New System ?

[eurosaint]

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/articles/article.php?page_id=10636

 

I'm not sure that this is a good idea. What I would prefer is that we stick with the present system but stop fiddling about with who plays where !

ie. James RB is injured so we move Cork from CB to RB, Wotton from CM to CB and bring in Mills (a debutant) at LB (the whole back line has to start again getting used to each other!).

Surman moved from LB to CM, McGoldrick moved from striker to RM, BWP brought in as LM so the whole midfield is newly formed !

All of this resulted because we had 2 injuries to James & Holmes!

Surely we have a replacement in each position even if it is just a young lad ? IMO all we had to do on Sat was replace James and Holmes (like for like) and the system continues to develop! Shades of Burleyesque tampering here and I'm getting a bit concerned about it !!

[Weston Super Saint]

LOL.

 

When he joined us, the OS stated he was the master of the 4,3,3, and now he wants to change the formation

[Window Cleaner]

LOL.

 

When he joined us, the OS stated he was the master of the 4,3,3, and now he wants to change the formation

 

He's adjusting his game plan. Anyone who watch the mighty (TB less) Patriots get atomised by the Dolphins last evening would appreciate the finer points of a flexible game plan, if you think Saints are bad watch that Pats display,we're like Man City in comparison.One player does make a difference contrary to all the old sporting adages.

[Weston Super Saint]

He's adjusting his game plan. Anyone who watch the mighty (TB less) Patriots get atomised by the Dolphins last evening would appreciate the finer points of a flexible game plan, if you think Saints are bad watch that Pats displayn,we're like Man City in comparison.One player does make a difference contrary to all the old sporting adages.

 

My concern is I don't think he has the experience or guile to change and manage the new system effectively.

 

After all, how much experience has he had at doing so, since he is the master of the 4,3,3??

[70's Mike]

He's adjusting his game plan. Anyone who watch the mighty (TB less) Patriots get atomised by the Dolphins last evening would appreciate the finer points of a flexible game plan, if you think Saints are bad watch that Pats display,we're like Man City in comparison.One player does make a difference contrary to all the old sporting adages.

 

not sure if i understand who is our equivalent to Tom Brady ?

[Crouchie's Lawyer]

I personally cannot get away from the fact that unless they are propper wingers who love to get involved with the attack, having 1 striker with two wide men doesnt seem to work.

 

I would rather traditional 4-4-2. Two strikers is the key.

 

Given the options and available staff I would have the following team:

 

Davis

James / Killer / Perry / Surman

Rudi / Wotton / Schneiderlin / Holmes

Stern / Llana

[Window Cleaner]

My concern is I don't think he has the experience or guile to change and manage the new system effectively.

 

After all, how much experience has he had at doing so, since he is the master of the 4,3,3??

 

 

we're playing Rotherham, I think it's the attacking plan that's going to be changed, 3-2-5, attackers are about all we've got left.We'll win 12-9

[Window Cleaner]

I personally cannot get away from the fact that unless they are propper wingers who love to get involved with the attack, having 1 striker with two wide men doesnt seem to work.

 

I would rather traditional 4-4-2. Two strikers is the key.

 

Given the options and available staff I would have the following team:

 

Davis

James / Killer / Perry / Surman

Rudi / Wotton / Schneiderlin / Holmes

Stern / Llana

 

Nope Schneirderlin is out,as is Gillett. Skacel WILL NOT play.Holmes still out as well.

[slickmick]

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/articles/article.php?page_id=10636

 

I'm not sure that this is a good idea. What I would prefer is that we stick with the present system but stop fiddling about with who plays where !

ie. James RB is injured so we move Cork from CB to RB, Wotton from CM to CB and bring in Mills (a debutant) at LB (the whole back line has to start again getting used to each other!).

Surman moved from LB to CM, McGoldrick moved from striker to RM, BWP brought in as LM so the whole midfield is newly formed !

All of this resulted because we had 2 injuries to James & Holmes!

Surely we have a replacement in each position even if it is just a young lad ? IMO all we had to do on Sat was replace James and Holmes (like for like) and the system continues to develop! Shades of Burleyesque tampering here and I'm getting a bit concerned about it !!

 

 

Thing is Cork is our only fit player that can naturally play at right back and Wotton was our only other choice as a centre back . As for Surman and Mills, they were playing in their natural positions, so I don't see any harm in that. But I do agree with trying to fit BWP and DMG into un-natural positions, they are more effective in the reserves.

