Martin Caceres Signs - Official

Has Stephens been bad? I honestly can't remember him having too many issues, he's adapted surprisingly well in my eyes. I think Yoshida is still more prone to a lapse than Stephens.

 

Still, we shouldn't have been in this situation, but we might as well get the benefit of blooding a youngster out of a bad situation.

In all seriousness are we going to benefit out of this?

He's been okay, probably hasn't helped playing next to Yoshida tbh, but in reality, JS will drop back to 4th choice next year and won't get a look in (other than the odd FA/LC game). 4th choice won't benefit Jack, and if he does drop down the pecking order, he should go out on loan to continue playing. However this does beg the question, if he doesn't make it next season, will he ever? I'd suggest not.

I can't see a bundle of PL clubs coming in for him either, which to me would suggest he'd drop down to the championship.

I'm all for playing youngsters, however you should only do so if they're good enough (something I'm not 100% sure Reed understands).

As for Caceres, who knows how he'll perform, but we've shipped a fair few goals as of late, so I'd be tempted to give him a go.

Injured. He hasn't lost his ability. There's no doubt in my mind that he's better than Yoshida and Stephens. I believe we should always play our best players. Stephens would probably learn a thing or two from Caceres.

He isn't ours.

In all seriousness are we going to benefit out of this?

 

He's been okay, probably hasn't helped playing next to Yoshida tbh, but in reality, JS will drop back to 4th choice next year and won't get a look in (other than the odd FA/LC game). 4th choice won't benefit Jack, and if he does drop down the pecking order, he should go out on loan to continue playing. However this does beg the question, if he doesn't make it next season, will he ever? I'd suggest not.

 

I can't see a bundle of PL clubs coming in for him either, which to me would suggest he'd drop down to the championship.

 

I'm all for playing youngsters, however you should only do so if they're good enough (something I'm not 100% sure Reed understands).

 

As for Caceres, who knows how he'll perform, but we've shipped a fair few goals as of late, so I'd be tempted to give him a go.

Can you name many centrebacks who DO make it at the top level at 22? I'm not talking the world class ones, so you can discount the likes of Ferdinand or Terry. He's being written off way too early. Yes he might go back to fourth choice next season - but he's showed enough that a Prem team will probably take him on loan, and that gives him a season or two at the top level to progress even further.

Honestly, from what I've seen of him in recent weeks (and if he carries it on) I would be willing to see what he's got as a starter next season alongside Van Dijk or a new signing if he goes.

In all seriousness are we going to benefit out of this?

 

He's been okay, probably hasn't helped playing next to Yoshida tbh, but in reality, JS will drop back to 4th choice next year and won't get a look in (other than the odd FA/LC game). 4th choice won't benefit Jack, and if he does drop down the pecking order, he should go out on loan to continue playing. However this does beg the question, if he doesn't make it next season, will he ever? I'd suggest not.

 

I can't see a bundle of PL clubs coming in for him either, which to me would suggest he'd drop down to the championship.

 

I'm all for playing youngsters, however you should only do so if they're good enough (something I'm not 100% sure Reed understands).

 

As for Caceres, who knows how he'll perform, but we've shipped a fair few goals as of late, so I'd be tempted to give him a go.

Suppose Virgil and Mystery Mush are our first choice CBS next season and one of them gets injured in training the week before we go to OT or The Emirates. Would you want JS to be making basically his league debut in a game like that? With half a season of first team football, he will be far better prepared mentally should such a scenario arise.

How do you know??

Suppose Virgil and Mystery Mush are our first choice CBS next season and one of them gets injured in training the week before we go to OT or The Emirates. Would you want JS to be making basically his league debut in a game like that? With half a season of first team football, he will be far better prepared mentally should such a scenario arise.

Ironic that the situation you describe did happen with JS making his full debut in a cup semi final away at Anfield.

Can you name many centrebacks who DO make it at the top level at 22? I'm not talking the world class ones, so you can discount the likes of Ferdinand or Terry. He's being written off way too early. Yes he might go back to fourth choice next season - but he's showed enough that a Prem team will probably take him on loan, and that gives him a season or two at the top level to progress even further.

