The utter madness of the Poortvliet experiment

[InvictaSaint]

Given what Mark Wotte appears to be doing in rejuvenating, reuniting and reigniting the team - he wasn't my first choice, but credit now where credit is [thus far] due - am I the only one now looking at the seven months of Jan Poortvliet's reign with utter incredulity? Why was the club, and Lowe in particular, making such catastrophic decisions? The ultimate net effect of this lunacy could still be felt should MW not achieve his aim of keeping us up - like every other sane Saints fan I hope he does - and there is going to have to be some SERIOUS soul-searching by Messrs Lowe et al if it all goes belly up and we start next season in League 1.

 

I just cannot believe, particularly given the evidence of the last two games, that we were ever steered down this route in the first place. Madness, sheer madness.

[alpine_saint]

Difficult for anyone to argue against, though a few will try the "we're broke" line, no doubt, despite the agents fees, coaching staff costs, loan cost, etc., etc.

[Frank's cousin]

Was going to post something similar - What was Lowe thinking in bringing in JP, if as we are led to believe he had Wotte lined up a log time ago? I just dont get it. If he had faith in Wotte, why not give him the job to start with?

 

I can only speculate that he though the fans would have more faithin an ex-international pro, than in MW? Te question now is can MW 'do a pearson' and keep us up? I think we are going to need at least 16 points from the reamining 36. 20 to be certain.

[1965onwards]

not only incredibly stupid,but also incredibly negligent.

 

if we go into admin,shareholders should sue Lowe for the value of their lost shares,and apply to courts to have him disbarred from company directorships.

[trousers]

Given what Mark Wotte appears to be doing in rejuvenating, reuniting and reigniting the team - he wasn't my first choice, but credit now where credit is [thus far] due - am I the only one now looking at the seven months of Jan Poortvliet's reign with utter incredulity? Why was the club, and Lowe in particular, making such catastrophic decisions? The ultimate net effect of this lunacy could still be felt should MW not achieve his aim of keeping us up - like every other sane Saints fan I hope he does - and there is going to have to be some SERIOUS soul-searching by Messrs Lowe et al if it all goes belly up and we start next season in League 1.

 

I just cannot believe, particularly given the evidence of the last two games, that we were ever steered down this route in the first place. Madness, sheer madness.

 

I posted this on another thread but perhaps more relevant to this one:

 

_______________________________________________________________

I've suspected for several months now that van der Waals somehow convinced Lowe to take "two for the price of one" (Dutch coaches) when Lowe was probably happy to go with his 'original' plan of Wotte at the helm.

 

If true, just begs the questions:

 

What did Waals say, or do, to convince Lowe to take on JP as well as Wotte?

 

and

 

Why did the club keep Waals' role under wraps until he was 'uncovered' on here?

 

Perhaps Lowe's "original" plan was a relatively sound idea, but he somehow got convinced by 'others' that it should be expanded....given Lowe isn't a football man at heart he may have been hoodwinked by other supposedly more knowledgable 'advisors'...?

 

The irony being that Lowe could actually be the victim in all this....?!

 

[trousers]

I just dont get it. If he had faith in Wotte' date=' why not give him the job to start with? [/quote']

 

See my potentially hair brained theory above

[alpine_saint]

Maybe Lowe was unsure about the result of his experiment and JP was just cannon fodder ?

[dubai_phil]

Again had been thinking along similar lines...

 

From this distant viewpoint it seemed even in close season that the training was wrong, tales of lack of fitness, nobody given the chance to get match fit were simple indicators that I could read about here.

 

In SOME ways, I wonder whether (for all his alleged involvement in picking the team) Lowe actually didn't spend much time AT Staplewood. IF the stories are to be believed then anyone with 10 years involvement at a football club could have seen that poor results and a lax training or fitness regime would have a link.

 

Did he actually stay TOO far away so as not to see the blindingly obvious?

 

To me the key "rumour" was of Adam Lallana on a night out in Bournemouth chatting with fans and saying he'd had to pay to sign up to Fitness First as he wasn't fit enough for his body to overcome all the little niggling injuries that are part and parcel of life as a pro.

 

Now on it's own it is a man in the pub story, but all together I just wonder WTF was really going on....

 

Doctrine vs Intelligence always one outcome

[Frank's cousin]

Maybe Lowe was unsure about the result of his experiment and JP was just cannon fodder ?

 

Thats not actually totally unfeasible...

[dubai_phil]

Maybe Lowe was unsure about the result of his experiment and JP was just cannon fodder ?

 

yikes - I wondered that as well.....

Wotte was too good a coach/catch to risk with an experiment but would come in if it all worked well...

 

hmm

[krissyboy31]

Maybe Lowe was unsure about the result of his experiment and JP was just cannon fodder ?

 

Yes but Wotte seems to have a completely different philosophy on how the game should be played than Poortvliet. I don't get why, if Wotte was such a respected coach in his own right, he would stay in the background, bite his lip and let the team goes to pot.

Edited 1 March, 2009 by krissyboy31

[Sheaf Saint]

not only incredibly stupid,but also incredibly negligent.

 

if we go into admin,shareholders should sue Lowe for the value of their lost shares,and apply to courts to have him disbarred from company directorships.

 

This is my thinking exactly. In most, if not all, other situations, anybody who presided over such an utter disaster that every single customer of that company could see and predict happening, that person would be summarily dismissed for gross mis-management - shareholder or not.

[Alain Perrin]

Funny how it was the "Dutch experiment", yet becomes the "JP experiment" when Wotte wins a couple of games....