[70's Mike]

I personally cannot get away from the fact that unless they are propper wingers who love to get involved with the attack, having 1 striker with two wide men doesnt seem to work.

 

I would rather traditional 4-4-2. Two strikers is the key.

 

Given the options and available staff I would have the following team:

 

Davis

James / Killer / Perry / Surman

Rudi / Wotton / Schneiderlin / Holmes

Stern / Llana

 

playing 4-3-3 only works if you have exceptional players as your middle 3, i tried it with my son's under 14 team in a friendly game and we got swamped

[slickmick]

I personally cannot get away from the fact that unless they are propper wingers who love to get involved with the attack, having 1 striker with two wide men doesnt seem to work.

 

I would rather traditional 4-4-2. Two strikers is the key.

 

Given the options and available staff I would have the following team:

 

Davis

James / Killer / Perry / Surman

Rudi / Wotton / Schneiderlin / Holmes

Stern / Llana

 

 

3 players out of position then ?

[Window Cleaner]

playing 4-3-3 only works if you have exceptional players as your middle 3' date=' i tried it with my son's under 14 team in a friendly game and we got swamped[/quote']

 

Not as easy as it sounds eh? You're right, you need hard men, evil bustards who can play excellent football, like Viera and Petit.

[Window Cleaner]

3 players out of position then ?

 

Yep, out of position in the treatment room and onto the pitch.

[trousers]

Skacel WILL NOT play.

 

Source?

[Crouchie's Lawyer]

I personally cannot get away from the fact that unless they are propper wingers who love to get involved with the attack, having 1 striker with two wide men doesnt seem to work.

 

I would rather traditional 4-4-2. Two strikers is the key.

 

Given the options and available staff I would have the following team:

 

Davis

James / Killer / Perry / Surman

Rudi / Wotton / Schneiderlin / Holmes

Stern / Llana

 

Nope Schneirderlin is out,as is Gillett. Skacel WILL NOT play.Holmes still out as well.

 

As James is injurred and Killer too, I wasnt saying on Sat I would have had, or come this Sat I would like to see. I know of our injurred players hence why I said 'Given the options and available staff' In other words my ideal XI

[70's Mike]

Not as easy as it sounds eh? You're right, you need hard men, evil bustards who can play excellent football, like Viera and Petit.

 

Chelsea made it work with Cole and Robben as the wide 2 strikers, and Lampard, Makele and Essien in midfield.

Very few other sides really play it.

Our attempt with DMG and BWP was awful

[Window Cleaner]

Chelsea made it work with Cole and Robben as the wide 2 strikers, and Lampard, Makele and Essien in midfield.

Very few other sides really play it.

Our attempt with DMG and BWP was awful

 

Lampard and Essien, 2 other brilliant players who are extremely hard.

[Crouchie's Lawyer]

3 players out of position then ?

 

3?

 

Llana can play in the middle, out wide or off the front man as shown so far this season. I firmly believe with a player like John as his partner, he would do well upfront. He is skillful and quick and has proven he can finish the ball.

 

Surman (if that was one of your other ones) has proven he is better as a wingback or full back than a central midfield player. I actually think he has done well as a full back.

 

Rudi - I admit he is a left sided player and playing him on the right is out of position, however, having a talent as good as his available, I would prefer to play him and play him out of position than have him sat rotting in the resi's. He can deliver a cross and is also skillfull with a good shot. He is experienced and we need this in the team.

 

Who else are you classing as out of position then?

[Window Cleaner]

As James is injurred and Killer too, I wasnt saying on Sat I would have had, or come this Sat I would like to see. I know of our injurred players hence why I said 'Given the options and available staff' In other words my ideal XI

 

 

But they're not available just now,which is the whole point of changing the system.James and Holmes aren't putting the crosses in which to Jan's mind is the problem, he's trying to play two all out attackers on the wings in McG and BWP, they aren't natural there so they keep drifting inside.

[Crouchie's Lawyer]

But they're not available just now,which is the whole point of changing the system.James and Holmes aren't putting the crosses in which to Jan's mind is the problem, he's trying to play two all out attackers on the wings in McG and BWP, they aren't natural there so they keep drifting inside.

 

You're not seeing my original point. I was not saying Jan having decided to change your formation, here is what I think you should do and who you should play.