Honestly, from what I've seen of him in recent weeks (and if he carries it on) I would be willing to see what he's got as a starter next season alongside Van Dijk or a new signing if he goes.

Ake (22), Bruma (25), VVD (25), Stones (22), Keane (24), Koulibaly (25), Dier (23), Zouma (22), Phil Jones (25), Nastasić (24), Andreas Christensen (21) are all a similar age to Stephens (23). I'm sure those that watch a bit of european football could name many more

Suppose Virgil and Mystery Mush are our first choice CBS next season and one of them gets injured in training the week before we go to OT or The Emirates. Would you want JS to be making basically his league debut in a game like that? With half a season of first team football, he will be far better prepared mentally should such a scenario arise.

In such scenario, Yoshida would step in.

In such scenario, Yoshida would step in.

What if he was injured too?

You're completely missing the point, first team experience will benefit any player. Just look at how Calumn Chambers has vanished into obscurity since becoming an Arsenal reserve - on the verge of being relegated.

Ake (22), Bruma (25), VVD (25), Stones (22), Keane (24), Koulibaly (25), Dier (23), Zouma (22), Phil Jones (25), Nastasić (24), Andreas Christensen (21) are all a similar age to Stephens (23). I'm sure those that watch a bit of european football could name many more

I said not world class, so you can discount VVD

Some of those are a bit of a stretch (Ake, Keane, Zouma, Jones remain to convince and Dier is a DM) and besides, that's still a very small list. To put it into context all of those players would only be enough to fill the CB positions for 5 and a half clubs. Yes there will be more out there, but still.

My point was that to say we should cut and run if he isn't at VVD levels by next season is ludicrous.

What if he was injured too?

 

You're completely missing the point, first team experience will benefit any player. Just look at how Calumn Chambers has vanished into obscurity since becoming an Arsenal reserve - on the verge of being relegated.

That's exactly my point what do you think next season, where he'll be demoted to 4th place, will do to his confidence? Surely we should be preparing for next season and MC could possibly be our 1st choice CB.

I said not world class, so you can discount VVD

 

Some of those are a bit of a stretch (Ake, Keane, Zouma, Jones remain to convince and Dier is a DM) and besides, that's still a very small list. To put it into context all of those players would only be enough to fill the CB positions for 5 and a half clubs. Yes there will be more out there, but still.

My point was that to say we should cut and run if he isn't at VVD levels by next season is ludicrous.

When have I said we should cut and run?

That's exactly my point what do you think next season, where he'll be demoted to 4th place, will do to his confidence? Surely we should be preparing for next season and MC could possibly be our 1st choice CB.

Obviously he would rather be first choice playing every game but so does everyone. That being the case, our squad would just be 11 players.

He will be 4th choice next year but he will be a better player for having half a season under his belt. No, he wont be as good as he could be playing every game but it's a balancing act he will just have to accept.

Let me put it this way, if he was our 4th CB next season and had never started a Prem game, everyone would be furious that we hadn't adequately replaced Gardos. As it is, Jack is capable of doing that job. That's what we're getting out of this. A competent 4th choice next season, rather than a complete novice. He will get his moments when injuries and cup games crop up.

What if he was injured too?

 

You're completely missing the point, first team experience will benefit any player. Just look at how Calumn Chambers has vanished into obscurity since becoming an Arsenal reserve - on the verge of being relegated.

What if Jack Stephens was injured too? Surely that means we should be blooding the other young CBs whilst we've got nothing to play for just in case? That seems to be what you are saying.

What if Jack Stephens was injured too? Surely that means we should be blooding the other young CBs whilst we've got nothing to play for just in case? That seems to be what you are saying.

This really isn't complicated.

Fonte (and if necessary Virgil) will need replacing in the summer.

We will need two competent players as back up.

Yoshida is a competent player

Stevens NOW has proven to be a competent player.

Had he not made a single Prem start, he would not have been proven as a competent player.

Caceres will not be here come what May, in the most literal translation of the term.

What if Jack Stephens was injured too? Surely that means we should be blooding the other young CBs whilst we've got nothing to play for just in case? That seems to be what you are saying.

