 9 times out of 10 they'll advise stepping back from dismissal.

 

So how is it incorrect? They are employed by a company to sack people in short, thats not wrong, you simply did not like my answer, but a truth it is none the less.

If you believe they are watertight as well you are very very naive.

[Barry Sanchez]

Barry Sanchez your talking out your backside again re hr . Yes there are some folk like that I admit . There are processes and procedures that need to be followed . I don't know what context bowers has been spoken to but based on what he has said it seems mighty unfair and we are living in a family friendly environment and compassionate leave is an acceptable and common practice . Derry it's been a while since I heard the word AWOL . Any way bowlers give me a pm

 

On a positive note as his company recognises unions . This would suggest that whoever he works for has appropriate policies and procedures in place .

 

If you have not heard the word AWOL I suggest you need to actually work in an enviroment that uses it, from the railway industry to Kellogg's use it as procedure.

 

Unionised and non Unionised.

[bowers-sfc]

A couple of points here - my two penneth worth!

 

1. You haven't followed the company procedure which is to report the absence by telephone 1 hour before or after the start of your shift - this is a very common term / condition of employment.

2. You reported the absence by email. Why? Is there no-one available to take telephone messages at 04:00? If there isn't and if there is no answer facility, then I would argue that you have acted reasonably by reporting your absence via email - who did you send it to?

3. You went to work! Technically this is lateness rather than absenteeism, however I can see why they would want to call it AWOL, since you arrived after the 1 hour cutoff time for reporting absenteeism. I assume that they will be paying you for hours that you worked and that you did indeed stay and work once you arrived? If this is the case then it could be argued that they have accepted your lateness and it cannot be classed as AWOL. I would also guess that for it to be AWOL, then they would have 'covered' your shift after the 1 hour cutoff time, which again would be stated in your terms and conditions. When you phoned at 10:00 to say you would be getting ready and coming in, they should have informed you that your shift had been covered and that your presence was not required if they were treating this as AWOL!

4. How many missed calls, voicemails and emails did you receive regarding this issue? My advice would be to hang on to these and take a screenshot as evidence. It may sound petty, however if they did take this further, receiving lots of calls, voicemails and emails after you had reported your lateness could be construed as harassment.

5. The devil is in the detail! What exactly have you been invited to attend? You mention a disciplinary hearing, which would suggest a full blown disciplinary which could result in you losing your job. The process to be followed should be that you are invited to an 'investigatory meeting' in the first instance to discover all the facts and then to decide if a disciplinary is appropriate. You mention that you were pulled in to a meeting when you arrived at work. What was discussed during this meeting? Were you given the opportunity to have a witness present with you during this meeting? Were any notes taken during this meeting and if so were you given the opportunity to review these notes and sign them for accuracy? For the record if this meeting is to be classed as the 'investigatory' meeting, there should have been the meeting holder present, plus a witness / note taker accompanying him/her, plus you, plus your witness - or at least the offer of a witness - AND you should have been given no less than 24 hours notice to attend the meeting!

6. A fair bit of information is required in order to give any further advice.

7. Viking, as a registered user, Bowers is unable to PM you!

 

 

Hi Guys, thanks for all the advice! thought id reply to this one, to try give you as much information as possible.

 

1. I have done what I thought was best at the time, taking everything into consideration.

2. Reported my lateness by email, as I work in an office, nobody available between 6pm and 7am. No answer phone available. Sent it to my line manager, and floor manager.

3. This is my main problem, AWOL to me, is not turning up completely. They were fully aware of what had happened, I promised them I would be in, and by 12pm. They did not cover my shift; I went in and completed the rest of my working day. Yes, will be paid for the hours that I did work.

4. 3 missed calls, 1 voicemail, and a reply to my email.