 

Two factors in my mind:

 

1) Mentality - Wotte has the team believing they can win again. Most of the time in the past 3 or 4 years, we'd have conceded late on vs. Cardiff. He's restored a bit of the grit that they gained under Pearson and didn't have under JP.

 

2) Saga / Euell - experienced heads count for a lot, plus by being left out, they both have something to prove. I suspect, in JP's defence, their unavailability was financially driven. Either Lowe believes that by saving their wages from the first half of the season, we can now afford them, or he realises it is **** or bust time. Either way, we're a better team with them in than out.

 

My opinion is JP was too nice a guy to be a manager. The early signs were good (Derby and both B'ham fixtures), but when the chips were down and you needed to be a bit of bastard, JP didn't rally the troops.

[SaintRobbie]

Given what Mark Wotte appears to be doing in rejuvenating, reuniting and reigniting the team - he wasn't my first choice, but credit now where credit is [thus far] due - am I the only one now looking at the seven months of Jan Poortvliet's reign with utter incredulity? Why was the club, and Lowe in particular, making such catastrophic decisions? The ultimate net effect of this lunacy could still be felt should MW not achieve his aim of keeping us up - like every other sane Saints fan I hope he does - and there is going to have to be some SERIOUS soul-searching by Messrs Lowe et al if it all goes belly up and we start next season in League 1.

 

I just cannot believe, particularly given the evidence of the last two games, that we were ever steered down this route in the first place. Madness, sheer madness.

 

Although it was Wotte who put JP in place through Lowe. Paradox there dont you think?

 

It was Wotte who convinced Lowe the youth experiment could work.

 

I hope Wotte keeps us up to redemm himself some footballing pride before he's sacked with his master if I'm being honest.

 

I dont think the players are playing for Wotte - although he is certainly more animated on the touch line than Mr Nice Guy without resources. I think (and hear) the players are playing for themselves... we have a leader in the camp... a senior player... its not (just) Wotte.

[Alain Perrin]

This is my thinking exactly. In most, if not all, other situations, anybody who presided over such an utter disaster that every single customer of that company could see and predict happening, that person would be summarily dismissed for gross mis-management - shareholder or not.

 

Naive position.

 

Lowe has to balance the finances AND the results. I think 2008/2009 is about cutting the debt first, staying in the Championship second. Preferably both.

 

However, there is no point staying up by 6 points because Saga played all season and scored you some more goals; then being relegated because of a 10 pt administration reduction, because Saga's wages tipped you over the edge. It is a balancing act that lots of posters don't seem to consider.

[Jackie@home]

Alain, I exactly see your point of the difficult balancing act. We all knew that we would be in a difficult financial position this year and the wage bill needed cutting dramatically, therefore the obvious things to do would be appoint a manager who has a record of keeping teams up on a shoe-string (like Sean O'Driscoll), with knowledge of the best League One (cheap) players. Send 2 out 3 experienced strikers on loan but not all 3. Cut the size of the squad down - you can only play 11 at once, wages for Pulis, gasmi, Robertson, Pekhardt, etc. are a criminal waste of money. "Squad" players are a luxurious waste of money - surely this is what your academy is for?

Incidentally, there was mention in the Independent on Saturday that there was a 50/50 chance we would go into administration in the next 2 weeks. You just feel that the gates would have held up to a break-even level if the club had been managed properly in the first place.

[um pahars]

I can only speculate that he though the fans would have more faithin an ex-international pro' date=' than in MW?[/quote']

 

Surely you're not trying to put the blame of this folly on the fans;)?????

 

Having spoken to many in and around the Club, it is clear that this Revolutionary Coaching Set Up along with it's Total Football and the role of the youth was Lowe's brainchild, so it will be interesting to read what his post experiment notes look like (and maybe get Chris Iwelumo's thoughts as well, because IMHO he also has a lot to answer for).

 

Looking back it just beggars belief as to why we went lock, stock and barrel with this route at such a critical time.

 

It was one hell of a gamble and one that we may yet pay the price for.

 

We do have every chance of getting out of this, but if we do, then the folly of this experiment should not be glossed over or forgotten about come the end of the season, as we must ensure we do not repeat these horrendous errors.

 

I know what that would mean for me, i.e. the removal of Lowe from the CEO position and PLC Chairman, as it was a gross misjudgement, but I'm sure others will have their own views as to how we ensure we don't repeat such stupid mistakes.

[hypochondriac]

Funny how it was the "Dutch experiment", yet becomes the "JP experiment" when Wotte wins a couple of games....

 

 

The Dutch experiment was clearly outlined on the OS. It included the emphasis on youth and that crazy formation. We were looking to emulate the Dutch and use total football. Everything is completely different now. It is no longer the Dutch experiment that it was.

Two factors in my mind:

 

1) Mentality - Wotte has the team believing they can win again. Most of the time in the past 3 or 4 years, we'd have conceded late on vs. Cardiff. He's restored a bit of the grit that they gained under Pearson and didn't have under JP.

 

2) Saga / Euell - experienced heads count for a lot, plus by being left out, they both have something to prove. I suspect, in JP's defence, their unavailability was financially driven. Either Lowe believes that by saving their wages from the first half of the season, we can now afford them, or he realises it is **** or bust time. Either way, we're a better team with them in than out.

It was a terrible decision to let all our recognised strikers leave. Did they really think it would work with just DMG???

 

My opinion is JP was too nice a guy to be a manager. The early signs were good (Derby and both B'ham fixtures), but when the chips were down and you needed to be a bit of bastard, JP didn't rally the troops.

