The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[Gloucester Saint]

2 hours ago, rooney said:

I can remember when Harold Wilson found a safe labour seat for Patrick Walker as he wanted him for Foreign Secretary, and the voters did not elect him.

Only a 5k majority last time, far from certain I agree.

Burnham is popular up there though and suspect he would win.

His comments about the economy worry me as much as Farage, Tice and Polanski, but he’s bound to appeal to Labour’s core and if they win much of that back, they might end up as the largest party in a 5-way race because the wheels are starting to come off for Farage.

Shit for the country but that’s been true for 10 years now. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

5 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Only a 5k majority last time, far from certain I agree.

Burnham is popular up there though and suspect he would win.

His comments about the economy worry me as much as Farage, Tice and Polanski, but he’s bound to appeal to Labour’s core and if they win much of that back, they might end up as the largest party in a 5-way race because the wheels are starting to come off for Farage.

Shit for the country but that’s been true for 10 years now. 

Picking up on your worries about the economy: It took a flexible centrist to get them into office.

Once there, due to the size of the majority, there were still large blocks of interest in areas on the left too. 

This is just a takeover of the electable part by the unelectable part (although there are even more unelectable parts still in there)

As you say, Burnham may attract a core support. And certainly the unions and left. If he gets to implement them all, it's going to cost. They didn't say much before getting into office. But one thing they repeated was that everything had been costed.

Throwing that out the window is going to leave them back in the wilderness again. 

For balance, a reform person praised Burnham for reaching out to hear different views. He was complimentary about him having values that made the contest with reform good for politics.

Edited Friday at 13:38 by Holmes_and_Watson

[egg]

The markets are not liking the idea of Burnham. Pound and FTSE down, and gilts up to 2008 levels, ie worse than Truss levels. Not ideal. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czr2pl5lj84o

[iansums]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

The markets are not liking the idea of Burnham. Pound and FTSE down, and gilts up to 2008 levels, ie worse than Truss levels. Not ideal. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czr2pl5lj84o

Burnham comes across very well and seems to have some charisma, unlike Starmer. I do though worry about his economic policies and perhaps most worrying of all, he wears a T-shirt with a jacket, horrible look.

[egg]

Just now, iansums said:

Burnham comes across very well and seems to have some charisma, unlike Starmer. I do though worry about his economic policies and perhaps most worrying of all, he wears a T-shirt with a jacket, horrible look.

He comes across as a Gallagher who couldn't make the band to me, so had a crack at politics instead. I don't see an appeal far beyond his own doorstep, and I share your concern about economic policy. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

It's Josh Simons stepping aside.

Director of Labour Together. That was Morgan McSweeney's (with mentoring by Epstein best pal Mandelson's) vehicle to get shot of Corbyn by any means, and get Starmer in as Labour leader.

Labour together, funded by the traditional left of venture capitalism, and hedge fund managers, that they got in trouble for not declaring.

And the organisation that looked to dig dirt on journalists that found them out/ revealed their inner workings. I remember interviews with those involved pleading that investigators had gone beyond their brief. Only for places like Private Eye to be reporting that they couldn't keep their mouths shut about all the things they'd found out, and knew all about what was going on.

I think they pretended they were looking for leaks. For that, they could have just asked Josh Simons. Before he was McSweeney's pal, he was a policy advisor for Corbyn, before getting fired for leaking information.

Simons seems to have been happy moving from one part of the party to the other when it suited. He's clearly not bothered about little things like free speech or being front and centre of now tarnished organisations. Went to McSweeney because Corbyn dumped him. Went to Burnham because McSweeney got dumped. 

Somehow, his "best for the party and country" reasons for stepping down aren't very believable. I wonder what deal he's struck, and where he'll reappear next.

Unless voters look at that record, look at Burnham making a deal with it, and decide to vote elsewhere.

[Dr Who?]

10 hours ago, egg said:

The markets are not liking the idea of Burnham. Pound and FTSE down, and gilts up to 2008 levels, ie worse than Truss levels. Not ideal. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czr2pl5lj84o

He has to win the by-election first, and then the leadership race, but I can see everything taking shape already. He already has the support and Kier is on the rocks. But it will all hinge on the by-election in June. 

For me he is a great local leader, but nationwide and on key policies I think he will fall very short and be out of his depth. 

