Unbelievable Jeff Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I think it shows how well Britain has done in the elimination of racism from every day life that the real racists have to delve so deep into obscurity to find examples to pretend that it is still a real every day problem for normal people. To be fair, have a look at Stan Collymore's Twitter retweets to show this isn't quite true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeintheslowlane Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Racism is a serious business that should be stamped out wherever it occurs. This is just bashing some you don't like under the pretence they are racists. I was brought up in the 1950s singing "Enney Meeney Minney Mo"...I was a skinny kid and my mother called me a "Belsen Boy"...we had "Uncle Tom's Cabin" in the bookcase...my mum and dad watched "The Black and White Minstrel Show" on BBC TV. Were we closet racists/anti Semitists of course not...there were a very short list of things you weren't allowed to say when I was growing up. Today there's a political correctness that seems to set out to catch out the unwary, rather than the real offenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I don't buy this - "oh, we used to do x, y, z way back when" stuff. People were segregated, and oppressed way back when. And now they are not. It is called progress. Things change, just because racism and use of racist language was more tolerated a while back, does not mean that should carry on forever. It's not political correctness, it's progress ffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I don't buy this - "oh, we used to do x, y, z way back when" stuff. People were segregated, and oppressed way back when. And now they are not. It is called progress. Things change, just because racism and use of racist language was more tolerated a while back, does not mean that should carry on forever. It's not political correctness, it's progress ffs. Agreed, however it does not mean that by saying a word it is a racist gesture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Agreed, however it does not mean that by saying a word it is a racist gesture. True, the two are separate issues I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 2 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 2 May, 2014 That was exactly the reason the rhyme was used, the cars are the same, same price, built in the same factory. So that was why it was used. It was ill advised to use the word, but using the word itself is not racist. It's the same as those who use the phrase 'Call a spade a spade'. Making choices is part and parcel of humanity. Much of our culture reflects this. Clarkson could have chosen a myriad of different ways to approach the issue, the vast majority of which would have offended no-one. He chose to pick the one that would, and was stupid enough to say something out loud that sounds a lot like the offensive word. He knew what he was doing, and wouldn't be in this bother if he'd picked another rhyme or song about choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeintheslowlane Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I don't buy this - "oh, we used to do x, y, z way back when" stuff. People were segregated, and oppressed way back when. And now they are not. It is called progress. Things change, just because racism and use of racist language was more tolerated a while back, does not mean that should carry on forever. It's not political correctness, it's progress ffs. I'm not talking about '50s society...what did I know about "society" as a small boy. Sure racism existed as it does today but OUR world in the '50 was distilled through The Daily Mirror and BBC Radio News and Pathe in the cinema. You're judging attitudes of the past with attitudes of today..."The Past is a Foreign Country." As "Jeff" says "it does'nt mean that by saying a word it's a racist gesture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I don't buy this - "oh, we used to do x, y, z way back when" stuff. People were segregated, and oppressed way back when. And now they are not. It is called progress. Things change, just because racism and use of racist language was more tolerated a while back, does not mean that should carry on forever. It's not political correctness, it's progress ffs. It wasn't racist then, was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I've just watched the Mirror video. There are two versions, one presumably intended for transmission and one where he mumbles. Knowing what the wording of the rhyme was originally it is possible to fill in your own interpretation of his mumble but this is nowhere near conclusive. Someone has passed this recording to the Mirror, presumably for money but they may have thought they were doing the cause of race relations a good service, but we have no proof that this is the original unexpurgated version, apart from any confession he may feel it necessary to grudge together. It would never stand up in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Making choices is part and parcel of humanity. Much of our culture reflects this. Clarkson could have chosen a myriad of different ways to approach the issue, the vast majority of which would have offended no-one. He chose to pick the one that would, and was stupid enough to say something out loud that sounds a lot like the offensive word. He knew what he was doing, and wouldn't be in this bother if he'd picked another rhyme or song about choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 So it's OK to be racist, sexist, mysoginist etc. etc. as long as it makes money? Strange values. It's worked for Star Wars, apparently.