 

For me he just doesn't have the experience necessary. It continues to baffle me as to why we appointed him over Wotte in the first place.

[spyinthesky]

If you look on the Cardiff City Website (or it could have been BBC Wales) Dave Jones makes some favourable comments about the Saints

 

He also mentions a ppre season chat with our esteemed chairman in which Rupert boasted about how his youngsters would take the Championship by storm.

 

Dave Jones indicated that you need a mixture of youth and experience in this Division as any one with any football knowledge would have agreed with

 

I am sure if we had had a big ugly centre half and a big ugly target man from day 1 we would not be in our current parlous position

[Whitey Grandad]

If you look on the Cardiff City Website (or it could have been BBC Wales) Dave Jones makes some favourable comments about the Saints

 

He also mentions a ppre season chat with our esteemed chairman in which Rupert boasted about how his youngsters would take the Championship by storm.

 

Dave Jones indicated that you need a mixture of youth and experience in this Division as any one with any football knowledge would have agreed with

 

I am sure if we had had a big ugly centre half and a big ugly target man from day 1 we would not be in our current parlous position

Which youngsters might they be? Where has he been hiding them?

[sidthesquid]

This thread should be merged - can you do that? - with the one about Lowe's experiment being not completely wrong

[Golden Balls]

To me the key "rumour" was of Adam Lallana on a night out in Bournemouth chatting with fans and saying he'd had to pay to sign up to Fitness First as he wasn't fit enough for his body to overcome all the little niggling injuries that are part and parcel of life as a pro.

 

He wouldn't have to pay! All Saints and Bournemouth players get free membership at Fitness First.

[Frank's cousin]

Surely you're not trying to put the blame of this folly on the fans;)?????

 

Having spoken to many in and around the Club, it is clear that this Revolutionary Coaching Set Up along with it's Total Football and the role of the youth was Lowe's brainchild, so it will be interesting to read what his post experiment notes look like (and maybe get Chris Iwelumo's thoughts as well, because IMHO he also has a lot to answer for).

 

Looking back it just beggars belief as to why we went lock, stock and barrel with this route at such a critical time.

 

It was one hell of a gamble and one that we may yet pay the price for.

 

We do have every chance of getting out of this, but if we do, then the folly of this experiment should not be glossed over or forgotten about come the end of the season, as we must ensure we do not repeat these horrendous errors.

 

I know what that would mean for me, i.e. the removal of Lowe from the CEO position and PLC Chairman, as it was a gross misjudgement, but I'm sure others will have their own views as to how we ensure we don't repeat such stupid mistakes.

 

Jeez UP. only YOU would read that into my statement which has NOTHING to do with fans - It was questioning LOWE's reasoning- HE MIGHT have thought that JP had credentials that may have sat better with fans - How the feck is that blaming fans?????? Its questioning Lowe's logic FFS

 

You say critical time? financially yes, but not from a footballing perspective - we had scraped through on the last day, the board made a decsion to off load some big wage earners and thought we would have time to get a youthful side playing good enough to saty up. sure it turned out sheite, but if you are going to try experriments such as this, then when the only way is up seems a more logical time to try it...

 

 

Finally you are such a drama queen at times. 'The folly of this experiment.... It was a mistake, it did not work, and hopefully its been put right soon enough and we can survive, but the way you go on you'd think it was the end of the world....

[um pahars]

Jeez UP. only YOU would read that into my statement which has NOTHING to do with fans - It was questioning LOWE's reasoning- HE MIGHT have thought that JP had credentials that may have sat better with fans - How the feck is that blaming fans?????? Its questioning Lowe's logic FFS

 

As for being a Drama Queen, then maybe you should have considered what the little winky icon was for.

 

You say critical time? financially yes' date=' but not from a footballing perspective - we had scraped through on the last day, the board made a decsion to off load some big wage earners and thought we would have time to get a youthful side playing good enough to saty up. sure it turned out sheite, but if you are going to try experriments such as this, [b']then when the only way is up[/b] seems a more logical time to try it...

 

This failed experiment was sending us down, and it's legacy still might conspire to do just that.

 

It doesn't surprise me how you try and gloss over it's effect that it had on the Club. This is a football club and the single biggest decision is the appointment of a manager and the system within which he works.

 

Finally you are such a drama queen at times. 'The folly of this experiment.... It was a mistake' date=' it did not work, and hopefully its been put right soon enough and we can survive, but the way you go on you'd think it was the end of the world.... [/quote']

 

Of course it's not a matter of life and death, but getting all worked up by the use of the term "the folly of this experiment" and others voicing their opinion on how stupid the appointment of Poortvliet was, would suggest that you're the Drama Queen

[ottery st mary]

Rupert is an idiot. He is not a football man and at least someone finally asked him to stand aside and now there is some semblance of a football club.

 

Thank you to the Directors who asked Rupert to leave well alone. A liitle too late but at least they saw the light.. Thank you Rupert for walking away at last..Your Wife was right.

[up and away]

Given what Mark Wotte appears to be doing in rejuvenating, reuniting and reigniting the team - he wasn't my first choice, but credit now where credit is [thus far] due - am I the only one now looking at the seven months of Jan Poortvliet's reign with utter incredulity? Why was the club, and Lowe in particular, making such catastrophic decisions? The ultimate net effect of this lunacy could still be felt should MW not achieve his aim of keeping us up - like every other sane Saints fan I hope he does - and there is going to have to be some SERIOUS soul-searching by Messrs Lowe et al if it all goes belly up and we start next season in League 1.