The thing is, we have something to play for... the difference between finishing 14th & 8th could mean and extra player, or a top players wages for the length of their contract.

This really isn't complicated.

 

Fonte (and if necessary Virgil) will need replacing in the summer.

We will need two competent players as back up.

Yoshida is a competent player

Stevens NOW has proven to be a competent player.

Had he not made a single Prem start, he would not have been proven as a competent player.

Caceres will not be here come what May, in the most literal translation of the term.

All of the above is true, its also irrelevant to the point I was making.

All of the above is true, its also irrelevant to the point I was making.

Because Yoshida and JS are the best centre halves we have available and are likely to be the ones called upon next season, in the event of an injury.

I wouldn't be advocating playing JS if we had 2 fit Virgils but when it's a choice between him and Caceres, who hasn't played for a year, is primarily a RB and wont be here next season, I'm saying play Jack.

Because Yoshida and JS are the best centre halves we have available and are likely to be the ones called upon next season, in the event of an injury.

 

I wouldn't be advocating playing JS if we had 2 fit Virgils but when it's a choice between him and Caceres, who hasn't played for a year, is primarily a RB and wont be here next season, I'm saying play Jack.

Fine but how do you know Stephens is better than Caceres? I've only seen Caceres play at half speed in an U23 game so wouldn't like to make a call on who is the "best available".

My point (in direct response to your point about the benefits of blooding JS) was that there really was no point in signing MC and paying him any kind of wage if we didn't think he was better than Stephens. If Stephens or Yoshida were injured we could make use of Alfie Jones who is next in line (and clearly a player the club have high hopes for) and we could then reap the benefit of Jones getting earlier PL experience in a season where we are safe and will finish mid table. From what I've seen of the U23s I don't see Jones as too far behind Stephens if I'm honest.

Fine but how do you know Stephens is better than Caceres? I've only seen Caceres play at half speed in an U23 game so wouldn't like to make a call on who is the "best available".

 

My point (in direct response to your point about the benefits of blooding JS) was that there really was no point in signing MC and paying him any kind of wage if we didn't think he was better than Stephens. If Stephens or Yoshida were injured we could make use of Alfie Jones who is next in line (and clearly a player the club have high hopes for) and we could then reap the benefit of Jones getting earlier PL experience in a season where we are safe and will finish mid table. From what I've seen of the U23s I don't see Jones as too far behind Stephens if I'm honest.

So tonight on another thread you are berating the club for our transfer business in the summer for being inadequate.

 

For me, Puel was let down by Reed and should be given the summer but then I think our transfer business last summer was inadequate.

So you don't think we left ourselves short (especially up front) following the summer window? You were genuinely content with the amount of business we did?

But on this thread you are advocating that what we should have done is sign no centre back cover whatsoever and just bung an academy kid on the bench to cover the already inexperienced Stephens? You'd have genuinely have been fine with that in February this year?

That doesn't strike you as being a more inadequate option than signing an experienced player who could come off the bench in the event of a suspension or injury?

What like JRod?

No. Jay Rodriguez has never been near the standard Caceres can be.

He isn't ours.

That doesn't negate my point about Stephens learning from him at all.

So tonight on another thread you are berating the club for our transfer business in the summer for being inadequate.

 

 

 

 

 

But on this thread you are advocating that what we should have done is sign no centre back cover whatsoever and just bung an academy kid on the bench to cover the already inexperienced Stephens? You'd have genuinely have been fine with that in February this year?

 

That doesn't strike you as being a more inadequate option than signing an experienced player who could come off the bench in the event of a suspension or injury?

All I'm saying is that if the justification for playing Stephens over an "experienced" player is to blood youngsters in a harmless environment (which seems to be what Lighthouse is saying here) then by extrapolation we could have used another youngster (Jones) in the event of another injury.

Our transfer business was inadequate. I wanted a CB signing but we didn't get one. The signing of MC was done at the last minute and was done IMO out of sheer panic. If we have no intention of using Caceres over our own youth players then we may as well not have bothered with him. I would, of course, have preferred us to have signed a good defender with pedigree who could have been first choice but we didn't.

