Lowe's biggest mistake?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Well, there has been quite a few but as I watched the Everton v Villa highlights and saw David Moyes on the touchline I remember how he nearly joined us in the summer of 2001.

He had agreed to be our new manager, but Lowe did not want him to bring his back room staff and so the arrangement fell through and Lowe returned to the cheaper Stuart Gray option.

 

For the sake of a few quid this decision was one of Lowe's worst if not the worst - although the Wigley and JP choices are pushing to be included.

[SaintDonkey]

Bugger me I hadn't heard that one. But playing devils advocate without Gray we wouldn't have had Strachan.

 

I'd say Wigley was a worse mistake - since it was repeating the same mistake. The JP experiment was just that an experiment and so I don't rate it as as such a terrible mistake. Repeating the failed experiment with Wotte could turn out to be a worse mistake but I don't think he deserves to be condemned as a failure (yet!).

[70's Mike]

Thanks Duncan just ruined my day

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Another branch to flagellate ourselves with. Lovely!

[Wildgoose]

Gotta say, that's exactly what I was thinking as I watched the match. I was recounting the incident to a friend as we watched. I remember being so gutted when the deal to bring in Moyes fell through....what might have been eh?

[Toomer]

I had forgotten all about that Duncan, but IMO his biggest mistake was getting involved with the club in the first place.

[Golden Balls]

I think the whole Wigley thing was a massive mistake. Had we got a proven manager in at that time, I have no doubt we would have got more than 3 points more than we did meaning we would have stayed up while having so many young players coming through.

[Big Ron fan]

Sacking Sturrock.

[chocco boxo]

RL biggest mistake was swapping hockey for football.

[OldNick]

I think you have to go back to the time that the choice was made.I agree that Moyes would have been superb as he works well with little finance.

When Moyes was interviewed GH had left and taken a lot of the backroom staff, Stuart Gray was the only one who turned down GH's invitation to leave.RL repaid his loyalty by keeping him in his job. Moyes of course wished to bring in Irvine in Grays place and so RL was caught between a rock and a hard place.

Whilst in hindsight it was a mistake I find it difficult to criticise that particular decision if you put yourself back to that time.

Wigley and Jan too long would be worse IMO

[Oz]

being born

[trousers]

Wasn't Moyes a relative unknown entity managament wise at the time though? OK, he guided Preston to the play-offs but I seem to recall Everton fans shrugging their shoulders when he was appointed.

 

I don't defend Lowe on here too often, but how was he to know that Moyes would turn from a relative unknown into a revered manager and that Wigley, Gray, etc wouldn't take the same elevatory path?

 

An element of hindsight needed by Lowe here perhaps?

.

[Leslie Charteris]

Lowe's biggest mistake has been thinking that he knows anything about football.

[sotonist]

Do you think for one second that Lowe would have held on to Moyes if he had acheived any modicum of success with us. Fat ****ing chance.

[bungle]

Well, there has been quite a few but as I watched the Everton v Villa highlights and saw David Moyes on the touchline I remember how he nearly joined us in the summer of 2001.

He had agreed to be our new manager, but Lowe did not want him to bring his back room staff and so the arrangement fell through and Lowe returned to the cheaper Stuart Gray option.

 

For the sake of a few quid this decision was one of Lowe's worst if not the worst - although the Wigley and JP choices are pushing to be included.

 

M3h. I wouldn't worry, if he had appointed him and then found in his 2nd full season that we were down fighting relegation then our wonderful fans would have been calling for his head and forced him out the club anyway.

[manzo]

Duncan, I always thought that Lowe was getting sick of changing the whole backroom staff every time a manager left (let's not have the debate again about why that happened so often!), and I think Hoddle trying to take Gray to Spurs with him might have been the catalyst, so was attempting to have more of a structure at the club that could survive the manager moving on.

 

I'm not saying it was a good idea in practice, but just that it wasn't about saving a few quid.

[St Paul]

Lowe's biggest mistake?

 

There have been so many, that it's hard to choose. Grey was a mistake in hindsight, but may have been worth a go. However he then did the same thing with Wiggely .