 

I just cannot believe, particularly given the evidence of the last two games, that we were ever steered down this route in the first place. Madness, sheer madness.

 

There has been one driving force this season, our financial plight.

 

Jan Poortvliet clearly stated at the beginning of the season that all the high earners were up for sale or would be moved on if someone else would be prepared to pay their wages. He also stated that he thought it was best to prepare his team around those players he expected he would be left with, subsequently adding in those that we failed to move on. This was not some radical experiment, but having to face up to the financial mess we were in and try and implement a practical plan to get us out of this. This was not about one season but several to come, with the developing youth players providing the financial bridge.

The fact that Wotte has come in and used senior players that are now fit / available is no change. If we had had offers for those players they would now be gone and Wotte would have to manage with what remains. All we have had is a change of manager with a different style.

 

Lowe has been trying to move players on that we cannot afford and restricting what outgoings we occur by playing bonuses being paid to the more expensive pro’s. This is being portrayed as manipulating the team selection, but again the driving force for all of this is the financial mess we are in.

 

Some believe we have a major choice in the direction we go and could readily decide not to sell any players, that is ludicrous. Because of our debt, our direction has to be in compliance with the bank. If we decided to go on our own the bank will simply not follow and there is absolutely no way we can do that. You can point out that in selling these players it will readily lead to League 1 (which is a distinctly possible). But you need to understand that if you choose that route against the banks wishes, they can readily pull the plug there and then. So you would never be allowed to progress down that route anyway.

 

MLT has echoed these points along with Richards in the Echo recently. And if the bank asks us to jump through any other hoops, it will just be a question of which ones and how high.

[Whitey Grandad]

There has been one driving force this season, our financial plight.

 

Jan Poortvliet clearly stated at the beginning of the season that all the high earners were up for sale or would be moved on if someone else would be prepared to pay their wages. He also stated that he thought it was best to prepare his team around those players he expected he would be left with, subsequently adding in those that we failed to move on. This was not some radical experiment, but having to face up to the financial mess we were in and try and implement a practical plan to get us out of this. This was not about one season but several to come, with the developing youth players providing the financial bridge.

The fact that Wotte has come in and used senior players that are now fit / available is no change. If we had had offers for those players they would now be gone and Wotte would have to manage with what remains. All we have had is a change of manager with a different style.

 

Lowe has been trying to move players on that we cannot afford and restricting what outgoings we occur by playing bonuses being paid to the more expensive pro’s. This is being portrayed as manipulating the team selection, but again the driving force for all of this is the financial mess we are in.

 

Some believe we have a major choice in the direction we go and could readily decide not to sell any players, that is ludicrous. Because of our debt, our direction has to be in compliance with the bank. If we decided to go on our own the bank will simply not follow and there is absolutely no way we can do that. You can point out that in selling these players it will readily lead to League 1 (which is a distinctly possible). But you need to understand that if you choose that route against the banks wishes, they can readily pull the plug there and then. So you would never be allowed to progress down that route anyway.

 

MLT has echoed these points along with Richards in the Echo recently. And if the bank asks us to jump through any other hoops, it will just be a question of which ones and how high.

This has been a constant theme throughout this season, and with good reason. But what is often understated is the link between income through the turnstiles and performances on the pitch. Perhaps by now the bank can be persuaded that the overdraft would be reduced sooner if the better players were retained and played rather than cutting costs whatever the outcome.

[um pahars]

The fact that Wotte has come in and used senior players that are now fit / available is no change. If we had had offers for those players they would now be gone and Wotte would have to manage with what remains. All we have had is a change of manager with a different style.

 

Lowe has been trying to move players on that we cannot afford and restricting what outgoings we occur by playing bonuses being paid to the more expensive pro’s.

 

The use of the Senior players is a massive change.

 

And isn't there a contradiction here in that Poortvliet didn't play them because of playing bonuses, yet Wotte is now free to play them (and pay their appearance bonuses)???

 

And from what we have seen on the pitch and from what we have heard from his own mouth, the managers style is a big change from what we have seen before (and a good job too).

 

Some believe we have a major choice in the direction we go and could readily decide not to sell any players, that is ludicrous. Because of our debt, our direction has to be in compliance with the bank.

 

The bank will not have any say with regards day to day issues. Of course they will have to be consulted if we want to sign someone and extend the overdraft, but the agreement between the Club and the bank will be with regards the cashflow and in particular the troughs in funding throughout the year.

 

There will be a number of milestones to achieve and restrictions on how much we can borrow, but we could easily have not spent the money on Shcneiderlin and instead utilised it to fund Saga's wages.

 

Of course we must work within the financial constraints we are faced with, but that does not mean every decision we have made has been the only way we could have done things.

 

(and as someone else has pointed out, a big factor in your cash flow projections are "revenues" and the route we went down was a serious false economy with regards the top line)

[dubai_phil]

The use of the Senior players is a massive change.

 

And isn't there a contradiction here in that Poortvliet didn't play them because of playing bonuses, yet Wotte is now free to play them (and pay their appearance bonuses)???

 

And from what we have seen on the pitch and from what we have heard from his own mouth, the managers style is a big change from what we have seen before (and a good job too).

 

 

 

The bank will not have any say with regards day to day issues. Of course they will have to be consulted if we want to sign someone and extend the overdraft, but the agreement between the Club and the bank will be with regards the cashflow and in particular the troughs in funding throughout the year.

