LIVE DEBATE: The EU - in or out - Clegg vs Farage

Where's dune?

I wonder if these points will be raised?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/nick-clegg-nigel-farage-debate_b_5028849.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

I wonder if these points will be raised?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/nick-clegg-nigel-farage-debate_b_5028849.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

2 and 9 already used, definitely.

Not impressed by farage so far just relies on slogans and emotions rather than answer the real questions about jobs and trade.

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I thought both of them raised valid points. At least it’s clear where they both stand. The most important question for me that I would like a concrete answer on - How many laws in this country are made by the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? Lib Dems claim 9%, Cameron claims around 50% and Farage claims 75%+.

Initial polls give it to Nigel.

Personally I think anti EU people will go with farage and pro with clegg. Don't think it would have changed minds. Thought clegg looked slippery when he kept bringing up benefits when the debate was clearly about jobs, and also the 7% was laughable (Farage at his best with his shake of the head and "dear oh dear, what are you on")

I suspect the Westminster bubble will give it to clegg as he looked more polished, but Nigel will have nicked it with the wider public. Even Mrs duck a labour supporting NHS worker thought he seemed a " decent bloke".

I was worried Nigel would screw up, the fact he didn't and wouldn't have scared the horses is a win for me.

Farage trounced him. Loved it and can't wait for the next one.

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Farage is a very clever, polished performer. I won't be supporting either of them but I was getting a tad annoyed when Farage was just throwing arbitrary figures into the debate. And was conflating the EU with the ECHR - a bit naughty. But then Clegg didn't really challenge him much on that point

Another poll is saying that only 1 in 4 actually want to leave the EU.

I expected more answers and solutions from farage bit disapointed because normally good speaker but gave no answers about how we would keep all the jobs we will lose by being outside our biggest market. but I suppose if your not into politics or bothered by Europe I expect your watching the football on sky or law and order on ITV.

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Farage is a very clever, polished performer. I won't be supporting either of them but I was getting a tad annoyed when Farage was just throwing arbitrary figures into the debate. And was conflating the EU with the ECHR - a bit naughty. But then Clegg didn't really challenge him much on that point

 

Another poll is saying that only 1 in 4 actually want to leave the EU.

Although the ECHR is seperate from the EU, you can not be a member of the EU unless you sign up to it. The Lisbon treaty established that.

Clegg trying to claim the 6/6 bomber and peado's wouldn't have been brought to justice with out the EU was completely misleading, luckily Nigel brought up Interpol and extradition treaties prior to membership.

Personally I thought the "ref" went easy on clegg, but in any drawn match each sides supporters blame the ref.

I expected more answers and solutions from farage bit disapointed because normally good speaker but gave no answers about how we would keep all the jobs we will lose by being outside our biggest market. but I suppose if your not into politics or bothered by Europe I expect your watching the football on sky or law and order on ITV.

 

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He gave a clear answer to that. Europe will still trade with us , and as someone pointed out Ford have closed down plants anyway, and we're in the EU.

The pro EU nuts like to claim all the jobs will go and all the Brits will be sent home, its nonsense and Nigel got that over.

He gave a clear answer to that. Europe will still trade with us , and as someone pointed out Ford have closed down plants anyway, and we're in the EU.

 

The pro EU nuts like to claim all the jobs will go and all the Brits will be sent home, its nonsense and Nigel got that over.

So we all just take his word for it.I personally want to know how he plans to do it based on facts and how he will achieve it and the timescale involved and a proper plan on how ukip will run the country and create jobs has he is on record has saying there last election manifesto was complete rubbish.

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So we all just take his word for it.I personally want to know how he plans to do it based on facts and how he will achieve it and the timescale involved and a proper plan on how ukip will run the country and create jobs has he is on record has saying there last election manifesto was complete rubbish.

 

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But there are no "facts" it is subjective. You can't prove one way or anther whether 3 million jobs will be lost, just as the Scot nats can't prove that no jobs will be lost by independence. What Nigel can point to is Clegg and co, along with big business claiming not being in the eurozone would cost us jobs. They were wrong then and in my opinion they are wrong now. But nobody can say either way for sure.

