View Poll Results: Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

Voters
146. You may not vote on this poll
  • Leave Before - Leave Now

    31 21.23%
  • Leave Before - Remain Now

    8 5.48%
  • Leave Before - Not Bothered Now

    2 1.37%
  • Remain Before - Remain Now

    82 56.16%
  • Remain Before - Leave Now

    5 3.42%
  • Remain Before - Not Bothered Now

    0 0%
  • Not Bothered Before - Leave Now

    3 2.05%
  • Not Bothered Before - Remain Now

    4 2.74%
  • I've never been bothered - Why am I on this Thread?

    2 1.37%
  • No second Ref - 2016 was Definitive and Binding

    9 6.16%
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Thread: Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

  1. #14151

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    The only was today will get better is for us to put 8 passed the Skates tonight.

  2. #14152

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    The old Leave consortium splintering instantly - Farage and Tice both calling for Cummings to go and the latter saying that both Boris needs to go and Brexit delayed.

    Leave.EU spewing out more far right bile I see. With the Labour conference getting so silly, a Clarke/Harman coaltion would be a good idea for a while until the GE as an national emergency whilst the Tories and Labour recover from being drunk at the wheel and can start to kick out their entryists and clean up their acts, electing new leaders. There will be some more sensible Brexiteers that can come on board for the interim.

    GE in Nov, if that's when it is, is going to make the football tonight look like high tea by comparison.

  3. #14153

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    My © solution to the Brexit impasse. A binding referendum with the choices 'leave with no deal' and 'remain'. If there is a 60:40 majority or more for either one that is what we do. If it is less we adopt May's deal.

    Any resolution is better than the progressive breakdown we're seeing.

  4. #14154

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    There just needs to be a simple binding referendum with whatever deal Boris can come up with (or if he chooses, no deal) and remain.

    Boris was the main Brexit cheerleader, they told us it would be the easiest deal on history - get the deal and let us decide.

  5. #14155

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    There just needs to be a simple binding referendum with whatever deal Boris can come up with (or if he chooses, no deal) and remain.

    Boris was the main Brexit cheerleader, they told us it would be the easiest deal on history - get the deal and let us decide.
    Trouble with that is, its likely to be close. Another 52:48 wouldn't move us any further forward.

  6. #14156

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Trouble with that is, its likely to be close. Another 52:48 wouldn't move us any further forward.
    It would, you get Parliament to agree on the deal subject to a legally binding vote and if we vote to leave it wouldn’t have to go through Parliament again.

  7. #14157

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    As we've noticed, a lot of Brexit voters seem to be doubling down on their votes for fear of being labelled as "conned", so I was wondering if over the next few weeks Parliament were able to pass a motion into law that only leave voters are not able to claim hardship benefits if it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that the main contributor to the hardship was leaving the EU. We could also look at increasing the taxes of Brexiteers if there is a need for extra tax revenue, again, due to Brexit.
    Conversely, if by some amazing stroke of luck, we do better, then they can benefit from lower taxes and better benefits.

    At least this way it will make voters more responsible for their votes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    As we've noticed, a lot of Brexit voters seem to be doubling down on their votes for fear of being labelled as "conned", so I was wondering if over the next few weeks Parliament were able to pass a motion into law that only leave voters are not able to claim hardship benefits if it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that the main contributor to the hardship was leaving the EU. We could also look at increasing the taxes of Brexiteers if there is a need for extra tax revenue, again, due to Brexit.
    Conversely, if by some amazing stroke of luck, we do better, then they can benefit from lower taxes and better benefits.

    At least this way it will make voters more responsible for their votes.
    Are you for real?

  9. #14159

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    Quote Originally Posted by scally View Post
    Are you for real?
    Well, why not?

  10. #14160

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    What alternatives do people imagine being on any future referendum?

    Leave or Remain again? The problem there is that many people want leave, but not if it means no deal or the wrong deal, including Boris. So that doesn't really work as leave doesn't just mean leave. We've already discovered just how divided the leave side are on this issue.

    Leave with a deal
    leave with no deal
    remain?