Just because we panicked and brought in a player on a free doesn't make our transfer business adequate and all I'm saying is that given we apparently have no interest in using him we may as well have saved ourselves the trouble.

No. Jay Rodriguez has never been near the standard Caceres .

Since his injury he hasn't been anywhere near the standard of pre injury JRod. How do you know Caceres hasn't suffered the same drop off.

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Since his injury he hasn't been anywhere near the standard of pre injury JRod. How do you know Caceres hasn't suffered the same drop off.

 

 

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We don't because he hasn't played. Only way to find out is to give him a go.

All I'm saying is that if the justification for playing Stephens over an "experienced" player is to blood youngsters in a harmless environment (which seems to be what Lighthouse is saying here) then by extrapolation we could have used another youngster (Jones) in the event of another injury.

 

Our transfer business was inadequate. I wanted a CB signing but we didn't get one. The signing of MC was done at the last minute and was done IMO out of sheer panic. If we have no intention of using Caceres over our own youth players then we may as well not have bothered with him. I would, of course, have preferred us to have signed a good defender with pedigree who could have been first choice but we didn't.

 

Just because we panicked and brought in a player on a free doesn't make our transfer business adequate and all I'm saying is that given we apparently have no interest in using him we may as well have saved ourselves the trouble.

Except if we had done nothing and only had Alfie Jones on the bench, you'd be furious. Inadequate.

We've brought in experienced cover for emergencies. We didn't really want him because we tried and failed to sign the two CBs in January. We ballsed it up in Jan but Caceres was just a sticking plaster, best of a bad job.

If he never ever plays that's fine by me. Job done. He's the umbrella you buy to stop it raining.

Seems a bit odd that you'd rather we didn't bother with that when it's pretty clear you'd be fuming if we didn't. Imagine if Caceres had signed for, say, Hull and we were left with Alfie Jones. You'd be saying "well I'm glad we didn't bother with him" would you? No I don't think you would.

We don't because he hasn't played. Only way to find out is to give him a go.

Perhaps Puel has seen him in training, seen the data from the fitness people & decided not to "give him a go". If he's no intention of playing next season, I'd rather give someone who is "a go".

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Perhaps Puel has seen him in training, seen the data from the fitness people & decided not to "give him a go". If he's no intention of playing next season, I'd rather give someone who is "a go".

 

 

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Indeed. People dismiss training as if managers pick players from highlight reels or Top Trumps ratings regardless of what they observe 5 days a week. I'm sure if he was outstanding in training he'd had played more of a part and we'd be thinking of potentially long term. Would appear not.

Having said that is a bit disappointing not to see him in any games so we could at least have something to judge.

Perhaps Puel has seen him in training, seen the data from the fitness people & decided not to "give him a go". If he's no intention of playing next season, I'd rather give someone who is "a go".

 

 

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Fair enough. Just a bit surprising, given the rate at which we are conceding goals, that he's genuinely considered not good enough. It was only a few weeks ago that Puel was banging on about being surprised by his fitness/quality. Maybe that was BS but either way we'd have seen him for a week or so in training prior to the work permit getting sorted.

Except if we had done nothing and only had Alfie Jones on the bench, you'd be furious. Inadequate.

 

We've brought in experienced cover for emergencies. We didn't really want him because we tried and failed to sign the two CBs in January. We ballsed it up in Jan but Caceres was just a sticking plaster, best of a bad job.

 

If he never ever plays that's fine by me. Job done. He's the umbrella you buy to stop it raining.

 

Seems a bit odd that you'd rather we didn't bother with that when it's pretty clear you'd be fuming if we didn't. Imagine if Caceres had signed for, say, Hull and we were left with Alfie Jones. You'd be saying "well I'm glad we didn't bother with him" would you? No I don't think you would.

