Does Cheating Matter?

[Professor]

Re the handball that gave Rickie his penalty for the first goal in the JPT final. It seemed a foolish decision by the defender, Murphy, as he could have been sent off under the rules of the game. Even if Rickie had scored anyway, that would have been better for Carlisle than playing for 80 minutes with 10 men - but Murphy hoped to get away with it, took the risk and he did stay on the pitch.

 

FA advice to referees is that "deliberately handling the ball is normally punished only by a direct free kick, or penalty kick if the offence occurred inside the penalty area." The advice says that a caution or dismissal is not normally required, - which makes sense because even if the offence occurs in the penalty area it may not have prevented a goal being scored. - But the advice goes on:- "a player is sent off, however, if he prevents a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball. This punishment in Law arises not from the act of the player deliberately handling the ball but from the unacceptable and unfair intervention which prevented a goal being scored." That suggests that Murphy should have been shown a red card.

 

But earlier there had been a scramble in Saints' area. Two Carlisle defenders were clearly being held back with arms round their bodies by Jaidi and Harding. Then one of them, Kavanagh made a theatrical 'dive'. The ref did nothing either for the holding offences, or for the dive, maybe he thought one cancelled the other out, but probably Carlisle should have had a penalty. My questions are:- does cheating matter as long as your team wins, and if it does, how can referees be made to apply the rules more throughly? If it doesn't matter, why bother with rules at all?

 

PS - A great result and a fair one! Even if Carlisle had got the first goal there was no way they would have won such a one-sided game, but it would be nice if football was a more honest game.

[Gemmel]

Re the handball that gave Rickie his penalty for the first goal in the JPT final. It seemed a foolish decision by the defender, Murphy, as he could have been sent off under the rules of the game. Even if Rickie had scored anyway, that would have been better for Carlisle than playing for 80 minutes with 10 men - but Murphy hoped to get away with it, took the risk and he did stay on the pitch.

 

FA advice to referees is that "deliberately handling the ball is normally punished only by a direct free kick, or penalty kick if the offence occurred inside the penalty area." The advice says that a caution or dismissal is not normally required, - which makes sense because even if the offence occurs in the penalty area it may not have prevented a goal being scored. - But the advice goes on:- "a player is sent off, however, if he prevents a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball. This punishment in Law arises not from the act of the player deliberately handling the ball but from the unacceptable and unfair intervention which prevented a goal being scored." That suggests that Murphy should have been shown a red card.

 

But earlier there had been a scramble in Saints' area. Two Carlisle defenders were clearly being held back with arms round their bodies by Jaidi and Harding. Then one of them, Kavanagh made a theatrical 'dive'. The ref did nothing either for the holding offences, or for the dive, maybe he thought one cancelled the other out, but probably Carlisle should have had a penalty. My questions are:- does cheating matter as long as your team wins, and if it does, how can referees be made to apply the rules more throughly? If it doesn't matter, why bother with rules at all?

 

PS - A great result and a fair one! Even if Carlisle had got the first goal there was no way they would have won such a one-sided game, but it would be nice if football was a more honest game.

 

I think it was more panic than pre meditated. He had Rickie steaming in behind him and wasn't going to make it with his head.

 

If it had been a league match he would have been sent off, the ref let him off as it was a cup final and the irony is that the ref will get into trouble for it, more than the player.

[sotonian]

cheating should either be strictly dealt with, after using tv evidence or accepted as part of the game,

 

difficult one really, if one of our players were to cheat to get us a win, would we moan,?

[NorthamSteve]

A certain benefit-of-the-doubt is always given for the big occasions. Just look at what happened in the league cup this year.

 

The fact is that bending of the rules like holding in the box etc happens a lot in a game. Some things difficult to spot which brings in the argument about a extra goal-line official. I have always got the impression that FIFA don't want it as there will be suddenly an awful lot of goals and/or penalties in the game which may not be good for it as a spectacle.

 

I guess it's something that winds me up when it goes for us and not when it doesn't, I think we've had a bit of luck with this all season. That said, it's about time it balanced out a little for us.

 

That's football for you.

[doddisalegend]

I've just finished watching mondays Late Kick Off on i-player. I think they showed two goals scored with a hand, one keeper sent off under duboius circumstances and another one who stayed on the pitch after rugby tackling an oppostion player (to add injury to insult the keeper made a string of good saves after the foul) plus a blatant foul thrower that resulted in a goal. Refs make bad calls all the time its annoying when it happens to us but in the long run these things tend to even out. Unless FIFA bring in cameras it will continue to happen, the best we can hope for is the refs get it right 80% of the time. The other 20% gives fans something to talk about after the match.

