Other (non English) teams that are similar to Saints 'way' ?

[eddie]

Hi There,

 

Some history:

I've been supporting Saints a while now, as my dad is a supporter and grew up in Bassett (even though I live abroad now). I get to the occassional game.

 

It surprises me how much the club seem to fit most of what I'd look for in the ideal club. In terms of youth development, style of football played, quality foreign scouting and a smoothly run business as far as I can tell. The Southampton 'Way' seems to be a catchall phrase for a general way the club is run that seems positive and forward thinking. Saints seem to have made management and transfer decisions over the past 5-10 years that I'd say I'm overall happy with. There are other clubs in the league - West Ham, Swansea, Sunderland - who I would feel unhappy as a fan to support. I'm bias, but that's my feeling.

 

In terms of Saints there's work to be done still in terms of ticket prices, availability, grassroots football and the lingering feeling that, while a lot of the clubs communication is quite open with fans, there are lots of higher level decisions that feel very untransparent. The behind the scenes dealings probably go on in every club, though.

 

I'd love to get more into supporting/understanding European football because I ain't really got a clue other than the big clubs.

 

I am not so motivated if I don't have a club to follow and support.

 

My question:

 

What other clubs, for those of you that are into European football, would seem to be similar to Southampton in terms of history, football style, model etc. etc. and who might be a good tip to look into for a Southampton fan?

 

Caveat: I realise you can't force following one club over another, and it's random why we love some clubs and hate others. But still I think I'd rather try and follow a club, where I felt more of a connection to given their similar ethos.

[Heisenberg]

RB Leipzig are exciting - stuck 2 fingers up to the "football hierarchy"

 

The way we were heading when Nicola was in charge. They are us with wings

 

http://dailym.ai/23Yt4WN

Edited 14 July, 2017 by Heisenberg

[GGalpin]

Don't feed the troll...

[SKD]

RB Leipzig are exciting - stuck 2 fingers up to the "football hierarchy"

 

The way we were heading when Nicola was in charge.

 

http://dailym.ai/23Yt4WN

 

I agree we were heading that way with Nicola, however it wasn't his money he was spending. Had Markus still been around who knows where we'd be, but he's not and therefore we could not let Nicola continue to act the way he did and spend ridiculous money that wasn't his.

 

As for clubs that operate a similar business model to us, I'd look at Atletico Madrid, Dortmund, Monaco & Ajax (obliviously much bigger than us). You also have teams such as Sevilla / Bilbao from Spain and Hoffenheim / Hertha Berlin who are currently a good watch.

[Oldeuboi]

It's quite hard actually. I think we take the best from all football club methodology to make us quite unique. It is the rampant positivity throughout the club that makes us different.

 

Other clubs have excellent recruitment, other clubs have good academies and other clubs rely heavily on sports science and statistical analysis. I don't feel many clubs have found a way to combine all that the way we do under a working methodology.

 

I guess clubs like Sevilla would be the closest you can get to us, just because they repeatedly sell big and pick up shrewd bargains to replace. You can also draw some comparisons with Barcelona. Yes we don't have the absolute monstrous scope and level of their youth system, but we're quite similar in the way there is a clear pathway to the first team. All Barcelona teams play and train the same way, youth players are regularly invited to train with the first team and there's a big unity between youth and senior pros.

[verlaine1979]

It's quite hard actually. I think we take the best from all football club methodology to make us quite unique. It is the rampant positivity throughout the club that makes us different.

 

Other clubs have excellent recruitment, other clubs have good academies and other clubs rely heavily on sports science and statistical analysis. I don't feel many clubs have found a way to combine all that the way we do under a working methodology.

 

I guess clubs like Sevilla would be the closest you can get to us, just because they repeatedly sell big and pick up shrewd bargains to replace. You can also draw some comparisons with Barcelona. Yes we don't have the absolute monstrous scope and level of their youth system, but we're quite similar in the way there is a clear pathway to the first team. All Barcelona teams play and train the same way, youth players are regularly invited to train with the first team and there's a big unity between youth and senior pros.

