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Thread: How certain clubs and players are refereed.

  1. #1

    Default How certain clubs and players are refereed.

    I watched the Man.City v Leicester City match last night on the TV. It was won by a pretty special goal scored by Vincent Kompany.

    However, in the first half, David Silva,a wonderful player and a bloke not known as being particuarly aggressive, was booked....rightfully so in my opinion, by the referee Mike Dean, for a pretty poor tackle.

    In the second half, Silva made two more pretty poor challenges and although the fouls were called by Dean, Silva was not shown a second yellow card which would have meant an automatic red and Man City down to 10 men.

    My argument here is that there is clearly a different mind set in the way certain clubs ....i.e, the top 6....and certain players are treated by Premiership referees.

    We have a combative midfield player and captain in Pierre Hojberg. Throughout the season he makes some very determined tackles and in my opinion on some of them, he is rightfully shown a yellow card for the more reckless ones. He also now has a reputation which is important to my mind on how referees react.

    My argument is that if Hojberg had made that first tackle playing for Saints and with Dean officiating , he would have rightfully been shown a yellow card. However, in my opinion, if he had then gone on to make either of the other 2 fouls that Silva made in last nights match, Dean would have definitely shown him a second yellow and therefore an automatic read and a sending off.

    I'm not saying that Dean or any other Premiership referee is corrupt. Of course they are not. I think the standard of officiating in the Premiership is decent enough and they all try to do their job honestly.

    My argument is that there is a mind set amongst referees regarding the top clubs and players and the top coaches like Guardiola and Klopp. If Dean had issued a second yellow to Silva, he would have been aware of the the anger and criticism that would have come down on him from the clubs and the media....especially Sky !.....and I think it altered the way he made his decision.

    In my opinion....and it is just my opinion.... Dean would have known that if those incidents involving Silva had occurred in a different match, with a different player and a different club....i.e. A club like Saints or any other in the Premiership other than the big six, he wouldn't have been subjected to the anything like the intimidation and the opprobium and he would have made a different decision.

    All in my opinion of course. I don't post much although I have been a Saints fan for nigh on 60 years so flame away !

  2. #2

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    I think when clattenburg said he ref'd the occasion. That was all we needed to know

  3. #3

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    I wonder how much referees are swayed by tomorrow's headlines?? I don't blame them, as they would be under the microscope and you get all sort of morons threatening them for making this or that decision. Can you imagine what sort of reaction a ref would face if he had sent Silva off, they lose and Liverpool win the league? If it is blatant, then that's fine. But if it is very subjective (aren't all decisions?), then maybe not booking someone is the easier route.

  4. #4

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    Remember this from a few years ago?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...-to-lie-about/

    all got brushed under the carpet. How many others are influenced by their bosses, other managers or the premier league?

    A few years back the then chairman of the Premier league openly said the league needs a successful Man United team, presumably for their global appeal to keep worldwide viewing figures up.

    Lets not pretend the PL isn't dodgy. There may not be brown bags changing hands but certainly there is enough influence out there to make sure the smaller clubs never seriously threaten the big ones.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkish View Post
    Remember this from a few years ago?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...-to-lie-about/

    all got brushed under the carpet. How many others are influenced by their bosses, other managers or the premier league?

    A few years back the then chairman of the Premier league openly said the league needs a successful Man United team, presumably for their global appeal to keep worldwide viewing figures up.

    Lets not pretend the PL isn't dodgy. There may not be brown bags changing hands but certainly there is enough influence out there to make sure the smaller clubs never seriously threaten the big ones.
    I don't disagree. At this stage of the season it is getting farcical. Look at the free kick from which Liverpool scored last Saturday.

    I do think that VAR will make a difference. It probably would not have affected the cases that you highlight above and the OP mentions but it will go some of the way to redressing the balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis1947 View Post

    I'm not saying that Dean or any other Premiership referee is corrupt. Of course they are not.
    I think the standard of officiating in the Premiership is decent enough and they all try to do their job honestly.
    Really??

    The standard in the Premiership is absolutely shocking. Watch the Saints vs Man U, Fulham etc & tell me they are decent. Arsenal vs Brighton on Sunday - ref stood 5 yds in front of action & still somehow sees a Arsenal pen!!

    Would never surprise me if/when a ref is exposed for taking a brown envelope.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamesaint View Post
    I don't disagree. At this stage of the season it is getting farcical. Look at the free kick from which Liverpool scored last Saturday.
    Tamesaint. You make a good point there. Did anyone see an actual foul committed there ? I certainly didn't. I think a reasonable tackle was made there but the Liverpool player went down, appealed to the linesman, Klopp went berserk on the touchline....and the referee was pressured in giving the foul.