5. I asked my line manager if I could have a word, as I was not happy about AWOL, going down on my record. She then said,’ can you come into this room, we need a meeting about it’, she informed me that I would be able to fight my case in a disciplinary hearing. What happened Tuesday night/Wednesday morning is apparently what triggered the action of a disciplinary. Over the past 6 months, I have been late to work 3 times due to my bus. Never missed it, just general traffic, one accident where a man was killed and I still got in trouble. I’m not bothered if they want to discipline me for that, but what I don’t agree with, is having this happen because a family member needed hospital attention. No opportunity to have a witness, no notes were taken and nothing signed. I have currently refused to sign my return to work form, to confirm my absentness as AWOL. This was not technically the proper investigation/disciplinary hearing.

 

I work for big outsourcing company and am just shocked at the way this has been handled. I know its not really their problem, but nobody has even cared to ask how my niece is or anything. I understand procedures need to be followed, and the consequences if they are not so.

 

But they can use discretion, and common sense needs to be applied in situations like this. Its got to the point, where I’m now taking this personally.

 

Some of the stuff I do is quite sensitive, and if I made one mistake, being tried would not be a good enough reason. What I have tried to explain, is that going to sleep at 4, straight through until around 10, gave me a good unbroken sleep. If I woke up at 7, to phone them and tell them I wont be in or late, I would of slept a hell of a lot longer, and most probably wouldn’t of gone in at all. It seems I should have just taken the whole day off, as I have got the same punishment for coming in for over half the day.

[Weston Super Saint]

Hi Guys, thanks for all the advice! thought id reply to this one, to try give you as much information as possible.

 

1. I have done what I thought was best at the time, taking everything into consideration.

2. Reported my lateness by email, as I work in an office, nobody available between 6pm and 7am. No answer phone available. Sent it to my line manager, and floor manager.

3. This is my main problem, AWOL to me, is not turning up completely. They were fully aware of what had happened, I promised them I would be in, and by 12pm. They did not cover my shift; I went in and completed the rest of my working day. Yes, will be paid for the hours that I did work.

4. 3 missed calls, 1 voicemail, and a reply to my email.

5. I asked my line manager if I could have a word, as I was not happy about AWOL, going down on my record. She then said,’ can you come into this room, we need a meeting about it’, she informed me that I would be able to fight my case in a disciplinary hearing. What happened Tuesday night/Wednesday morning is apparently what triggered the action of a disciplinary. Over the past 6 months, I have been late to work 3 times due to my bus. Never missed it, just general traffic, one accident where a man was killed and I still got in trouble. I’m not bothered if they want to discipline me for that, but what I don’t agree with, is having this happen because a family member needed hospital attention. No opportunity to have a witness, no notes were taken and nothing signed. I have currently refused to sign my return to work form, to confirm my absentness as AWOL. This was not technically the proper investigation/disciplinary hearing.

 

I work for big outsourcing company and am just shocked at the way this has been handled. I know its not really their problem, but nobody has even cared to ask how my niece is or anything. I understand procedures need to be followed, and the consequences if they are not so.

 

But they can use discretion, and common sense needs to be applied in situations like this. Its got to the point, where I’m now taking this personally.

 

Some of the stuff I do is quite sensitive, and if I made one mistake, being tried would not be a good enough reason. What I have tried to explain, is that going to sleep at 4, straight through until around 10, gave me a good unbroken sleep. If I woke up at 7, to phone them and tell them I wont be in or late, I would of slept a hell of a lot longer, and most probably wouldn’t of gone in at all. It seems I should have just taken the whole day off, as I have got the same punishment for coming in for over half the day.

 

I think the answer here is quite simple.

 

Let them carry on with the disciplinary process. If they are taking the first meeting on Tuesday as the 'investigatory' and have decided to follow this up with a 'disciplinary' then they have not followed the required procedures for the whole disciplinary process as you were not given 24 hours notice to attend, nor were you offered the chance to have a witness present = grounds for appeal (personally I wouldn't mention this to them until after the process when you have the right to appeal as it is up to them to make sure they are aware of the process).

 

Secondly, if they then give a disciplinary judgement stating you were AWOL, you can then appeal and argue that technically you were late rather than absent for the day!