[St Landrew]

Based on the fact that video evidence isn't available, referees are allowed a little scope for their own judgement. In the strict view of fouls, and action taken on them, Murphy should have been sent off. Of course, so should have Claus, back in 2003. Both referees made crucial decisions, and the games were possibly the better for it. But that's almost certainly my Saints bias creeping in. As far as Carlisle's penalty shout is concerned, at present, the culture of shirt pulling and player restraining seems to go largely unpunished in the melee of the penalty area. Often, unless it is blatent, the referee and his lino can't tell because they have too much to follow, as it is. If we want near transparency then we must have video evidence. We can't have near fair play without it.

[View From The Top]

They interviewed that Carlisle player and he said he knew Lambert was free behind him and would score so took a chance.

 

The rules have have said he should have gone but the penalty was enough IMHO.

 

Claus should have gone in the first few mins at Cardiff if the rules have been fully enforced.

[St Landrew]

I've just finished watching mondays Late Kick Off on i-player. I think they showed two goals scored with a hand, one keeper sent off under duboius circumstances and another one who stayed on the pitch after rugby tackling an oppostion player (to add injury to insult the keeper made a string of good saves after the foul) plus a blatant foul thrower that resulted in a goal. Refs make bad calls all the time its annoying when it happens to us but in the long run these things tend to even out. Unless FIFA bring in cameras it will continue to happen, the best we can hope for is the refs get it right 80% of the time. The other 20% gives fans something to talk about after the match.

 

No offence to you at all matey, as you didn't invent the phrase, but I think that's the biggest pile of rubbish ever suggested in football. Who keeps the statistics on these things..? Who tests the theory that bad decisions/luck evens itself out..? Who can judge whether one act of luck is worth more than another..?

 

What about the bad decision that allows one team to win 3-1 rather than 2-1, in one game, but yet another piece of bad decision making gets the same team a loss of 2-1 instead of a 1-1 draw, which might have kept them in a division..? How do you square that..?

 

Luck, whatever that is, or bad decision making, doesn't necessarily even itself out over time.

[Professor]

I wonder if the penalty and the sending off are too harsh as punishments, giving such an advantage to the other team that players play for these outcomes, while refs are sometimes reluctant to act in case it 'spoils' a game. If the punishment for a foul was a free kick from further out unless a goal scoring opportunity was prevented, players would have less incentive to dive. And if instead of sending off, there was an enforced substitution, the game would not be spoilt for the fans and refs would be more readily prepared to apply the punishment. The game could be saved from cheating but it needs strong action by FIFA.

It really doesn't make sense to say that cheating is OK if our team benefits, but not if the other team does. I agree with the idea of extra officials - that could be used at all levels of football - whereas TV replays may not always be available at every ground, even at the lower levels of the professional game, and they would slow the game down.

[doddisalegend]

No offence to you at all matey, as you didn't invent the phrase, but I think that's the biggest pile of rubbish ever suggested in football. Who keeps the statistics on these things..? Who tests the theory that bad decisions/luck evens itself out..? Who can judge whether one act of luck is worth more than another..?

 

What about the bad decision that allows one team to win 3-1 rather than 2-1, in one game, but yet another piece of bad decision making gets the same team a loss of 2-1 instead of a 1-1 draw, which might have kept them in a division..? How do you square that..?

 

Luck, whatever that is, or bad decision making, doesn't necessarily even itself out over time.

 

To quote you

 

Murphy should have been sent off. Of course, so should have Claus, back in 2003

 

Proved my point football Karma we got away with it in 2003 Carlisle got away with it on Sunday. Fans are biased we all pick up on the bad stuff but we tend not to notice the stuff that goes for us. Tranmere game penalty against us (no way a penalty according to our fans) MK Dons Fonte goes down like a hollywood stuntman(no way a penalty according to Dons fans). Of course I've not done some scientific study but I still firmly believe that of the course of a season we get desicions for and against us in equal measure, its just as fans we tend to ignore the bad reffing that's in our favour.

[Gemmel]

Of course I've not done some scientific study but I still firmly believe that of the course of a season we get desicions for and against us in equal measure, its just as fans we tend to ignore the bad reffing that's in our favour.

