Verbal

She knows what the implications are though. The government is going to fall.

This talk of 'punishment' is yet more evidence of how little we in the UK even understand about what the EU is. It is not a state, and not even a superstate. It is a legal order which exists entirely through agreed treaties between the member countries. Without those treaties it is nothing. Those treaties set out the strict rules of conduct, if you will, that those members must follow. While there's some wiggle room for opt outs (and we're not the only ones not in the Eurozone), these rules establish above all the 'four freedoms' on which the whole economy within the EU works, as well as a common regulatory framework. Anything else and those treaties fail. So it's not for the EU, or individual members, to say that we can set aide one of those freedoms just for the sake of a 'deal'. Nor can we demand access to the 'good bits' of the EU and discard the 'bad bits' (despite this being the whole premise of the leave campaign). May, the Brexit Jihadists and even the Labour party have treated the whole thing as a transactional negotiation. It isn't. It's about squaring our 'needs' (whatever that might mean) with the rules of the EU. If we'd adopted that approach at the beginning, we wouldn't be staring into the abyss now. We'd have opted for Norway + customs union, at worst. But we are where we are, and the British people are going to have to take the hit for May's ignorance and for the leading Brexiteers' hardly secret desires to massively reduce the welfare state, along US Republican lines. What the Jihadists don't say - because they lied about it on the bus - is that the biggest target of all is the NHS, which American private health companies have had their beady eyes on, and who've been negotiating with Dr Fox ever since his appointment.

Are you going? If so, what as?

You really need a history lesson. There were two supposed culprits in the execution of Jesus - Pontius Pilote and the Jews. Roman Corbyn would have hopped onto the Roman precursor of Press TV and blamed the Jews. And by the way, is there anywhere in the Corbynist cult a justification for present-day Corbyn taking money from the Islamo-fascist regime in Tehran to work for a TV station that was banned by Ofcom for forcing a torture victim of the regime to 'confess' their crimes while the torturer sat off-camera?

Quite right. What do you expect from those damned Jews? They got together and invented the whole thing. All of it. It's all a smear against the greatest Man of Peace since Jesus. And you know who killed Him, right?

Christ. Here I am agreeing with Batman against the tw atosphere.

I don't think I've heard a better, more eloquent takedown of one of Trump's key racist talking points - NFL players 'taking the knee'. Peto O'Rourke is going to go far - something of Robert Kennedy about him.

What ludicrous tosh. If you actually believe this then you really are gullibly receptive to the manipulative crap from the Putin troll factories. Most people can see through this 'why can't we see them daub the front door' nonsense quite easily.

Another one who doesn't understand the distinction between health and welfare. Why is that even surprising?

Not to mention that the EU have sworn never to go down the Swiss route ever again, for very good reasons. The upshot of all of this is that regardless of which side of the debate you're on, the UK has become a highly volatile country, where it's simply unsafe for many companies to make large investment commitments, and where it's safe to assume that many of those companies, especially those relying on JIT, will have to look ever more closely at relocating within the EU. Even Minford accepts, and even assumes, the rapid decline of British manufacturing post-Brexit. And that means, higher-paid, higher-skilled jobs will decline with it. This instability has seen the cliff-fall of inward investment, which will work its way through the economy like woodworm. The erosion of the City, as a world-leading financial powerhouse, will also slash government tax receipts by billions. Then again, there's no parliamentary majority for ANY of this.

It's utterly baffling that you cannot accept a simple demonstrable fact. And your failure enrages you so much that you stomp off in a tantrum rather than admit you're wrong. The last time I saw someone behave in quite this way was in primary school.

I hate to break it to you but the welfare and health budgets are and always have been separate. It amazes me that you've reached beyond puberty (if so) without knowing this. Here'a a breakdown of UK public spending so that you can catch up on your lost years. https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_health_care_spending_10.html

Here's how totally fu cked the British far left are. (And it hardly speaks that well of some British universities)... Anyone who's read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago or One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich will have some idea of the sheer horror of the Soviet gulag system. As a means of brutal, de-humanising oppression, used especially against dissenters, it's unparalleled - reducing people to the non-living without (some of the time) actually killing them. So here's an anonymous LGBTQ Twitter account at Goldsmith's London seriously telling us why gulags are actually a good thing for those - 'bigots' - who disagree with them (especially, I notice, a number of feminist academics who object to the bullying behaviour of some trans activists). https://twitter.com/lgbtqgold/status/1039140880731521025 Are these people actually Corbynists? I don't know. I doubt they're Blairite Red Tories though. In any case, this is truly poisonous stuff, and on a par with Holocaust denial.