 

Hmm so other clubs have good recruitment, statistical departments, youth programs and sports science. It sounds like the only thing separating us from the likes of Atletico, Sevilla, Ajax and others is that they win stuff from time to time, while we haven't won anything of significance for over forty years.

 

We're pretty well run, but let's not kid ourselves - we're copycats with most of this stuff, not trailblazers.

[Fan The Flames]

Hmm so other clubs have good recruitment, statistical departments, youth programs and sports science. It sounds like the only thing separating us from the likes of Atletico, Sevilla, Ajax and others is that they win stuff from time to time, while we haven't won anything of significance for over forty years.

 

We're pretty well run, but let's not kid ourselves - we're copycats with most of this stuff, not trailblazers.

 

No one said we are trailblazers, we execute some things well enabling our medium size club to punch slightly above its weight. That's not a bad achievement and with only three things to win in a season it is really no big deal that we haven't won anything for a while.

[eurosaint]

There are two things in life you cannot change, your mother and your football team !

So Saints are for life, for good or for bad !

As it happens right now, we are in quite a good phase so I'm happy !

No other team fits the bill !

[Ludwig]

There are two things in life you cannot change, your mother and your football team !

So Saints are for life, for good or for bad !

As it happens right now, we are in quite a good phase so I'm happy !

No other team fits the bill !

You can change your father? I don't think that's true. Not sure if you can change your brain or DNA either.

 

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[farawaysaint]

There are many who follow the Southampton model of developing youngsters and selling them on.

 

Clubs such as Feyenoord, Ajax, Sporting

[aintforever]

I'm pretty sure we didn't invent developing young players and selling them on. All clubs that have to do it.

[verlaine1979]

There are many who follow the Southampton model of developing youngsters and selling them on.

 

Clubs such as Feyenoord, Ajax, Sporting

 

Less Ajax following the Southampton model than Southampton following the Ajax model in reality.

[Dalek2003]

Norwich City.

[The9]

Hmm so other clubs have good recruitment, statistical departments, youth programs and sports science. It sounds like the only thing separating us from the likes of Atletico, Sevilla, Ajax and others is that they win stuff from time to time, while we haven't won anything of significance for over forty years.

 

We're pretty well run, but let's not kid ourselves - we're copycats with most of this stuff, not trailblazers.

 

We're trailblazers in being competent and making sensible decisions with a plan compared to much of the rest of English football. FWIW I'd say Spurs are the closest thing to Saints, basically the same stuff but with more money and a more attractive location.

[Heisenberg]

Manchester United have been producing players for years.

 

One thing we do differently is we look to sell for a profit while others look to development to compliment the 1st team.

[The9]

Manchester United have been producing players for years.

 

One thing we do differently is we look to sell for a profit while others look to development to compliment the 1st team.

 

You'll have to remind me the last time they produced a first teamer who played half of their games in a season from their Academy.

 

It's not like Man U have to worry about revenue generation, is it?

[farawaysaint]

Less Ajax following the Southampton model than Southampton following the Ajax model in reality.

 

Yeah, I didn't mean that the teams I mentioned were imitating us, more that they are clubs similarly modelled. We did not invent it.

[Heisenberg]

You'll have to remind me the last time they produced a first teamer who played half of their games in a season from their Academy.

 

It's not like Man U have to worry about revenue generation, is it?

 

Eh?

 

Manchester United have had a graduate from their youth system in every single match day squad since October 30, 1937. I believe thats still valid.

And, if that wasn’t impressive enough, up until 2011 there was a player from the youth system in every single starting XI for 73 years.

[The9]

Eh?

 

Manchester United have had a graduate from their youth system in every single match day squad since October 30, 1937. I believe thats still valid.

And, if that wasn’t impressive enough, up until 2011 there was a player from the youth system in every single starting XI for 73 years.

 

Having a graduate in the team briefly, or as an emergency measure, is not the same as having a successful player good enough to play a significant number of games who can be relied upon week in, week out. Which is what I was talking about. Having players you can actually use. So you'll forgive me for not thinking Fosu-Mensah, Borthwick-Jackson etc are worth discussing. Rashford and Lingard are in the conversation but neither played 30 matches last season when United played over 60.