 

Can't wait for the game we get the pay back for the Leeds ref

[Steel City Saint]

Does cheating matter, yes it does, always.

 

Does it always get punished? No. Does it sometimes bring reward? Yes.

 

Whatever the result the bottom line is it shows you something about a person and that matters.

[St Landrew]

To quote you

 

Murphy should have been sent off. Of course, so should have Claus, back in 2003

 

Proved my point football Karma we got away with it in 2003 Carlisle got away with it on Sunday. Fans are biased we all pick up on the bad stuff but we tend not to notice the stuff that goes for us. Tranmere game penalty against us (no way a penalty according to our fans) MK Dons Fonte goes down like a hollywood stuntman(no way a penalty according to Dons fans). Of course I've not done some scientific study but I still firmly believe that of the course of a season we get desicions for and against us in equal measure, its just as fans we tend to ignore the bad reffing that's in our favour.

 

I don't dispute that we get good and bad decisions. My point is that they're not necessarily in equal measure, and not necessarily equal in importance. Something which you didn't answer, I might add. That... luck tends to even itself over a season... phrase is said by pundits who have long since given up the game, and it's a comfortable throw away line. And people believe it as if it was passed down by god on a stone tablet. If it was ever tested I'm very dubious it would actually be true.

[brmbrm]

Be fair: players have a fraction of a second to decide what to do, they panic, they rush, they act on instinct, they do the second-best thing, they are not perfect.

 

hence they do the silly handball and things like that. I think we shold be a bit practical and realsitic about it all.

 

Ball. Come. Fast. Fly. Jump. Head. Reach. Hope. Stretch. Grab. Fail. trive. Effort. Weak. Nearly. Hand ball. Penalty. F&ck.

[westofshannonsaint]

F*ckin henry, handballing cheat, after all those years of me saying he was a good "decent" player

[doddisalegend]

I don't dispute that we get good and bad decisions. My point is that they're not necessarily in equal measure, and not necessarily equal in importance. Something which you didn't answer, I might add. That... luck tends to even itself over a season... phrase is said by pundits who have long since given up the game, and it's a comfortable throw away line. And people believe it as if it was passed down by god on a stone tablet. If it was ever tested I'm very dubious it would actually be true.

 

Well if we're going to split hairs your right no one has done a study which means I can't prove it however it also means you can't disprove it either. We will have to wait for the study in to "ref ****ups and do they even out over a season" PHD paper to find out whose right.

 

To answer your other question no clubs season hangs on one bad call from a ref. If they get relegated in the last match (as you suggested) becuase of a poor ref call the players and fans will use it as an excuse just to deflect from how crap they were all season. You can bet they had another call in another match that helped them get a win when the should of got a draw. They won't see that way becuase it happened two games into the season and has been forgotten but it will have happened and if you swapped those incidents around that team would still get relegated.

[St Landrew]

Well if we're going to split hairs your right no one has done a study which means I can't prove it however it also means you can't disprove it either. We will have to wait for the study in to "ref ****ups and do they even out over a season" PHD paper to find out whose right.

 

To answer your other question no clubs season hangs on one bad call from a ref. If they get relegated in the last match (as you suggested) becuase of a poor ref call the players and fans will use it as an excuse just to deflect from how crap they were all season. You can bet they had another call in another match that helped them get a win when the should of got a draw. They won't see that way becuase it happened two games into the season and has been forgotten but it will have happened and if you swapped those incidents around that team would still get relegated.

 

As you say, perhaps someone should do a study. There's plenty of data available.

[trousers]

Sin bins?

[positivepete]

Of course it evens out, all the top teams get the decisions their way, all the bottom teams get the decisions against them.

[Gingeletiss]

My questions are:- does cheating matter as long as your team wins, and if it does, how can referees be made to apply the rules (Laws) more throughly? If it doesn't matter, why bother with rules (Laws) at all?

 

Prof, IMO, the question about cheating comes down to one basic fact. Do you have any morals, are you an honest person? If Refs were to apply the Laws, and stop interpreting them to suit their own purposes, then the game would be cleaned up, and our young children taking up the game, would not be throwing themselves to the floor, or pulling shirts, at the tender age of nine!.

 

The cheating by these highly paid over-hyped 'professional' players, has put many off the game. Managers and coaches are complicit in this cheating.