 

There will be a number of milestones to achieve and restrictions on how much we can borrow, but we could easily have not spent the money on Shcneiderlin and instead utilised it to fund Saga's wages.

 

Of course we must work within the financial constraints we are faced with, but that does not mean every decision we have made has been the only way we could have done things.

 

(and as someone else has pointed out, a big factor in your cash flow projections are "revenues" and the route we went down was a serious false economy with regards the top line)

 

I liked a comment from someone else somewhere on here along the lines of Lowe telling the bank he wouldn't do an early bird scheme - so the bank don't get cash......

 

Also I WORRY that Lowe may have found some finance to keep us going (oh heck I hope not and expect not)

 

So I go with the view - to hell with the bank, let's go down fighting and pray for a rescue

[up and away]

The use of the Senior players is a massive change.

 

And isn't there a contradiction here in that Poortvliet didn't play them because of playing bonuses, yet Wotte is now free to play them (and pay their appearance bonuses)???

 

And from what we have seen on the pitch and from what we have heard from his own mouth, the managers style is a big change from what we have seen before (and a good job too).

The basic concept of financial management still stands. Poortvliet was happy enough to use Stern John when he was available and believed to be staying. Then take into account when Poortvliet started off there was greater pressure on the wage bill than what exists now with Wotte. There is a difference with Wotte, but he will have to manage under the financial limitations we have at this time and this is going to involve the youth for a good time to come. If Saga's contract ended tomorrow, there is no way the bank would countenance a repeat of that salary.

 

The bank will not have any say with regards day to day issues. Of course they will have to be consulted if we want to sign someone and extend the overdraft, but the agreement between the Club and the bank will be with regards the cashflow and in particular the troughs in funding throughout the year.

If you want to increase your wage bill deliberately the bank can easily say NO and pull the plug. But if the bank believe you are doing everything possible to minimise any increase in the wage bill, but get saddled with additional costs by little fault of your own, this can be viewed more tolerably within certain limits. It is all about the bank having limited faith in the club, break that string of cotton and they can easily call it a day over what could be seen as a minor issue in this climate. We no longer have any cast iron guarantees from the bank to stick by us because we have already exceeded the limits they are happy to work within. Unless we have found additional capital from some where, I still doubt the banks support will extend much further although the lower interest rates MAY be helpful.

 

There will be a number of milestones to achieve and restrictions on how much we can borrow, but we could easily have not spent the money on Shcneiderlin and instead utilised it to fund Saga's wages.

Who and how we funded Schniederlin I do not know, but his wages don't come close to Saga who's basic was given as £8K per week recently.

 

Of course we must work within the financial constraints we are faced with, but that does not mean every decision we have made has been the only way we could have done things.

 

(and as someone else has pointed out, a big factor in your cash flow projections are "revenues" and the route we went down was a serious false economy with regards the top line)

The financial constraints and failure to move on high wages and gain fees for players has meant our actions have been dictated by the bank, we have had very limited room for manoeuvre. Our revenues have been declining markedly since we got relegated.

[InvictaSaint]

There has been one driving force this season, our financial plight.

 

Jan Poortvliet clearly stated at the beginning of the season that all the high earners were up for sale or would be moved on if someone else would be prepared to pay their wages. He also stated that he thought it was best to prepare his team around those players he expected he would be left with, subsequently adding in those that we failed to move on. This was not some radical experiment, but having to face up to the financial mess we were in and try and implement a practical plan to get us out of this. This was not about one season but several to come, with the developing youth players providing the financial bridge.

The fact that Wotte has come in and used senior players that are now fit / available is no change. If we had had offers for those players they would now be gone and Wotte would have to manage with what remains. All we have had is a change of manager with a different style.

 

Lowe has been trying to move players on that we cannot afford and restricting what outgoings we occur by playing bonuses being paid to the more expensive pro’s. This is being portrayed as manipulating the team selection, but again the driving force for all of this is the financial mess we are in.

 

Some believe we have a major choice in the direction we go and could readily decide not to sell any players, that is ludicrous. Because of our debt, our direction has to be in compliance with the bank. If we decided to go on our own the bank will simply not follow and there is absolutely no way we can do that. You can point out that in selling these players it will readily lead to League 1 (which is a distinctly possible). But you need to understand that if you choose that route against the banks wishes, they can readily pull the plug there and then. So you would never be allowed to progress down that route anyway.

 

MLT has echoed these points along with Richards in the Echo recently. And if the bank asks us to jump through any other hoops, it will just be a question of which ones and how high.

 

I think your arguments work to a point, and clearly the wishes of Barclays have had a major impact on who has been available to play / used. However, it would be naive to believe that the stamp of Rupert Lowe was not all over what we became at the beginning of the season. Other, more well-informed posters have made reference to Lowe's arrogance in pre-season; the idea, in his warped mind, that our kids would "take the league by storm". My belief is that that the financial constraints worked to a point, but were also a convenient rationale to allow Lowe to do something that we ALL know he had been planning for over two years; that is, show everybody else that he knows football better than the experts by making the mad Dutch experiment work.

 

If the restrictions placed on us by the bank were that severe, players would be gone by now. Contracts would have been cancelled by mutual consent, higher earners allowed the freedom to sign on somewhere else. And even if this logic is slightly flawed - and I concede that it may be - why are we now using the very personnel we were so desperate - and under pressure, apparently - to get rid of? Has our financial position improved since last September?

