alpine_saint Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Let's just get on with it and bring the circus of the last 5 years to a close, yes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW5 SAINT Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Why would Rupert put the club into administration and loose his investment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 February, 2009 Author Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Why would Rupert put the club into administration and loose his investment? Go and look at the LSE website - he's more or less lost it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Farmer Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Why would Rupert put the club into administration and loose his investment? What investment? Lowe is a taker, not a giver. I'd like to give him something for taking this club and running it into the ground though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huffton Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Lowe is a taker, not a giver. Oh to be good at Photoshop.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 It's happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Lets not go into administration. Lets actively get off our arses and find a buyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorpie the sinner Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 so, next Tues is d-day! ****in ****in brilliant!!!! RIP dear friend!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjk Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 If we are to take a points deduction it must be this season and not in league 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 If we are to take a points deduction it must be this season and not in league 1 we'll probably get one in both divisions. Most clubs do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW5 SAINT Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 If we are to take a points deduction it must be this season and not in league 1 It is of no consequence to Sir Rupert whether we take the hit in the CCC or League 1!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stepgar Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 It's happening. do you genuinly know something? Or are you just kinda saying what we all really think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Enough, enough, enough.. This forum is enough too make any saints supporter suicidal.. With belief like this we will defiantly go down, will go into administration, and will vanish of the Football’ing planet.. I’m not really sure why I’m posting this on this thread, or why I’m even saying it. Alcoholic beverage could have a factor in my decision though. Piece and Love, piece and love, SB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Enough, enough, enough.. This forum is enough too make any saints supporter suicidal.. With belief like this we will defiantly go down, will go into administration, and will vanish of the Football’ing planet.. I’m not really sure why I’m posting this on this thread, or why I’m even saying it. Alcoholic beverage could have a factor in my decision though. peace and Love, peace and love, SB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amesbury Saint Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 If we go into admin and Lowe has gone please can someone start a thread asking what we all are going to do to help the club. 20,000 season ticket sales would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 Let's just get on with it and bring the circus of the last 5 years to a close, yes ? it may make the last few years look like the good old days if we do go into administration. If we have to let more players go to avoid it then we should. My guess is its not happening. Guess only (as everyone else's on here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milkybarkid Posted 19 February, 2009 Share Posted 19 February, 2009 it may make the last few years look like the good old days if we do go into administration. If we have to let more players go to avoid it then we should. My guess is its not happening. Guess only (as everyone else's on here) It's not happening. Not yet anyway. Don't believe the hype. We'll stumble on to the end of the season, 'cos that's clearly the game plan. We REALLY do not need the extra hassle anyway, not at the moment. The players have got enough to think about keeping us in this division without the extra worry of where their next obscene pay check is coming from (Deloitte and Touche IMHO). I'm convinced we'll still get out of this yet, you know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Bones Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Let's just get on with it and bring the circus of the last 5 years to a close, yes ? So eager to throw away 115 years of history ? 5 years - Yup they haven't been the best - but to throw it all away..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 February, 2009 Author Share Posted 20 February, 2009 So eager to throw away 115 years of history ? 5 years - Yup they haven't been the best - but to throw it all away..... I dont agree it will all be thrown away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Bones Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 But it will be a totally different club from the one we have supported previously , yes ? I know things are bad ( major understatement ) surely's theres another way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 So eager to throw away 115 years of history ? 