  8. #8

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    Yes really. You have an opinion on the standard and integrity of referees in the Premiership and I have mine ok.

    These guys are human beings, they make mistakes, they do get swayed by certain players, crowds, particular Coaches and Managers on the touchline.

    However to make a judgement that some referees are corrupt is incorrect in my opinion.

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    Reading too much into things.

    Silva’s second and third fouls were pretty innocuous and refs typically give players several chances if they’re on a yellow. Happens up and down the leagues to all clubs.

    Dean has had a reputation for being trigger-happy with booking players, though again he let both us and Watford get away with loads in our recent game and that’s not even counting the Kabasele (?) challenge at the end which was a proper bottle job.
    Last edited by shurlock; 07-05-2019 at 08:34 AM.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis1947 View Post
    I watched the Man.City v Leicester City match last night on the TV. It was won by a pretty special goal scored by Vincent Kompany.

    However, in the first half, David Silva,a wonderful player and a bloke not known as being particuarly aggressive, was booked....rightfully so in my opinion, by the referee Mike Dean, for a pretty poor tackle.

    In the second half, Silva made two more pretty poor challenges and although the fouls were called by Dean, Silva was not shown a second yellow card which would have meant an automatic red and Man City down to 10 men.

    My argument here is that there is clearly a different mind set in the way certain clubs ....i.e, the top 6....and certain players are treated by Premiership referees.

    We have a combative midfield player and captain in Pierre Hojberg. Throughout the season he makes some very determined tackles and in my opinion on some of them, he is rightfully shown a yellow card for the more reckless ones. He also now has a reputation which is important to my mind on how referees react.

    My argument is that if Hojberg had made that first tackle playing for Saints and with Dean officiating , he would have rightfully been shown a yellow card. However, in my opinion, if he had then gone on to make either of the other 2 fouls that Silva made in last nights match, Dean would have definitely shown him a second yellow and therefore an automatic read and a sending off.

    I'm not saying that Dean or any other Premiership referee is corrupt. Of course they are not. I think the standard of officiating in the Premiership is decent enough and they all try to do their job honestly.

    My argument is that there is a mind set amongst referees regarding the top clubs and players and the top coaches like Guardiola and Klopp. If Dean had issued a second yellow to Silva, he would have been aware of the the anger and criticism that would have come down on him from the clubs and the media....especially Sky !.....and I think it altered the way he made his decision.

    In my opinion....and it is just my opinion.... Dean would have known that if those incidents involving Silva had occurred in a different match, with a different player and a different club....i.e. A club like Saints or any other in the Premiership other than the big six, he wouldn't have been subjected to the anything like the intimidation and the opprobium and he would have made a different decision.

    All in my opinion of course. I don't post much although I have been a Saints fan for nigh on 60 years so flame away !
    Very decent post IMHO. While there are some refs who are simply sh1t, the majority are trying to do a good and fair job. I think it's more about human beings crumbling under the pressure which is clearly much more significant when dealing with the bigger clubs. I don't think Dean would have been afraid to show a red card for something blatant, but only when blatant and he knows he won't be slaughtered by managers or the press. He, like most of his colleagues will happily avoid a difficult decision in a really big game for a quiet life when it's possible.

    I think it's human nature to be honest. I do think VAR will help improve the balance of errors in favour of the big clubs, but it will still exist. Doubt the Liverpool free kick would have been referred to VAR, or indeed silvas challenges.

  11. #11

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    I havent read all of this thread(maybe i should :-) ) but i do want to respond to a couple of things ive seen in the OP and other parts.

    1 - i dont believe it is obvious that the officials are not corrupt, by the very nature of the fact they spend not time thing when giving things for top 6 teams and never against them suggests the their decision is premeditated to allow things and not allow things in favour of the top 6 teams.

    2 - The referees in the PL are not good, in fact the number that can be counted as component is very few backed up by the lack of english referees being used in top class international matches and the CL and Europa League.

    3 - Referees are not accountable, they are the very definition of not accountable, never do you see a referee brought out in any sense to justify their performance, they are basically self regulated and you only ever see evidence that somebody has been punished in the highest of profile cases.

    Take a look at the way referees are treated in other sports and the reasons they are treated this way, in many cases the have mic's attached and explain the decision making throughout the game and the players in turn respect them for it and the way they treat the players.

    Football needs to take a long hard look at itself and stop thinking it is the pinnacle of everything in sport, the whole game is possibly correct beyond repair (yes that does make me a mug for still loving the game)

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis1947 View Post
    Yes really. You have an opinion on the standard and integrity of referees in the Premiership and I have mine ok.

