The Burnham Years - Can the new(ish) broom sweep clean?

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Lego is fucking expensive TBF.

Whatever happened to boxes of generic bricks that encouraged you to use your imagination ?

 

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Whatever happened to boxes of generic bricks that encouraged you to use your imagination ?

 

Still selling them TBF.

[Sir Ralph]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4k2djd5qpo
 

I like the policy and like most think it’s a positive move. Using the education system to actually prepare kids for the real world shocker!

Edited 12 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[whelk]

8 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4k2djd5qpo
 

I like the policy and like most think it’s a positive move. Using the education system to actually prepare kids for the real world shocker!

Yes agree and mad how many graduates we have now with huge debt and not equipped with requisite skills. I feel sorry for these poor kids who went in with high expectations. All the kids need hope and aspirations and clear many understandably have very little.

This is sort of thing Starmer could have got going two years ago to show they meant business about changing things.

 

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yes agree and mad how many graduates we have now with huge debt and not equipped with requisite skills. I feel sorry for these poor kids who went in with high expectations. All the kids need hope and aspirations and clear many understandably have very little.

This is sort of thing Starmer could have got going two years ago to show they meant business about changing things.

 

Just needs a little bit of joined up thinking, that's all.

[iansums]

3 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4k2djd5qpo
 

I like the policy and like most think it’s a positive move. Using the education system to actually prepare kids for the real world shocker!

Love it, well done Burnham, this is exactly what is needed. I've long thought that were too many kids going to Uni for pointless degrees, it should really be for the elite and/or key professions. Nice to us all in agreement for once.

[Sir Ralph]

25 minutes ago, iansums said:

Love it, well done Burnham, this is exactly what is needed. I've long thought that were too many kids going to Uni for pointless degrees, it should really be for the elite and/or key professions. Nice to us all in agreement for once.

Absolutely now for the tax cuts 😂

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, iansums said:

Love it, well done Burnham, this is exactly what is needed. I've long thought that were too many kids going to Uni for pointless degrees, it should really be for the elite and/or key professions. Nice to us all in agreement for once.

As proof I'm only in the centrist club because my views cancel out, that pushed my inner socialist button. 🙂

Who are these elite people for whom university should be for?

Firstly, I have a button that rejects "elite" on principal.

Thirdly, (inside SaintsWeb gag, from when @Matthew Le God was telling us how smart he was, only to not be able to count to two.)

Secondly, what are the key professions, and is university the best place for people to get the key skills for those professions?

Thirdly, is a personal anecdote. When I was at Big School, I had to do a day release at a technical college for a while, as they were building new labs. The people on the similar courses there were brighter and more technically minded. They were the people you'd actually depend on, if you wanted something done, over our lot.

Even then Big Schools were more concerned with their own profits than courses. In the times I've been back, that's only accelerated. 

There are "pointless degrees" and there are also plenty of seemingly useful ones, that aren't fit for purpose. 

It's been an industry for a long time now. Burnham's focus on technical skills are welcome. But it's just part of a needed overhaul.

[iansums]

37 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

As proof I'm only in the centrist club because my views cancel out, that pushed my inner socialist button. 🙂

Who are these elite people for whom university should be for?

Firstly, I have a button that rejects "elite" on principal.

Thirdly, (inside SaintsWeb gag, from when @Matthew Le God was telling us how smart he was, only to not be able to count to two.)

Secondly, what are the key professions, and is university the best place for people to get the key skills for those professions?

Thirdly, is a personal anecdote. When I was at Big School, I had to do a day release at a technical college for a while, as they were building new labs. The people on the similar courses there were brighter and more technically minded. They were the people you'd actually depend on, if you wanted something done, over our lot.

Even then Big Schools were more concerned with their own profits than courses. In the times I've been back, that's only accelerated. 

There are "pointless degrees" and there are also plenty of seemingly useful ones, that aren't fit for purpose. 

It's been an industry for a long time now. Burnham's focus on technical skills are welcome. But it's just part of a needed overhaul.

Yeah, Elite was the wrong word (I thought that at the time but couldn't be arsed to change it), but I think you know what I meant, those with high intelligtence wanting to study nuclear physics etc. By professions, I mean Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants etc. 

[Farmer Saint]

46 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

As proof I'm only in the centrist club because my views cancel out, that pushed my inner socialist button. 🙂

Who are these elite people for whom university should be for?

Firstly, I have a button that rejects "elite" on principal.

Thirdly, (inside SaintsWeb gag, from when @Matthew Le God was telling us how smart he was, only to not be able to count to two.)

Secondly, what are the key professions, and is university the best place for people to get the key skills for those professions?