    That doesn't work either, because the biggest single group would be remain, despite maybe over half wanting to leave altogether.

    After that it just starts to become problematically complicated with preferred and second choices or conditions.

    What would you want the alternatives to be?

  11. #14161

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    Michael Gove in Parliament yesterday;
    "The automotive sector, who I met this week, confirmed that they were ready,"

    Representatives of the automotive sector, present at the meeting;
    "I was at the meeting. There's no way that is the message he could have gone away with,"
    "No! We said we are planning as best we can, but cannot prepare for all eventualities and tariffs alone undermine our viability. We want a deal. No deal is not an option. Catastrophic."
    And a briefing note reports "leaving without a deal is the worst possible outcome".


    Reminds me of when I was working on a national IT networking project, and at one meeting 3 aides to a Labour minister attended to verify details to be included in a speech the minister was giving that afternoon. The aides listed the 4 key points, all of which, the project team asserted to them, were wrong.
    The speech went ahead without correction.
    Last edited by badgerx16; 26-09-2019 at 11:01 AM.

  12. #14162

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    What alternatives do people imagine being on any future referendum?

    Leave or Remain again? The problem there is that many people want leave, but not if it means no deal or the wrong deal, including Boris. So that doesn't really work as leave doesn't just mean leave. We've already discovered just how divided the leave side are on this issue.

    Leave with a deal
    leave with no deal
    remain?

    That doesn't work either, because the biggest single group would be remain, despite maybe over half wanting to leave altogether.

    After that it just starts to become problematically complicated with preferred and second choices or conditions.

    What would you want the alternatives to be?
    No deal was been taken off the table, so it should just be "Leave with deal" or "Remain".

  13. #14163

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    What alternatives do people imagine being on any future referendum?

    Leave or Remain again? The problem there is that many people want leave, but not if it means no deal or the wrong deal, including Boris. So that doesn't really work as leave doesn't just mean leave. We've already discovered just how divided the leave side are on this issue.

    Leave with a deal
    leave with no deal
    remain?

    That doesn't work either, because the biggest single group would be remain, despite maybe over half wanting to leave altogether.

    After that it just starts to become problematically complicated with preferred and second choices or conditions.

    What would you want the alternatives to be?
    Surely as Boris was the main Brexit cheerleader he knows what leave means, and we are kept being told leavers knew what they were voting for.

    So it's quite simple, whatever leave Boris comes up with vs remain.

  14. #14164

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    Surely as Boris was the main Brexit cheerleader he knows what leave means, and we are kept being told leavers knew what they were voting for.

    So it's quite simple, whatever leave Boris comes up with vs remain.
    I think the funniest thing is how will he deal with the campaign for a General Election. Will he go for "Deal" or "No Deal"?

  15. #14165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    I think the funniest thing is how will he deal with the campaign for a General Election. Will he go for "Deal" or "No Deal"?
    It will be interesting to see what deal he comes back with, my guess that he won't get anything substantially different to May's which is why he is so desperate for a GE before October 31st.

  16. #14166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    No deal was been taken off the table.....,...
    I am certain that Cummins et al are currently cooking up another of their cunning schemes to try to find a way around the Benn Act, and force no-deal on Halloween.

  17. #14167

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    I am certain that Cummins et al are currently cooking up another of their cunning schemes to try to find a way around the Benn Act, and force no-deal on Halloween.
    He has to wrote a letter to the EU asking for an extension. He can do that but then also write another letter saying ignore the first one and dont give us any extension.

  18. #14168

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    I am certain that Cummins et al are currently cooking up another of their cunning schemes to try to find a way around the Benn Act, and force no-deal on Halloween.
    I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators. Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents
    I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.

  19. #14169

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators. Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents
    I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.
    You really think that Johnson's bunch are trying to negotiate a deal. Really???

  20. #14170

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators. Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents
    I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.
    Do you really think the threat of no-deal made that much difference? The EU know that no deal would be much worse for us than it would for them, and more importantly they know that we know that. They know it's only "on the table" to act as a threat not because we actually want it to happen. It's a blazing saddles, don't move or I will shoot myself in the head, situation.