 

I was saying I dont think he was right to deploy 4-2-1-2-1 or 4-3-3 whichever way you look at it from the start. He should have started with 4-2-2 and those would be the players I would pick for each position based on a fully fit squad.

[slickmick]

3?

 

Llana can play in the middle, out wide or off the front man as shown so far this season. I firmly believe with a player like John as his partner, he would do well upfront. He is skillful and quick and has proven he can finish the ball.

 

Surman (if that was one of your other ones) has proven he is better as a wingback or full back than a central midfield player. I actually think he has done well as a full back.

 

Rudi - I admit he is a left sided player and playing him on the right is out of position, however, having a talent as good as his available, I would prefer to play him and play him out of position than have him sat rotting in the resi's. He can deliver a cross and is also skillfull with a good shot. He is experienced and we need this in the team.

 

Who else are you classing as out of position then?

 

 

I don't rate Surman at left back, its not his natural position, the same can be said for James and yes Rudi is the other one.

Cork is a more natural right back and I'd like to see Mills again at left back behind Surman on the left.

[Scudamore]

Well you were all clammering for a plan b. Now you have one...

[Window Cleaner]

not sure if i understand who is our equivalent to Tom Brady ?

 

 

Anyone who's out through injury. The point being that when you have a "system" it is often only as good as it's component parts. If you have injuries

the replacements can't always fulfill the exact role of the players they replace,

thus you have to tweak the system to compensate. Holmes,Schneiderlin,even Gillett seem to be key in Jan's system, if they're out you may have to change to benefit.

[slickmick]

3?

 

Llana can play in the middle, out wide or off the front man as shown so far this season. I firmly believe with a player like John as his partner, he would do well upfront. He is skillful and quick and has proven he can finish the ball.

 

Surman (if that was one of your other ones) has proven he is better as a wingback or full back than a central midfield player. I actually think he has done well as a full back.

 

Rudi - I admit he is a left sided player and playing him on the right is out of position, however, having a talent as good as his available, I would prefer to play him and play him out of position than have him sat rotting in the resi's. He can deliver a cross and is also skillfull with a good shot. He is experienced and we need this in the team.

 

Who else are you classing as out of position then?

 

 

p.s

I agree with Lallana up front but with Pekhard. Apart from that your not far off.

[Window Cleaner]

You're not seeing my original point. I was not saying Jan having decided to change your formation, here is what I think you should do and who you should play.

 

I was saying I dont think he was right to deploy 4-2-1-2-1 or 4-3-3 whichever way you look at it from the start. He should have started with 4-2-2 and those would be the players I would pick for each position based on a fully fit squad.

 

 

Ah right Professor Pangloss, all for the best in the best of possible worlds sort of stuff.

[Crouchie's Lawyer]

p.s

I agree with Lallana up front but with Pekhard. Apart from that your not far off.

 

Ah, forgot about Pekhart...

[offix]

Sounds like he's moving away from this Total Football malarkey. Better late then never.

[Wildgoose]

You're not seeing my original point. I was not saying Jan having decided to change your formation, here is what I think you should do and who you should play.

 

I was saying I dont think he was right to deploy 4-2-1-2-1 or 4-3-3 whichever way you look at it from the start. He should have started with 4-2-2 and those would be the players I would pick for each position based on a fully fit squad.

 

4-2-2 ???? Crumbs, I thought we were having a bad enough time as it is!!!!!! ;-)

[inoffthepost]

It's been quite clear in the last two games that when we've reverted to 4-4-2

we start posing the oppostion more problems.

 

There's a distinct lack of width with the 'total' formation probably due to the paceless full backs having been caught out and not being quick enough to get back.

 

Whilst I think we knocked it about well in the early games we've taken a few knocks since and confidence and belief isn't great. He has to change it because we've too many round pegs in square holes.

[Stu Man Do]

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/articles/article.php?page_id=10636

 

I'm not sure that this is a good idea. What I would prefer is that we stick with the present system but stop fiddling about with who plays where !

ie. James RB is injured so we move Cork from CB to RB, Wotton from CM to CB and bring in Mills (a debutant) at LB (the whole back line has to start again getting used to each other!).

Surman moved from LB to CM, McGoldrick moved from striker to RM, BWP brought in as LM so the whole midfield is newly formed !