[um pahars]

The basic concept of financial management still stands. Poortvliet was happy enough to use Stern John when he was available and believed to be staying. Then take into account when Poortvliet started off there was greater pressure on the wage bill than what exists now with Wotte. There is a difference with Wotte, but he will have to manage under the financial limitations we have at this time and this is going to involve the youth for a good time to come. If Saga's contract ended tomorrow, there is no way the bank would countenance a repeat of that salary.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the concept of financial management doesn't stand, but you cannot ignore that Wotte has adopted a much different approach to what goes on on the pitch than what we experienced in those first 28 games.

 

And as for Stern, then Poortvliet was not happy to use John and John was marginalised from day one. At one time the lad now at Bournemouth got picked ahead of him as Poortvliet felt John did not fit in with his style of play. He even said that when John left and said City's 4-4-2 style of play would suit him better.

 

If you want to increase your wage bill deliberately the bank can easily say NO and pull the plug. But if the bank believe you are doing everything possible to minimise any increase in the wage bill, but get saddled with additional costs by little fault of your own, this can be viewed more tolerably within certain limits. It is all about the bank having limited faith in the club, break that string of cotton and they can easily call it a day over what could be seen as a minor issue in this climate. We no longer have any cast iron guarantees from the bank to stick by us because we have already exceeded the limits they are happy to work within. Unless we have found additional capital from some where, I still doubt the banks support will extend much further although the lower interest rates MAY be helpful.

 

But by keeping one of the strikers we would not have been increasing our wage bill, instead we would not have been decreasing it as much (subtle but different). And to compensate for that we could have reduced our outgoings on signing players (i.e. the Schneiderlin fee), our outgoings on other wages (Pekhart, Gasmi, Robertson, Pulis, Smith, Forecast etc).

 

And then of course that is even before we get on to the flase economy and the £££££'s in lost revenues due to falling attendances. Like many things in business (e.g. are Marketing spends effective), whilst it might be difficult to categorically prove 100%, there is no doubt that there is a link between quality, success and attendances.

 

We cut and cut and cut and found ourselves in a cycle of decline.

 

Who and how we funded Schniederlin I do not know, but his wages don't come close to Saga who's basic was given as £8K per week recently.

 

In so much as we are in an overdraft position with Barclay's then you can be sure that they funded him. And whilst his wages will not be half that of Saga (maybe even a quarter), his fee would easily have covered Saga's wages.

 

IMHO it's all about priorities and acquiring a potential young starlet who might make us a few bucks in a couple of years was not a priority when the alternative was David McGoaldrought playing up front.

 

Barclays would probably have much preferred a £30,000 a month cheque made payable to Saganowski, than a one off lump sum payable to Strasbourg.

 

The financial constraints and failure to move on high wages and gain fees for players has meant our actions have been dictated by the bank, we have had very limited room for manoeuvre. Our revenues have been declining markedly since we got relegated.

 

The overall context may have been dictated by Barclay's, but within those constraints we have power of control over which decisions we make (within reason of course).

 

The Schneiderlin fee shows we had room for manouevure, as did the other loans and signings made (along with associated agents fees etc).

 

You could take it even further and suggest trading in Lallana and/or Surman and reinvesting that money elsewhere. Not necessarily something I would have advocated, but we had a number of different strategies we could have adopted.

 

Additionally, the single biggest influence on a team is the manager, and we had choices there. With Poortvliet, we simply chose the wrong man.

[up and away]

I think your arguments work to a point, and clearly the wishes of Barclays have had a major impact on who has been available to play / used. However, it would be naive to believe that the stamp of Rupert Lowe was not all over what we became at the beginning of the season. Other, more well-informed posters have made reference to Lowe's arrogance in pre-season; the idea, in his warped mind, that our kids would "take the league by storm". My belief is that that the financial constraints worked to a point, but were also a convenient rationale to allow Lowe to do something that we ALL know he had been planning for over two years; that is, show everybody else that he knows football better than the experts by making the mad Dutch experiment work.

 

If the restrictions placed on us by the bank were that severe, players would be gone by now. Contracts would have been cancelled by mutual consent, higher earners allowed the freedom to sign on somewhere else. And even if this logic is slightly flawed - and I concede that it may be - why are we now using the very personnel we were so desperate - and under pressure, apparently - to get rid of? Has our financial position improved since last September?

 

There was and still is no way out but the youth for a few years to come. You may be extremely lucky and pick up an old pro that you can sell on at a profit to keep trading, but it is very rare. Once we were locked into the youth by the financial constraints, Lowe has had to sell this to the bank and the whole club to try make it work. Lowe looked at going Dutch a few years ago but decided against it. This time the financial limitations must have made it look far more attractive.

 

And the restrictions placed upon us by the bank have meant that players have moved on or hand their contracts cancelled by mutual consent. But if a player is not prepared to cancel his contract, do you keep paying him and allow him to leave? Where is the logic in that. Recently Euell wanted to play in the States and could have gone like Viafara, but he wanted to keep his cake and eat it. If we had any offers for these players they would have gone, we did not take their names off the transfer list, the lack of interest from other teams is what kept them here. It is one thing saying to the bank that circumstances have forced us into this position irrespective of our best efforts, than trying to tell them we are deliberately going down this road. The only improvement I can see in our financial position will be if the low interest rates have managed to have an impact? What happens if Rasiak comes back I do not know and it would not surprise me if Watford are not paying all of his salary.

[um pahars]

There was and still is no way out but the youth for a few years to come.

 

I presume no one has yet got round to mentioning this to Wotte then!!!!