Trying to scare people by claiming the jobs that are reliant on European trade will all disappear is deeply misleading. Germany trade with the Swiss, the Russians, the Americans, to imply they will cease to buy our goods and services becasue we're not in a union with them is just trying to frighten people .

I think both sung to their crowds and both can be designated winners in some sense, with perhaps Clegg taking it by a whisker. I'm sure both will wish for a bounce on the back of this. The main thing was Passion and if I may insert my own opinion here a lack of facts (by Farage) vs. a very factual debate by Clegg who stuck to his figures. I know which argument type I prefer.

Also interesting is apparently that Clegg won on TV and Farage on radio... doesn't surprise me if true!

I think both sung to their crowds and both can be designated winners in some sense, with perhaps Clegg taking it by a whisker. I'm sure both will wish for a bounce on the back of this. The main thing was Passion and if I may insert my own opinion here a lack of facts (by Farage) vs. a very factual debate by Clegg who stuck to his figures. I know which argument type I prefer.

 

Also interesting is apparently that Clegg won on TV and Farage on radio... doesn't surprise me if true!

What factual debate was there from Clegg?

The "fact" that 3 million jobs would be lost if we left?

The "fact" that murderers and paedos wouldn't be sent back to the UK

The "fact" that UK citizens would be sent home.

The "fact" that companies would close down and move abroad or not come at all.

The "fact" that only 7% of laws come from the EU?

There were no facts, just opinions, twisting of certain statistics and as Clegg said himself "small print".

The best thing about it is the establishment and anti Farage people trying to twist one "fact". The fact that in the publicly accepted measure Farage won. The bookies are paying out on a Nigel win. Yet Bilko Robinson on the BBC , the Torygraph, and other assorted experts are trying to claim otherwise. What is it about the public and their opinions that they dislike so much. Personally I thought it was pretty even, but the polls had Farage as the clear winner. Perhaps the great unwashed saw through Cleggs "facts". Perhaps the great unwashed won't be fooled again by Clegg.

Farage had the better of it.

Boiled down, Clegg was using the politics of fear in the voice of hope. Spoke about Nissan's 7K jobs, but skipped over the Southampton Ford closure. Came across as a simpering globalist lapdog.

Farage won it clearly. Clegg looked as if he had been shaken a few times and lost his composure. Clegg might look better against Cameron or Milliband because they are equally adept in waffle, but Farage has the common touch and the ability to speak using language that the man in the street can understand. People prefer straight talkers instead of the typical politicians who don't answer questions and then pretend that they have if challenged on it.

I would be interested to read UKIP's policies on health, education, social services, jobs...........

Farage won it clearly. Clegg looked as if he had been shaken a few times and lost his composure. Clegg might look better against Cameron or Milliband because they are equally adept in waffle, but Farage has the common touch and the ability to speak using language that the man in the street can understand. People prefer straight talkers instead of the typical politicians who don't answer questions and then pretend that they have if challenged on it.

I've lost count of the number of times one of the liblabcon politicians answers the question about low skill migrants taking jobs with a answer about welfare.Time and time again on question time, any questions or other political shows, they bang on about welfare claimants when the issue is migrants taking low skilled jobs and deflating wages. Thank god last night Nigel nailed clegg on this and made him look shifty. Cleggy kept digging answering about welfare, instead of addressing the fundamental fact that the EU dictates our immigration policy when it comes to other EU members. Why do liblabcon politicians try to make out they have some say or are somehow in control of it. Clegg was trying to twist words and the whole audience knew it.

Given staying in Europe or leaving it are both valid options, why the constant human craving for someone to 'win' a debate on the topic? Surely being alive on this speck of a planet is a miraculous victory in itself?

What factual debate was there from Clegg?

 

The "fact" that 3 million jobs would be lost if we left?

The "fact" that murderers and paedos wouldn't be sent back to the UK

The "fact" that UK citizens would be sent home.

The "fact" that companies would close down and move abroad or not come at all.

The "fact" that only 7% of laws come from the EU?

 

There were no facts, just opinions, twisting of certain statistics and as Clegg said himself "small print".

