SW11_Saint Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 As you will have seen, Forest, after getting four goals thumped past them yesterday by Doncaster have sacked Colin Calderwood (note this is the team how just cruised passed us 2-0 at SMS without hardly breaking sweat...). I imagine they'll have Billy Davies or someone lined up and the new man will bring a bit of fight and positivity to a beleaguered squad. It may work, it may not, but the important thing is they have taken action to try to get out of the mess they are in. Forest chief executive Mark Arthur said: "We're grateful to Colin for his efforts over the last two-and-a-half years, in particular for leading us to promotion from League One. "But we're in a results business and it's imperative that the club stays in the Championship. "We need to give ourselves every opportunity to do that." No one likes to see people sacked, but read what their CEO is saying "... it's imperative that the club stays in the Championship". Exactly. Yet our board sit impotently by; demoralising results follow dismal performances - promising kids with their confidence sapped, old pro's frustrated at a lack of direction in a competitive league like this. Tick, tock, tick, tock... simply waiting for the inevitable to happen... Frankly, it just isn't good enough - yet of course they cannot act and remove JP and bring someone else in, as this would entail admitting that another bizarre experiment with our club has failed. Lowe, due to his ego, just cannot admit another catastrophic error in his managerial decision making. He'd rather sit and watch the club sink into League 1, and in all probability Administration. So, one last plea to the boardroom - does anyone in there, curently quaking behind the curtains, have the balls to make a difficult decision and end poor old JP's floundering and appoint someone who can instill a bit of fight and spirit and at least give us half a chance of getting out of this mess? [of course the other issue is, do we trust them to make a sensible appointment anyway?!]. If, as I suspect, the answer is NO, then we're just left relying on Jan to do the honourable thing and step down, realising his limitations. If no action is taken, there is surely only one way this club is heading... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 so.....two teams below us have acted...when will the penny drop.. also...were watford below us when they changed manager..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestSaint Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 A new manager so often brings about positive results to a club when he initially takes over. Nottingham Forest results could improve dramatically on the new appointment putting us in an even worse position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faz Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 so.....two teams below us have acted...when will the penny drop.. also...were watford below us when they changed manager..? So we all change manager. Then what? It can't work for everyone, can it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 I think we need to change our Director of Football first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 So we all change manager. Then what? It can't work for everyone, can it? then what..? we try something new....take a chance...as the way it is going..we ARE going down.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 then what..? we try something new....take a chance...as the way it is going..we ARE going down.. Agreed. I think Forest will take Billy davies too. I think he still lives locally and - unlike Saints - he has a team of potential bully boys to work with. I dont think BD would work for Saints now given the youth - I agree he would be better than JP - but frankly due to the team makeup it would be the difference of finishing last or 2nd to last IMHO. Davies will however, possibly rescue Forest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Just like we acted when Wigley was in charge and went on to finish bottom. It's not always the answer. I especially don't see it being the answer when the manager in question has no money and a **** squad. The new manager will have...that's right, no money and a **** squad. In fact, as we pay off more and more managers that struggle with the **** squads, the squad will get even worse. Excellent. The only possible change I can see is Hockaday or Wotte taking the role. I have no idea if that would help or not. hey...we should have stayed with gormless and dudd then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 27 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 27 December, 2008 So we all change manager. Then what? It can't work for everyone, can it? So what, we sit back and do nothing then, leading to the inevitable - and watch everyone who have taken action battle it out? You'd be at home in the boardroom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Agreed. I think Forest will take Billy davies too. I think he still lives locally and - unlike Saints - he has a team of potential bully boys to work with. I dont think BD would work for Saints now given the youth - I agree he would be better than JP - but frankly due to the team makeup it would be the difference of finishing last or 2nd to last IMHO. Davies will however, possibly rescue Forest. you say that...forest have their fair share of young players too... we dont have the monopoloy of playing youngsters at all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Sorry but taking a chance in football now and trying something new IS sticking with a manager for more than 6 months! We might be awful and likely to go down, but we aren't down and you don't know we'll go down. I've seen worse teams survive, form changes, selections change, who knows. This league is so ****e that despite how hard we've tried, we're still not in the drop zone. Maybe we'll start playing once we are. you must have been gutted we never persisted with gorman and dodd I assume..