Keeping Redknapp after relegation, when it was obvious he wasn't interested. The whole SCW thing.Not to mention The Radio Station and Finncial arm of SLH.

 

He then came back to make even more mistakes.Nigel Pearson, Jan and Wotte,and his behaviour at the AGM, all spring to mind.

[alpine_saint]

Well, there has been quite a few but as I watched the Everton v Villa highlights and saw David Moyes on the touchline I remember how he nearly joined us in the summer of 2001.

He had agreed to be our new manager, but Lowe did not want him to bring his back room staff and so the arrangement fell through and Lowe returned to the cheaper Stuart Gray option.

 

For the sake of a few quid this decision was one of Lowe's worst if not the worst - although the Wigley and JP choices are pushing to be included.

 

Dunc, the list is as long as your arm, and in my opinion the long distinguished list of his f**k-ups has now congealed into a grey, amporphous blob.........

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Duncan, I always thought that Lowe was getting sick of changing the whole backroom staff every time a manager left (let's not have the debate again about why that happened so often!), and I think Hoddle trying to take Gray to Spurs with him might have been the catalyst, so was attempting to have more of a structure at the club that could survive the manager moving on.

 

I'm not saying it was a good idea in practice, but just that it wasn't about saving a few quid.

 

It's a fair point but I think Lowe could have worked something out. Moyes was an up and coming manager and I think if Lowe had been a bit freer with the cash a deal could have been done, but of course he did have a cheap option which is where he came unstuck.

[Tac-tics]

Lowe's biggest mistake was not supporting Strachan financially after that season.

[OldNick]

It's a fair point but I think Lowe could have worked something out. Moyes was an up and coming manager and I think if Lowe had been a bit freer with the cash a deal could have been done, but of course he did have a cheap option which is where he came unstuck.

That is not fair Dunc, you mentioned the reason Moyes didnt come was because he wished for his own backroom staff nothing to do with salary.

[Greenridge]

A fool is not someone who makes a mistake but someone who makes the same mistake twice (or more for that matter).

 

I couldn't pick any particular one as being more significant than any other as they are relative to that moment in time and specific circumstances.

[trousers]

Lowe's biggest 'mistake'?

 

No humility.

 

IMHO

[Frank's cousin]

It's a fair point but I think Lowe could have worked something out. Moyes was an up and coming manager and I think if Lowe had been a bit freer with the cash a deal could have been done, but of course he did have a cheap option which is where he came unstuck.

 

Come on Duncan, its a bit much dragging this one out the back catalogue of 'errors'. You know as well as anyone that it would have been greeted as another 'cheap option' at the time - 'unproven premiership manager' etc.

 

The problem is with the benefit of hindsight there are hundreds of examples where had the boards of clubs NOT reacted to the panic or fans feelings of panic, they would never have let managers go, or would have taken a punt on others - and would have been seen as visionaries. Think about it - bet Coventry were kicking themselves about sacking Strachan...?

 

Its an easy stick to use, but not really more than a twig.

 

We as fans cant expect the board to have patience or take a punt, if we are constantly demanding sackings for poor runs, and slagging appointments as cheap etc.

 

With time, ALL decsions turn out to be either good or bad, even if at the time they appear good or bad, there is no guarrantee they will stay that way.

[Frank's cousin]

Lowe's biggest mistake? Not learning from them

[alpine_saint]

Come on Duncan, its a bit much dragging this one out the back catalogue of 'errors'. You know as well as anyone that it would have been greeted as another 'cheap option' at the time - 'unproven premiership manager' etc.

 

The problem is with the benefit of hindsight there are hundreds of examples where had the boards of clubs NOT reacted to the panic or fans feelings of panic, they would never have let managers go, or would have taken a punt on others - and would have been seen as visionaries. Think about it - bet Coventry were kicking themselves about sacking Strachan...?

 

Its an easy stick to use, but not really more than a twig.

 

We as fans cant expect the board to have patience or take a punt, if we are constantly demanding sackings for poor runs, and slagging appointments as cheap etc.