 

The best thing about it is the establishment and anti Farage people trying to twist one "fact". The fact that in the publicly accepted measure Farage won. The bookies are paying out on a Nigel win. Yet Bilko Robinson on the BBC , the Torygraph, and other assorted experts are trying to claim otherwise. What is it about the public and their opinions that they dislike so much. Personally I thought it was pretty even, but the polls had Farage as the clear winner. Perhaps the great unwashed saw through Cleggs "facts". Perhaps the great unwashed won't be fooled again by Clegg.

I agree, but wasn't it always going to be this way Lord Duckhunter?

I'm not sure it tells us anything that we didn't already know. The YouGov poll wasn't about the issues in isolation, it was more a popularity contest for the protagonists.

For the record I should say that I also felt that Farage won the debate on jingoistic passion and rhetorical terms, and although I despise the politician Nick Clegg, I felt he won the debate on debating terms.

Farage will therefore be seen as the winner, which lends any 'victory' that Clegg enjoyed a hollowness that makes it look academic and irrelevant.

I had assumed that Farage would trounce Clegg, after all Clegg was up against a one-policy party and debating that one policy. That Clegg didn't in the end get trounced may give him a bounce and make him appear THE pro-European in coming elections.

I thought it was a stupid move by Clegg before the debate, now I'm not so sure.

Disclosure: I'm pro-Europe, anti-Clegg and I find myself warming to Farage the politician.

I would be interested to read UKIP's policies on health, education, social services, jobs...........

Some bullet points on this Beeb article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22396690

I would be interested to read UKIP's policies on health, education, social services, jobs...........

Let's get Nigel on the leaders debates for the General Election and their policies can be debated fully. This was about Europe , apart from the biased host trying to throw Nigel a curve ball around gay marriage.

I wouldn't mind Farage as a minister in a coalition government. Trouble is there isn't a single one of the rest of the party you'd want even as an MP.

Let's get Nigel on the leaders debates for the General Election and their policies can be debated fully. This was about Europe , apart from the biased host trying to throw Nigel a curve ball around gay marriage.

Nick Ferrari is biased, yes.

Former Fox News executive, chum/acolyte of Murdoch, potential Tory candidate for Mayor back in the day, the go-to rent - a - gob right wing commentator the news stations go to.

Yes, he is biased.

to be fair the one who has most to fear is cameron has the bulk of ukip support our former conservatives,the fact is it could give the next election to labour by default by havng a split conservative vote even if cameron polls more votes .which is a shame has i thought coalition has done a good job and would like to see another one after the next election.

How many times did Clegg say "I accept", just give us the vote on Europe.

to be fair the one who has most to fear is cameron has the bulk of ukip support our former conservatives,the fact is it could give the next election to labour by default by havng a split conservative vote even if cameron polls more votes .which is a shame has i thought coalition has done a good job and would like to see another one after the next election.

That's the lie Labour politicians tell themselves to get off to sleep each night. The assumption that only right wingers want a referendum or immigration control is a false one. Gillian Duffy is proof enough of that.

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/03/05/analysis-ukip-voters/

UKIP voters: older and poorer than Tories – but LESS right-wing

That's the lie Labour politicians tell themselves to get off to sleep each night. The assumption that only right wingers want a referendum or immigration control is a false one. Gillian Duffy is proof enough of that.

Too be fair many on here think or thought I was somebody else due to posts on here, I have always been Labour and yet sceptical of Europe and its benefits, I recently left the party as their stance of proportional representation, Europe and elitist top tier turns me away from them.

UKIP voters: older and poorer than Tories – but LESS right-wing

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/03/05/analysis-ukip-voters/

That may be the average but based on that report I'd say it looks like that UKIP has a mix - working class ex labour voters and traditionalist tories.

Too be fair many on here think or thought I was somebody else due to posts on here, I have always been Labour and yet sceptical of Europe and its benefits, I recently left the party as their stance of proportional representation, Europe and elitist top tier turns me away from them.

They're all neo-liberals, all slaves to central banking and apart from Farage, all signed up for this European super-state that is being created by stealth.

Clegg was banging on about a referendum if there is any further change to sovereignty. The framework is already in place and the damage has already been done.