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 I'm going with Forest making Roy Keane an offer he can't reject. After all, he did play for them in the past under Brian Clough. Or perhaps Paul Ince is the type of manager they want. All will depend on their financial backers who do seem, like many Midland clubs to appear (unlike ours) when they are required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 The only possible change I can see is Hockaday or Wotte taking the role. I have no idea if that would help or not. I think thats correct if Lowe stays. But like all appointments from within rarely do the new coaches make a difference, they are already part of the failing mentality. We do need an outside change... but I fear the damage has already been done by Lowe whoever comes - and afterall who will???? No one is going to want to work for Lowe. We are going to sell our best nippas. We are not going to buy experience. We are not getting a new manager who understands this league... unless we get a SIGNIFICANT change in the boardroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 I will say...I want jan gone IF it was an outsider coming in to take over from the first team ie. davies, ince, coterill etc...NOT wotte and co.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 you say that...forest have their fair share of young players too... we dont have the monopoloy of playing youngsters at all.... I think they are better equipped with experience than we are now (unless our loanees return). Thus BD might work better for them than us. Dont get me wrong I'd take almost anyone above JP and our current DoF... but it aint happening without Lowe's removal methinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faz Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 then what..? we try something new....take a chance...as the way it is going..we ARE going down.. I though we were trying something new. The way it's going, Charlton ARE going down, Forest ARE going down, Donny Are going down. maybe even Watford and Norwich ARE going down. Should be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyR Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Sorry but taking a chance in football now and trying something new IS sticking with a manager for more than 6 months! We might be awful and likely to go down, but we aren't down and you don't know we'll go down. I've seen worse teams survive, form changes, selections change, who knows. This league is so ****e that despite how hard we've tried, we're still not in the drop zone. Maybe we'll start playing once we are. Do you have a seat in the board room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeem Hardison Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 So we all change manager. Then what? It can't work for everyone, can it? Perhaps if we change our manager TWICE. I think that this will give us the edge over the others. This will give us TWO initial bouts of positivity and results which should be enough for us to survive this season, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 I though we were trying something new. The way it's going, Charlton ARE going down, Forest ARE going down, Donny Are going down. maybe even Watford and Norwich ARE going down. Should be interesting. lol jesus christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 27 December, 2008 Author Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Just like we acted when Wigley was in charge and went on to finish bottom. It's not always the answer. I especially don't see it being the answer when the manager in question has no money and a **** squad. The new manager will have...that's right, no money and a **** squad. In fact, as we pay off more and more managers that struggle with the **** squads, the squad will get even worse. Excellent. The only possible change I can see is Hockaday or Wotte taking the role. I have no idea if that would help or not. Well the Wigley issue will get us onto whether he should have been appointed or not (clearly NOT! - another visionary measure by Lowe), in the same we could debate JP's appointment. You are right though, there is absolutely no way to guarantee that a change will work. But it might just give us a chance as clearly we are not going to survive with Poortvliet at the helm. Silly analogy, but if your house was on fire and someone said "here's 20 buckets of water, they might help, they might not" would you just shrug and say "nah, no point... it's going to burn anyway"? Any new guy will face the same financial constraints - and sadly we might even face the choice of selling a Lallana or Surman to bring in one or two Championship battlers. Point being again, that surely doing something is better than doing nothing... (although I agree Wotte and Hockaday isn't really an alternative). Re. the point about "paying off mangaer" - couldn't agree more, but unfortunately that comes with the territory with Lowe and his poor managerial decision making... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Our hungry young strikers will score 20 goals each to save us. Won't they Adrian. Simple truth is that no matter what is done now it's too little too late and we are going down. Well done Lowe, your revolution has worked a treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFHP Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Just like we acted when Wigley was in charge and went on to finish bottom. Maybe we should not of appointed Wigley in the 1st place? Maybe we should have made the change sooner? Would we have got more points in Novenmer if we had? (Remember people saying give him untill the end of November? oops too late) Surly we can't make the same mistakes again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 A new manager so often brings about positive results to a club when he initially takes over. Nottingham Forest results could improve dramatically on the new appointment putting us in an even worse position not saying we shouldn't change, just interesting thing on radio 5 other day a statition disproved all football myths about good time to score and changing manager gives instant boost -apparently it just as often makes no difference or things get worse. anyway back to saints - it gets to the stage that things do get in a rut and you need a catalyst to change -not sure if thats now just yet. His post match reactions worry me more and more. Would worry again, as did when calls for GB to go were made, who would we get? Anyone but GB proved disatrous -lets not do it again. Don't know enough about Hockaday's or Wotte's characters or desires to know whether they would be good bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 i dont care about forest but if you want to make some money put all