[The Kraken]

11 hours ago, Dr Who? said:

He has to win the by-election first, and then the leadership race, but I can see everything taking shape already. He already has the support and Kier is on the rocks. But it will all hinge on the by-election in June. 

For me he is a great local leader, but nationwide and on key policies I think he will fall very short and be out of his depth. 

The electorate also historically don’t take too kindly to new leaders being parachuted in without being voted for at a general.  Blair and Brown’s deal looked grubby. Truss was a complete and utter head case but nobody apart from a few Tory nutters wanted anything to do with her, Sunak did a poor job and was tainted by all that went before him.

I think the visuals of getting Burnham in aren’t good at all.

Edited yesterday at 09:27 by The Kraken

[Dr Who?]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

The electorate also historically don’t take too kindly to new leaders being parachuted in without being voted for at a general.  Blair and Brown’s deal looked grubby. Truss was a complete and utter head case but nobody apart from a few Tory nutters wanted anything to do with her, Sunak did a poor job and was tainted by all that went before him.

I think the visuals of getting Burnham in aren’t good at all.

Also Labour are coming well off of their mandate that got them voted into government. Well I know a big part was a vote against the Tories that also help, but you get my point. The people will want another go at voting… well it’s been a couple of years! 

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

The people will want another go at voting…

Apart from IanSums.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

The electorate also historically don’t take too kindly to new leaders being parachuted in without being voted for at a general.  Blair and Brown’s deal looked grubby.

Brown would probably have won an election had he called one earlier. Jim Callaghan was also popular prior to The Winter of discontent & Maggie wasn’t as formidable, I guess having 2 General elections in ‘74 put him of calling one early ‘76
 

I think the Tories got too carried away with Major not calling one and winning the subsequent election. However, had he called one early, he’d probably have got a bigger majority than he ended up getting. 
 

There’s no doubt in my mind that if Burnham wins the leadership and then goes to the country for another mandate, he’ll win (maybe a reduced majority, but still a decent working one). Obviously he doesn’t need to, and I’m not saying he morally should do (I don’t believe he should). But tactically it makes absolute sense. 

[iansums]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Apart from IanSums.

I want to vote, just not allowed 🥺

[The Kraken]

8 hours ago, iansums said:

I want to vote, just not allowed 🥺

And nor should you be. You just remember that.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Did Streeting start talking about wanting to rejoin the EU because it's something he's passionate about? Or is it an easy way to make Burnham's by-election much harder, by turning it into a mini-brexit vote?

Not that Reform weren't motivated before, but that should see their supporters make sure they turn out.

[AlexLaw76]

Good news, the "North of England" will potentially submit a bid to his the Summer Olympics

🤣

[iansums]

8 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Did Streeting start talking about wanting to rejoin the EU because it's something he's passionate about? Or is it an easy way to make Burnham's by-election much harder, by turning it into a mini-brexit vote?

Not that Reform weren't motivated before, but that should see their supporters make sure they turn out.

It would be scandalous to rejoin the EU, the country voted to leave, full stop. I voted to remain btw

[Holmes_and_Watson]

17 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Good news, the "North of England" will potentially submit a bid to his the Summer Olympics

🤣

Nothing at all to do with Burnham's upcoming by-election, of course.

Just shaking my head at the layers of divide in "North" for an Olympic bid.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

11 minutes ago, iansums said:

It would be scandalous to rejoin the EU, the country voted to leave, full stop. I voted to remain btw

"Leave means Stay!"

Quite creepy typing that. 

[whelk]

2 hours ago, iansums said:

It would be scandalous to rejoin the EU, the country voted to leave, full stop. I voted to remain btw

Assume he wasn’t saying without a referendum?

[egg]

3 hours ago, iansums said:

It would be scandalous to rejoin the EU, the country voted to leave, full stop. I voted to remain btw

That was then. The country didn't know what sort of Brexit they were getting, and were plainly missoold. 

Regardless, it's been a load of shite, and needs revisiting. 

[badgerx16]

4 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Good news, the "North of England" will potentially submit a bid to his the Summer Olympics

🤣

 

3 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Nothing at all to do with Burnham's upcoming by-election, of course.

Just shaking my head at the layers of divide in "North" for an Olympic bid.

Where does "North" start ? We are near Lancaster but Berwick is 120 miles North of us.

My yougest son says France stsrts south of the Mersey.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

45 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

 

Where does "North" start ? We are near Lancaster but Berwick is 120 miles North of us.