 

Finally, the good news is that this will not lead to a dismissal - at worst I would imagine a verbal / written warning, which while not great will ensure you keep your income! If it was me in that position I would be taking the route of 'coaching' to ensure that the rules of lateness / sickness reporting were fully understood [by you] and would be recording this as a note on your file - not a disciplinary warning, merely a warning that could then be produced at subsequent disciplinary hearings should the process not be followed again.

 

I agree with you that they have been a little harsh in not even asking how your niece is, but looking at things from their point of view, your niece is not your dependent, so whilst it is very unfortunate that this has happened - I hope she is better by the way - they will take the stance that it is not your responsibility [harsh, but fair I guess from a legal standpoint].

 

I wouldn't take this personally as you seem to be doing as this will create a pretty bad working environment, however I would bide my time and wait to see what they do next then make a judgement from there as to what steps to take next - who knows, it may end up with no further action and they are just following the process for the sake of following the process!

[Viking Warrior]

Bary you are quite a patronising ****t at time

 

If you have not heard the word AWOL I suggest you need to actually work in an enviroment that uses it, from the railway industry to Kellogg's use it as procedure.

 

Unionised and non Unionised. Im totally aware of the word AWOL . its is word that has its roots stemming back centuries from th military. The common term is unathorised absence> im sure in some industires that AWOL is still used. So please dont accuse me of being thick . . I only assumed that Bowers might be military based as the fulll facts of his employment status were not known at the time. I can assure you I work in an organisation that is unionised , including the marine environment, so get your facts right before suggesting I work in such an environment.

 

Besides my sole intention was to help a fellow listee who needed some guidance re a potential disciplinary situation they found themselves in.

[bowers-sfc]

I think the answer here is quite simple.

 

Let them carry on with the disciplinary process. If they are taking the first meeting on Tuesday as the 'investigatory' and have decided to follow this up with a 'disciplinary' then they have not followed the required procedures for the whole disciplinary process as you were not given 24 hours notice to attend, nor were you offered the chance to have a witness present = grounds for appeal (personally I wouldn't mention this to them until after the process when you have the right to appeal as it is up to them to make sure they are aware of the process).

 

Secondly, if they then give a disciplinary judgement stating you were AWOL, you can then appeal and argue that technically you were late rather than absent for the day!

 

Finally, the good news is that this will not lead to a dismissal - at worst I would imagine a verbal / written warning, which while not great will ensure you keep your income! If it was me in that position I would be taking the route of 'coaching' to ensure that the rules of lateness / sickness reporting were fully understood [by you] and would be recording this as a note on your file - not a disciplinary warning, merely a warning that could then be produced at subsequent disciplinary hearings should the process not be followed again.

 

I agree with you that they have been a little harsh in not even asking how your niece is, but looking at things from their point of view, your niece is not your dependent, so whilst it is very unfortunate that this has happened - I hope she is better by the way - they will take the stance that it is not your responsibility [harsh, but fair I guess from a legal standpoint].

 

I wouldn't take this personally as you seem to be doing as this will create a pretty bad working environment, however I would bide my time and wait to see what they do next then make a judgement from there as to what steps to take next - who knows, it may end up with no further action and they are just following the process for the sake of following the process!

 

Thank you for the advice, Weston! Appreciated.

I think that’s what I am going to do, let them get on with it and just see what happens next. I won’t mention anything to them, until they show me their hand.

 

 

Exactly what I was thinking, this is where my main problem is.

AWOL is a lot worse and looks worse on a record, rather then just absent, and as you say, I was late, not ‘awol’.

 

If that was to happen, I think would just accept it and just move on; I would still be a bit annoyed? I’m not really sure. I guess that’s just my immaturity coming through, I am only 21.

 

I understand that, but where my parents are away, and my sister being 17, do I have no legal responsibility or being the ‘responsible adult as I am over 18?

I know the whole ‘old enough to have a kid thing’ but she’s 17, and she does not drive, so being made to sit down hospital with a young baby, lugging a car seat around, overnight stuff if it was needed. I just thought it was the right thing to do.

 

 

I am trying not to; I will just see what happens next week when my union rep is back.

