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Is the experiment over?


bigdavewatson
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Great result and well chuffed for the boys and the 500 odd hardy souls who were there!

 

Is this the end of the experiment and the myth that our wonderful academy is the only way forward?

 

We only had 3 "home grown" players on the pitch and 3 on the bench. Has his lordship realised that the gamble is over and we need the blend?

 

I'm not saying that the future for the young lads isnt bright, just that most of what I've seen from the nippers simply isnt good enough right now for this league.

 

I looked at the team before the game and really fancied us for the first time in a long while, hopefully that kind of selection will continue.

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Great result and well chuffed for the boys and the 500 odd hardy souls who were there!

 

Is this the end of the experiment and the myth that our wonderful academy is the only way forward?

 

We only had 3 "home grown" players on the pitch and 3 on the bench. Has his lordship realised that the gamble is over and we need the blend?

 

I'm not saying that the future for the young lads isnt bright, just that most of what I've seen from the nippers simply isnt good enough right now for this league.

 

I looked at the team before the game and really fancied us for the first time in a long while, hopefully that kind of selection will continue.

 

 

I did not realise that the strategy was to have Academy only players I thought it was to have the blend as you suggested.

 

Having Academy only players is plainly ridiculous but having some who are up to the job makes financial sense.

 

If this strategy had been in place before and say Cranie and Blackstock where still playing perhaps there would have been no need to have had to buy in Thomas and BWP and we could have used the money spent there in a better way .

 

Because of money constraints it is not possible at the moment to bring many new costly players at the moment so we are using what players we have but in the future if we have the money I am sure we will be buying again and also selling.

 

But Wotton Perry Siejis Schenderlin Forecast Smith Holmes have been brought in this season with also loans coming in and SFC were hoping to play Svensson

 

All our best teams in the last forty five years always had a good proportion of home grown players but in the last years of the Premiership there were not many and that was one of the reasons we were relegated as we were having to buy virtually a whole team from outside

Edited by John B
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Great result and well chuffed for the boys and the 500 odd hardy souls who were there!

 

Is this the end of the experiment and the myth that our wonderful academy is the only way forward?

 

We only had 3 "home grown" players on the pitch and 3 on the bench. Has his lordship realised that the gamble is over and we need the blend?

 

I'm not saying that the future for the young lads isnt bright, just that most of what I've seen from the nippers simply isnt good enough right now for this league.

 

I looked at the team before the game and really fancied us for the first time in a long while, hopefully that kind of selection will continue.

 

Exactly what I thought when I saw the team sheet.

 

For the first time in ages I actually thought that team looks quite strong and I really fancy us here.

 

As you say it was a dusting of our Academy products, enhanced by others brought in and a number of older, experienced players.

 

Like you, I firmly believe the Academy has a big part to play in the future of this Club, but just not as big as I think Lowe (and maybe Jan) think, or now, perhaps thought.

 

It has to be a blend, a balance and what works best, as opposed to sticking to some dogma regardless of what it is achieving (or not achieving in our case).

 

The comments made by Jan recently with regards him not realising just what the Championship is like and that the older players can't play with the youngsters really worried me!!!!!!!!!!!!, so maybe I should be happy that perhaps the penny has dropped. That's if it has dropped of course and this wasn't just a one off.

 

Now all that is needed is for Jan to rid himself of the straight jacket of playing his Totale Voetball sysytem come what may. We need to be more flexible at home for a start.

 

Sadly, we have given ourselves a mountain to climb by employing a manager who has been learning on the job, and our policy of youth has also been a huge shackle that we need to rid ourselves if we are to survive.

 

Let's hope they've recognised the errors of their ways and can change things before it's too late.

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think it was more about

 

1) saving money -which they will keep doing!

 

2) giving younger players chance to train with first team and play more quickly -that is happening, look at Gobbern and McGlaggon etc.

 

One of first signings was Wootton, don't think there has been any change in their thinking

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Guys,

 

earlier in the seaon we were playing six or seven players with very little first team match experience, look at the team sheets from Blackpool or Barnsley at home as an example.