5 years - Yup they haven't been the best - but to throw it all away..... We won't be throwing it all away, it will still be there, all that might be going is the shell company. The Football Club will remain in whatever guise that may be. Even if the worst came to the very worst, a new Southampton Football Club will be playing football somewhere, even if it is some way down the footballing pyramid!!!!! I'm not saying that it won't be painful (because I think it will cause us problems for a long,long time), but it won't wipe away the past and it certainly won't prevent us having a future. I took us until 1897 to become a limited company (Southampton Football & Athletic Company Limited), we didn't get into the Football League until the 1920's and because we may have to be reborn under some other legal/formal name, it will not mean The Saints will not have a past, a present nor a future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northam soul Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Seroius question though - What are we all going to do if we do go into admin. There will be i would imagine a few potential buyers which the administrators will look to do a deal with, we may end up with our debt reduced as a result but there is the possibility that the same people running the club now could own it entirely in a few months. Now this would mean we will already be in league 1, we will have a worse team than we have now if thats possible, we will have even less income due to the quality of football and the Lowe factor so the situation will start all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 If we go into admin and Lowe has gone please can someone start a thread asking what we all are going to do to help the club. 20,000 season ticket sales would help. What makes everybody think that if/when we go into Administration, that that will herald the departure of Lowe ??? IT WON'T ...... He will rise up from the Ashes of Saints, and will continue to run a reformed PLC Only something terminal will ever rid us of Lowe. As long as he still retains just ONE share, he will still be around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 What makes everybody think that if/when we go into Administration, that that will herald the departure of Lowe ??? IT WON'T ...... He will rise up from the Ashes of Saints, and will continue to run a reformed PLC Only something terminal will ever rid us of Lowe. As long as he still retains just ONE share, he will still be around Did you remember to check under your bed for Rupert last night? And in the wardrobe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbins Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Just been browsing as a PNE fan before the game this weekend and interesting to see these threads. Is there still no real sign or date of any administration at all then? I was told quite a few weeks ago that Feb 23rd was a date in mind but looking here it seems not to ever be mentioned(I see the talk of a board meeting is set for the 24th which is closest). I read the 23rd date subsequently in a couple of other unrelated forums so thought it was more common knowledge. I'm exiled down here nowadays but it was family back home who told me about the date. They'd picked it up in passing at a function of some sort back home, the Football League is based up in Preston so I got the impression it was from talking with someone who worked there that the date had been touted to them. Guess only time will tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capel Saint Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 What makes everybody think that if/when we go into Administration, that that will herald the departure of Lowe ??? IT WON'T ...... He will rise up from the Ashes of Saints, and will continue to run a reformed PLC Only something terminal will ever rid us of Lowe. As long as he still retains just ONE share, he will still be around I think you are right that Lowe may try to gain ownership of the club from the administrators but it will largely depend if he is outmuscled by another consortium. My take on the situation is that the Fulthorpe consortium and possibly others are just waiting in the wings, gathering their strength for when the club does go into administration and then the bidding will start, therefore it is not wise at this stage to make a sweeping statement that Lowe will never be gone. No investor will come in whilst the club is run by a plc as they would have to buy shares to gain ownership, which would have been a very expensive way of buying a club. That is why there has been no viable investor who has come forward. I know we had a bid from SISU but they were a hedge fund and I haven;t seen them splash the supposedly £20m transfer budget that was alledged to have been available at the start of this season. Therefore when administrators are appointed to sell the club as a going concern, we as fans must hope Lowe is not successful as he has no love for the club and will only want it so he can develop Jacksons Farm etc and hopefully a consortium or investor will gain control who wants to take the club forward again and rebuild it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Let's just get on with it and bring the circus of the last 5 years to a close, yes ? and be great like Bournemouth who can't even get an extension sanctioned for Thomson's loan - once again -careful what you wish for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Lets not go into administration. Lets actively get off our arses and find a buyer. Feck me someone with a good idea!!!! Ive been trying to say this over the last week or so. If all those that put all there effort into boycotts and protests actually got together and made plans on attracting a buyer we might actually get rid of the muppets and turn a corner that we can all support. IMO I wouldnt take admin until it was mathmatically proven we are down and even then only if it was proven we cant afford to survive in league 1. If we had to take it and had the points next season then so be it. but while there is still a chance we can survive without admin then we