 

For what its worth, other line managers on my floor, the assistant floor manager and other colleagues agree that they are being a bit harsh, considering what happened.

 

Thanks again.

[TheCholulaKid]

Hi Guys, thanks for all the advice! thought id reply to this one, to try give you as much information as possible.

 

1. I have done what I thought was best at the time, taking everything into consideration.

2. Reported my lateness by email, as I work in an office, nobody available between 6pm and 7am. No answer phone available. Sent it to my line manager, and floor manager.

3. This is my main problem, AWOL to me, is not turning up completely. They were fully aware of what had happened, I promised them I would be in, and by 12pm. They did not cover my shift; I went in and completed the rest of my working day. Yes, will be paid for the hours that I did work.

4. 3 missed calls, 1 voicemail, and a reply to my email.

5. I asked my line manager if I could have a word, as I was not happy about AWOL, going down on my record. She then said,’ can you come into this room, we need a meeting about it’, she informed me that I would be able to fight my case in a disciplinary hearing. What happened Tuesday night/Wednesday morning is apparently what triggered the action of a disciplinary. Over the past 6 months, I have been late to work 3 times due to my bus. Never missed it, just general traffic, one accident where a man was killed and I still got in trouble. I’m not bothered if they want to discipline me for that, but what I don’t agree with, is having this happen because a family member needed hospital attention. No opportunity to have a witness, no notes were taken and nothing signed. I have currently refused to sign my return to work form, to confirm my absentness as AWOL. This was not technically the proper investigation/disciplinary hearing.

 

I work for big outsourcing company and am just shocked at the way this has been handled. I know its not really their problem, but nobody has even cared to ask how my niece is or anything. I understand procedures need to be followed, and the consequences if they are not so.

 

But they can use discretion, and common sense needs to be applied in situations like this. Its got to the point, where I’m now taking this personally.

 

Some of the stuff I do is quite sensitive, and if I made one mistake, being tried would not be a good enough reason. What I have tried to explain, is that going to sleep at 4, straight through until around 10, gave me a good unbroken sleep. If I woke up at 7, to phone them and tell them I wont be in or late, I would of slept a hell of a lot longer, and most probably wouldn’t of gone in at all. It seems I should have just taken the whole day off, as I have got the same punishment for coming in for over half the day.

 

What time did they read your email and reply? If before the start of your shift I can't see what they are griping about. They had forewarning.

 

If you've been late 3 times in 6 months and then miss half a shift they've probably got reason enough not to be happy. Doesn't really matter why you've been late/not been in work - that's just working life for you. To be completely honest, if you care about not getting anymore grief - get an earlier bus.

 

On the plus side - as somebody said above - you won't get sacked for it.

[Barry Sanchez]

Hi Guys, thanks for all the advice! thought id reply to this one, to try give you as much information as possible.

 

1. I have done what I thought was best at the time, taking everything into consideration.

2. Reported my lateness by email, as I work in an office, nobody available between 6pm and 7am. No answer phone available. Sent it to my line manager, and floor manager.

3. This is my main problem, AWOL to me, is not turning up completely. They were fully aware of what had happened, I promised them I would be in, and by 12pm. They did not cover my shift; I went in and completed the rest of my working day. Yes, will be paid for the hours that I did work.

4. 3 missed calls, 1 voicemail, and a reply to my email.

5. I asked my line manager if I could have a word, as I was not happy about AWOL, going down on my record. She then said,’ can you come into this room, we need a meeting about it’, she informed me that I would be able to fight my case in a disciplinary hearing. What happened Tuesday night/Wednesday morning is apparently what triggered the action of a disciplinary. Over the past 6 months, I have been late to work 3 times due to my bus. Never missed it, just general traffic, one accident where a man was killed and I still got in trouble. I’m not bothered if they want to discipline me for that, but what I don’t agree with, is having this happen because a family member needed hospital attention. No opportunity to have a witness, no notes were taken and nothing signed. I have currently refused to sign my return to work form, to confirm my absentness as AWOL. This was not technically the proper investigation/disciplinary hearing.