 

This team is significantly different. I actually believe in a number of the initiatives, but not playing a majority of highly inexperienced players at the same time combined with an inexperienced manager. How come we can afford this kind of blend now, but didnt field this kind of team at the beginning of the season?

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Exactly what I thought when I saw the team sheet.

 

For the first time in ages I actually thought that team looks quite strong and I really fancy us here.

 

As you say it was a dusting of our Academy products, enhanced by others brought in and a number of older, experienced players.

 

Like you, I firmly believe the Academy has a big part to play in the future of this Club, but just not as big as I think Lowe (and maybe Jan) think, or now, perhaps thought.

 

It has to be a blend, a balance and what works best, as opposed to sticking to some dogma regardless of what it is achieving (or not achieving in our case).

 

The comments made by Jan recently with regards him not realising just what the Championship is like and that the older players can't play with the youngsters really worried me!!!!!!!!!!!!, so maybe I should be happy that perhaps the penny has dropped. That's if it has dropped of course and this wasn't just a one off.

 

Now all that is needed is for Jan to rid himself of the straight jacket of playing his Totale Voetball sysytem come what may. We need to be more flexible at home for a start.

 

Sadly, we have given ourselves a mountain to climb by employing a manager who has been learning on the job, and our policy of youth has also been a huge shackle that we need to rid ourselves if we are to survive.

 

Let's hope they've recognised the errors of their ways and can change things before it's too late.

 

I agree with what do are saying especially regarding flexibility although I do not understand how you know what both JP and Lowe are thinking because they may agree with you

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Guys,

 

earlier in the seaon we were playing six or seven players with very little first team match experience, look at the team sheets from Blackpool or Barnsley at home as an example.

 

This team is significantly different. I actually believe in a number of the initiatives, but not playing a majority of highly inexperienced players at the same time combined with an inexperienced manager. How come we can afford this kind of blend now, but didnt field this kind of team at the beginning of the season?

 

 

I think the blend was similar at the start of the season

 

Svensson was playing Saijis was not

 

Gillett was playing Molyneux was not

 

Lallana was playing Saga was not.

 

 

but I maybe wrong but injuries to Svennson and Holmes and others together with the requirement to save money has contributed to the problem especially with the strikers

Edited by John B
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I think the balance between experience and youngsters was perfect yesterday. Apart from maybe a hard tackling midfielder next to Schneiderlin, but even that was sorted towards the end when we needed to shore things up.

 

In defence we had two in experienced players and two old heads. One youngster in midfield with three semi experienced players and upfront it was one and one. That's the same sort of balance most teams in this league have so it's hardly some radical new system we're playing.

 

As long as we keep that balance and can keep Saijis, Perry, Davis, Saga, Holmes and Schniederlin fit I think we should be ok. Signing a decent central midfielder on loan would be good as well, someone like Dailly would be perfect imo since he's also versatile.

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I think the blend was similar at the start of the season

 

Svensson was playing Size was not

 

Gillett was playing Molyneux was not

 

Lallana was playing Saga was not.

 

 

but I maybe wrong

 

At the start of the season we where playing quite well though, it was after the QPR game where things went to pot. Schneiderlin, Svensson and Holmes all being injured at the same time was probably the main reason as it screwed up the youngster/experience balance a fair bit.

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We only had 3 "home grown" players on the pitch and 3 on the bench. Has his lordship realised that the gamble is over and we need the blend?

 

We've really only been playing 4 home-growns for much of the season, James, Lallana, McG and Surman. Thats why Lowe's comments about playing young home-grown players has really been so laughable. The problem has been when we have not played enough experienced players, especially when Perry was mysteriously dropped. Things are looking a little better now, just hope that Rudi is not on his way after his recent comments.

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think it was more about

 

1) saving money -which they will keep doing!

 

2) giving younger players chance to train with first team and play more quickly -that is happening, look at Gobbern and McGlaggon etc.

 

One of first signings was Wootton, don't think there has been any change in their thinking

 

Look at our 12 acquisitions last summer and put them in the category of youth or experience and you have your answer to what the strategy was:

 

Old = Perry, Wotton

 

Middle = Pulis

 

Young = Forecast, Pekhart, Robertson, Pearce, Cork, Gasmi, Scheiderlin, Smith, (cant rememebr the other one).