Thirdly, is a personal anecdote. When I was at Big School, I had to do a day release at a technical college for a while, as they were building new labs. The people on the similar courses there were brighter and more technically minded. They were the people you'd actually depend on, if you wanted something done, over our lot.

Even then Big Schools were more concerned with their own profits than courses. In the times I've been back, that's only accelerated. 

There are "pointless degrees" and there are also plenty of seemingly useful ones, that aren't fit for purpose. 

It's been an industry for a long time now. Burnham's focus on technical skills are welcome. But it's just part of a needed overhaul.

One of my friends did "Surf Studies" at University - I shit you not.

Amazingly though, he had more hours of lectures per week than I did for my Law degree.

Edited 7 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, iansums said:

Yeah, Elite was the wrong word (I thought that at the time but couldn't be arsed to change it), but I think you know what I meant, those with high intelligtence wanting to study nuclear physics etc. By professions, I mean Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants etc. 

Accountants you definitely don't need a degree.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 minute ago, Farmer Saint said:

One of my friends did "Surf Studies" at University - I shit you not.

Fluid mechanics?
Internet Architecture?

[iansums]

5 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Accountants you definitely don't need a degree.

Nor for lawyers, there are other routes as my daughter discovered with some of her work colleagues.

[Winnersaint]

2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

One of my friends did "Surf Studies" at University - I shit you not.

That's got broad employability appeal. However, people are starting to question degrees in the big humanities subjects, you know those that develop high level critical thinking skills, not just things like English Lit or Early Medieval Studies or other niche courses, but History and Geography. Both subjects develop a wide skill set which has in the past made graduates in them highly employable beyond just teaching and academia. 

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Accountants you definitely don't need a degree.

For many people the degree is a mark of a level of educational attainment rather than a step on a specific related career ladder. My degree is in Microbiology and I spent my entire career in IT, specifically machine architecture and technical support, then later networks and IT Security. Our youngest son is actually an accountant, his degree is in Engineering.

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

For many people the degree is a mark of a level of educational attainment rather than a step on a specific related career ladder. My degree is in Microbiology and I spent my entire career in IT, specifically machine architecture and technical support, then later networks and IT Security. Our youngest son is actually an accountant, his degree is in Engineering.

Absolutely it does - mine are Law and Economics and I used to own a Software company. 

I just used to find it funny that they would have that as a subject.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

50 minutes ago, iansums said:

Yeah, Elite was the wrong word (I thought that at the time but couldn't be arsed to change it), but I think you know what I meant, those with high intelligtence wanting to study nuclear physics etc. By professions, I mean Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants etc. 

Thanks for letting me have my grump. I enjoyed that. 🙂

I've found "intelligence" to mean different things over the years, particularly when having to be applied.

Focus, wisdom, attitude, willpower, resilience, communication and retention all intertwine too, resulting in a useful skillset. I've known people who were very intelligent, but in a very focused way. They suffered academically and in the workplace. I've known plenty of others with great qualifications who I'd not ask to turn on a light. I'm sure we've all met people falling I to different categories.

My point being that intelligence is not enough on it's own, and really has a broader definition. Also, that Big School courses aren't necessarily the best places to not only show intelligence, but to show that you'll be useful in a working environment.

I see that 2 of the 3 professions have already been noted, by yourself as not really needing a degree. I'd argue that Doctors really have their own graduate/post graduate/specialty pathway that is distinct from a lot of other courses.

Putting myself back in grump mode, apart from unis being based for the  elite, the intelligent and/or for key professions, I do agree that the shift in focus is a good step. 🙂

[iansums]

I remember at college in a Maths A-Level class shortly before the end of the second year, the teacher going round the whole class asking their plans post-college. Everyone said University until he came to me, ‘I’m getting a job’ I said. I’d had enough of full time education. (A lack of intelligence didn’t help either  to be honest).

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 minute ago, iansums said:

I remember at college in a Maths A-Level class shortly before the end of the second year, the teacher going round the whole class asking their plans post-college. Everyone said University until he came to me, ‘I’m getting a job’ I said. I’d had enough of full time education. (A lack of intelligence didn’t help either  to be honest).

Yup. Different life paths. circumstances and drives also make a huge difference. That results in loads of talented people with all sorts of backgrounds and academic achievements.
 

[Winnersaint]

I've been hearing if you are an engineer on the continent you're almost revered as are teachers, here we barely give those occupations house room. I wonder why?

[Holmes_and_Watson]

35 minutes ago, Winnersaint said:

I've been hearing if you are an engineer on the continent you're almost revered as are teachers, here we barely give those occupations house room. I wonder why?