 

Again, you'll have to remind me the last time they produced a first teamer who played half of their games in a season from their Academy. I suspect it's Januzaj in 2013/14 - where's he now?

 

They're not producing players they can pick for more than half their games in a season, and haven't for 10 years. They might have been "doing it for years" but we're better than them at it at the moment.

Edited 16 July, 2017 by The9

[Heisenberg]

Having a graduate in the team briefly, or as an emergency measure, is not the same as having a successful player good enough to play a significant number of games who can be relied upon week in, week out. Which is what I was talking about. Having players you can actually use. So you'll forgive me for not thinking Fosu-Mensah, Borthwick-Jackson etc are worth discussing. Rashford and Lingard are in the conversation but neither played 30 matches last season when United played over 60.

 

Again, you'll have to remind me the last time they produced a first teamer who played half of their games in a season from their Academy. I suspect it's Januzaj in 2013/14 - where's he now?

 

They're not producing players they can pick for more than half their games in a season, and haven't for 10 years. They might have been "doing it for years" but we're better than them at it at the moment.

 

Pogba

[austsaint]

Manchester United have been producing players for years.

 

One thing we do differently is we look to sell for a profit while others look to development to compliment the 1st team.

 

Glasgow; I'll pay you a rare compliment if you change your compliment to complement. Get out a bit and enjoy the Summer.

[oldskoolsi]

After years of being derided for their youth policy, Chelsea's seems to have clear strategy now. Buy up all the best youth, train them up and then sell them for a tidy profit. I'm sure others would argue that it's a failure because they're not getting into Chelsea's first team but they are getting in many other teams and Chelsea are making big money.

[Oldeuboi]

Pogba

 

Who they signed from Le Havre at 16 years old in a big tapping-up scandal? Does that really qualify?

 

I guess that puts Stephens and Gallagher under the "academy graduates" tag for us Even better!

[van Hanegem]

There are many who follow the Southampton model of developing youngsters and selling them on.

 

Clubs such as Feyenoord, Ajax, Sporting

 

Dutch clubs like Feyenoord and Ajax don't get much money from tv (around 8 million pounds each year) so they have to focus on their youth academy in order to get ahead. Playing in the PL means you do get stupendous amounds of money to buy players many European clubs can't afford. Good for Saints that they try not to go along with all the madness these days! On the other hand the youth academy does not deliver big talents for a long time now, or am I wrong? Maybe the Saints should follow Ajax in the way that they buy youngsters like Eriksen and Dolberg at a young age? Then again the competitions in the Netherlands, Danmark etc. are good breeding ponds.

[The9]

Pogba

 

Doesn't count if you have to pay £89 million to play your "academy product" because you let them go on a free transfer instead of actually putting them in the team. He had 3 sub appearances and they let him go for nothing.

 

Development done by Le Havre until 16 and then by Juventus.

 

Does nicely underline my point about them not needing to worry about generating revenue from selling players, in fact they can afford to take a massive hit just to cover one of their mistakes. We can't afford to do that.

Edited 16 July, 2017 by The9

[patred44]

I have seen 4 periods of progress from the Saints in the 70 years I have been supporting them.

The first 2 were under the guidance of Ted Bates and he based this growth on a few youngsters and some experienced journeymen.

Another period of success was McMenemy's time, based on good experienced players extending their careers, and using us as their last port of call before hanging up their boots.

None of those periods lasted too long, but comparing them to a 3rd Division football club, which we were when I first supported them, it was a success!

But none of those were long lasting as such, and we were never considered or perceived as a big club.

 

Now, this Liebherr 'successful' period is different..for a start, the club was no longer 'run' by the manager. The overriding progress was built on our academy, and younger recruits. We bought players with a resale value in mind, but that wasn't the be be-all, there were a few experienced players helping the cause. At first it got us promoted and into the PL, and gradually we progressed and our perception as a top team gained ground under the dictatorship of Cortese.

 

Since Reed has taken over from Cortese we have been selling our most valuable players every summer, and replacing them (if at all) with cheaper models.

How long this can be sustainable is open to question, already our progress has slowed. Maybe we can survive in the PL, maybe not?