That's the lie Labour politicians tell themselves to get off to sleep each night. The assumption that only right wingers want a referendum or immigration control is a false one. Gillian Duffy is proof enough of that.

They're all neo-liberals, all slaves to central banking and apart from Farage, all signed up for this European super-state that is being created by stealth.

 

Clegg was banging on about a referendum if there is any further change to sovereignty. The framework is already in place and the damage has already been done.

People in their naivety and lack of political nous believe its solely the right who are against Europe when the truth is its probably about 50/50, what has the working man got out of Europe? What have they given up without being told about it? A Liberal elite experiment thats out of date and undemocratic.

A great man today is being buried and he was as anti European as you will find.

Nick Ferrari is biased, yes.

 

Former Fox News executive, chum/acolyte of Murdoch, potential Tory candidate for Mayor back in the day, the go-to rent - a - gob right wing commentator the news stations go to.

 

Yes, he is biased.

Definitely got a face for radio, though.

Doing a little bit of fact-checking on some of the points.

I may have interpreted this incorrectly, but Clegg looks to be demonstrably lying when he says (of Farage's remarks about Andrew Symeou):-

"This is fantasy. This is fantasy. This is complete fantasy".

According to this, Farage was generally correct.

http://www.fairtrials.org/press/after-a-four-year-ordeal-andrew-symeou-is-cleared-by-greek-courts/

Think the only point of dispute is the length of time Symeou spent in a Greek nick. Just under a year, as opposed to over a year. That said, the ordeal lasted four years start to finish.

Doing a little bit of fact-checking on some of the points.

 

I may have interpreted this incorrectly, but Clegg looks to be demonstrably lying when he says (of Farage's remarks about Andrew Symeou):-

 

"This is fantasy. This is fantasy. This is complete fantasy".

 

According to this, Farage was generally correct.

 

http://www.fairtrials.org/press/after-a-four-year-ordeal-andrew-symeou-is-cleared-by-greek-courts/

 

Think the only point of dispute is the length of time Symeou spent in a Greek nick. Just under a year, as opposed to over a year. That said, the ordeal lasted four years start to finish.

He also misled the audience with his 7% nonsense. A research paper from the house of commons from Oct 2010 concluded that to judge the impact of EU rules you need to include "not only EU law, but directives, statutory instruments, other initiatives and agreements in trade, fishing and agriculture".

The population of Romania and Bulgaria was 29 million in 2007, so Nigel was right about that point also. It is now 27 million, but 29 million Bulgarian and Romanian people have the right to work in England.

One thing that has shocked me is the establishments response. The daily mail and torygraph are really going after Nigel today with blogger after blogger tries to rewrite what happened last night.

72% of the population want a vote on it so irrespective of opinion of in or out matters not as not giving the vote to the people is a denial of democracy.

One thing that has shocked me is the establishments response. The daily mail and torygraph are really going after Nigel today with blogger after blogger tries to rewrite what happened last night.

You're not as suspicious as me, Lord D. There has been an ongoing effort to discredit UKIP and/or Farage for some time. I'm not surprised at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10725571/Verdict-who-won-in-the-Clegg-v-Farage-debate.html

It'd be fine if papers just reported the news; for me, they're too often involved in making it. There was a recent case where a UKIP bigwig was pulled on something he said in 2006 about Muslims, just a year after the 7/7 bombings. He repeated his view, presumably not wanting to be labelled a hypocrite and hey presto - a "fresh" UKIP story (much like the resurrected Harman story recently).

Cameron thought we should have a referendum back in his cycling days (remember that twát?). The public had to demand one through a petition, and he very publicly chickened out on the issue, despite a broad base of support among its backbenchers. Clegg called for a referendum too. Miliband has already ruled one out.

Someone doesn't want us leaving the EU. UKIP is the only party that will credibly provide a referendum and Farage is their most credible politician. I'd expect both party and man to be the subject of negative headlines until after the general election.

it felt like a slightly unfair fight, in that the European debate is Farage's specialist (and perhaps only) subject. I wondered how they would fair in an open debate. Perhaps Farage would be the one on the back foot. In this debate Farage's replies and arguments mostly felt very natural, whilst Clegg often fell back on very polished speeches and sound bites, which immediately made me switch off. Opposite opinions and good genuine arguments from knowledgeable people is interesting. Non stop 3 minutes political speeches, less so.