All of this resulted because we had 2 injuries to James & Holmes!

Surely we have a replacement in each position even if it is just a young lad ? IMO all we had to do on Sat was replace James and Holmes (like for like) and the system continues to develop! Shades of Burleyesque tampering here and I'm getting a bit concerned about it !!

 

Yes I understand your concerns but lets break these changes down ....

Cork to RB from CB - Wotton as we saw is a capable CB and who else do you suggest we play at right back? Another player with zero experience?

 

Surman to CM - Surman is clearly not a left back and really should only be played there when we have no specialist about e.g. Mills

 

Unfortunately we have NO proper wingers to replace Holmes and surely Cork is the 2nd choice right back seeing as he is our utility defender.

 

Personally I'm very happy JP is looking at other formations clearly the one we are playing isnt suitable unless you have the 2 wingers actually attacking as wingers instead of ALWAYS cutting in ala Dyer, Thomson, BWP or MgD

[JibMcdo]

Bialkowski

 

James Perry Cork Mills

 

Lallana Wotton Surman Dyer

 

Pekhart John

 

Forecast, BWP, Thomson, McG, Hatch, White, Davies

 

Unavailable: Svensson, Gillett, Lancashire, Thomas, Schniederlin, Holmes, Euell, Pulis, Skacel

[Glasgow_Saint]

R.I.P Total Football 2008-2008

[Window Cleaner]

Bialkowski

 

James Perry Cork Mills

 

Lallana Wotton Surman Dyer

 

Pekhart John

 

Forecast, BWP, Thomson, McG, Hatch, White, Davies

 

Unavailable: Svensson, Gillett, Lancashire, Thomas, Schniederlin, Holmes, Euell, Pulis, Skacel

 

 

This is the actual team for Rotherham or a hypothesis?

[Wes Tender]

R.I.P Total Football 2008-2008

Not a lot else to say about it, is there? Either we are giving up on the entire essence of JP and the revolutionary football, therefore acknowledging that it doesn't work in this country, or at least not with inexperienced youngsters, or this is just a short term expedient brought about by shortages of personnel who can play the system. And yet the essence of the system as I understood it, was that players would be skilled enough to switch positions at the drop of a hat during an actual match, let alone from match to match.

[DT]

Coach in light bulb moment shocker

[Um Bongo]

Coach in light bulb moment shocker

 

Coach in remembering how to do his job shocker!

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The recognition that 4-3-3 isn't working is both welcome and overdue , as others have said this still doesn't solve the problem of the club having no fit/adequate wingers in the absence of Skacel and Holmes - I exclude Nathan Dyer who apart from his inability to take the ball to the byline is fundamentally rubbish anyway .

I've seen young Matthew 'Fish' Mills play well in the left midfield position but this would create as many problems as it solves as he's obviously needed at LB . The truth is this squad is too small and limited - another result of our crippling financial problems so we'll just have to make the best of it .

[Window Cleaner]

The recognition that 4-3-3 isn't working is both welcome and overdue , as others have said this still doesn't solve the problem of the club having no fit/adequate wingers in the absence of Skacel and Holmes - I exclude Nathan Dyer who apart from his inability to take the ball to the byline is fundamentally rubbish anyway .

I've seen young Matthew 'Fish' Mills play well in the left midfield position but this would create as many problems as it solves as he's obviously needed at LB . The truth is this squad is too small and limited - another result of our crippling financial problems so we'll just have to make the best of it .

 

 

29 man squad isn't particularly small but we do seem to be having more than our share of injuries again.Limited is a fair appraisal, we need to get at least Gasmi into action, the continued absence of Schneirderlin is worrying.I thought Euell might have been extremely useful for us-evidently I was wrong.

[derry]

It doesn't matter what system you employ if the players detailed to do a job refuse to comply.

 

McGoldrick, in the last two matches should have been taken off when he didn't play wide as required.

 

His slumped shoulders and hands on hips were disgraceful. The team can't play if the width is not there.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

29 man squad isn't particularly small but we do seem to be having more than our share of injuries again.Limited is a fair appraisal, we need to get at least Gasmi into action, the continued absence of Schneirderlin is worrying.I thought Euell might have been extremely useful for us-evidently I was wrong.

 

Unfortunatly some of our 29 'men' look and play like boys .

[70's Mike]

It doesn't matter what system you employ if the players detailed to do a job refuse to comply.