  21. #14171

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators. Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents
    I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.
    Parliament taking no deal off Boris is like a responsible adult taking a pair of sharp scissors off a toddler.

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  22. #14172

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    No deal was been taken off the table, so it should just be "Leave with deal" or "Remain".
    Thing is it hasn't, it's still the default position. Plus, many brexiteers will have you believe that they voted to leave deal or no deal. I find that hard to believe but the point should be tested. I voted leave, but no way did I want or anticipate a no deal car crash. Any further public vote should be on the best / final eu deal on the table that Parliament would endorse if the public do, or leave with no deal, or remain. All subject to a simple majority and on the basis that leaving is within a short finite period, say 3 months.

  23. #14173

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators.Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents
    I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.
    Binge-watching the Apprentice again Nick?

  24. #14174

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    I really can't fathom people who think keeping no deal on the table in a negotiating plus. Threatening to do much more damage to your own economy than theirs is hardly going to make them lose sight of the importance of retaining a viable solution to the open Irish border in any potential deal.

  25. #14175

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Thing is it hasn't, it's still the default position. Plus, many brexiteers will have you believe that they voted to leave deal or no deal. I find that hard to believe but the point should be tested. I voted leave, but no way did I want or anticipate a no deal car crash. Any further public vote should be on the best / final eu deal on the table that Parliament would endorse if the public do, or leave with no deal, or remain. All subject to a simple majority and on the basis that leaving is within a short finite period, say 3 months.
    I was being sarcastic tbf - **** knows what will happen. All I know is there are divides in this country that will never be healed.

  26. #14176

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    Jess phillips receiving death threats directly quoting the PM and now her office on lockdown; lawyers involved in the Supreme Court prorogation case forced to wear stabproof vests.

    Those leftie extremists sure do get around a fair bit

    #bothsides
    Last edited by shurlock; 26-09-2019 at 06:11 PM.

  27. #14177

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    The PR plan is so transparent.
    Cummings has workshopped expressions and told Boris and his loyal puppet army to chuck in the words surrender, traitor, chickens running away from the voters etc at every opportunity, to build a fake message.
    It's strong and stable all over again - and the dim are lapping it up.
    Meanwhile people are getting death threats, and chaos reigns.
    The type of chaos that hedge funds love....

  28. #14178

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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyboy View Post
    The PR plan is so transparent.
    Cummings has workshopped expressions and told Boris and his loyal puppet army to chuck in the words surrender, traitor, chickens running away from the voters etc at every opportunity, to build a fake message.
    It's strong and stable all over again - and the dim are lapping it up.
    Meanwhile people are getting death threats, and chaos reigns.
    The type of chaos that hedge funds love....
    They’re not even attempting to hide it. There’s nothing novel or clever about it; you just have to look at the discourse and language on here over the last three years to see what sells.
    Last edited by shurlock; 26-09-2019 at 06:25 PM.

  29. #14179

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    The opposition parties are apparently discussing ways of making the Benn Bill watertight.

    It's clear Johnson and Cummings are convinced they can find a loophole. They haven't forced a no confidence vote or got through a FTPA vote but they could be extreme enough to meet the requirement to ask for an extension but then refuse it or use an Order of Council to postpone the Act's implementation - as John Major points out, this could be done by Cabinet without even Royal Assent, but would provoke a massive ****storm.

    If they're serious about stopping this, the opposition parties have to do something that they don't seem capable of doing. Call a vote of no confidence with an agreed interim PM to lead a temporary government to secure the extension. Corbyn is the big stumbling block to this.

    And even this might not work. Johnson could lose a confidence vote but refuse to resign.

    This is bad now but it's going to get a whole lot worse as 31st Oct approaches. Failure for Johnson could spell the end of the Tory Party, and with stakes that high, he'll do anything.