    These guys are human beings, they make mistakes, they do get swayed by certain players, crowds, particular Coaches and Managers on the touchline.

    However to make a judgement that some referees are corrupt is incorrect in my opinion.
    You can have a corrupt mindset without receiving money or gifts. If you court popularity with the media, certain clubs, managers or fans by your decision making you are ‘corrupt’

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Reading too much into things.

    Silva’s second and third fouls were pretty innocuous and refs typically give players several chances if they’re on a yellow. Happens up and down the leagues to all clubs.

    Dean has had a reputation for being trigger-happy with booking players, though again he let both us and Watford get away with loads in our recent game and that’s not even counting the Kabasele (?) challenge at the end which was a proper bottle job.
    I actually thought the game was better for it. Naturally when your team are the victims of a tough tackle you want to see a free kick, but I found the game more enjoyable in general when anything close to 50-50 was allowed to play on. Obviously the Kabasele challenge at the end was a different matter.

  14. #14

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    Neither his 2nd or third foul was yellow card worthy, they were just fouls and 3 fouls in a game is not really persistent fouling.

    If people starting picking up two yellows and reds for that, we'd have like 8 a side games to be honest.

    A lot worse decisions going on than that last night, which is why VAR will be good, in the end there will be more correct decisions.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francis1947 View Post
    Tamesaint. You make a good point there. Did anyone see an actual foul committed there ? I certainly didn't. I think a reasonable tackle was made there but the Liverpool player went down, appealed to the linesman, Klopp went berserk on the touchline....and the referee was pressured in giving the foul.
    It was the assistant that gave the foul, not the referee. A referee will very, very rarely overrule his assistant. It wasnít even a tackle. There was a little bit of hands flapping by both players.

    I donít know what the assistant thought he saw but it wasnít a foul.

  16. #16

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    There is, and always will be, an unconscious bias towards bigger clubs. They have bigger stadia, more fans, more money, and therefore can afford to buy the best players. As a result, there is a natural thought process that, as they can afford to pay bigger salaries and transfer fees to own those better players, their weaker opponents will be a fraction of a second slower to the ball more often than not, challenges by defenders at bigger clubs will be fractionally better timed than their lesser counterparts, etc, even if in reality that is not the case.

    They get more penalties and decisions around the opposition penalty area because, in general, they spend more time there than lesser opponents, but it's also pretty clear that they benefit from a pretty significant "benefit of the doubt" in many situations. VAR will counter some of those, but it won't counter ALL of them. The bloke sat in the studio watching the video replays will be clouded by the same unconscious bias - the only thing he won't have is senior pros at those bigger clubs constantly in his ear, which lead to those decisions in relatively harmless areas of the pitch that don't appear to have any great consequence to them but add up to a lot of frustration.

    I don't think referees are consciously corrupt, but having a pally relationship with certain players at certain clubs really doesn't help their own cause in other people's eyes. This concept of "managing the game" needs to be binned off as well - their job is to apply the laws of the game, if the players aren't capable of playing within that framework then the referee should use the processes available to him (i.e. yellow and red cards). It should not be the referee's job to ensure teams keep 11 men on the pitch, it is the players' responsibility themselves.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevegrant View Post
    There is, and always will be, an unconscious bias towards bigger clubs. They have bigger stadia, more fans, more money, and therefore can afford to buy the best players. As a result, there is a natural thought process that, as they can afford to pay bigger salaries and transfer fees to own those better players, their weaker opponents will be a fraction of a second slower to the ball more often than not, challenges by defenders at bigger clubs will be fractionally better timed than their lesser counterparts, etc, even if in reality that is not the case.

    They get more penalties and decisions around the opposition penalty area because, in general, they spend more time there than lesser opponents, but it's also pretty clear that they benefit from a pretty significant "benefit of the doubt" in many situations. VAR will counter some of those, but it won't counter ALL of them. The bloke sat in the studio watching the video replays will be clouded by the same unconscious bias - the only thing he won't have is senior pros at those bigger clubs constantly in his ear, which lead to those decisions in relatively harmless areas of the pitch that don't appear to have any great consequence to them but add up to a lot of frustration.

    I don't think referees are consciously corrupt, but having a pally relationship with certain players at certain clubs really doesn't help their own cause in other people's eyes. This concept of "managing the game" needs to be binned off as well - their job is to apply the laws of the game, if the players aren't capable of playing within that framework then the referee should use the processes available to him (i.e. yellow and red cards). It should not be the referee's job to ensure teams keep 11 men on the pitch, it is the players' responsibility themselves.
    You're right that referees are influenced by big crowds and big name players. I think this is one reason why we see fairer refereeing when there is a European match with a continental referee.