You're not as suspicious as me, Lord D. There has been an ongoing effort to discredit UKIP and/or Farage for some time. I'm not surprised at all.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10725571/Verdict-who-won-in-the-Clegg-v-Farage-debate.html

 

It'd be fine if papers just reported the news; for me, they're too often involved in making it. There was a recent case where a UKIP bigwig was pulled on something he said in 2006 about Muslims, just a year after the 7/7 bombings. He repeated his view, presumably not wanting to be labelled a hypocrite and hey presto - a "fresh" UKIP story (much like the resurrected Harman story recently).

 

Cameron thought we should have a referendum back in his cycling days (remember that twát?). The public had to demand one through a petition, and he very publicly chickened out on the issue, despite a broad base of support among its backbenchers. Clegg called for a referendum too. Miliband has already ruled one out.

 

Someone doesn't want us leaving the EU. UKIP is the only party that will credibly provide a referendum and Farage is their most credible politician. I'd expect both party and man to be the subject of negative headlines until after the general election.

A bit like me when I first came on here then and said similar things about Europe, quickly labelled as a right winger and he usual garbage from the extreme left.

What factual debate was there from Clegg?

 

The "fact" that 3 million jobs would be lost if we left?

The "fact" that murderers and paedos wouldn't be sent back to the UK

The "fact" that UK citizens would be sent home.

The "fact" that companies would close down and move abroad or not come at all.

The "fact" that only 7% of laws come from the EU?

 

There were no facts, just opinions, twisting of certain statistics and as Clegg said himself "small print".

 

The best thing about it is the establishment and anti Farage people trying to twist one "fact". The fact that in the publicly accepted measure Farage won. The bookies are paying out on a Nigel win. Yet Bilko Robinson on the BBC , the Torygraph, and other assorted experts are trying to claim otherwise. What is it about the public and their opinions that they dislike so much. Personally I thought it was pretty even, but the polls had Farage as the clear winner. Perhaps the great unwashed saw through Cleggs "facts". Perhaps the great unwashed won't be fooled again by Clegg.

Yes indeed, and stop cherry picking and misrepresenting. It was clear last night that Clegg was calmer and relied on a factual debate whereas Farage went for passion. I'm sure both will find their audiences. As you say, it was even... because both managed to appeal to their own crowd. I say Clegg won because I respect his debating style much more because it is grounded in reality.

And I really don't know wtf you are on about the 'great unwashed'.

I say Clegg won because I respect his debating style much more because it is grounded in reality.

 

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So Clegg won because you thought he did. Do you do that when saints play, after Sundays game did you think we won or lost. I thought the game was pretty even ,but we lost 3-2.Were you running around telling everyone that saints won because you like them more than spurs?

Clegg lost, the bookies paid out on Nigel. Being a fan of facts I don't understand why you can't grasp that. Same with that Dan Hodges he declared a win for cleggy and claims the polls were wrong. FFS even the guardian reported clear win for Nigel.

it felt like a slightly unfair fight, in that the European debate is Farage's specialist (and perhaps only) subject. I wondered how they would fair in an open debate. Perhaps Farage would be the one on the back foot. In this debate Farage's replies and arguments mostly felt very natural, whilst Clegg often fell back on very polished speeches and sound bites, which immediately made me switch off. Opposite opinions and good genuine arguments from knowledgeable people is interesting. Non stop 3 minutes political speeches, less so.

Agree with this, maybe slightly unfair given that this is Farage's "specialist subject" and UKIP's main campaigning and fighting point. Very easy to seem like the preferable option when only focussing on one particular aspect of what would have to be a very broad manifesto if they were to actually challenge in the general election.

So Clegg won because you thought he did. Do you do that when saints play, after Sundays game did you think we won or lost. I thought the game was pretty even ,but we lost 3-2.Were you running around telling everyone that saints won because you like them more than spurs?

 

Clegg lost, the bookies paid out on Nigel. Being a fan of facts I don't understand why you can't grasp that. Same with that Dan Hodges he declared a win for cleggy and claims the polls were wrong. FFS even the guardian reported clear win for Nigel.