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  30. #14180

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    Using an Order of Council to amend or impact on Primary legislation would be one hell of a stretch. They are used to amend bylaws and institutionl regulations, such as -
    https://privycouncil.independent.gov...ugust-2019.pdf

  31. #14181

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Using an Order of Council to amend or impact on Primary legislation would be one hell of a stretch. They are used to amend bylaws and institutionl regulations, such as -
    https://privycouncil.independent.gov...ugust-2019.pdf
    I agree. It would be excessive, anti-democratic and utterly inappropriate.

    But, for a would-be dictator fighting for the survival of his party and his own glory, who's said "do or die" and "rather be dead in a ditch than ask for an extension", backed into a corner with no other options? Nothing would surprise me.

    He's a pathological liar. He's lied to the people, parliament and even the queen. He never considers anything he does to be wrong, never apologises, never backs down, his reaction to being caught out is (to use the revolting Americanism) to double down and attack. He's a bully who can't conceive of not getting his own way. He's utterly disdainful of anyone challenging or contradicting him, without ever answering the challenges. His reaction to a defeat is to deny it's a defeat, ridicule those responsible for his defeat, ignore it and plough on.

    He is a very dangerous man, especially with Cummings behind him.

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  32. #14182

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    It needs to be pointed out more that Brexit would have been done and over with last March, if people like Boris Johnson hadn't blocked it for their own political point scoring. The deal would have passed through, it would have been right on schedule. The deal isn't great, but "leave means leave and the government should respect the voice of the people". But for some reason, leave didn't mean leave and it was okay to block Brexit going ahead when it was Boris doing it and playing politics.

    People need to be reminded why Brexit has been delayed so much and who was behind it.

  33. #14183

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    ....... The deal would have passed through, it would have been right on schedule. The deal isn't great, but "leave means leave and the government should respect the voice of the people".
    What is often conveniently overlooked is that the Withdrawal Agreement, ( the 'deal' ), is only a halfway house whilst the final trade agreement and other relationships with the EU are negotiated. Whether you think it is a good or bad deal, is is a path of transition, that prevents a dead fall off the cliff of no-deal. Unravelling 40 years of increasingly tightly bound integration was never going to be a simple overnight process.

    And I have found something on which I agree with Dominic Cummings - Article 50 should have been delayed.
    Last edited by badgerx16; 27-09-2019 at 09:52 AM.

  34. #14184

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    What is often conveniently overlooked is that the Withdrawal Agreement, ( the 'deal' ), is only a halfway house whilst the final trade agreement and other relationships with the EU are negotiated. Whether you think it is a good or bad deal, is is a path of transition, that prevents a dead fall off the cliff of no-deal. Unravelling 40 years of increasingly tightly bound integration was never going to be a simple overnight process.

    And I have found something on which I agree with Dominic Cummings - Article 50 should have been delayed.
    I agree with you, and gulp, Cummins, in this. Most Brexiteers and Remainers would probably agree that Article 50 being declared that early by May royally screwed whoever came next, although Boris didn’t need any help in that, the nutcase with his do or die crap about Oct 31. It was incredibly stupid but May generally wasn’t very bright. It’s what she thought the foaming at the mouth brigade in her party wanted, on top of the disgusting Windrush policies in the Home Office she was responsible for. Really, her and Boris have a lot in common in their lack of independent critical thought

  35. #14185

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint1977 View Post
    I agree with you, and gulp, Cummins, in this. Most Brexiteers and Remainers would probably agree that Article 50 being declared that early by May royally screwed whoever came next, although Boris didn’t need any help in that, the nutcase with his do or die crap about Oct 31. It was incredibly stupid but May generally wasn’t very bright. It’s what she thought the foaming at the mouth brigade in her party wanted, on top of the disgusting Windrush policies in the Home Office she was responsible for. Really, her and Boris have a lot in common in their lack of independent critical thought
    Not sure I agree.

    The Brexiters, led by the press, were chomping at the bit and pressuring May to trigger article 50. Its hard to see how she could have resisted that pressure for very long to hold what would have effectively been a moratorium on Brexit.

    Cummings characterisation of delaying article 50 is also highly misleading and naive: the EU explicitly refused talks until article 50 had been triggered, so the only benefit from waiting would have come from working with the rest of the House to find out what was and wasn’t politically feasible. But the Conservative government and Cummings have never shown any appetite to compromise or build consensus. Quite the opposite.