 

McGoldrick, in the last two matches should have been taken off when he didn't play wide as required.

 

His slumped shoulders and hands on hips were disgraceful. The team can't play if the width is not there.

 

 

not the managers fault according to another poster on another thread.

[aintforever]

We'll be route one by Xmas.

[eelpie]

LOL.

 

When he joined us, the OS stated he was the master of the 4,3,3, and now he wants to change the formation

 

The long passing didn't work on Saturday, because unlike Wednesdays accurate short passing game against Ipswich too many were going to the wrong side.

 

I thought JPV looked passive and dejected. Why did he not make changes sooner? Dyer would have given the side energy at least.

[RobM]

LOL.

 

When he joined us, the OS stated he was the master of the 4,3,3, and now he wants to change the formation

 

I don't see the problem? I'd be much more worried if JP rigidly stuck to the same formation whether or not he has the personnel to make it work, just because he is 'the master of the 4 3 3'.

 

Instead, he is saying if we don't have the players to naturally make this work, we will change the formation to suit the natural talents available. If that means we play two up front, one up front or even three up front, who cares so long as the best players available are played in their best positions? If the next game comes and others are available, perhaps he will go back to the original formation.

 

In my opinion, a good coach will change the tactics to suit the personnel and even the opposition.

 

There are always members of this forum (you can make up your own minds as to who) that ***** and moan about 'no plan B'.... what do you call this? The coach has identified that sticking rigidly with one system isn't always the best idea and has said he is open to changing things to make the best of the players available

[um pahars]

I don't think he has much choice considering that:

 

a) recent performances have been poor and crying out for doing something different, and

 

b) the personnel available to him.

 

Hope we get a change in performance, if not a change in luck to getthis show back on the road.

 

A couple of wins out of the next three games and we're off and running.

[offix]

I don't think he has much choice considering that:

 

a) recent performances have been poor and crying out for doing something different, and

 

b) the personnel available to him.

 

Hope we get a change in performance, if not a change in luck to getthis show back on the road.

 

A couple of wins out of the next three games and we're off and running.

 

Agreed, he has no choice and I am happy he is making the choice. Sad though that all of us could see the failure of the total-football experiment as soon as it was announced, but the powers-that-be couldn't see it then?

[saintbob40]

From his interview sounds like JP is going with the following for Rotherham:

 

..............Davies.................

Cork...Killer.....Perry.....Mills

James...Wooton...Lallana..Surman

...... .....DMG.....SJ..............

[Dannyboy_Saint]

Lets give 4-4-2 a try. I would go with:

 

Davis

 

Cork, Svensson, Perry, Mills

 

Lallana, James, Wotton, Surman

 

John, Pekhart

 

Subs: Bart, BWP, DMG, Dyer, Skacel(if fit)

 

Pretty strong spine to the team with the experience of Davis, Svensson, Perry, Wotton and John. James in the holding role where he has played for most of his saints career in youth and reserves and 2 big strikers up front to hold onto the ball and bring others into play. Both Wingers are capable of crossing the ball as well as cutting in to shoot while the 2 central players concentrate on breaking up opposition attacks to feed the wingers and strikers.

[dubai_phil]

The system should always fit the players.

When England have tried different styles it has tended not to work as it's been the Lampard Gerrard need to do everything bit that pulls it apart.

 

I get bored saying LM did exactly this many years ago.

 

Simple thing this week is we have no choice or players left - especially as Skacel is nowhere to be seen apparently, and there really isn't much else left in the pot to try and play with that "diamond" 4 up front.

 

Good grief - coach has again been shown to have common sense shocker

 

More worryingly - hope our "much needed motivational cup run" doesn't 1) bring more injuries or 2) end messily

 

But strangely I think we'll bumble a result out of our two fairy liquid bottles, an empty toilet roll middle, some brown paper, string and glue

 

29 players in squad

Unavailable: Svensson, Gillett, Lancashire, Thomas, Schniederlin, Holmes, Euell, Pulis, Skacel and we forgot Gasmi (again) leaves 19 fit players, three are keepers jeez we'll have trouble filling the bench at the weekend if we're not careful!

 

(Aren't we supposed to have 7 on the bench in the Carling Cup?)

[Ivan Katalinic's 'tache]

He actually said we were going to try a new cistern to make sure all our hopes truly go down the pan.