Wait. So you attack my argument about welfare cuts with an image about a (fake) promise about health? You do realise welfare and health are different things entirely, right?

I suspect the one thing the headbangers do agree on is that what worked in June 2016 should work again now. So never, ever lay out a plan. Always be the opposition to everything. Never give your opponent the opportunity to see what you really have in mind. Not that any of the actual plan would have been controversial. Like sending an 'expeditionary force' to the Falklands (WTF?), building a union-jacked 'Star Wars' missile defence system (WTAF?), and giving such massive tax breaks to the rich that the only way to pay for it is basically to shut down the UK's welfare system (that one I get - it's always been the ultimate unstated aim of the financiers of Brexit).

Have you considered running for the presidency of the United States? It's just that you share patterns of linguistic incoherence with a certain someone - and his massive sense of paranoiac grievance.

Welcome back, our very own Saintsweb Schlemiel! I'm a bit surprised though that you and the other Lounge Clowns for Brexit haven't challenged Honda on how to build cars. Any thoughts? Some expertise on abandoning just-in-time manufacturing altogether, perhaps? And nothing at all to say on the Is-Jezza's-a-Jew-hater thread? Disappointing.

Some interesting facts from those nice people at the Honda factory in Swindon: Car components arrive less than an hour before they are used on the assembly line. The plant receives 350 truck deliveries of EU-sourced parts every single working day. The plant only has warehouse storage to stockpile half a day's worth of components. The loss of free movement of goods within a customs union will mean the Swindon plant will cost Honda an extra £1m to run, every single day - over a third of a billion every year. I wonder what the outcome of all that will be...?

You've read it on this thread where I've advocated the Norway option (plus customs union). But it's all too late JJ. It's Chequers or bust - and there's no parliamentary majority for either. No one can deliver anything. It's a complete stalemate, and the only way out, so the argument goes, is the mother of all fudges, in which May gets to kick the problem even further down the road. But - guess what? There's no parliamentary majority for that either.

Poverty is defined absolutely nowhere as 'people dying from hunger'. That's an absurd statement.

Leadership election, Lord Torycrap, not general. That should have been obvious, given that's what we're talking about. The wheels are just about to fall off Chequers, remember? Keep up! I'm not sure you're managing this being-a-Tory-member thing at all well - and it's such early days! And now you're a loyal Tory, and so officially dedicated to fu cking people over who are less fortunate then you, let's hear you sing the praises of your great leader. And perhaps a curtsy?

The way things have gone today, it's pretty clear there'll be an election challenge over the Chequers deal well before the November deadline. As I said, Lord Crap hasn't thought this through and he's going to have to watch impotently on the sidelines. And he's still missing an essential ingredient in the Tory party rules that's going to send his £6 down the swanny. I wonder if he can spot it.

Just wondering when the legitimate concerns and anxieties of Jews at all the bile being launched at them by Corbyn cultists will factor into your 'ridiculous hysteria'? Or are they all making it up in whatever world you live in?