[Frank's cousin]

Thing is we have had so much rumour and speculation about the finances, the odd nod from and 'insider' etc, that to work out the true picture without actually having access to the accounts and the contracts with the lenders makes it really just speculation as to whether the forced changes implemented by Lowe were as necessary as his spin would have us suggest, or whether the savings made to date have given us the opportunity to recall the older pros, I dont know. Even if the club issues a financial statement, it would be spun to support the deciosns as we know Lowe would never publically admit to and error of judgement if that were the case. Crouch will spin it the other way and that is to be expected... but the facts remain illusive.

 

As is usual with Lowe, its most likely he went to the extreme eg yes we needed to off load to demonstrate savings, but perhaps not as much as we did. The savings now having been demonstrated, and the fact it did not work, now causing a softening of that position, coupled with no one coming in for those players in the transfer window?

 

Surely, without more factual info its difficult to draw conclusions and the hope must be that for whatever reason, we are now in a position where we at least have a small chance of avoiding the drop, if Wotte can continue to get the best from the older pros supporting the more talented kids. Here's hoping.

Edited 2 March, 2009 by Frank's cousin

[Dimond Geezer]

Again had been thinking along similar lines...

 

From this distant viewpoint it seemed even in close season that the training was wrong, tales of lack of fitness, nobody given the chance to get match fit were simple indicators that I could read about here.

 

 

 

I don’t know if anybody else has mentioned this is this thread (or any other), and I apologise if it has, but I couldn’t believe the comments in the programme on Saturday from Mo Gimbel (sp), the physio. He alluded to the lack of preparation before games when JP was in charge.

I don’t have the programme to hand, so this is all from memory, but in essence the players would eat what they wanted at home, and arrive at the ground about an hour before the game, (not sure how true the last bit is because that would be 2pm!), and the pre-pre-match warm-up (the one in the changing room before the players come out and kick the balls into the crowd), was not encouraged & kept to a minimum.

 

I came to the opinion that JP was a nice guy, but a bit out of his depth, however this sort of thing is plain stupid, surely in this day and age 99% of the posters on this forum, let alone a professional sports coach, could work out that this is not conducive to a fit sportsman. It appears Wotte has now put a proper regime into practise, which it appears the players are happier with.

 

I did lol at Mick Channon leaving the players lounge after the 2.45 race, changing and getting on with the match with hardly any prep.

[trousers]

I don’t know if anybody else has mentioned this is this thread (or any other), and I apologise if it has, but I couldn’t believe the comments in the programme on Saturday from Mo Gimbel (sp), the physio. He alluded to the lack of preparation before games when JP was in charge.

I don’t have the programme to hand, so this is all from memory, but in essence the players would eat what they wanted at home, and arrive at the ground about an hour before the game, (not sure how true the last bit is because that would be 2pm!), and the pre-pre-match warm-up (the one in the changing room before the players come out and kick the balls into the crowd), was not encouraged & kept to a minimum.

 

I came to the opinion that JP was a nice guy, but a bit out of his depth, however this sort of thing is plain stupid, surely in this day and age 99% of the posters on this forum, let alone a professional sports coach, could work out that this is not conducive to a fit sportsman. It appears Wotte has now put a proper regime into practise, which it appears the players are happier with.

 

I still don't understand how Wotte seemingly had no input into how things were being run by Poortvliet if this slack regime is true. If Wotte is more of a disciplinarian (which he appears to be) can you imagine him sitting in the background watching the first team slide into apathy and not saying anything?

 

And, alternatively, what if he did start ringing alarm bells long before Poortvliet "resigned".....who was ignoring Wotte and the warning signs? Lowe? (you see, yet another example of Trousers offering balance on this 'ere forum. It is possible to be both critical of Lowe in certain areas whilst giving him the benefit of doubt in others )

[um pahars]

I still don't understand how Wotte seemingly had no input into how things were being run by Poortvliet if this slack regime is true. If Wotte is more of a disciplinarian (which he appears to be) can you imagine him sitting in the background watching the first team slide into apathy and not saying anything?

 

I have to agree, and given everyone was training together under this Revolutionary set up, then you do have to wonder why nothing was ever said!!!!

 

If things were working out, then you may have had to sit on your hands, but with things going down the pan, then why was nothing said to Poortvliet????

 

And, alternatively, what if he did start ringing alarm bells long before Poortvliet "resigned".....who was ignoring Wotte and the warning signs? Lowe?

 

Well of course it may have been bravado, but even after the Forest defeat with only 22 points from 24 games, Lowe was still bigging up the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up at the AGM.

 

For me, the error in the initial appointment was compounded by ignoring the bleeding obvious and not acting soon enough to remedy the dire situation we found ourselves in.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by up and away

There was and still is no way out but the youth for a few years to come.

I presume no one has yet got round to mentioning this to Wotte then!!!!

 

Poortvliet used senior players available to him and so has Wotte, there is no difference from that aspect. Lowe was trying to move on players and also limit the cost from playing bonuses so that impacted upon Poortvliets selection. Saga was given free reign to find another club but he could not, so ends up staying here. I would imagine the use of Skacel previously was down to forgoing the playing bonuses as with the rest of those on high salaries at the present, or we have found another way to fund them. There is a different style between Poortvliet and Wotte, but they are still using the same left overs from the expensive senior pro's.

 

The big problem we have is being able to sign any decent senior pro because we cannot afford a fee or salary. All the senior pro's we have signed are League 1 material. Looks like we have got lucky with Size, but he was definitely in that category when we signed him.