It's a pretty hefty price for a sticking plaster or precautionary umbrella (unless he really is on a pay to play deal). My view is that Stephens and Jones (again based only on the U23 games I have seen) are of a similar level (i.e. neither of them are ready but both are decent prospects for the future but aren't yet steady PL level players) and therefore, given that Caceres is considered by management to be below Stephens, there's not much point in having brought him in. Yes, I would still have thought it inadequate had we not brought anyone in but the mere fact of bringing someone in who isn't deemed better than what you have and who you aren't prepared to use doesn't improve things at all. If MC had been signed by Hull, was playing for them, helping them pick up points etc then that would prove he's a competent PL defender so yes people probably would have wanted us to sign him. The fact is that's a complete hypothetical as the club clearly don't think he's a competent PL defender, if they did we'd be using him.

It is a bit of a leap assuming that the club don't think he is competent isn't it? If he has been brought in as cover and we don't need that cover as neither of the other two centre halves haven't been injured, it hardly means the club think is incompetent.

It is a bit of a leap assuming that the club don't think he is competent isn't it? If he has been brought in as cover and we don't need that cover as neither of the other two centre halves haven't been injured, it hardly means the club think is incompetent.

We were told by Les Reed we would be replacing Jose Fonte, not bringing in cover for what was our fourth or fifth choice centre-half at the start of the season.

I'm not against Stephens getting games ahead of Caceres at all - it benefits the club far more to do that but the expectation was that Fonte would be replaced and that became urgent after VVD got injured and the club failed to do it. The club have got few things wrong in recent years but this was a pretty spectacular failure. We've conceded on average two goals a game since VVD got injured and Fonte was out of the team. That's really bad no matter how well Yoshida and Stephens have done.

Ake (22), Bruma (25), VVD (25), Stones (22), Keane (24), Koulibaly (25), Dier (23), Zouma (22), Phil Jones (25), Nastasić (24), Andreas Christensen (21) are all a similar age to Stephens (23). I'm sure those that watch a bit of european football could name many more

This really isn't complicated.

 

Fonte (and if necessary Virgil) will need replacing in the summer.

We will need two competent players as back up.

Yoshida is a competent player

Stevens NOW has proven to be a competent player.

Had he not made a single Prem start, he would not have been proven as a competent player.

Caceres will not be here come what May, in the most literal translation of the term.

You make it sound so easy but our reluctance to spend money combined with Reed's inability to close a deal quickly more or less guarantees that at best only one or two new players will arrive in the summer so surely the priority is in the midfield? Davis is ageing and Ward-Prowse is not improving suggesting that he will never be the answer to any question. If VVD recovers fitness and stays then our board will see no need of buying another CB.

Reluctance to spend money? That's patently nonsense.

You make it sound so easy but our reluctance to spend money combined with Reed's inability to close a deal quickly more or less guarantees that at best only one or two new players will arrive in the summer so surely the priority is in the midfield? Davis is ageing and Ward-Prowse is not improving suggesting that he will never be the answer to any question. If VVD recovers fitness and stays then our board will see no need of buying another CB.

Again, all assumptions based on nothing.

We aren't reluctant to spend money. Forster, Virgil, Hojbjerg, Bertrand, Tadic, Long and Redmond were all in £10m territory. Gabbi and Boufal around £15m. We could easily put out a team worth over £100m.

There is nothing to suggest Les can't complete a deal. In summer we filled all the positions which needed filling; 5 player in total.

The board quite clearly do see the need to sign another defender as we obviously tried in January, then brought in MC as an emergency top gap.

Again, all assumptions based on nothing.

 

We aren't reluctant to spend money. Forster, Virgil, Hojbjerg, Bertrand, Tadic, Long and Redmond were all in £10m territory. Gabbi and Boufal around £15m. We could easily put out a team worth over £100m.

 

There is nothing to suggest Les can't complete a deal. In summer we filled all the positions which needed filling; 5 player in total.

 

The board quite clearly do see the need to sign another defender as we obviously tried in January, then brought in MC as an emergency top gap.

I think it's more that they chanced their arm and it back fired. I also think that there is an air of accident on purpose about it all so it might be a case of plan C working. Still a fk up and will hopefully be learnt from.