    Let’s also not forget that leading lights of Vote Leave believed that the UK held all the cards in negotiations. I suspect there’s a fair bit of revisionism going to cover up a basic underestimation of the complexity that Brexit involved. Much easier and less incriminating to pin the blame on poor execution than the folly of the project itself.

    The real error was not that May triggered article 50 too early but that she failed to reach out to the rest of the House after pīssīng away her majority in the 2017 GE. Indeed had she not called a GE early, her withdrawal agreement would have likely passed with conservative backbench support, making the timing of triggering article 50 of little relevance or importance in the grand scheme.
    Last edited by shurlock; 27-09-2019 at 10:43 PM.

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    Article 50 ws triggered nearly a year after the referendum so saying that was early is revisionist - as Shurlock says the demands to press that button from the Brexiteers was pretty high, and I am not sure it could have been held off much longer.

    I remember one prominent and life long Brexiteer demanding it be triggered in his first utterances on the morning after the referendum.

    The folly was that the year before triggering A50 (and indeed before the referendum) there was no serious planning, expectation management or building of consensus much as there hasn't been subsequently.

    Just the utter delusion that if we keep holding on and holding on the EU will make good on the fairytale the Leave campaign told to the electorate. Collectively we have approached this without a clue and that why we have had our arses handed to us.

    Even now we have idiots like Cleverley still trotting out the "The EU always capitulate at the last minute" even though we have already gone past the last minute (twice) and it was us that blinked (twice).

    The only card we have now got once it goes to sh it is "we are being bullied by those people who we previously told you need us more than we need them".

    Once no-deal happens every single one of the red-blooded Brexiteers will be screaming about the EU bullying us and punishing us before the pumpkin bunting comes down, conveniently forgetting the last 18 months where they repeatedly told us that no deal was exactly what they wanted and exactly what 17m people voted for.

  37. #14187

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    Let's remember, for advanced thinkers it wasn't just an In or Out vote - it was, if I vote Out, forever, do I trust David Cameron's austerity government to get a good deal for all of us?
    Brexiteers put their trust in the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox and Grayling.
    That trust was misplaced as we were promised how quickly these unicorn trade deals would be in place, before David Davis headed straight off like a rude tourist, banging tables, demanding this and that, arrogantly telling everyone how easy this would be and how we'd tell the EU who was boss!
    We were also going to shout in the faces of China, India and the US to make demands - because everyone needs us more than we need them.
    To think more realistically based on facts is to talk us down, to be a snowflake and a traitor....remember, we'd heard enough from experts.
    To plan ahead we set up a ferry company that didn't have any ships, and Raab discovered that Dover and Calais are ports, and that Ireland has some historical divides, while boasting that the UK leads the world in every single field of human endeavour.
    I don't camp outside royal weddings wearing a Union Jack suit, but I'm as patriotic as the next guy, and the clever way to get the best deal would have been to be polite and ruthless, not arrogant and fanciful.
    Boris blatantly lied to those voters, he's still doing it now.
    He's clearly not negotiating, he thinks he has a loophole to force us into the chaos that his billionaire backers need, I'm pretty sure he hasn't as his advisors are idiots.
    So we now have to follow a puppet of hedge funds and extremists, who will fail us.
    When he fails to deliver his clear promise, his masterplan will be to blame foreigners for not giving in to his unworkable fantasist demands, and to incite further death threats against MPs and judges.