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Judging by his obviously sarcastic apology I expect it's been leaked on purpose so that millions tune into the next episode of TopGear to watch Clarkson take the p!ss out of all you saddos who get offended on behalf of someone else over nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 It wasn't racist then, was it? I'm torn. I don't think he was neccessarilly attempting to be racist, I think he was just being pretty dumb. He's old enough and experienced enough (pretty sure he's been on camera regularly longer than I have been alive) to know it's a dumb thing to do. That isn't really the point I was making though, was it? Just because people used to say things all the time 10/20/30/40 years ago - doesn't make it acceptable, people being offended by that behaviour in the present is not 'political correctness gone mad'. There was a time when slavery was acceptable, and common. Now it is not. Is that political correctness gone mad, or progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 It's worked for Star Wars, apparently.. And The Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I'm torn. I don't think he was neccessarilly attempting to be racist, I think he was just being pretty dumb. He's old enough and experienced enough (pretty sure he's been on camera regularly longer than I have been alive) to know it's a dumb thing to do. That isn't really the point I was making though, was it? Just because people used to say things all the time 10/20/30/40 years ago - doesn't make it acceptable, people being offended by that behaviour in the present is not 'political correctness gone mad'. There was a time when slavery was acceptable, and common. Now it is not. Is that political correctness gone mad, or progress? You can't compare this 'private' behaviour to the slave trade, surely? Look, there is nothing inherently racist in the use of this word of itself. It's just an easy way for the PC brigade to jump on you. Whilst we're on the subject: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/04/man-cleared-racial-abuse-endearment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 You can't compare this 'private' behaviour to the slave trade, surely? Look, there is nothing inherently racist in the use of this word of itself. It's just an easy way for the PC brigade to jump on you. Whilst we're on the subject: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/04/man-cleared-racial-abuse-endearment How is saying it in front of a rolling camera, filming for one of the most watched shows in the world (like it or not Top Gear really is) 'private'? I don't think he was being racist, and simply saying the word is not racist. That is not what I am saying. But, the rhyme, which many people used to say a lot when they were kids etc is racist. It clearly is. Hence my point, just because something used to be acceptable, does not mean it should always be. The fact somethings are no longer acceptable should be applauded and celebrated, not seen as political correctness gone mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 But, the rhyme, which many people used to say a lot when they were kids etc is racist. It clearly is. Is it tho? I mean as I understand it the song is bout playing chase at school, and it merely warns bout not playing too rough, i.e. "if he hollers let him go". If it was truly racist poem it would go more like: eeny meeny miny mo catch an n-word by his toe if he hollers bind his mouth shut with duck tape and string him up from nearest tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 If did that song from 12 yrs a slave as an encore, then there wouldn't have been any doubt but to be fair, he did try and muffle it out just his mufflers failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 what song? i have not seen that film. Is it even more racist than the eeny meeny song? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 How is saying it in front of a rolling camera, filming for one of the most watched shows in the world (like it or not Top Gear really is) 'private'? I don't think he was being racist, and simply saying the word is not racist. That is not what I am saying. But, the rhyme, which many people used to say a lot when they were kids etc is racist. It clearly is. Hence my point, just because something used to be acceptable, does not mean it should always be. The fact somethings are no longer acceptable should be applauded and celebrated, not seen as political correctness gone mad. 1. Any recording was never intended for publication. We don't even know if what he mumbled was an untouched recording. 2. A genuine question: Why is the rhyme racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 the black must be barefoot to catch him "by his toe". Blacks running barefoot is racist stereotype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeintheslowlane Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 the black must be barefoot to catch him "by his toe". Blacks running barefoot is racist stereotype. It's also an old nursery rhyme. Not condoning, just understanding why it still appears in mumbled form from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tc9xWX3wLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Is it tho? I mean as I understand it the song is bout playing chase at school, and it merely warns bout not playing too rough, i.e. "if he hollers let him go". If it was truly racist poem it would go more like: eeny meeny miny mo catch an n-word by his toe if he hollers bind his mouth shut with duck tape and string him up from nearest tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 ill advised and trying to be more clever than he is - yes Racist - no If he does get the sack I am quite sure another network will pick up the show / format and he'll get paid even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Racism is a serious business that should be stamped out wherever it occurs. This is just bashing some you don't like under the pretence they are racists. I was brought up in the 1950s singing "Enney Meeney Minney Mo"...I was a skinny kid and my mother called me a "Belsen Boy"...we had "Uncle Tom's Cabin" in the bookcase...my mum and dad watched "The Black and White Minstrel Show" on BBC TV. Were we closet racists/anti Semitists of course not...there were a very short list of things you weren't allowed to say when I was growing up. Today there's a political correctness that seems to set out to catch out the unwary, rather than the real offenders. The question should be changed from 'is Jeremy Clarkson racist?' to 'is Jeremy Clarkson perpetuating racism?'. One has a much clearer answer than the other. The same applies to the Black and White Minstrel Show - its viewers weren't racists by default but it reinforced incredibly damaging stereotypes and its viewers supported it. That's still a problem. You don't say the n-word blithely. You just don't. I'm terribly sorry it can't go back to the way it was when you grew up, but we as a society have lifted a lot of oppression since then and would quite like to keep going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tc9xWX3wLE Yeah, I find this quite racist. He is making a distinction between people based on the colour of their skin. In fact, I don't think I have ever heard a black comedian not refer to the fact that they are black. I'm nearly 65 and I long for the day when we can stop differentiating between different races. The colour of the skin is no more important that the colour of the hair or the colour of the eyes. I fear that I shall have to live a long time so long as people insist on perpetuating the distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 The question should be changed from 'is Jeremy Clarkson racist?' to 'is Jeremy Clarkson perpetuating racism?'