Turns out that's just a romance scam to get engineers over to France to fix things, while locked in captivity.

[Gloucester Saint]

2 hours ago, Winnersaint said:

I've been hearing if you are an engineer on the continent you're almost revered as are teachers, here we barely give those occupations house room. I wonder why?

They used to be, look at the adulation of IBK Brunel and his structures (eg the marvellous Tamar Bridge). Even a university in his name. Architects are well known in the public real pm but it doesn’t work without engineers. 

 

[Gloucester Saint]

3 hours ago, Winnersaint said:

That's got broad employability appeal. However, people are starting to question degrees in the big humanities subjects, you know those that develop high level critical thinking skills, not just things like English Lit or Early Medieval Studies or other niche courses, but History and Geography. Both subjects develop a wide skill set which has in the past made graduates in them highly employable beyond just teaching and academia. 

Absolutely and I’d add those to the good core list @iansums gave earlier, especially in the era of AI where they’re essential to stand out in the market.

I’d further add: Modern Languages (you need to understand Russian well beyond translation to really understand which Baltic state Putin’s generals are eyeing up. Or to seal that complex export supply contract with the Japanese)

Quantitive social sciences and methods (especially statistical analysis) - impossible to make evidence-based decisions on healthcare and economic resources without these skills in the building as an underpinning.

I think universities might become more horses for courses in terms of education and research offer.

 

[egg]

4 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

For many people the degree is a mark of a level of educational attainment rather than a step on a specific related career ladder. My degree is in Microbiology and I spent my entire career in IT, specifically machine architecture and technical support, then later networks and IT Security. Our youngest son is actually an accountant, his degree is in Engineering.

A degree merely shows that someone finished some studies, and is likely to be at least moderately intelligent. 

I love the push for vocational studies. I'd also like to see a huge push on apprenticeships. 

[Weston Super Saint]

37 minutes ago, egg said:

A degree merely shows that someone finished some studies, and is likely to be at least moderately intelligent. 

I love the push for vocational studies. I'd also like to see a huge push on apprenticeships. 

Not sure I'd want my surgeon to have just completed their apprenticeship - although I suppose they do to a certain extent after five years of further study!

[Holmes_and_Watson]

17 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not sure I'd want my surgeon to have just completed their apprenticeship - although I suppose they do to a certain extent after five years of further study!

"No Weston. The bottle of whisky isn't to help with your pain. We find being blind drunk helps with the surgeon's guilt. Now, let the sawbones do her work."

[egg]

34 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not sure I'd want my surgeon to have just completed their apprenticeship - although I suppose they do to a certain extent after five years of further study!

Ha!! But your accountant or lawyer? 

Degree equivalents, for the latter two, earned while training and earning are common.

By their late 20's, those apprentice professionals have 10 years in the saddle, no study debt, and are several years ahead of their graduate peers on the ladder. 

I know you jest, but as it can work for lawyers and accountants, why not other professionals?

An apprentice dentist, for example, could work as a dental nurse and / or hygienist and/or within the business whilst studying for the real job, then qualify with shed loads of experience in the other roles. 

There are very few professions that actually necessitate an undergraduate degree before an individual starts their journey. 

[Weston Super Saint]

12 minutes ago, egg said:

Ha!! But your accountant or lawyer? 

Degree equivalents, for the latter two, earned while training and earning are common.

By their late 20's, those apprentice professionals have 10 years in the saddle, no study debt, and are several years ahead of their graduate peers on the ladder. 

I know you jest, but as it can work for lawyers and accountants, why not other professionals?

An apprentice dentist, for example, could work as a dental nurse and / or hygienist and/or within the business whilst studying for the real job, then qualify with shed loads of experience in the other roles. 

There are very few professions that actually necessitate an undergraduate degree before an individual starts their journey. 

I wholeheartedly agree. I always value common sense over "book smarts".

There are some professions though that do need a higher level of education, that was my point.

Definitely no need whatsoever for nurses to have to study to degree level, that is lunacy.

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I wholeheartedly agree. I always value common sense over "book smarts".

There are some professions though that do need a higher level of education, that was my point.

Definitely no need whatsoever for nurses to have to study to degree level, that is lunacy.

For me, it's when that degree or degree equivalent is needed. A kid with 3 decent a levels is plainly degree able, but why the need to secure that degree before working in lesser roles related to their profession of choice. They can then study part time to get their qualifications whilst progressing their training. 

Lawyer apprentices, for example, will start in a secretarial type roles, then progress to paralegal, then in a quasi lawyer role, then the real job. 

It's probably galling for many traditionalists who've gone the old school way, but their way doesn't have to be the only way.