 

The emphasis was quite clearly to bring in youngsters and on top of that we were heavily reliant on the youngsters we already had, and IMHO as much as lack of finances plays a part, the footballing strategy was the dominat factor.

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We've really only been playing 4 home-growns for much of the season, James, Lallana, McG and Surman. Thats why Lowe's comments about playing young home-grown players has really been so laughable. The problem has been when we have not played enough experienced players, especially when Perry was mysteriously dropped. Things are looking a little better now, just hope that Rudi is not on his way after his recent comments.

 

I thought Perry was ill with a virus which took along time to shake off.

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I agree with what do are saying especially regarding flexibility although I do not understand how you know what both JP and Lowe are thinking because they may agree with you

 

I don't know exactly what they are thinking, but we have heard the "youth" line trotted out by both of them on numerous occasions to start to get a feeling of what their strategy is (or hopefuly was!!!).

 

On top of that, you only have to look at the teams we have put out to see what the initial strategy was.

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I agree that there was a difference to the team and that yes, it made a difference. Even to the point of putting pressure on McGoaldrought to do some work by bringing in Saga.

 

However, the big problem is that I believe JP will be changing the team YET AGAIN next week. He said so in his post match interview on Radio Hants. Example: Lallana will come back from injury and be put straight back into the team regardless of the effect on other positions. This is one reason why the results are so poor IMO and JP needs to keep a team thats working consistent.

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We've really only been playing 4 home-growns for much of the season, James, Lallana, McG and Surman. Thats why Lowe's comments about playing young home-grown players has really been so laughable.

 

Absolutely, and the balance of the side was often stuffed with youngsters on loan or signed from elsewhere (Pekhart or Robertson, Cork, Pearce, Smith or Holmes, Schneiderlin).

 

The concept of building a team from our own academy has been found wanting as has playing a team with too many youngsters.

 

I soncerely hope the penny has dropped, because we can't have a repeat of the first half of the season.

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The overall balance looked better on Saturday but James is a liability, the defence is still being caught out by a quick mobile forward line and the service to the strikers is almost non-existent. Add to the mix that Barnsley looked altogether a fitter and more physical outfit and it's clear (to me anyway) that there is still much to be done. Make no mistake, Saturday's was a fortunate win and a good result is needed on Saturday if any new found confidence is to be maintained.

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I agree that there was a difference to the team and that yes, it made a difference. Even to the point of putting pressure on McGoaldrought to do some work by bringing in Saga.

 

However, the big problem is that I believe JP will be changing the team YET AGAIN next week. He said so in his post match interview on Radio Hants. Example: Lallana will come back from injury and be put straight back into the team regardless of the effect on other positions. This is one reason why the results are so poor IMO and JP needs to keep a team thats working consistent.

 

That's pretty crap if true, Lallana should be on the bench like any other player coming back from injury into a winning side.

 

I like the idea of McGoldrick and Saga forming a bit of a relationship and I don't really like Lallana on the wing. Lallana would be a decent impact sub as well, where he should stay for Doncaster imo.

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I agree that there was a difference to the team and that yes, it made a difference. Even to the point of putting pressure on McGoaldrought to do some work by bringing in Saga.

 

However, the big problem is that I believe JP will be changing the team YET AGAIN next week. He said so in his post match interview on Radio Hants. Example: Lallana will come back from injury and be put straight back into the team regardless of the effect on other positions. This is one reason why the results are so poor IMO and JP needs to keep a team thats working consistent.

 

 

Yes but injuries and suspensions have not helped.

 

 

Also if the team had been winning there would be no need to change it either.

 

Should Lallana play on Saturday ?

 

Does BWP justify a place

 

I agree with Andy above

Edited by John B
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That's pretty crap if true, Lallana should be on the bench like any other player coming back from injury into a winning side.

 

I like the idea of McGoldrick and Saga forming a bit of a relationship and I don't really like Lallana on the wing. Lallana would be a decent impact sub as well, where he should stay for Doncaster imo.

 

Completely agree - but just you watch - the team will be tinkered with and more than likely we will lose.