 

With time, ALL decsions turn out to be either good or bad, even if at the time they appear good or bad, there is no guarrantee they will stay that way.

 

Yet more Lowe apologia and excuse-making from you.........

[trousers]

Some mixed Everton fans views on here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/sports_talk/1868992.stm at the time of his appointment.

[trousers]

Yet more Lowe apologia and excuse-making from you.........

 

It's a fair point though? Moyes at the time had achieved limited success as manager of Preston and, as you can see from some of the Everton fan's reaction at the time, there was a mixed reaction to the appointment, with many saying that the appointment signalled a lack of ambition at the club.

 

Whatever one's view of Lowe (and I'm admittedly in the anti camp) I don't think there was anywhere near a guarantee at the time that Moyes would turn into the decent manager we see today.

 

Just an observation.

[Channon's Sideburns]

M3h. I wouldn't worry, if he had appointed him and then found in his 2nd full season that we were down fighting relegation then our wonderful fans would have been calling for his head and forced him out the club anyway.

 

Or Mr Lowe would have engineered 'mutual consent' and another NDA....

 

How many of those have there been?? How much have they cost???

 

Hmmm..

[alpine_saint]

It's a fair point though? Moyes at the time had achieved limited success as manager of Preston and, as you can see from some of the Everton fan's reaction at the time, there was a mixed reaction to the appointment, with many saying that the appointment signalled a lack of ambition at the club.

 

Whatever one's view of Lowe (and I'm admittedly in the anti camp) I don't think there was anywhere near a guarantee at the time that Moyes would turn into the decent manager we see today.

 

Just an observation.

 

In the same way as certain people jump down my throat, irrelevant of the quality of post or point I have made, maybe I have done the same here. After all, any shred of sense contained withing FC's painfully over-verbose posts is usually drowned within colossal amounts of simpering for Lowe that he desperately tries to dress-up as "balance"

[Chap in the Chapel]

Lowe's biggest mistake: returning to the club last year.

 

When he was ousted in June 2006, it was his utter failure to prove that he was capable of running a football club successfully without the Sky wealth that was one of the key factors (viz. the 'didn't know where the next penny was coming from' comment, the lack of any impact on the division after pledging that we were 'just visiting' the Championship). Now, through returning, he's demonstrated that he is an unsafe pair of hands in two ways:

 

a) Gambling with the preposterous Dutch experiment, the impact of which will bite him in a big way if (when?) we are relegated, the season ticket renewal forms come back with 'no chance pal' written on them and the boycotts and protests get more inventive and popular.

 

b) The failure of his return makes him look ridiculous in the eyes of football at large and in the wider business community. As far as the former is concerned, since 2005, Lowe has a proven track record of failure in running a football club - if he's forced out of Saints, would any other club would give him a position of responsibility after this latest fiasco? As far as the latter goes, as he returned to protect the value of his investment and presumably those of his supporters too, and the value has subsequently slumped (although wider issues have had an effect too), with the customer base dwindling and openly expressing its disgust at the way the business is being run, how does this affect his own personal reputation?

 

By returning to Saints full of hubris about mandates and long-term planning (I seriously doubt that League 1 was part of the 'three-year plan' to return to the top flight) and making matters worse both on the pitch and off it, Lowe has damaged himself badly. He could have stayed well out of it and dealt with W.H. Ireland, a business that I have little doubt he is well suited to. That he hasn't stayed away is his biggest mistake - it shows that he doesn't learn from them.

[Colinjb]

Lowe's biggest mistake - Being involved in the first place.

[bug187]

Being born in the first place.

[stthrobber]

It's a fair point but I think Lowe could have worked something out. Moyes was an up and coming manager and I think if Lowe had been a bit freer with the cash a deal could have been done, but of course he did have a cheap option which is where he came unstuck.

 

Everyone accuses this club of appointing "the cheap option" and Crouch's tenure was no different.

 

Gray and Wigley might have been the "cheap option"....or more like "the wrong option" but what's done is done.

 

If Moyes had been appointed he would have been greeted by Saints fans as and equally cheap option and not good enough, exactly like Sturrock was by many, and more recently Nigel Pearson.