should be at least trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 I think you are right that Lowe may try to gain ownership of the club from the administrators but it will largely depend if he is outmuscled by another consortium. My take on the situation is that the Fulthorpe consortium and possibly others are just waiting in the wings, gathering their strength for when the club does go into administration and then the bidding will start, therefore it is not wise at this stage to make a sweeping statement that Lowe will never be gone. No investor will come in whilst the club is run by a plc as they would have to buy shares to gain ownership, which would have been a very expensive way of buying a club. That is why there has been no viable investor who has come forward. I know we had a bid from SISU but they were a hedge fund and I haven;t seen them splash the supposedly £20m transfer budget that was alledged to have been available at the start of this season. Therefore when administrators are appointed to sell the club as a going concern, we as fans must hope Lowe is not successful as he has no love for the club and will only want it so he can develop Jacksons Farm etc and hopefully a consortium or investor will gain control who wants to take the club forward again and rebuild it. If it's the Fulthorpe "consortium" that we're relying on to oust Lowe,or prevent him taking it on after administration, then woe betide us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Lets not go into administration. Lets actively get off our arses and find a buyer. go on then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Enough, enough, enough.. This forum is enough too make any saints supporter suicidal.. With belief like this we will defiantly go down, will go into administration, and will vanish of the Football’ing planet.. I’m not really sure why I’m posting this on this thread, or why I’m even saying it. Alcoholic beverage could have a factor in my decision though. peace and Love, peace and love, SB Sadly, we are a long way off defiant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 I don't want Lowe or Wilde, I really don't but administration would be dreadful in this world economic recession. Four years ago say, we'd have got multiple bids with Askham and co. disabled financially but in this climate we can't be certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 We won't be throwing it all away, it will still be there, all that might be going is the shell company. The Football Club will remain in whatever guise that may be. Even if the worst came to the very worst, a new Southampton Football Club will be playing football somewhere, even if it is some way down the footballing pyramid!!!!! I'm not saying that it won't be painful (because I think it will cause us problems for a long,long time), but it won't wipe away the past and it certainly won't prevent us having a future. I took us until 1897 to become a limited company (Southampton Football & Athletic Company Limited), we didn't get into the Football League until the 1920's and because we may have to be reborn under some other legal/formal name, it will not mean The Saints will not have a past, a present nor a future. It won't be the same though. We will lose our league status probably starting off in the Southern S&W division and unable to call ourselves Southampton FC. If that name dies it will die with 90% of the fanbase. You know the seriousness that administration will bring if judging by your previous posts and knowledge of the club's financial history. I don't disagree with your sentiments but they gloss over the reality and warning us 'it won't be painful' hardly delivers the most likely story given the current economy and amount of unsecured debt. Even if we can go forward with a plan that doesn't repay all the creditors but keeps us trading the points deduction will far exceed -10pts that will mean we drop through League 1 in a season and then as the post admin plans fails we will have administration again and we'll make Luton look like a minor shunt in terms of crashes. It won't wipe away our past but I personally won't be able to support a new derivative in the lower reaches of the non-league and I don't understand how fans so passionate can advocate administration or protest when by doing so they are effectively supporting corporate euthanasia either directly or indirectly, In fact some (not you Um pahars) seem to be queuing up to turn off the life support machine. 'Fan's such as Alpine who say they don't believe Administration could mean the end of the club are igorant and haven't bothered to assess the risks or else they simply enjoy watching 'Rome burn'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 ......... and then as the post admin plans fails Are you assuming that Lowe will buy us out of admin then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 I don't want Lowe or Wilde, I really don't but administration would be dreadful in this world economic recession. Four years ago say, we'd have got multiple bids with Askham and co. disabled financially but in this climate we can't be certain. Cue someone blaming Lowe for not taking us into administration 4 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Cue someone blaming Lowe for not taking us into administration 4 years ago There was a hold up on the A27 this morning, I blame Lowe for that. He also burnt my toast and will spit in my beer tonight! Seriously, I do take your point though, the man is a bit incompetent these days but some of the stuff posted about him is a bit OTT. I mean he's hardly Robert Mugabe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFKA South Woodford Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Administration really would be the end of the Saints we all love so dearly. Woud we ever be able to see a