  38. #14188

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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyboy View Post
    Let's remember, for advanced thinkers it wasn't just an In or Out vote - it was, if I vote Out, forever, do I trust David Cameron's austerity government to get a good deal for all of us?
    Brexiteers put their trust in the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox and Grayling.
    That trust was misplaced as we were promised how quickly these unicorn trade deals would be in place, before David Davis headed straight off like a rude tourist, banging tables, demanding this and that, arrogantly telling everyone how easy this would be and how we'd tell the EU who was boss!
    We were also going to shout in the faces of China, India and the US to make demands - because everyone needs us more than we need them.
    To think more realistically based on facts is to talk us down, to be a snowflake and a traitor....remember, we'd heard enough from experts.
    To plan ahead we set up a ferry company that didn't have any ships, and Raab discovered that Dover and Calais are ports, and that Ireland has some historical divides, while boasting that the UK leads the world in every single field of human endeavour.
    I don't camp outside royal weddings wearing a Union Jack suit, but I'm as patriotic as the next guy, and the clever way to get the best deal would have been to be polite and ruthless, not arrogant and fanciful.
    Boris blatantly lied to those voters, he's still doing it now.
    He's clearly not negotiating, he thinks he has a loophole to force us into the chaos that his billionaire backers need, I'm pretty sure he hasn't as his advisors are idiots.
    So we now have to follow a puppet of hedge funds and extremists, who will fail us.
    When he fails to deliver his clear promise, his masterplan will be to blame foreigners for not giving in to his unworkable fantasist demands, and to incite further death threats against MPs and judges.
    This post ranks right up there with other classics of yours on the Pompey Takeover thread. A succinct and accurate summary presented in the best tradition of British satirical put-down.

  39. #14189

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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyboy View Post
    Let's remember, for advanced thinkers it wasn't just an In or Out vote - it was, if I vote Out, forever, do I trust David Cameron's austerity government to get a good deal for all of us?
    Brexiteers put their trust in the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox and Grayling.
    That trust was misplaced as we were promised how quickly these unicorn trade deals would be in place, before David Davis headed straight off like a rude tourist, banging tables, demanding this and that, arrogantly telling everyone how easy this would be and how we'd tell the EU who was boss!
    We were also going to shout in the faces of China, India and the US to make demands - because everyone needs us more than we need them.
    To think more realistically based on facts is to talk us down, to be a snowflake and a traitor....remember, we'd heard enough from experts.
    To plan ahead we set up a ferry company that didn't have any ships, and Raab discovered that Dover and Calais are ports, and that Ireland has some historical divides, while boasting that the UK leads the world in every single field of human endeavour.
    I don't camp outside royal weddings wearing a Union Jack suit, but I'm as patriotic as the next guy, and the clever way to get the best deal would have been to be polite and ruthless, not arrogant and fanciful.
    Boris blatantly lied to those voters, he's still doing it now.
    He's clearly not negotiating, he thinks he has a loophole to force us into the chaos that his billionaire backers need, I'm pretty sure he hasn't as his advisors are idiots.
    So we now have to follow a puppet of hedge funds and extremists, who will fail us.
    When he fails to deliver his clear promise, his masterplan will be to blame foreigners for not giving in to his unworkable fantasist demands, and to incite further death threats against MPs and judges.
    Great post.

  40. #14190

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    I'm still not sure what the EU are going to, and are expected to capitulate on.

    The backstop has to happen, or we'll have a hard border. If BoJo and his team of morons come up with a solution, then that'd be great, but it's still not the EU capitulating.

    As said previously, I think there is a solution to be had where customs forms in NI and Republic are done away from the border, but it will take time to develop the relevant technology and to implement and train successfully. It just also makes life a lot more administrative on Ireland, but that's to be expected if they want to keep away from a hard border.

    Either way, we'd still need a backstop until this can be fully implemented.

  41. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    I'm still not sure what the EU are going to, and are expected to capitulate on.

    The backstop has to happen, or we'll have a hard border. If BoJo and his team of morons come up with a solution, then that'd be great, but it's still not the EU capitulating.

    As said previously, I think there is a solution to be had where customs forms in NI and Republic are done away from the border, but it will take time to develop the relevant technology and to implement and train successfully. It just also makes life a lot more administrative on Ireland, but that's to be expected if they want to keep away from a hard border.