 

There would have been no guarantee that Moyes could have done a job at Saints under the same constraints as the rest either, he has had far more resources at Eventon than he ever would have done here, but the one plus point would have been that he is nobody's yes man

[Badger]

Wigley.

[Channon's Sideburns]

..but the one plus point would have been that he is nobody's yes man

 

 

Therein lies probably one of the reasons he wasn't appointed.

[Lord Duckhunter]

There would have been no guarantee that Moyes could have done a job at Saints under the same constraints as the rest either, he has had far more resources at Eventon than he ever would have done here, but the one plus point would have been that he is nobody's yes man

 

There's no guarantee that anyone will do a good job elsewhere. However if they've been sucsessful elsewhere it leads me to believe they'd have been so at Saints.Had SAF gone to Newcastle instead of Man U, would he have had the same sucsess, proberly not, although it's inconceivable Newcastle wouldn't be better off then they are now.

 

Being in Preston's postion now as opposed to Everton's, Moyes is exactly the type of Manager we need (that's the Moyes at Preston). We had someone similar in Nigel Pearson (in my opinion), and Lowe let him go. There's no guarantee that Pearson will become a Moyes, and do a good job for someone in the Premier League, however there's more chance of him doing it than Wotte.........

[Saint_clark]

For me it's sacking Pearson.

I genuinely believe we would be pushing for the play-offs with him in charge.

(Yes, I know Pearson wasn't "sacked" as such).

[um pahars]

For me it has to be the appointment of Wigley.

 

Everything about it, including the way he was unveiled to the press, was appalling. No one knew what was going on and the OS was issuing holding statements, correcting them and then reissuing them.

 

I honestly didn't think you needed hindsight to work out that it was never going to work.

 

A terrible appointment that kickstarted a chain of events, from which it will take quite a bit of time to recover.

 

 

After that, it has to be the appointment of Poortvliet. Why we went for such a Revolutionary Coaching Set Up at a time of financial fragility is mind boggling, particularly when we had something in situ that looke dlike it might work!!!!!

 

If we go down and administration befalls us, then maybe this season's decisions will be credited as Lowe's biggest mistake, replacing the appointment of Wigley.

[jonah]

There was nothing inherently wrong with giving the job to Gray over Moyes - if we had chosen Moyes and it had failed the clamour would have been that *he* was a cheap option and an obvious risk given he was only coming from Preston whereas Gray had played under Clough, played for Saints, knew the club, etc. And of course, there would have been criticism over lack of continuity and another clean-out of the back-room team. Either way plenty of scope for moaning.

 

I really don't understand the obsession with looking in the rear-view mirror unless it's to learn lessons - in this case I see nothing wrong with the original idea, the lesson that should have been learnt was that promoting coaches - who are naturally on friendly terms with the players - is not a good idea. So criticising the appointments of Wigley and Dodd/Gorman follow, but you can't pick holes solely on the basis of hindsight.

 

The other obsession I fail to understand is the quip about "cheap options" - how was Gray "cheaper" than Moyes? His salary? If his salary was lower then we had more to spend on players surely? His demands on transfer budget? We had just moved to SMS and had a turnover approaching £50m - plenty of scope for buying and selling (£4m Delap anyone?) but we couldn't just magic £10m or £20m from thin air for Moyes or anyone else to spend. In fact, I'm sure you'd like a comparison with P*mpey - prior to the arrival of the gun-running criminals their record signing was for just £1.5m, a figure we beat many many times. In 2004, whilst we were being criticised by some for not "moving to the next level" (Champions League presumably LOL), we spent every penny at our disposal whilst P*mpey finished the season with net funds sat in the bank account. The only other team in England who did that was Man United. And the following season we spent everything we had again, whereas P*mpey failed to spend (together with just 3 other teams).

 

Anyway, without Gray we would never have got WGS and another Cup Final, plus we would never have had Delgado and just think what a stick you'd have missed out on there ;-)

[once_bitterne]

Without doubt his biggest mistake was allowing the vocal section of fans to sway his mind in the re-appointment of Hoddle after WGS left. That was the first domino falling that has led us to where we are today.