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The tinkering has contributed as much as the inexperience IMO.

 

We has Surman at left back, then Surman on the wing, then Surman in centre mid.

 

We had Mills at left back, then Rudi, now it looks like it will be Molyneux.

 

We've had a silly number of players on the right wing, can't be bothered to list them.

 

We had Cork at centre back, at right back for a little bit then in midfield.

 

The only real constants have been KD, James and McGoldrick.

 

Obviously this has been partly due to injuries, suspension etc. but at one stage it seemed to be a case of "which academy player or loanee can we give a run out to this week?"

 

Will be interesting to see what happens when Lallana is fit - Will McG be dropped to accommodate him behind Saga? Will Saga be dropped to accommodate him behind McG? Will he play on the right? Personally, I would keep him on the bench for now.

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The tinkering has contributed as much as the inexperience IMO.

 

We has Surman at left back, then Surman on the wing, then Surman in centre mid.

 

We had Mills at left back, then Rudi, now it looks like it will be Molyneux.

 

We've had a silly number of players on the right wing, can't be bothered to list them.

 

We had Cork at centre back, at right back for a little bit then in midfield.

 

The only real constants have been KD, James and McGoldrick.

 

Obviously this has been partly due to injuries, suspension etc. but at one stage it seemed to be a case of "which academy player or loanee can we give a run out to this week?"

 

Will be interesting to see what happens when Lallana is fit - Will McG be dropped to accommodate him behind Saga? Will Saga be dropped to accommodate him behind McG? Will he play on the right? Personally, I would keep him on the bench for now.

 

I thought most people thought Surman was not a full back

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Does BWP justify a place

 

 

I didn't go yesterday so can't comment on that but overall this season I think he deserves a place. He's at least got a goal threat and a bit of pace.

 

We need all the goals we can get and I think BWP has more chance of getting a goal from the right than Lallana.

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Think the only change is realising (or having no-one to take him) that we need an experienced forward.

 

Having our injured players return makes quite a big difference as well.

 

Holmes and Schniederlin are both so important to our game, we really miss them. Saejis replacing Svensson in defence as well.

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started season using Svensson, Perry, Wooton and Thomas as sub -perhaps average age is going down!

 

Think the only change is realising (or having no-one to take him) that we need an experienced forward.

 

I disagree we need a forward who can score goals whether experienced or not

 

 

Goal Scoring Forwards cost loads of money where do we get one from?

 

 

If they are scoring goals their clubs will not release them.

 

Surely if Rudi or Rasiak was sold we would have kept Stern John

Edited by John B
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So he made a change not a tinker

 

 

I thought it was difficult to tinker with a losing team anyway

 

Oh sorry, I clearly don't appreciate the subtle semantic differences between a change and a tinker. :(

 

My bad.

 

What if you make a change after a draw? Is that a tinker or a change? Perhaps it's a rotation?

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Oh sorry, I clearly don't appreciate the subtle semantic differences between a change and a tinker. :(

 

My bad.

 

What if you make a change after a draw? Is that a tinker or a change? Perhaps it's a rotation?

 

Yes Sorry I always think a tinker is a change for no real valid reason

 

Of course JP may have had the odd tinker but most of his changes are because of injuries and suspensions as you said.

 

Apart from the right wing where like me JP appears to have no idea who should be there.

 

 

I would like a winger but we dont seem to have one

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Saejis replacing Svensson in defence as well.

 

Leaving it this long to bring someone in to cover Svensson is poor IMHO. To rely on him making a full recovery was a serious error of judgement, leaving us with rookies form in house or on loan.

 

It's a crucial area that we should have sorted out pre season.

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Leaving it this long to bring someone in to cover Svensson is poor IMHO. To rely on him making a full recovery was a serious error of judgement, leaving us with rookies form in house or on loan.

 

It's a crucial area that we should have sorted out pre season.

 

Probably right although hindsight is a wonderful gift in these situations

 

But getting the right CB is important and there seems to be more available in the window than at other times

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What experiment? That was just invented on here. All we did was try to pick the best team from the players we could afford. Just happened all we could afford was kids. Now we have fewer injuries and a couple of experienced players in. Jan said he'd tracked saijs since the summer so hardly any change in approach.