 

I work for big outsourcing company and am just shocked at the way this has been handled. I know its not really their problem, but nobody has even cared to ask how my niece is or anything. I understand procedures need to be followed, and the consequences if they are not so.

 

But they can use discretion, and common sense needs to be applied in situations like this. Its got to the point, where I’m now taking this personally.

 

Some of the stuff I do is quite sensitive, and if I made one mistake, being tried would not be a good enough reason. What I have tried to explain, is that going to sleep at 4, straight through until around 10, gave me a good unbroken sleep. If I woke up at 7, to phone them and tell them I wont be in or late, I would of slept a hell of a lot longer, and most probably wouldn’t of gone in at all. It seems I should have just taken the whole day off, as I have got the same punishment for coming in for over half the day.

 

Most on seem not to know the difference of AWOL and absence, if they were HR or Union reps's I would be concerned, have you had an official letter from your company with

 

a charge

a time of the incident

a time not of a meeting but a disciplinary, the two are different

for Union or a representitive to be present

is someone taking minutes

 

If your line manger simply states a meetng is on then there is no disciplinary at all just a slap on the wrist, either way HR has the right to exercise discretion on all cases, make sure you force that.

 

Oh dont let them put different incidences onto one charge, that Victorian practice happens when no one knows what they are doing.

[Barry Sanchez]

Bary you are quite a patronising ****t at time

 

If you have not heard the word AWOL I suggest you need to actually work in an enviroment that uses it, from the railway industry to Kellogg's use it as procedure.

 

Unionised and non Unionised. Im totally aware of the word AWOL . its is word that has its roots stemming back centuries from th military. The common term is unathorised absence> im sure in some industires that AWOL is still used. So please dont accuse me of being thick . . I only assumed that Bowers might be military based as the fulll facts of his employment status were not known at the time. I can assure you I work in an organisation that is unionised , including the marine environment, so get your facts right before suggesting I work in such an environment.

 

Besides my sole intention was to help a fellow listee who needed some guidance re a potential disciplinary situation they found themselves in.

 

Absence is not AWOL, you need to understand that bit first, I think you said Im was talking out my arse, you swagger on here like Perry Mason or Ironside not knowing waht you are on about, he was told about AWOL you dont know that term and have the audacity to say I am talking out my arse, irony and hypocracy at its finest.

Edited 23 August, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[Saint Mikey]

They probably want you out of the company for spending too much time on here...

[Viking Warrior]

Barry again you make an erroneous comment about HR

 

They are employed by a company to sack people in short, thats not wrong, you simply did not like my answer, but a truth it is none the less.

If you believe they are watertight as well you are very very naive.

 

AS Lord Duckhunter sated, We have a specific role to advise managers

 

We are not there to sack people , on the contrary , we are there to ensure the correct process is fair, and that proper investigations, etc are carried out .

what is important are what the alledged allegations are, is the evidence corroborrated , whether it is misconduct. discrimination , bullying and harrasment ets, It is not a case of just sacking someone. . There will be occassions when someone will be sacked due to Gross misconduct. but due process will be undertaken and besides and employee has a right to appeal the disciplinary outcomes. I have been involved with various disciplinary hearings and on numerous occassions I have advised the Panel not to award a particulary disciplinary sanction including dismissal >

 

We are there to ensure due porcess is undertaken and is fair , not to sack people and also had behind the scene discussions with trade union officers covering a wide range of employment topics.

Its not a case of Hire and Fire Barry .

You seem to be quite ingnorant of what HR / personnel actually do ,

 

I could write a lot more on this subject but it would be wasted on You .