 

It also no doubt influenced the way Lowe workd today in that he is sure not bow to fan pressure again which must have played a part in the decsion not to retain Pearson. This may end up being his second biggest mistake and really was a decision that made no logic behind it except 'I'm doing things my way this time'. Keeping Pearson would have in effect given him Lowe an 'extra life' where if things had gone tits up then he could lay the blame on those who apointed NP.

 

As far as mistakes go, appointing Woote might be up there too, if we had gone for Dowie who would surely have accepted the job, then I think we would have had a good chance of surviving. But then again if Crouch had gone for Dowie and not NP I feel we would have done better than surviving by the skin of our teeth and given that, Lowe may well have allowed him to remain in situe.

[ottery st mary]

There was nothing inherently wrong with giving the job to Gray over Moyes - if we had chosen Moyes and it had failed the clamour would have been that *he* was a cheap option and an obvious risk given he was only coming from Preston whereas Gray had played under Clough, played for Saints, knew the club, etc. And of course, there would have been criticism over lack of continuity and another clean-out of the back-room team. Either way plenty of scope for moaning.

 

I really don't understand the obsession with looking in the rear-view mirror unless it's to learn lessons - in this case I see nothing wrong with the original idea, the lesson that should have been learnt was that promoting coaches - who are naturally on friendly terms with the players - is not a good idea. So criticising the appointments of Wigley and Dodd/Gorman follow, but you can't pick holes solely on the basis of hindsight.

 

The other obsession I fail to understand is the quip about "cheap options" - how was Gray "cheaper" than Moyes? His salary? If his salary was lower then we had more to spend on players surely? His demands on transfer budget? We had just moved to SMS and had a turnover approaching £50m - plenty of scope for buying and selling (£4m Delap anyone?) but we couldn't just magic £10m or £20m from thin air for Moyes or anyone else to spend. In fact, I'm sure you'd like a comparison with P*mpey - prior to the arrival of the gun-running criminals their record signing was for just £1.5m, a figure we beat many many times. In 2004, whilst we were being criticised by some for not "moving to the next level" (Champions League presumably LOL), we spent every penny at our disposal whilst P*mpey finished the season with net funds sat in the bank account. The only other team in England who did that was Man United. And the following season we spent everything we had again, whereas P*mpey failed to spend (together with just 3 other teams).

 

Anyway, without Gray we would never have got WGS and another Cup Final, plus we would never have had Delgado and just think what a stick you'd have missed out on there ;-)

 

At long last you begin to make good and sensible comment. If you do not mind me saying so.

 

I am going to speak to my partner in the city and suggest we take you off computer maintenance and give you something in the financial area to cut your teeth on..A form of apprenticeship..rather than you continually walking around with the financial times under your arm and spouting a lot of the nonsense you have previously put up on this forum on behalf of Lowe, Richards, Wilde Askham and The Lavender Hill Mob.

 

Keep up the good work jonah....Lifeboats at the ready.. Shiver my timbers and try not to wet your hammock as Rupert will get wet.

Edited 16 February, 2009 by ottery st mary

[um pahars]

plus we would never have had Delgado and just think what a stick you'd have missed out on there ;-)

 

I still reckon we would have had Delgado, as that signing had nothing to do with who the manager of the day was.

[stthrobber]

Without doubt his biggest mistake was allowing the vocal section of fans to sway his mind in the re-appointment of Hoddle after WGS left. That was the first domino falling that has led us to where we are today.

 

 

But he didn't. He quite categorically stated he would appoint who he wanted as the fans didn't run the club.

 

Hoddle decided not to come back because he knew that he did not have the full support of the board.

 

That decision was taken from Lowe by Hoddle himself

[Channon's Sideburns]

But then again if Crouch had gone for Dowie and not NP I feel we would have done better than surviving by the skin of our teeth and given that, Lowe may well have allowed him to remain in situe.

 

OB, you can't possibly be serious....you really think even if we had WGS back after Crouch left that Lowe would have left him there???

 

One word. Ego.

 

He won't work with anyone who doesn't go along with his terms.