your dosh on nigel clough being appointed.he is currently on a nine game run of wins at burton albion and they are 10 points clear at the top of the table,still holding on to the number 20 shirt just in case he needs to play..............hold on a minute he could be just what we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 i dont care about forest but if you want to make some money put all your dosh on nigel clough being appointed.he is currently on a nine game run of wins at burton albion and they are 10 points clear at the top of the table,still holding on to the number 20 shirt just in case he needs to play..............hold on a minute he could be just what we need. his age would have to be 2 less than his shirt number before we would be interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 So we all change manager. Then what? It can't work for everyone, can it? No, you're right. Lets be the ones that don't do anything and hope things get better. FFS, you could replace JP with me and I guarantee things wouldn't be any worse, I could lose 4 games on the trot just as effectively as JP. Your response sounds like Lowe, lets try a little experiment and show the rest of the world that they were wrong and Lowe was right, and is the great visionary. JP will never turn this team around, please face it, accept it, and take action. Even if the actio fails, we can at least say we tried, but to do nothing is just criminal negligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 So we all change manager. Then what? It can't work for everyone, can it? It usually does, it's called 'regression to the mean', but that normally applies where the team is in a false position due to a run of bad luck. I think that even the most apologetic of the posters on here have given up using that particular excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Our hungry young strikers will score 20 goals each to save us. Won't they Adrian. Simple truth is that no matter what is done now it's too little too late and we are going down. Well done Lowe, your revolution has worked a treat. There may be alot of truth in this statement. God I hope not... but I think even a supported manager change now would find it difficult to undo the damage Lowe has now caused. I think there are parrallels with our previous relegation...even Harry couldnt save us last time... even before Lowe finally broke his will to be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 There may be alot of truth in this statement. God I hope not... but I think even a supported manager change now would find it difficult to undo the damage Lowe has now caused. I think there are parrallels with our previous relegation...even Harry couldnt save us last time... even before Lowe finally broke his will to be here. but a change of manager could do wonders,look what happened to spurs when redknapp took over,even blackburn have managed to pick up 4 points in 2 games since allardyce joined........a decent manager injects some belief into dejected players. we need somebody to stop the slide,i dont know who that somebody is but i would get them here sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Shango Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Just like we acted when Wigley was in charge and went on to finish bottom. It's not always the answer. I especially don't see it being the answer when the manager in question has no money and a **** squad. The new manager will have...that's right, no money and a **** squad. In fact, as we pay off more and more managers that struggle with the **** squads, the squad will get even worse. Excellent. The only possible change I can see is Hockaday or Wotte taking the role. I have no idea if that would help or not. We would have more than likely finished bottom with even lower points if we'd kept Wigley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilko Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 If somebody else is available and will do it for the same money as Jan, I'd be tempted. Surely they would have to do better. He seems a perfectly nice bloke, but not up to it at this level. Maybe even give Wotte a go? Things are getting desperate and the ship is sinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Just like we acted when Wigley was in charge and went on to finish bottom. It's not always the answer. I especially don't see it being the answer when the manager in question has no money and a **** squad. The new manager will have...that's right, no money and a **** squad. In fact, as we pay off more and more managers that struggle with the **** squads, the squad will get even worse. Excellent. The only possible change I can see is Hockaday or Wotte taking the role. I have no idea if that would help or not. Whilst this is clearly not a squad of Premiership world-beaters it is definitely better than current results are portraying. I remember when Hoddle came back, he hardly changed the personnel and turned us from a very poor team into a half decent team. It may just be that a change of manager is just what we need. In all fairness we can't really do any worse can we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 but a change of manager could do wonders,look what happened to spurs when redknapp took over,even blackburn have managed to pick up 4 points in 2 games since allardyce joined........a decent manager injects some belief into dejected players. we need somebody to stop the slide,i dont know who that somebody is but i would get them here sooner rather than later. Totally agree - but who (of any note) would work with a Director of Football who's name is Rupert Lowe? Another Cloggy puppet maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BotleySaint Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 A new manager might at least try some different tactics to get the best out of his players, rather than playing the same ****e formation week in week out. One up front with no threat on the opposition goal. He might even keep a steady backline and stop chopping and changing week in week out? Why the F**K is Pearce not starting, for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 There may be alot of truth in this statement. God I hope not... but I think even a supported manager change now would find it difficult to undo the damage Lowe has now caused. I think there are parrallels with our previous