[Viking Warrior]

Barry

 

I know what AWOL is . I served in the Military

 

In the United Kingdom, United States, and Canada, military personnel will become AWOL (/ˈeɪwɒl/; U.S.: Absence Without Leave [1]) or AWL (pronounced the same; U.K., Canada, and Australia: Absent Without Leave) when they are absent from their post without a valid pass or leave. The United States Marine Corps, United States Navy, and United States Coast Guard generally refer to this as Unauthorized Absence, or "UA". Personnel are dropped from their unit rolls after 30 days and then listed as deserters; however, as a matter of U.S. military law, desertion is not measured by time away from the unit, but rather:

 

by leaving or remaining absent from their unit, organization, or place of duty, where there has been a determined intent to not return;

if that intent is determined to be to avoid hazardous duty or shirk contractual obligation;

if they enlist or accept an appointment in the same or another branch of service without disclosing the fact that they have not been properly separated from current service.[2]

People who are away for more than 30 days but return voluntarily or indicate a credible intent to return may still be considered AWOL. Those who are away for fewer than 30 days but can credibly be shown to have no intent to return (for example, by joining the armed forces of another country) may nevertheless be tried for desertion. In rare occasions, they may be tried for treason if enough evidence is found.

 

In the United States, before the Civil War, deserters from the Army were flogged; while, after 1861, tattoos or branding were also adopted. The maximum U.S. penalty for desertion in wartime remains death, although this punishment was last applied to Eddie Slovik in 1945. No U.S. serviceman has received more than 24 months imprisonment for desertion or missing movement since the beginning of the post September 11th, 2001 era.[3]

 

A US service member who is AWOL/UA may be punished with non-judicial punishment (NJP), or by court martial under Article 86 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for repeat or more severe offenses.[1][4] Many AWOL/UA service members are also given a discharge in lieu of court-martial.[5][6][7][8][9][10]

 

Missing Movement is another term which is used to describe when a member of the armed forces fails to arrive at the appointed time to deploy (or "move out") with their assigned unit, ship, or aircraft; in the United States military, it is a violation of the Article 87 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.[11] The offense is similar to absence without leave but can draw more severe punishment.[11]

 

Failure to Repair consists of missing a formation or failing to appear at an assigned place and time when so ordered. It is a lesser included offense within Article 86 of the UCMJ.[1]

[Benj540]

I love this kind of stuff, with all due respect don't mean I like to see you in this position. But love employers that act like this.. Absolute hilarity insues when you invite a union rep or someone who has decent HR knowledge. Good luck chap if you do need anything let me know. I've respresented colleagues before in this sort of scenario.

[Viking Warrior]

Oh on a final note Barry, this is from ACAS . I know what I am talking about here

 

Unauthorised absence can be deemed fair grounds for dismissal, but it pays to know your rights and responsibilities as an employer to avoid employment tribunal claims.

 

The case of an employee going off on sick leave and then failing to return, in spite of repeated attempts by their employer to contact them, is one with which many companies and organisations are familiar. So at what point can it be deemed fair for an employer to consider that an AWOL employee has 'self-dismissed'?

 

Several recent legal cases have shown that this can be a grey area in law, and that the concept of 'self-dismissal' is far from clear-cut. Before dismissing a member of staff, employers need to demonstrate first that they have taken all reasonable measures to contact them to ask whether they wish to resign and communicate the intention to dismiss them if no response is received by a certain date. It's particularly important to keep records of all attempts, as failing to show that you have made sufficient effort to contact your employee can leave you open to claims for unfair dismissal and disability discrimination later on.

[Barry Sanchez]

Barry

 

I know what AWOL is . I served in the Military

 

In the United Kingdom, United States, and Canada, military personnel will become AWOL (/ˈeɪwɒl/; U.S.: Absence Without Leave [1]) or AWL (pronounced the same; U.K., Canada, and Australia: Absent Without Leave) when they are absent from their post without a valid pass or leave. The United States Marine Corps, United States Navy, and United States Coast Guard generally refer to this as Unauthorized Absence, or "UA". Personnel are dropped from their unit rolls after 30 days and then listed as deserters; however, as a matter of U.S. military law, desertion is not measured by time away from the unit, but rather:

 

by leaving or remaining absent from their unit, organization, or place of duty, where there has been a determined intent to not return;

if that intent is determined to be to avoid hazardous duty or shirk contractual obligation;

if they enlist or accept an appointment in the same or another branch of service without disclosing the fact that they have not been properly separated from current service.[2]

People who are away for more than 30 days but return voluntarily or indicate a credible intent to return may still be considered AWOL. Those who are away for fewer than 30 days but can credibly be shown to have no intent to return (for example, by joining the armed forces of another country) may nevertheless be tried for desertion. In rare occasions, they may be tried for treason if enough evidence is found.