36% reported Clegg won, I am one of those 36% and that is an impressive score for an establishment figure. Crucially Clegg won in Labour supporters. Also, the poll gave extremely heavy weighting to UKIP supporters. I guess we will see come the General Election whether they get such levels or not, I suspect not although I do think they will probably win the EU elections next week and there is a huge danger the Liberal Democrats could be wiped out. But the Generals are a totally different story, I would expect 30-40 seats for the Lib Dems there based on various indicators.

And how can you possibly compare a football match where there is a quantitative and objective winner to a debate where it is so subjective. Poor analogy.

36% reported Clegg won, I am one of those 36% and that is an impressive score for an establishment figure. Crucially Clegg won in Labour supporters. Also, the poll gave extremely heavy weighting to UKIP supporters.

 

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How did the poll give " extremely heavy weighting to UKIP supporters." What complete and utter nonsense.

Clegg and Farage debate the EU. Clegg the "party of in", Nigel clearly wanting out. In a few weeks we'll get the chance to see how impressed the country is with Clegg. We have the perfect opportunity, how many people are persuaded to vote for the "party of in" and Clegg's "facts". The election is about Europe, the election is even held under Cleggy's beloved voting system. How many MEP's will Clegg get and How many will Nigel get?

History tells us that the more the country see of Clegg the less they like him. Clegg gets equal billing with Cameron and Brown and gets 3 debates to impress the country. I know the establishment tried to tell us how well Cleggy did, but what was the result of this increased exposure ? They lost seats. After 4 years of increased exposure in his establishment role of Deputy PM, what is the outcome? They keep losing deposits and even lost to the Elvis bus pass candidate. I guess the number of MEP's they get after Clegg's "party of in" waffle and debate with Nigel will show how popular his views on Europe are, and how impressed the ordinary voter was by his performance.I would suggest that yet again increased exposure for Clegg will result in a loss of MEP's

How did the poll give " extremely heavy weighting to UKIP supporters." What complete and utter nonsense.

 

 

Clegg and Farage debate the EU. Clegg the "party of in", Nigel clearly wanting out. In a few weeks we'll get the chance to see how impressed the country is with Clegg. We have the perfect opportunity, how many people are persuaded to vote for the "party of in" and Clegg's "facts". The election is about Europe, the election is even held under Cleggy's beloved voting system. How many MEP's will Clegg get and How many will Nigel get?

 

History tells us that the more the country see of Clegg the less they like him. Clegg gets equal billing with Cameron and Brown and gets 3 debates to impress the country. I know the establishment tried to tell us how well Cleggy did, but what was the result of this increased exposure ? They lost seats. After 4 years of increased exposure in his establishment role of Deputy PM, what is the outcome? They keep losing deposits and even lost to the Elvis bus pass candidate. I guess the number of MEP's they get after Clegg's "party of in" waffle and debate with Nigel will show how popular his views on Europe are, and how impressed the ordinary voter was by his performance.I would suggest that yet again increased exposure for Clegg will result in a loss of MEP's

I think the ordinary voter thinks both clegg and farage are both Pratt's and I don't think the euro elections will have a high turnout except for the die hards.has for the general election they only thing ukip will achieve is hand the election to labour.

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36% reported Clegg won, I am one of those 36% and that is an impressive score for an establishment figure. Crucially Clegg won in Labour supporters. Also, the poll gave extremely heavy weighting to UKIP supporters. I guess we will see come the General Election whether they get such levels or not, I suspect not although I do think they will probably win the EU elections next week and there is a huge danger the Liberal Democrats could be wiped out. But the Generals are a totally different story, I would expect 30-40 seats for the Lib Dems there based on various indicators.

 

And how can you possibly compare a football match where there is a quantitative and objective winner to a debate where it is so subjective. Poor analogy.

No real person of the left would ever consider the Liberals, a party of tories with a small conscience of their actions.

No real person of the left would ever consider the Liberals, a party of tories with a small conscience of their actions.

Sounds like inverted snobbery you associated with the blue blood brigade of years gone by.

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