. One has a much clearer answer than the other. The same applies to the Black and White Minstrel Show - its viewers weren't racists by default but it reinforced incredibly damaging stereotypes and its viewers supported it. That's still a problem. You don't say the n-word blithely. You just don't. I'm terribly sorry it can't go back to the way it was when you grew up, but we as a society have lifted a lot of oppression since then and would quite like to keep going. No you don't, but who is perpetuating racism here? Jeremy Clarkson or the person who thought it right to publish this video to the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I'm terribly sorry it can't go back to the way it was when you grew up, but we as a society have lifted a lot of oppression since then and would quite like to keep going. i'm against oppression in all it's forms, including the oppression of pseudo-racists. It makes these situations quite difficult for me. Why is it ok to oppress clarkson like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Yeah, I find this quite racist. He is making a distinction between people based on the colour of their skin. I'm nearly 65 and I long for the day when we can stop differentiating between different races. . You mean famous racists like, Nick Griffin or Diane Abbott whitey or just people in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Because he's only a whitey, so it doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeintheslowlane Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 You don't say the n-word blithely. You just don't. I'm terribly sorry it can't go back to the way it was when you grew up, but we as a society have lifted a lot of oppression since then and would quite like to keep going. I'm not hankering for "the good old days"...I don't use the "N" word either, I'm reporting how it was and why occasionally people mis-judge the strength of feeling attached to reciting a kid's nursery rhyme, even when they mumble the offensive word. I moderate on a large US forum and you can't even type the word or even anything approaching it...it auto-corrects to read "attractive and successful african american". If that appears in a forum post everybody know's the writer will be banned immediately...as it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I find this quite racist. He is making a distinction between people based on the colour of their skin. In fact, I don't think I have ever heard a black comedian not refer to the fact that they are black. I'm nearly 65 and I long for the day when we can stop differentiating between different races. The colour of the skin is no more important that the colour of the hair or the colour of the eyes. I fear that I shall have to live a long time so long as people insist on perpetuating the distinction. I'm afraid you misunderstand what racism is, or what a society free of it would look like. It is not about washing away our differences, it is about celebrating them and providing equality for all. Race, unlike hair or eye colour, is central to many people's identity. You could, however, argue that's mostly because of racism - race as a badge of honour, etc. You'd do well to watch more black comedians, anyway - and think about why the ones who do reference their race all the time are put on TV. No you don't, but who is perpetuating racism here? Jeremy Clarkson or the person who thought it right to publish this video to the world? Jeremy Clarkson. The person who leaked the video believed there was significant public interest in revealing the language and attitudes of one of our most popular TV personalities. And they're right. Edited 2 May, 2014 by DuncanRG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 People are more culturalist than racist imo. People, even those express the view they are 'colour blind', are naturally drawn to people like them - similar age, class, language, tv programmes. Colour is just one factor. I saw an interview with a black actor talking about the set of Planet of the Apes and how for breakfast the Hispanics, blacks and whites tended to eat in separate groups. Later at lunch and in make-up the tables divided into Chimps, Gorillas and Orang Utans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I don't buy this - "oh, we used to do x, y, z way back when" stuff. People were segregated, and oppressed way back when. And now they are not. It is called progress. Things change, just because racism and use of racist language was more tolerated a while back, does not mean that should carry on forever. It's not political correctness, it's progress ffs. agree but i think clarkson was brought up in a era when it was ok to behave like that ,but i don,t think he is a racist more a product of the upbringing of people at that time and just a silly old fool who i for one find him unfunny and boreing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Does saying a racist word make someone racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Does saying a racist word make someone racist? Turn it on its head - someone who abhors racism wouldn't dream of using a racist word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Turn it on its head - someone who abhors racism wouldn't dream of using a racist word. That's not what I asked though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Does saying a racist word make someone racist? Nope. Just a bloody idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 People are more culturalist than racist imo. People, even those express the view they are 'colour blind', are naturally drawn to people like them - similar age, class, language, tv programmes. Colour is just one factor. I saw an interview with a black actor talking about the set of Planet of the Apes and how for breakfast the Hispanics, blacks and whites tended to eat in separate groups. Later at lunch and in make-up the tables divided into Chimps, Gorillas and Orang Utans. Hmm, very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 You'd do well to watch more black comedians, anyway - and think about why the ones who do reference their race all the time are put on TV. I only ask these questions in order to encourage us to examine established viewpoints. My point about these comedians is that they constantly remind