 

Lloyd James is starting to look like the classic example of why we are forced to go with the youth. Keep progressing as he is and he will far exceed our expectations of what we can reasonably get in the transfer market. Some of these developing youth players will have to be sold to bridge the financial abyss but that is the mess we are in.

[gordonToo]

MW is on the record as saying he didn't come to Southampton to be first team coach and that he joined the club as Academy manager which, to be fair, was a key position in the overall experimental setup. The problem as I see it is that JP proved unwilling, or unable, to adapt to the realities of CCC life even when it was stariing him in the face.

 

Now whether MW wants the job on a full time basis remains to be seen but it was clear from Saturday's performance that he''s able to produce a team that's signficantly more than a sum of the parts and I haven't felt able to say that since GWS was here.

[eelpie]

I believe the reason for Lowe's odd decisions is that he is a deluded fantasist, and simply believes he is god. (Small 'g')

[um pahars]

Poortvliet used senior players available to him and so has Wotte,

 

Poortvliet believed that the senior players did not play on the same wavelength as the youngsters and so was reluctant to play them!!!!

 

I can only presume you don't go to matches, don't read what is being said by many and have a tenuous grasp on reality, if you think what you are seeing & hearing now is comparable to what we were seeing under Poortvliet.

 

The "first choice team" now has only three youngsters (1 @ 20 and 2 @ 21) and has much better balance and look to it, even then 21 is not young compared to some of the players who were playing, but the main difference is the balance.

 

We've lost two from the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up and the experiment was rightly halted by Wotte, who obviously saw the same deficiencies as the majority of the fans (which was also bleeding obvious from a cursory glance at the table).

 

The financial pressures remain the same and Wotte is still working within some rather tight constraints, but the strategy on the pitch is massively different and sacking your manager and changing your style so much is worthy of being described as a U turn (although if it makes you happy, you can call it a tweak, but it still doesn't prevent Plan A from being called a failure after 6/7 months).

[up and away]

Poortvliet believed that the senior players did not play on the same wavelength as the youngsters and so was reluctant to play them!!!!

 

I can only presume you don't go to matches, don't read what is being said by many and have a tenuous grasp on reality, if you think what you are seeing & hearing now is comparable to what we were seeing under Poortvliet.

 

The "first choice team" now has only three youngsters (1 @ 20 and 2 @ 21) and has much better balance and look to it, even then 21 is not young compared to some of the players who were playing, but the main difference is the balance.

 

We've lost two from the Revolutionary Coaching Set Up and the experiment was rightly halted by Wotte, who obviously saw the same deficiencies as the majority of the fans (which was also bleeding obvious from a cursory glance at the table).

 

The financial pressures remain the same and Wotte is still working within some rather tight constraints, but the strategy on the pitch is massively different and sacking your manager and changing your style so much is worthy of being described as a U turn (although if it makes you happy, you can call it a tweak, but it still doesn't prevent Plan A from being called a failure after 6/7 months).

 

I have a tenuous grasp? is this English for the terminally thick? I have repeatedly stated to yourself that "All we have had is a change of manager with a different style." and "There is a different style between Poortvliet and Wotte, but they are still using the same left overs from the expensive senior pro's." Poortvliet would happily have continued with Stern John if he was available and the only real difference between Poortvliet and Wotte in regards to the senior players, is one extra senior player in Euell. Something we must all give Wotte credit for in using Euell in a position he has been extremely useful. If Wotton had been useful, Euell not injured or better in midfield, Svennson not injured and John available long term, we would all have seen a lot more of them under Poortvliet.

 

If someone had come in for Saga or Euell they would not be here now and we would have to rely on what was left over. There is just one plan here, to halt the financial slide into oblivion and utilise the remaining assets to the best effect. Our future is heavily dependent upon the youth players as without them developing we have next to no chance emerging from this in the long term. This is just not about this season but many more to come to get out of this mess.

[Cabrone]

Lowe just can't help putting his ill informed beak into football matters even though he knows nothing about football management.

 

Redknapp couldn't pull us out of the mire when his experiments dropped us right in it and now it remains to be seen if Wotte can undo the damage his experiments have caused in this league.

 

Whatever division we find ourselves in, whilst Lowe is around we will always be at the whim of Lowe and his mad schemes.

[Whitey Grandad]

I have a tenuous grasp? is this English for the terminally thick? I have repeatedly stated to yourself that "All we have had is a change of manager with a different style." and "There is a different style between Poortvliet and Wotte, but they are still using the same left overs from the expensive senior pro's." Poortvliet would happily have continued with Stern John if he was available and the only real difference between Poortvliet and Wotte in regards to the senior players, is one extra senior player in Euell. Something we must all give Wotte credit for in using Euell in a position he has been extremely useful. If Wotton had been useful, Euell not injured or better in midfield, Svennson not injured and John available long term, we would all have seen a lot more of them under Poortvliet.

 

If someone had come in for Saga or Euell they would not be here now and we would have to rely on what was left over. There is just one plan here, to halt the financial slide into oblivion and utilise the remaining assets to the best effect. Our future is heavily dependent upon the youth players as without them developing we have next to no chance emerging from this in the long term. This is just not about this season but many more to come to get out of this mess.

Not playing Skacel whilst he was at the club was madness.

[rallyboy]

Let us not forget that Rupert's dealings pre-Saints gave us the clue that he was the Frank Spencer of the business world so we shouldn't be surprised that his judgement is still 'a little shaky'....

[Pedro]

Whilst the financial constraints are still obviously in place, an improved gate since MW took over must be another positive.