    I also think it's wrong to appoint Premier League referees to a cup game involving a lower division club. I don't like to see a referee on first-name terms with a player and especially not using friendly nicknames.

  18. #18

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    Of course there is a bias the Lino couldnít wait to give Liverpool that free kick on Friday night he nearly wet his Tena pants in excitement


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  19. #19

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    VAR will (not) sort it out..


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  20. #20

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    I agree with the OP.

    In a game like last night many refs would have been too influenced by the fallout of a red card.

    I think it was marginal whether Silva should have seen red, but I do believe that if the same situation has arisen with a Leicester player, the outcome might well have been different. Also the lunge for which Kompany was booked was as bad as plenty that have resulted in reds in other games.

    I also agree with the idea that many refs have a subconscious expectation that more lowly clubs will have to foul to counter the "top" team's greater skill.

    There is an expectation amongst these "top" clubs that they (and particularly star players) should be given special protection which they exploit by throwing themselves to the ground at the slightest contact. It was noticeable last night that Man City were doing that a lot in the first 20 mins and getting wound up because the ref, correctly, was not automatically giving fouls.

    It's not a level playing field.

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    Last edited by Shroppie; 07-05-2019 at 06:45 PM.

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    It's tricky for refs and hard to believe they are in any way biased in their decisions.

    By and large one suspects they are on the side of football and players, that they like if possible to keep games flowing and not keep blowing their whistles for the sake of it. They use common sense if you will to apply rules that are not black & white in situations that often are not at all clear-cut. They must be crucially aware that their interventions should not wreck the match or atmosphere nor give a clear advantage to one of the teams.

    Handing out a yellow is no big deal intended as it is as a warning to a player to calm down, handing out a second yellow is a very big decision and a game changer; the referee knows that he could by that single act change the outcome of a match so he has to judge the incident by a different standard to that used for the first yellow. It shouldn't be so but it is!

    The problem is that a first yellow doesn't often change a player's behaviour and certainly not in the case of head strong players like Hojberg or our beloved Romeu. Maybe the answer is not to hand out the first yellow too easily when perhaps a verbal from the ref and the coach would do the trick? Or maybe change the system to three yellows and off.

    Sadly referees have become the butt of most club's poor performances. Media and pundits make matters worse by focussing only on a few minor incidents of a match and magnifying them beyond all proportion to their importance to the match... "Let's take a look at that penalty shout" being typical and after ten re-run video reviews they pronounce solemnly "The Ref got that one right!"

    If I were a ref, I'd tell them where to stick their punditry but of course TV is king and lower league journey-men footballers assume the mantle of world class status for insight despite no formal studies, training or qualifications for the job.

    The abuse and criticism that referees get is far beyond anything that most decent people would regard as fair minded or acceptable.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Wayman View Post
    It's tricky for refs and hard to believe they are in any way biased in their decisions.

    By and large one suspects they are on the side of football and players, that they like if possible to keep games flowing and not keep blowing their whistles for the sake of it. They use common sense if you will to apply rules that are not black & white in situations that often are not at all clear-cut. They must be crucially aware that their interventions should not wreck the match or atmosphere nor give a clear advantage to one of the teams.

    Handing out a yellow is no big deal intended as it is as a warning to a player to calm down, handing out a second yellow is a very big decision and a game changer; the referee knows that he could by that single act change the outcome of a match so he has to judge the incident by a different standard to that used for the first yellow. It shouldn't be so but it is!

    The problem is that a first yellow doesn't often change a player's behaviour and certainly not in the case of head strong players like Hojberg or our beloved Romeu. Maybe the answer is not to hand out the first yellow too easily when perhaps a verbal from the ref and the coach would do the trick? Or maybe change the system to three yellows and off.

    Sadly referees have become the butt of most club's poor performances. Media and pundits make matters worse by focussing only on a few minor incidents of a match and magnifying them beyond all proportion to their importance to the match... "Let's take a look at that penalty shout" being typical and after ten re-run video reviews they pronounce solemnly "The Ref got that one right!"

    If I were a ref, I'd tell them where to stick their punditry but of course TV is king and lower league journey-men footballers assume the mantle of world class status for insight despite no formal studies, training or qualifications for the job.

    The abuse and criticism that referees get is far beyond anything that most decent people would regard as fair minded or acceptable.
    Well said sir.

    It is a duty/responsibility of the refereee to keep the game flowing by appropriate use of ‘advantage’.

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