[jonah]

He won't work with anyone who doesn't go along with his terms.

 

Are you suggesting other chairmen will employ people who don't see things the same way as them then? You're saying they deliberately look for problems by hiring someone who disgrees with them? Don't you think that would be rather stupid?

[Alain Perrin]

Moyes is an interesting manager. Everton seem to repeatedly have a great (flirting with CL football season) followed by a poor (flirting with relegation) season. Always good for a spreadbet.

[Channon's Sideburns]

Are you suggesting other chairmen will employ people who don't see things the same way as them then? You're saying they deliberately look for problems by hiring someone who disgrees with them? Don't you think that would be rather stupid?

 

Not half as stupid as employing ineffective 'yes' men who haven't the balls to stand their ground...

 

Perhaps that's why he holds respect for WGS - someone who actually stood his ground?

 

Just a thought...

[jonah]

Not half as stupid as employing ineffective 'yes' men who haven't the balls to stand their ground...

 

Ahh I see, anyone who agrees with the chairman doesn't have balls. PResumably NP didn't have balls because he agreed with Crouch?

 

Perhaps that's why he holds respect for WGS - someone who actually stood his ground?

 

But you just said he only employed 'yes men' who didn't have the balls to stand their ground? So was WGS hired by RL as a 'yes man' or not?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

There was nothing inherently wrong with giving the job to Gray over Moyes - if we had chosen Moyes and it had failed the clamour would have been that *he* was a cheap option and an obvious risk given he was only coming from Preston whereas Gray had played under Clough, played for Saints, knew the club, etc. And of course, there would have been criticism over lack of continuity and another clean-out of the back-room team. Either way plenty of scope for moaning.

 

I really don't understand the obsession with looking in the rear-view mirror unless it's to learn lessons - in this case I see nothing wrong with the original idea, the lesson that should have been learnt was that promoting coaches - who are naturally on friendly terms with the players - is not a good idea. So criticising the appointments of Wigley and Dodd/Gorman follow, but you can't pick holes solely on the basis of hindsight.

 

The other obsession I fail to understand is the quip about "cheap options" - how was Gray "cheaper" than Moyes? His salary? If his salary was lower then we had more to spend on players surely? His demands on transfer budget? We had just moved to SMS and had a turnover approaching £50m - plenty of scope for buying and selling (£4m Delap anyone?) but we couldn't just magic £10m or £20m from thin air for Moyes or anyone else to spend. In fact, I'm sure you'd like a comparison with P*mpey - prior to the arrival of the gun-running criminals their record signing was for just £1.5m, a figure we beat many many times. In 2004, whilst we were being criticised by some for not "moving to the next level" (Champions League presumably LOL), we spent every penny at our disposal whilst P*mpey finished the season with net funds sat in the bank account. The only other team in England who did that was Man United. And the following season we spent everything we had again, whereas P*mpey failed to spend (together with just 3 other teams).

 

Anyway, without Gray we would never have got WGS and another Cup Final, plus we would never have had Delgado and just think what a stick you'd have missed out on there ;-)

 

 

Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing but just because it exists shouldn't preclude us asking or wondering what life would have been like had Lowe accepted Moyes's demands to bring his backroom staff. Would we be where we are, lower even? I would hope and wager not.

 

Gray was a cheap option both financially and morally. I remember holidaying in Devon that summer and spending a whole day fishing with my dad with most of the conversation being dominated by who would Lowe chose to be our new manager in our new stadium. There were lots of names being touted. Redknapp was interviewed but hastily discarded. Moyes was keen to come but all the time we both had a nagging dread that Lowe would take the option that would be the financially friendly route and employ Gray on a lower salary. Plus of course by then Lowe was already eyeing becoming more involved in the football side of things (he liked the continuity idea of a DoF role) and Gray would have been far more malleable than a grumpy, ambitious jock. No contest really. Part of me thinks just as Lowe never was going to appoint Redknapp, he was never going to take Moyes but wanted to show the fans he was casting his net. I remember an Echo sports journo at the time told me Gray was always going to get the nod and so it proved.