Saints team back in the football league, let alone either the championship or premiership? Admin will mean the sale of all club assets first and foremost, which in all probability woud include St Mary's, with the only hope then being that the council could some how find the money and lease it back to whatever is left of the club after the process has ended. Without the stadium there is no base for recovery. Without a stadium and without a place in the football league, there is no longer the Southampton Football Club which has ruled our emotions for so much of our lives. Before anyone mentions Aldershot, their circumstances were different, they had a local businessman that could actually afford to buy the garden shed that is the Recreation ground. Without it, I doubt very much they would have managed the climb they have made, being such a small club probably aided their recovery, rather than hindered it. If none of our local businessmen can afford to buy the club at it's current worth, then none of them can afford to buy St Marys, it is after all the club's largest debt. So i'll say 'no thanks' to administration, if it's all the same to you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Lowe will only buy it all back on the cheap anyway if we do go into it. There is no escape from that eccentric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 It won't be the same though. We will lose our league status probably starting off in the Southern S&W division and unable to call ourselves Southampton FC. If that name dies it will die with 90% of the fanbase. You know the seriousness that administration will bring if judging by your previous posts and knowledge of the club's financial history. I don't disagree with your sentiments but they gloss over the reality and warning us 'it won't be painful' hardly delivers the most likely story given the current economy and amount of unsecured debt. Even if we can go forward with a plan that doesn't repay all the creditors but keeps us trading the points deduction will far exceed -10pts that will mean we drop through League 1 in a season and then as the post admin plans fails we will have administration again and we'll make Luton look like a minor shunt in terms of crashes. It won't wipe away our past but I personally won't be able to support a new derivative in the lower reaches of the non-league and I don't understand how fans so passionate can advocate administration or protest when by doing so they are effectively supporting corporate euthanasia either directly or indirectly, In fact some (not you Um pahars) seem to be queuing up to turn off the life support machine. 'Fan's such as Alpine who say they don't believe Administration could mean the end of the club are igorant and haven't bothered to assess the risks or else they simply enjoy watching 'Rome burn'. um pahars actually was admitting it would be painfull "I am not saying it won't be painful" I agree though that the fan base will fragment if we have to start again as a non league club. For instance those like yourself in North Hampshire might start following Aldershott or Basingstoke rather than long travel to SMS or more likely some other smaller venue. Eastleigh will likely take some of the Saints fan base as we will no longer be perceived as the big successful brother. Just another likely fall out of Administration unless someone with substantial money comes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 That there was a thread on here asking who people would support should Saints cease to exist should be frightening enough for people to realise that administration is not something that anyone should look forward to. I'd rather we played in League One with Rupert Lowe in goal and Mike Wilde up front for the next ten years than have no SFC to support at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 If we are to take a points deduction it must be this season and not in league 1 Why, if, without the points deduction, we would have still been relegated then they apply the Point Deduction to next season anyway..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Lets not go into administration. Lets actively get off our arses and find a buyer. TBH SaintRobbie I wish you'd drop this line, it ain't going to happen.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Lowe will only buy it all back on the cheap anyway if we do go into it. There is no escape from that eccentric. Colin my understanding is that a buyer will have to repay all the creditors or put together a rescue plan that satisifies the creditors of the club's ability to repay in the future. Its is solely about the needs of the creditors. No one we know of in the public domain are going to be able to afford route 1. (As the stadium is mortgaged provided the mortgage provider is happy to extend the borrowing to the new owners they will not need to repay the stadium debt other than maintain repayments). The unsecured debt I guess must still be about £6m and that is not an insiginificant sum and you woudl still get hit with -10pts. Going the other route of producing a business plan to stay in business without repating creditors is going to take a lot of work especially with banks wanting to reduce their exposure to risky lending. This will also mean a higher points deduction which if left until after March would come out of next season's total, making relegation likely in 2010. This would obviously hinder any rescuse plan put togther by Lowe or a n other and administration could visit us again if we slip into League 2 and the it really would be over. No significant investment post administration and its finished IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Lets not go into administration. Lets actively get off our arses and find a buyer.Best way of attracting a buyer is to show the passion of our support by