Hitler's racial ideas did indeed have their antecedents, so he wasn't somehow special - he was just ripping off and bastardising already bad ideas (I've actually been in offices, with their rather creepy contents, once occupied by two of the most important and notorious precursors - Francis Galton at UCL and Charles Davenport at Cold Spring Harbour). One of the things that confuses the debate about anti-Jewish racism in the Labour party is its multiples sources. Some of it, astoundingly, is lifted straight from the Hitler playbook - and equally astoundingly there are plenty of examples of this. Here's Scott Nelson, for example - notice both his arms clasped around Corbyn in that familiar and creepily cultish way. He blathers on about the 'Jewish blood' of companies like M&S and Tesco causing deaths of workers - a classic Nazi trope. https://antisemitism.uk/scott-nelson-who-was-removed-from-the-labour-party-following-tweets-about-jewish-companies-tells-caa-he-can-apply-to-rejoin-whether-you-like-it-or-not/ Then there's the kind of Jew-hating engaged in fairly widely within Muslim communities, that's found its way into Labour because of its courting of Muslim electorates. Naz Shah's Facebook post content about relocating Jews from Israel to the US is quite typical of the things you hear (I have heard), even in 'polite' society. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44788629 Then there's what you might call political Jew hating. A classic and appalling example is the decision by the Birkenhead CLP - Frank Field's constituency party - to ban the Jewish Labour Movement from running equality and diversity workshops on anti-Semitism, on the grounds that JLM had 'possible links' with ISIS. https://twitter.com/jewishlabour/status/1035193153865826305?s=21 This is the kind of Jew-hating which also exhibits itself in Labour members hissing 'Zio' at Jewish party members in Oxford, and in the tidal wave of abuse hurled by the cult at Jewish members of parliament. And finally, there's that weird, rather genteel English Middle class anti-Semitism, in which Corbyn - born into just that world - exhibits when he drones on about the lack of 'Englishness' of Jews (whether it's some or all Jews is neither here nor there). Overlaid with this are two things. First, a relentless and cynical denialism that claims, effectively, that none of what individual Jews have complained about has any validity - thereby doubling down on the anti-Semitism itself (ie Jews as a species are making things up about Jezza's army and have no right to feel intimidated or bullied). And secondly, vanishingly few cultists seem to have any real first-hand experience of what they're talking about. I bet a large number of them have never so much as met a Palestinian. Yet out in the real world, the oppression of the Palestinians has many facets. It's not just the unjust and often violent actions of the Israeli government. As I've said before, a huge number of Palestinians (75% of Jordan's entire population, for example) now live outside Israel and the occupied territories. And they have had a terrible time. The latest serial abuser of Palestinians is Bashar Assad - Palestinian-baiting is a family tradition inherited from his father.. Here's the ever-impressive Peter Tatchell on the abuse, murder and looting carried out by Assad's forces in Yarmouk, a Palestinian refugee camp in Damascus, which, according to the UN, was 'transformed into a death camp' by the Assad regime: https://www.opendemocracy.net/north-africa-west-asia/budour-hassan/yarmouk-late-obituary-for-capital-of-palestinian-diaspora You won't find anyone in the Corbynista cult - nor even Corbyn himself - raising the issue of the oppression of Palestinians in the Arab world. It's simply airbrushed out of existence. It's just too inconvenient. And it doesn't fit the cultist narrative - that Jews alone are the cause of all evil. Until Labour expunges ALL these forms of anti-Jewish racism, the problem won't go away. Personally, I don't see that happening soon, if at all. Although not alone by any means, Labour from now on will be seen as Britain's foremost source of Jew hating.

The comparison is indeed wrong. But it also misses the point. It's not what these things are, but how they are perceived by racists. Non-England-supporting British-Pakistanis (and presumably British Indians and Sri Lankans) fail Tebbit's test of loyalty. Jews who don't get irony fail the Corbyn test of whether or not someone is truly English (no matter how long they've lived here). In both cases, people are being told that they are not properly English. And before anyone else objects that Jews are a religious group and not a race, and therefore can't be the victims of racism, try this little experiment of the imagination. Picture yourself as a German Jewish shopkeeper in Nazi Germany in 1938. You're wearing your yellow star, as required by law, and your shop has all its windows smashed out, as required by the Nazi mobs. Until now, you've been a 'good German': you fought heroically in the first world war, and you renounced your Judaism and even Germanified your surname. You have nothing that could be called faith in a Jewish god. Then one day, the SS turn up on your doorstep. They're about the cart you off to a death camp when you have a bright idea: all you need to do is tell them that you're actually not Jewish because you no longer believe in the religion. How do think that would turn out? National identity tests always end badly. For a start, they're not genuine tests. They are designed merely to stigmatise and to create the sense of an alien Other. The perfect breeding ground for the torch-burning, window-smashing mobs.