that we have different skin colours. If somebody has been born and bred in British culture then why should skin colour matter. People are peopl, fat or thin, good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringwood Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 sticks and stones its not a re run of death do us part, its a mumbled word in a rhyme he probably learnt with his peers at school in the sixties and seventies. there is another agenda here, he's pee'd off someone in the production staff and they want payback thats why its been aired, pretty sure there was no racist intent from either JC or the person who leaked it. society has changed, yes that word and others arn't acceptable, but who remembers when a Golly was on a jar of marmalade or a figurine in a band , we cant hide history, the word is part of that rhyme, its also in the Dambusters, Golly's still exist, and education teaches now that those stereotype words arn't correct, but to hear it in this instance try reciting the rhyme and see what word you use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I only ask these questions in order to encourage us to examine established viewpoints. My point about these comedians is that they constantly remind that we have different skin colours. If somebody has been born and bred in British culture then why should skin colour matter. People are peopl, fat or thin, good or bad. It's important because it does form a core part of people's identity. If people are born and bred into British culture then they are born into one where white is the norm and everything else is 'other'. This is why you hear well-meaning people say things like 'I don't really see you as black' - as if that would be a problem. Failing to respect and celebrate our differences makes it an attempt to integrate people of colour into a white norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 (edited) It's important because it does form a core part of people's identity. If people are born and bred into British culture then they are born into one where white is the norm and everything else is 'other'. This is why you hear well-meaning people say things like 'I don't really see you as black' - as if that would be a problem. Failing to respect and celebrate our differences makes it an attempt to integrate people of colour into a white norm. I strongly disagree. There's nothing wrong with celebrating differences but to do that entirely on the basis of colour is fundamentally wrong. Edited 2 May, 2014 by Whitey Grandad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 When I was a young person ( I won't say b** in case I am accused of being sexist ) and I saw my very first non-white person - I was fascinated. Did that make me a racist ? Our neighbours had a black cat that was named after a certain RAF hero bomber pilot's dog. Did that make them racist ? The nasty stuff happening to non-white people was never talked about but that was probably because in those days it was not common knowledge. Also in those days people disliked the Japanese for what they did to POW's but no-one called them racist although these days I am sure they would. They were however called lots of names and some people refused to ever buy Japanese products, did that make them racist ? What I am rambling on about though is that viewpoints change considerably over time but once in a blue moon older people, like me and Mr C, might mistakenly let something slip. The fact that they instantly regret it will be conveniently be over looked by those who want to be offended. I am sure most of us have said a swear word by mistake for whatever reason when that wasn't perhaps the best thing to do I am sure that in 40 years or so the present "holier than thou" lot will say something that although perfectly acceptable now won't be then and hopefully they will be treated the same way as they treat people now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 3 May, 2014 Share Posted 3 May, 2014 I hope and expect that Jeremy Clarkson will not be sacked, because that would be an over-reaction. If everybody who might have said one word that many find offensive were to be sacked, we would all be out of a job. This kind of witch hunt does nobody any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 3 May, 2014 He has been given a final warning by the BBC. One more offensive remark and he's out. http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/may/03/jeremy-clarkson-given-final-warning-by-the-bbc As I said earlier, he knew what he was doing. Still playing the victim though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 3 May, 2014 Share Posted 3 May, 2014 I hope and expect that Jeremy Clarkson will not be sacked, because that would be an over-reaction. If everybody who might have said one word that many find offensive were to be sacked, we would all be out of a job. This kind of witch hunt does nobody any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 3 May, 2014 Share Posted 3 May, 2014 When I was a young person ( I won't say b** in case I am accused of being sexist ) and I saw my very first non-white person - I was fascinated. Did that make me a racist ? Our neighbours had a black cat that was named after a certain RAF hero bomber pilot's dog. Did that make them racist ? The nasty stuff happening to non-white people was never talked about but that was probably because in those days it was not common knowledge. Also in those days people disliked the Japanese for what they did to POW's but no-one called them racist although these days I am sure they would. They were however called lots of names and some people refused to ever buy Japanese products, did that make them racist ? What I am rambling on about though is that viewpoints change considerably over time but once in a blue moon older people, like me and Mr C, might mistakenly let something slip. The fact that they instantly regret it will be conveniently be over looked by those who want to be offended. I am sure most of us have said a swear word by mistake for whatever reason when that wasn't perhaps the best thing to do I am sure that in 40 years or so the present "holier than thou" lot will say something that although perfectly acceptable now won't be then and hopefully they will be treated the same way as they treat people now. Good post Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 3 May, 2014 "Mum! I was playing with this racially offensive nursery rhyme and it went off in my face". That about the size of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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