My yougest son says France stsrts south of the Mersey.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 hours ago, whelk said:

Assume he wasn’t saying without a referendum?

From Beeb...

"He made clear this could only happen if a new mandate..."

so, yup a new...oh, hang on...

"...was secured, such as at a general election."

so, not a specific Brexit vote.

[Challenger]

5 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Good news, the "North of England" will potentially submit a bid to his the Summer Olympics

🤣

No doubt it will have a Coronation Street theme to it.

Edited 6 hours ago by Challenger

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, egg said:

That was then. The country didn't know what sort of Brexit they were getting, and were plainly missoold. 

 

This is just a ridiculous argument. “Brexit” just means being outside the European Union, everything else is decided by the Government. Had Corbyn won in 2017 or 19, the country would look a lot different than it does today. Would that be a different Brexit, of course not. It would just be the country being run differently outside of the EU. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Lord Duckhunter

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

This is just a ridiculous argument. “Brexit” just means being outside the European Union, everything else is decided by the Government. Had Corbyn won in 2017 or 19, the country would look a lot different than it does today. Would that be a different Brexit, of course not. It would just be the country being run differently outside of the EU. 

It's only a shite argument if you wanted Brexit and are happy with what you got. To anyone else, it's logical. 

Regardless, it's not been a success, so warrants a rethink. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

It's only a shite argument if you wanted Brexit and are happy with what you got.

I’m not happy with what I got, but it’s not because of Brexit. It’s because of the elected UK Government, Tories with their Lib Dem tribute act and this useless lot. What if you wanted Brexit, but didn’t want Starmer, or wanted Brexit, but wanted Corbyn. If Scotland becomes independent & 10 years and 3 elections down the line the country is struggling, is it independence fault, or the Government making horrendous decisions. Brexit is just being outside the EU, what you do outside of it is down to the UK government. You lot will still be blaming Brexit in 20 years time, it’s ridiculous. 

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, egg said:

It's only a shite argument if you wanted Brexit and are happy with what you got. To anyone else, it's logical. 

Regardless, it's not been a success, so warrants a rethink. 

We'd be entering with different terms though so it's not a rethink. It's a whole new concept. 

[egg]

27 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

We'd be entering with different terms though so it's not a rethink. It's a whole new concept. 

I'm fine with that. Not in this term though - any government needs a mandate to look at it afresh. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm fine with that. Not in this term though - any government needs a mandate to look at it afresh. 

Which is fine. Just making the point that it's incorrect to refer it as a rethink. It would be signing up to something completely new under brand new times that we haven't had before. 

[Weston Super Saint]

13 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Which is fine. Just making the point that it's incorrect to refer it as a rethink. It would be signing up to something completely new under brand new times that we haven't had before. 

But the point of Brexit was to give UK plc the freedom to choose what is best for UK plc. Why shouldn't that include deals with the EU if that is better than the current situation?

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

But the point of Brexit was to give UK plc the freedom to choose what is best for UK plc. Why shouldn't that include deals with the EU if that is better than the current situation?

I wasn't arguing that. 

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I wasn't arguing that. 

Apologies, I assumed you were agreeing that to do what is potentially best for the country would require a new mandate to be voted in by the electorate.

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Apologies, I assumed you were agreeing that to do what is potentially best for the country would require a new mandate to be voted in by the electorate.

Of course it should be voted in. I was simply querying the language used. The word rethink implies that there would be an opportunity to return to the status quo prior to Brexit. That is not the case and it's an entirely new situation. 

[egg]

43 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Which is fine. Just making the point that it's incorrect to refer it as a rethink. It would be signing up to something completely new under brand new times that we haven't had before. 

Rethinking being outside of the EU is a rethink. I'm not sure what we're not agreeing on! 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Rethinking being outside of the EU is a rethink. I'm not sure what we're not agreeing on! 

Don't worry about it. It was a really basic point that's spanned about five posts now. It's not important. 

[Weston Super Saint]

34 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Of course it should be voted in. I was simply querying the language used. The word rethink implies that there would be an opportunity to return to the status quo prior to Brexit. That is not the case and it's an entirely new situation. 

So you are arguing that Brexit gave us the freedom to decide what is best for us, without the need to vote.

My point is we don't need to vote again. Brexit gave us the mandate to do what is right for us. Nowhere does it say that cannot be re-establishing a relationship with Europe.