 

In the United States, before the Civil War, deserters from the Army were flogged; while, after 1861, tattoos or branding were also adopted. The maximum U.S. penalty for desertion in wartime remains death, although this punishment was last applied to Eddie Slovik in 1945. No U.S. serviceman has received more than 24 months imprisonment for desertion or missing movement since the beginning of the post September 11th, 2001 era.[3]

 

A US service member who is AWOL/UA may be punished with non-judicial punishment (NJP), or by court martial under Article 86 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for repeat or more severe offenses.[1][4] Many AWOL/UA service members are also given a discharge in lieu of court-martial.[5][6][7][8][9][10]

 

Missing Movement is another term which is used to describe when a member of the armed forces fails to arrive at the appointed time to deploy (or "move out") with their assigned unit, ship, or aircraft; in the United States military, it is a violation of the Article 87 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.[11] The offense is similar to absence without leave but can draw more severe punishment.[11]

 

Failure to Repair consists of missing a formation or failing to appear at an assigned place and time when so ordered. It is a lesser included offense within Article 86 of the UCMJ.[1]

 

 

No you know how to copy and paste.

[Barry Sanchez]

Oh on a final note Barry, this is from ACAS . I know what I am talking about here

 

Unauthorised absence can be deemed fair grounds for dismissal, but it pays to know your rights and responsibilities as an employer to avoid employment tribunal claims.

 

The case of an employee going off on sick leave and then failing to return, in spite of repeated attempts by their employer to contact them, is one with which many companies and organisations are familiar. So at what point can it be deemed fair for an employer to consider that an AWOL employee has 'self-dismissed'?

 

Several recent legal cases have shown that this can be a grey area in law, and that the concept of 'self-dismissal' is far from clear-cut. Before dismissing a member of staff, employers need to demonstrate first that they have taken all reasonable measures to contact them to ask whether they wish to resign and communicate the intention to dismiss them if no response is received by a certain date. It's particularly important to keep records of all attempts, as failing to show that you have made sufficient effort to contact your employee can leave you open to claims for unfair dismissal and disability discrimination later on.

 

 

 

 

Where have I said AWOL is not a sackable? You need to think before you jump in, please quote me on this, I thank you.

[Viking Warrior]

AS Benj540 stated , if the employer doesnt follow propers policies and procedures then any case will fall apart.

Back to Bowers , based on what he has conveyed and dependent who he works for, I wouls suggest the maixmum he would get would be a verbal warning if deemed appropriate given the mitigating circumstances he mentions. If he was working for the organisation I work for it would not get anywhere near a disciplinary process unless there was previous warnings given

[Barry Sanchez]

Oh on a final note Barry, this is from ACAS . I know what I am talking about here

 

Unauthorised absence can be deemed fair grounds for dismissal, but it pays to know your rights and responsibilities as an employer to avoid employment tribunal claims.

 

The case of an employee going off on sick leave and then failing to return, in spite of repeated attempts by their employer to contact them, is one with which many companies and organisations are familiar. So at what point can it be deemed fair for an employer to consider that an AWOL employee has 'self-dismissed'?

 

Several recent legal cases have shown that this can be a grey area in law, and that the concept of 'self-dismissal' is far from clear-cut. Before dismissing a member of staff, employers need to demonstrate first that they have taken all reasonable measures to contact them to ask whether they wish to resign and communicate the intention to dismiss them if no response is received by a certain date. It's particularly important to keep records of all attempts, as failing to show that you have made sufficient effort to contact your employee can leave you open to claims for unfair dismissal and disability discrimination later on.

Yes yes the onus is on the employee, Christ do you think I dont know this, read what I read from my first post on this, a line of communication needs to be in place (verbally normally), please again read what I have written.