 

Well perhaps rather than signing / loaning so many youngsters, many of whom didn't feature or weren't up to scratch when they did, had we signed the a player like Size or someone else with experience, rather than waste money we might have got there earlier.

 

Quality (and experience) over quantity would have been a better strategy last summer.

 

The term "experiment" may have been coined on here, but on the official site it's termed "revolutionary coaching set up" with an emphasis on youth. You must have been asleep from May thru Sept if you missed all those announcements from Lowe, Wilde, Jan, Wotte and the OS.

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What experiment? That was just invented on here. All we did was try to pick the best team from the players we could afford. Just happened all we could afford was kids. Now we have fewer injuries and a couple of experienced players in. Jan said he'd tracked saijs since the summer so hardly any change in approach.

 

 

SORRY but the signings during the summer indicated that to have experience was a bad thing and did not fit in with the revelutionary set up

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SORRY but the signings during the summer indicated that to have experience was a bad thing and did not fit in with the revelutionary set up

 

And Jan said as recently as the Palace game that the older players were not playing because they were not on the same wavelength as the youngsters!!!!!!

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Leaving it this long to bring someone in to cover Svensson is poor IMHO. To rely on him making a full recovery was a serious error of judgement, leaving us with rookies form in house or on loan.

 

It's a crucial area that we should have sorted out pre season.

 

How many years in a row have we said something similar about our CB position???? All the way back to when Svennson first got injured I reckon

 

Don't you love people who learn from their mistakes!

 

Going back to the point about signings - think again the balance wasn't right, but also to be fair IF the old heads had stayed fit (or been any good) then we may have had a slightly less bad 1st half. Still, HOPEFULLY we'll stumble into a balanced (AND settled) side for the rest of the season

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Yes Sorry I always think a tinker is a change for no real valid reason

 

Of course JP may have had the odd tinker but most of his changes are because of injuries and suspensions as you said.

 

Apart from the right wing where like me JP appears to have no idea who should be there.

 

I would like a winger but we dont seem to have one

 

Saga played on the wide right in a 4-5-1 for Poland in the Euro's. May be a concept for when Lallana is fit again. his work rate may help the balance in the side

 

But would prefer him in front of goal

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I'm not sure the experiment is over so to say (if it even was an experiment, its been tried before at various levels). When you look at the teamsheet yesterday we had loads of young players that have re-sale value and are perhaps cheaper salary wise. With James, Molyneux, Schneiderlin, Surman, BWP, DMG and Holmes we had 7 player that were 23 or younger. With Lallana fit I think it might become 8, I would say that the policy is still the same although we just brought in some extra talented youngsters from other clubs to add to the ones we had ourselves. The big difference yesterday was that we had Saeijs who took up the Killer role.

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I have tried to listen to some modern pop groups in order to have a conversation with them there young sprogs.

Killers, Kooks,Scouting for Girls etc but then find out they are all yesterdays news....So its back to the Archers for this old boy and talking on here, to fellow oldies, who like me, do not have a clue of this young persons world to-day. I think JP has the same problem of not being able to understand or communicate with the youngsters.

 

So like JP AND lOWEY, THE EXPERIMENT IS OVER FOR ME TOO, THANK GOODNESS.

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I think the balance between experience and youngsters was perfect yesterday. Apart from maybe a hard tackling midfielder next to Schneiderlin, but even that was sorted towards the end when we needed to shore things up.

.

 

You're right- we were/are crying out for bite in midfielder. Other than his run for the goal, Schneiderlin was pretty ineffectual and avoided any of the dirtier stuff. Barnsley bossed and ran through our midfield (Surman did have a good game but was far too isolated). This is an area if we need to shore up, esp if JP thinks Gillett and Wotton arent up to the task.

 

Balance wasnt very different yesterday. Size for Svennson. Saga is playing where Stern was used on and off. The day we regularly use more than 3 experienced outfield players (perry, size, saga) is the day we're more balanced.

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How many years in a row have we said something similar about our CB position???? All the way back to when Svennson first got injured I reckon

 

Don't you love people who learn from their mistakes!