Maybe like the other 'successful times' we will go backwards.

 

It remains to be seen if this model works before it can be claimed to be a successful way of running a club of our size and getting us into the 'big boys club'

Edited 18 July, 2017 by patred44

[eddie]

thanks for the replies. as per the original post, i'll check out sevilla and feyenoord. any suggestions from french, german or italian football?

 

 

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[the french scout]

any suggestions from french, german or italian football?

 

The whole french Ligue 1 (except for Paris Saint Germain and Olympique de Marseille) is about developping young players then selling them.

France is the second country (after Brazil) in number of players playing abroad.

The most efficient clubs at this are Olympique Lyonnais and Stade Rennais.

 

There is no club who really has a philosophy of quality football, french managers tend to prefer a defensive style.

There were a good example of a club what had the "Southampton way", it was FC Nantes Atlantique before Waldemar Kita bought it and ripped apart all the development team and philosophy of offensive and pleasant football.

 

Lille was bought last year by a new owner and it seems it will follow this philosophy.

Marcelo Bielsa is the new coach and they bought a lot of young prospect this summer and last winter.

[Pierre]

Less Ajax following the Southampton model than Southampton following the Ajax model in reality.

 

Sparta is more like Saints and it's not just the kit. Breeding lots of talent but always forced to sell to the big teams like PSV, Ajax and Feyenoord. Often when they're very young and not even in the first team yet

[NorthamSteve]

Pogba

 

Doesn't count if you have to pay £89 million to play your "academy product" because you let them go on a free transfer instead of actually putting them in the team. He had 3 sub appearances and they let him go for nothing.

 

Development done by Le Havre until 16 and then by Juventus.

 

Does nicely underline my point about them not needing to worry about generating revenue from selling players, in fact they can afford to take a massive hit just to cover one of their mistakes. We can't afford to do that.

 

I'll have a go. Jesse Lingard.

[DRAGONZ_RULE]

The whole french Ligue 1 (except for Paris Saint Germain and Olympique de Marseille) is about developping young players then selling them.

France is the second country (after Brazil) in number of players playing abroad.

The most efficient clubs at this are Olympique Lyonnais and Stade Rennais.

 

There is no club who really has a philosophy of quality football, french managers tend to prefer a defensive style.

There were a good example of a club what had the "Southampton way", it was FC Nantes Atlantique before Waldemar Kita bought it and ripped apart all the development team and philosophy of offensive and pleasant football.

 

Lille was bought last year by a new owner and it seems it will follow this philosophy.

Marcelo Bielsa is the new coach and they bought a lot of young prospect this summer and last winter.

Why doesn't Monaco count in this discussion? They buy young players on the cheap, develop them into superstars and sell them for tens of millions ... all the while attempting to play attacking, exciting football.

 

Mbappe, Lemar, Bernardo Silva, Fabinho, Mendy, Sidibe, Jemerson etc...

 

And yeah they may not have come through their youth setup, but let's be realistic about how many youth in Monaco play football haha - they're all sipping champagne on their parents yachts!

[Gemmel]

 

Since Reed has taken over from Cortese we have been selling our most valuable players every summer, and replacing them (if at all) with cheaper models.

 

 

I think it's only fair to remember that there was only one player the big boys wanted during that time and certainly are most valuable...... Oh and Cortese sold him

[Heisenberg]

http://dailym.ai/2trFpMw

[the french scout]

Why doesn't Monaco count in this discussion? They buy young players on the cheap, develop them into superstars and sell them for tens of millions ... all the while attempting to play attacking, exciting football.

 

Mbappe, Lemar, Bernardo Silva, Fabinho, Mendy, Sidibe, Jemerson etc...

 

And yeah they may not have come through their youth setup, but let's be realistic about how many youth in Monaco play football haha - they're all sipping champagne on their parents yachts!

 

Yes you're right, that's what Monaco did for the last 2-3 seasons, but only because their owner lost a lot of money (half of it) during his divorce.

The initial project was to buy confirmed players (Falcao, Moutinho, Ricardo Carvalho, Eric Abidal, Jérémy Toulalan, Dimitar Berbatov, ...).