[Viking Warrior]

Barry

 

are you blinkered or what ? i was responding to this post . Im not refering to whether AWOL is sackable or not but to the following point you raised

 

Absence is not AWOL, you need to understand that bit first

[Give it to Ron]

Just to add... a lady who works for me her husband has just been sacked because the boss didn't like him.

He has an outstanding record, had great reviews from customers, got sales bonus etc but his lady boss

took a dislike and sacked him. He has been to lawyer and threatened industrial tribunals and was told to accept the

latest which is a redundancy package because only 10% of unfair dismissals ever 'win'.

No union.

[Barry Sanchez]

The charge is very weak indeed, brought by some bellend not knowing what they are doing, it seems they have linked previous seperate incidences and pushed them into this.

 

Its thats flimsy once dropped I would follow the grievance procedure, HR and the manager then would have to have answers, I would like to see the HR experts on here for that ha ha!

[Barry Sanchez]

Just to add... a lady who works for me her husband has just been sacked because the boss didn't like him.

He has an outstanding record, had great reviews from customers, got sales bonus etc but his lady boss

took a dislike and sacked him. He has been to lawyer and threatened industrial tribunals and was told to accept the

latest which is a redundancy package because only 10% of unfair dismissals ever 'win'.

No union.

 

No Union, I hear this all the time and it makes me wince, law and procedure get trodden on, sure you have flexibilty if you go sick, they take it as a holiday........................

[Give it to Ron]

No Union, I hear this all the time and it makes me wince, law and procedure get trodden on, sure you have flexibilty if you go sick, they take it as a holiday........................

 

Not much you can do if your company doesn't recognise them.....

[Barry Sanchez]

Not much you can do if your company doesn't recognise them.....

 

I think if 30% of the workforce write to the management then you can have representation.

[Viking Warrior]

Bowers . Just read your email above . Your manager has not handled this very well and is out of order . The comment that you will able to put your case at a disciplinary is out of order and not good practice . sounds like bullying and intimidatory behaviour . Your trade union rep will be able to use her behaviour in supporting any case raised against you . . I will respond to the facts you have raised this evening and give you some additional guidance if it will help you given others have given you decent advice already

[Lord Duckhunter]

Anyone can join and be represented by a union, and has the right to union representation at disciplinary. A company not recognising unions make no difference at all. A very narrow group of employees have no union rights the vast majority of workers can join a union and the union can help that individual.

[Viking Warrior]

Interesting case Ron . He could still take out an unfair dismissal case . If despite getting a redundancy package the manager fills your post like for like . The redundancy package could be worth more than any unfair dismissal claims . The average pay out Is quite low . He could claim for sex discrimination though

[Barry Sanchez]

Anyone can join and be represented by a union, and has the right to union representation at disciplinary. A company not recognising unions make no difference at all. A very narrow group of employees have no union rights the vast majority of workers can join a union and the union can help that individual.

 

You obviously do not know the real end of the workforce, if you mention Union in minimum wage jobs that come from job agencies then I can assure you you wont be there long, Unions can only do so much if they only come in for disciplines, they cant negotiate terms and conditions, wages, retirements and protection from poor working practices.

 

A company could always say they dont recognise that Union so your point is moot.

[Give it to Ron]

Interesting case Ron . He could still take out an unfair dismissal case . If despite getting a redundancy package the manager fills your post like for like . The redundancy package could be worth more than any unfair dismissal claims . The average pay out Is quite low . He could claim for sex discrimination though

 

He was told if he proceeded with unfair dismissal no redundancy - lawyer advised to take money - but now trying for notice period pay as well. Not the first time for this boss apparently....the other was a woman so he would lose that - swings both ways :-)

[trousers]

...

[Window Cleaner]

Well I would have just gone in anyway, saved a whole lot of problems. Surely a young man can handle one night short on sleep.

[Barry Sanchez]

Well I would have just gone in anyway, saved a whole lot of problems. Surely a young man can handle one night short on sleep.

 

Oh dear.............