 

Going back to the point about signings - think again the balance wasn't right, but also to be fair IF the old heads had stayed fit (or been any good) then we may have had a slightly less bad 1st half. Still, HOPEFULLY we'll stumble into a balanced (AND settled) side for the rest of the season

 

We all know that you need a strong spine, doesn't necessarily have to be old or experienced, but strong it must be.

 

A couple of decent centre halfs (maybe even three due to suspensions and injuries) is a pre requisite for me and for me we didn't address that deficiency.

 

Thomas was out long term, Svensson was a massive risk, as was relying on Lancashire. We didn't get Pearce in until about 4 months into the season and insisted in playing Cork our of position.

 

That's just poor by anyones standards:rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Now if JP played Rudi on the left in front of Molyneux (where BWP was yest and Rudi's natural position) and tried Euell in midfield where he's been willing to get stuck in (where Pearson used him with some effect last year) or signed an experienced/strong tackling midfielder, then it could be claimed that the experiment has been reassessed. But until then, dont kid yourselves.

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Saga played on the wide right in a 4-5-1 for Poland in the Euro's. May be a concept for when Lallana is fit again. his work rate may help the balance in the side

 

But would prefer him in front of goal

 

Yes I saw Saga last summer he looked quite good

 

But where did this Revolutionary New Experiment term come from.

 

I thought owing to lack of money we had to play with a lot of youngsters who hopefully would develop into good players in the future.

 

I thought it was a commonsense approach getting in old pros on high wages had failed and caused us serious financial harm

 

Of course the person who writes the Saints Web Pages may have as usual put a different spin on it

Edited by John B
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Surprise surprise, we recruit a big CCC type CB and we keep a clean sheet. If we keep Saga and Davis we might stay competitive. Skacel is almost certainly going to moved on but if we could recruit a solid, semi-experienced CM or RB with some of the money I could live with it whilst I like Rudi as a player. I think as fans we need to draw out the positives - Mills, Gobern, Lallana, McLaggon (sp) have all had first XI action and have some idea on what is now required for the future. Some young players like Lancashire haven't been up to it and Gillett has disappointed me as I felt he'd do well and would be lucky to get a new deal.

 

Nevertheless, we need a couple more experienced faces to blend with the better young players. Lallana can wait on the bench, that team yesterday would give Doncaster a tougher time next week. Looking forward to seeing Molyneux.

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Yes I saw Saga last summer he looked quite good

 

But where did this Revolutionary New Experiment term come from.

 

I thought owing to lack of money we had to play with a lot of youngsters who hopefully would develop into good players in the future.

 

I thought it was a commonsense approach getting in old pros on high wages had failed and caused us serious financial harm

 

Of course the person who writes the Saints Web Pages may have as usual put a different spin on it

 

You've hit the nail on the head, the spin was OTT but common sense seems to be at last prevailing and it does give the side a much better chance of staying at this level. We know the younger players that can cut it, we need a couple more experienced players on modest wages to help them through their development. Yesterday's team sheet just looked so much more balanced.

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I agree that there was a difference to the team and that yes, it made a difference. Even to the point of putting pressure on McGoaldrought to do some work by bringing in Saga.

 

However, the big problem is that I believe JP will be changing the team YET AGAIN next week. He said so in his post match interview on Radio Hants. Example: Lallana will come back from injury and be put straight back into the team regardless of the effect on other positions. This is one reason why the results are so poor IMO and JP needs to keep a team thats working consistent.

 

Stop it, you are not giving him sufficient time and space to re-write the history of the first half of the season.

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I think Gillett and Schneiderlin could be a very effective centre midfield partnership to be honest. Gillett was immense at the start of the season alongside Schneiderlin and him getting stuck in would allow morgan to use his class to spray the passes and add to the creative side of the team. We're not far away from havign a decent team at all, just need to be a bit more streetwise and a bit cleverer when we are going to play certain opposition. We seem to prepare for every game the same way, playing the same way which will not work. The game on saturday was one of the first times that we have set out to play in a different way and it worked. I do think howeverr that our passing game could work next week though, as Doncaster also play some good stuff.

 

UTS !

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