relegation...even Harry couldnt save us last time... even before Lowe finally broke his will to be here. The point is though that the only time to make this change is NOW, if it is to have any impact. The transfer window is about to open. Apart from the not-to-be-sniffed-at agent costs, there is no reason why a decent manager could not make some changes bringing in some players, shipping out others, without affecting our wage bill massively. There are players out there who would relish a chance even for poor money, shrewd moves can be made by a manager with some detailed knowledge, or by bringing in one or two of his own men, just like WGS did with Pauls Williams and Telfer. We all scoffed at the time, and Williams did not last long, but for a few weeks those 2 guys made a real difference to us, far and above what their playing ability would have suggested. Without the opportunity of working within the transfer window, any new manager is effectively hamstrung in what can be done. A new manager may not necessarily bring us survival, but not acting now will almost certainly result in our relegation. There is so much to lose, the gamble has to be taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 A new manager so often brings about positive results to a club when he initially takes over. Nottingham Forest results could improve dramatically on the new appointment putting us in an even worse position Don't think I've ever known Saints to have encountered the New Manager effect on our own team. My guess is because the previous manager had been getting the players at his disposal punching so far over their weight, so to speak, that when they played at their realistic levels, they lost ground dramatically. Hence a new manager takes time before he gets the players to play much better than they would normally be capable of. It would explain Saints legendary inconsistency too. Because average players can't play brilliantly ever week. Saints have always been so cheap, they don't even realise when they are actually plumbing the depths of that dire policy. Saints players have nearly always had to raise their game to be successful. Apart from MLT and the teams that played in the late 70s to 80s. Even Strachan's team punched way above their weight. Witness the roaring success all of them have been since leaving Southampton FC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 The point is though that the only time to make this change is NOW, if it is to have any impact. The transfer window is about to open. Apart from the not-to-be-sniffed-at agent costs, there is no reason why a decent manager could not make some changes bringing in some players, shipping out others, without affecting our wage bill massively. There are players out there who would relish a chance even for poor money, shrewd moves can be made by a manager with some detailed knowledge, or by bringing in one or two of his own men, just like WGS did with Pauls Williams and Telfer. We all scoffed at the time, and Williams did not last long, but for a few weeks those 2 guys made a real difference to us, far and above what their playing ability would have suggested. Without the opportunity of working within the transfer window, any new manager is effectively hamstrung in what can be done. A new manager may not necessarily bring us survival, but not acting now will almost certainly result in our relegation. There is so much to lose, the gamble has to be taken. Agree. The only potential optimism that may allow that is Fulthorpe... whether he is genuine and can bring in Shearer with enough money to make a difference right now though seems doubly doubtful - firstly he does not seem to be making his bid and secondly Lowe seems intent on scuppering any deal. So we seem a little fooked until Lowe can be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Jason Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 So we all change manager. Then what? It can't work for everyone, can it? no your right, lets just sit here and watch this car crash of a season unfold! Lowe, his board and management are a complete joke and our once great club is dead untill they all go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 forest have made their change at the right time imo.just before the transfer window opens and in plenty of time for the new man to try and turn things around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egreog Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Transfer widow is irrelevant for Saints......new manager or not.......nobody wants to play for just a shambolic organisation......so Div 3 beckons........its inevitable.....there is no plan B!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabrone Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 If you want real managerial change you have to start with those that do the appointing. You can shout for a new manager but until Lowe goes we will stumble from one disastrous appointment to the next........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 If you want real managerial change you have to start with those that do the appointing. You can shout for a new manager but until Lowe goes we will stumble from one disastrous appointment to the next........... Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 and that looks unlikely this season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 and that looks unlikely this season Maybe. What worries me is when SCW appears instead of JP. How long before he's manager do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 wouldn't surprise me! more likely as a DoF role. Think a JP failure is more likely to bring down Lowe than any protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 If you want real managerial change you have to start with those that do the appointing. You can shout for a new manager but until Lowe goes we will stumble from one disastrous appointment to the next........... Agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 We might find that no worthwhile manager would want to come here, all the time Lowe runs the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 27 December, 2008 Share Posted 27 December, 2008 Don't think I've ever known Saints to have encountered the New Manager effect on our own team. Alan Ball springs to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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