    Either way, we'd still need a backstop until this can be fully implemented.
    The EU are going to capitulate by giving all the benefits of the shared market and customs arrangements and tariff free and frictionless trade and all the shared resources we like such as security and medicine regulations but in the new arrangement we don't have to pay in any money for any of it any more or go to any meetings about any of it any more and also we can make lots of exciting trade deals all over the world with whatever arrangements we like with markets that the insular narrow minded EU would never even speak to like Japan and South America. These arrangements don't mean any border on Ireland at all because we want to control our borders, all if them, without question but obviously not that one.

    No downside just considerable upside. We hold all the cards. Once the German Car makers get wind of it we will get all of the above no problem. We just need to stand there and threaten to blow our own faces off and they will come running because they need us more than we need them. Just wait until the eleventh hour and THEY WILL CAPITULATE
    Last edited by CB Fry; 28-09-2019 at 11:17 AM.

  42. #14192

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    The EU are going to capitulate by giving all the benefits of the shared market and customs arrangements and tariff free and frictionless trade and all the shared resources we like such as security and medicine regulations but in the new arrangement we don't have to pay in any money for any of it any more or go to any meetings about any of it any more and also we can make lots of exciting trade deals all over the world with whatever arrangements we like with markets that the insular narrow minded EU would never even speak to like Japan and South America. These arrangements don't mean any border on Ireland at all because we want to control our borders, all if them, without question but obviously not that one.

    No downside just considerable upside. We hold all the cards. Once the German Car makers get wind of it we will get all of the above no problem. We just need to stand there and threaten to blow our own faces off and they will come running because they need us more than we need them. Just wait until the eleventh hour and THEY WILL CAPITULATE
    So, the WA, just without paying? Yeah, alright.

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    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...117577729?s=19

    Absolutely effing pathetic. Please help us please help us if no deal happens please please please

  44. Default

    I'd call that a fu cking surrender letter all day long.

  45. #14195

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...117577729?s=19

    Absolutely effing pathetic. Please help us please help us if no deal happens please please please
    EU saying they are ready for no-deal, pity we aren't.

  46. #14196

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    Quote Originally Posted by rallyboy View Post
    The PR plan is so transparent.
    Cummings has workshopped expressions and told Boris and his loyal puppet army to chuck in the words surrender, traitor, chickens running away from the voters etc at every opportunity, to build a fake message.
    It's strong and stable all over again - and the dim are lapping it up.
    Meanwhile people are getting death threats, and chaos reigns.
    The type of chaos that hedge funds love....
    You are falling for the thing that you are telling others they are falling for. This hedge fund stuff is and has always been going on and some are betting on one side and others the other. It is not one way. It is just another bit of the scare tactics and misinformation used by both sides.
    For all of our good we need a quick resolution and No deal, whilst the trouble that will cause is not ideal, it will focus minds very quickly on all sides. The country is bleeding to death and while many on here may not see it in their lives YET the economy is starting to really stall. Iam hearing form many different trades how slow things are getting and soon the job losses and businesses closures will start to snowball. Therefore we haven't time to fanny around waiting for MP's who really are not in the real world to decide our fate. Not making a decision either way is a disaster and personally if we revoke or go for no deal I would be fine as then we can get on with it. In limbo like we are at present is sending us into a downward spiral.
    If Boris said we would hold the no deal decision until after an election, which would give the people the chance to vote in an election we would see then what way to go forward.
    Personally at present I think the Tories would get a decent majority as the man in the street it seems to me wants this nightmare to end so we can try and move on.

  47. #14197

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    EU saying they are ready for no-deal, pity we aren't.
    its all brinkmanship, sadly they know how to negotiate and its like taking candy from a kid dealing with us.

  48. #14198

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...117577729?s=19

    Absolutely effing pathetic. Please help us please help us if no deal happens please please please
    They now have to ask for an extension.

    The government has prepared it's own noose.

  49. #14199

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...117577729?s=19

    Absolutely effing pathetic. Please help us please help us if no deal happens please please please
    I couldn't make out the signature on the Government's letter. Was it Grand old Duke of York?

  50. #14200

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    I'd call that a fu cking surrender letter all day long.
    Don’t worry the swivels will be telling us that if they had had longer than July to plan, the Europeans would have been eating out of our hands by now. Another May stitch-up.

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