It's a pretty hefty price for a sticking plaster or precautionary umbrella (unless he really is on a pay to play deal). My view is that Stephens and Jones (again based only on the U23 games I have seen) are of a similar level (i.e. neither of them are ready but both are decent prospects for the future but aren't yet steady PL level players) and therefore, given that Caceres is considered by management to be below Stephens, there's not much point in having brought him in. Yes, I would still have thought it inadequate had we not brought anyone in but the mere fact of bringing someone in who isn't deemed better than what you have and who you aren't prepared to use doesn't improve things at all. If MC had been signed by Hull, was playing for them, helping them pick up points etc then that would prove he's a competent PL defender so yes people probably would have wanted us to sign him. The fact is that's a complete hypothetical as the club clearly don't think he's a competent PL defender, if they did we'd be using him.

Bizarre you are looking at this is such a ridiculous black-or-white way.

We signed someone we think is perfectly capable to cover our (current) two centre backs.

If the club didn't think he was competent he wouldn't be on the effing bench.

You make it sound so easy but our reluctance to spend money combined with Reed's inability to close a deal quickly more or less guarantees that at best only one or two new players will arrive in the summer so surely the priority is in the midfield? Davis is ageing and Ward-Prowse is not improving suggesting that he will never be the answer to any question. If VVD recovers fitness and stays then our board will see no need of buying another CB.

There's drivel and there's drivel.

I reckon he'll play on Saturday. Not ITK, just a hunch.

Bizarre you are looking at this is such a ridiculous black-or-white way.

 

We signed someone we think is perfectly capable to cover our (current) two centre backs.

 

If the club didn't think he was competent he wouldn't be on the effing bench.

He's also reported to be on a very high wage. If that's not the case then I'd agree with you but if we are overpaying someone who is only good enough to cover our third or fourth choice CBs then its an error on the part of the club IMO.

100k a week to chill on the bench.

So we sell Fonte for £6m(?) would probably see 70% of that so call it 4.2m. We then give Caceres £2m in wages.

So 2.2m for Fonte.

When each league place is worth 2m it could end up costing alot to sell Fonte

He's also reported to be on a very high wage. If that's not the case then I'd agree with you but if we are overpaying someone who is only good enough to cover our third or fourth choice CBs then its an error on the part of the club IMO.

I thought it was reported when he signed that he was on a very low wage (4k pw) but a high pay as you play? It would explain his lack of appearances.

I thought it was reported when he signed that he was on a very low wage (4k pw) but a high pay as you play? It would explain his lack of appearances.

Hadn't seen that, if that's right then fair enough.

Where do you cranks get 100k per week from ?

100k a week to chill on the bench.

 

So we sell Fonte for £6m(?) would probably see 70% of that so call it 4.2m. We then give Caceres £2m in wages.

 

So 2.2m for Fonte.

 

When each league place is worth 2m it could end up costing alot to sell Fonte

Incredible. Not one of those facts is correct.

Where do you cranks get 100k per week from ?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/2806032/southampton-transfer-news-martin-caceres/

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/southampton-sign-free-agent-martin-9776098

For example. Was relatively widely reported at the time. Could, of course, be BS.

100k a week to chill on the bench.

 

So we sell Fonte for £6m(?) would probably see 70% of that so call it 4.2m. We then give Caceres £2m in wages.

 

So 2.2m for Fonte.

 

When each league place is worth 2m it could end up costing alot to sell Fonte

No wonder Bertrand had Puel by the throat on the training ground.

Incredible. Not one of those facts is correct.

Pleaee tell us the full truth mate.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/2806032/southampton-transfer-news-martin-caceres/

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/southampton-sign-free-agent-martin-9776098

 

For example. Was relatively widely reported at the time. Could, of course, be BS.

A 5 month contract at £850k works out as less than £50kpw.

Either article could indeed be BS.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/2806032/southampton-transfer-news-martin-caceres/

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/southampton-sign-free-agent-martin-9776098

 

For example. Was relatively widely reported at the time. Could, of course, be BS.

850k over what 14 weeks? is more like 60 than 100 and you only have to look at who the mirror piece is written by !

I think I preferred it when Glasgow's WUM routine was based around how our highest paid player was on £55k a week and we were being blown out of the water in the transfer market by level two clubs like Stoke. This new angle that we are profligate cash-splurging nutcases is less hilarious.

Well done on trying to keep the act fresh, though.