filling SMS every home game. What better advertisment. Not knocking the demonstrations before or after games, that is a democratic right in a free country but prospective buyers will look at the active fan base and presently that is not likely to be attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Best way of attracting a buyer is to show the passion of our support by filling SMS every home game. What better advertisment. Not knocking the demonstrations before or after games, that is a democratic right in a free country but prospective buyers will look at the active fan base and presently that is not likely to be attractive. Thats what I believe also. Why anyone would want to buy us when its plain to see how much our fans can turn on the board is beyond me. billy big wad comes in and buys the club. Team cant buy a win. fans turn on the board for not doing the business. no thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Thats what I believe also. Why anyone would want to buy us when its plain to see how much our fans can turn on the board is beyond me. billy big wad comes in and buys the club. Team cant buy a win. fans turn on the board for not doing the business. no thanks. Or - conversely - Billy Big Wad comes in: sees that the fans feel so passionately about their club that they are prepared to deny THEMSELVES the pleasure of watching the team because of what the incumbent management team has done sees that with a management team, with the passion to match that of the fans, good things could happen decides this is the sort of passion s/he wants to buy into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Colin my understanding is that a buyer will have to repay all the creditors or put together a rescue plan that satisifies the creditors of the club's ability to repay in the future. Its is solely about the needs of the creditors. No one we know of in the public domain are going to be able to afford route 1. (As the stadium is mortgaged provided the mortgage provider is happy to extend the borrowing to the new owners they will not need to repay the stadium debt other than maintain repayments). The unsecured debt I guess must still be about £6m and that is not an insiginificant sum and you woudl still get hit with -10pts. Going the other route of producing a business plan to stay in business without repating creditors is going to take a lot of work especially with banks wanting to reduce their exposure to risky lending. This will also mean a higher points deduction which if left until after March would come out of next season's total, making relegation likely in 2010. This would obviously hinder any rescuse plan put togther by Lowe or a n other and administration could visit us again if we slip into League 2 and the it really would be over. No significant investment post administration and its finished IMO. To be fair this is just an argument why we shouldn't go into administration. However it is increasingly more likely that we will be relegated anyway - does anyone honestly believe we will outscore our rivals by 6 points??? In which case, as you have already mentioned, we will enter administration and have a 10 point deduction in league 1 next year, more than likely causing us to slip in to league 2. Which ever way you look at it, we're gonna end up in League 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Or - conversely - Billy Big Wad comes in: sees that the fans feel so passionately about their club that they are prepared to deny THEMSELVES the pleasure of watching the team because of what the incumbent management team has done There's positive thinking and then there's delusion, tbf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Or - conversely - Billy Big Wad comes in: sees that the fans feel so passionately about their club that they are prepared to deny THEMSELVES the pleasure of watching the team because of what the incumbent management team has done sees that with a management team, with the passion to match that of the fans, good things could happen decides this is the sort of passion s/he wants to buy into Fair enough but can the stay away 10,000 or so really be counted as denying themselves the pleasure? Or could they be counted as people who are not entertained and prefer to spend there money on something else? Anyone coming in will look at the worst case scenario which is what we are pretty much. which is a struggling team hemeraging money and not enough core fans to sustain the status quo. A fairly large section of the fans that have lost there patients with the club and all those in it and lead the line in getting support to protest against most decissions made at the club without thinking about the alternative. This is not a new idea, its what we have been doing for a few years so why should it change? Im not saying we as fans are wrong to be like this or that its our fault we are like it. But thats what billy Big Wad will see when he looks in our window. If our ptotests carried a simple message and we were still getting 20k through the door then billy Big wad would see nice big pound signs and hero status should he come in and get things right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 20 February, 2009 Share Posted 20 February, 2009 Best way of attracting a buyer is to show the passion of our support by filling SMS every home game. What better advertisment. Not knocking the demonstrations before or after games, that is a democratic right in a free country but prospective buyers will look at the active fan base and presently that is not likely to be attractive.to true i mean if i had money and looked at this club i would not touch the club with a barge pole massive debt,.divided fan base,poor crowds negative people at all levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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