[Gingeletiss]

Be fair: players have a fraction of a second to decide what to do, they panic, they rush, they act on instinct, they do the second-best thing, they are not perfect.

 

hence they do the silly handball and things like that. I think we shold be a bit practical and realsitic about it all.

 

Ball. Come. Fast. Fly. Jump. Head. Reach. Hope. Stretch. Grab. Fail. trive. Effort. Weak. Nearly. Hand ball. Penalty. F&ck.

 

Looking at his interview afterwards, he admitted that he done it deliberately, that IMHO is cheating.

[AlfredKo]

Definitely it matters. Henry handed ball and took Fracne to the World Cup but the residence in France were just ****ed off by that.

It is always ****ing garbage if you have to cheat for win.

However, I think cheating after you have won the game is alright, I don't mind they cheated after winning 4-1.

[alpine_saint]

Such short memories we have.....

 

Would we have been able to discuss the topic of "cheating" so objectively if Claus had been sent off in the first few minutes of the 2003 Cup Final for flattening Thierry Henry in our box ?

 

I havent got a problem that the ref didnt red-card Murphy. This was probably the most exciting day in Murphy's career - he was entitled to be cut some slack. Carlisle would have gone down into lock-down mode and the spectacle of the game would have been a lot less exciting. The ref got it spot-on for me - Carlisle were punished and it set the tone for a heavy defeat.

 

I remember feeling really sorry for that ManYoo player who became the first to be sent off in an FA Cup final.

Edited 31 March, 2010 by alpine_saint

[AlfredKo]

Such short memories we have.....

 

Would we have been able to discuss the topic of "cheating" so objectively if Claus had been sent off in the first few minutes of the 2003 Cup Final for flattening Thierry Henry in our box ?

 

Could we won if Claus had been sent off.

[alpine_saint]

Could we won if Claus had been sent off.

 

What was that, Yoda ? ;-)

[sotonist]

Can AlfredKo haz cheezburger?

[John Smith]

Personally, I think the ref got this spot on. The players also got on with it, not calling for a red card. The ref got it right because it wasn't a 'clear' goalscoring opportunity, which is what the rules say. If anything it was a clear 'possible' goal scoring opportunity and here's why.

 

Rickie was not in cotrol of the ball, Rickie was being marked by a covering player, no contact had been made with the ball and so was not 'on its way in. If Rickie had headed the ball toward goal and the defender clearly and deliberately handled it to prevent it going in, then different story, mandatory red.

 

However, under the rules of the game, deliberate hand ball is a yellow card offence and a penalty was awarded as this offence took place in the box. Just because we all saw Rickie steaming in behind, doesn;t mean he would've headed it or would've scored if it weren;t for the intervention. A goal scoring opportunity was prevented, BUT, not in the eyes of the law.

 

Ref got it spot on.

[sadoldgit]

Yes cheating does matter. If you are going to win, win fair and square. Otherwise what is the point? Maradonna and Henry have both marred great careers with cheating and that is what many will remember them for rather than the skills and excitment they brought to the game. I am glad he wasn't sent off as that would have taken some of the gloss off of the win, but he should have gone for what he did.

[sadoldgit]

This is what makes the rules of the game so stupid. No consistancy. Why is is ok to send someone off for this in the 50th minute of a league game but not in the first few minutes of a Final? If Vidic had gone the other week it would have been a different game. Surley cheating is cheating, whenever and whereevr it happens? I agree about the "spectacle" etc...but really, is that enough reason to let cheats off?

[alpine_saint]

Yes cheating does matter. If you are going to win, win fair and square. Otherwise what is the point? Maradonna and Henry have both marred great careers with cheating and that is what many will remember them for rather than the skills and excitment they brought to the game. I am glad he wasn't sent off as that would have taken some of the gloss off of the win, but he should have gone for what he did.

 

Did this "cheating" go unpunished or not ?

 

Right, thought not.

 

Piety not required.

[St Landrew]

Did this "cheating" go unpunished or not ?

 

Right, thought not.

 

Piety not required.

 

Forgive me for seeming a bit dim here, Alpine, but I'm quite sure of the point you are making.

[Chez]

I hate seeing our players cheat. Fonte diving, or shall we say making the most from a poor tackle at MK Donns, Skacel sticking his arse out and then falling over near the corner flag to get us a cheap free kick, or Morgan taking a gentle knock only to hold his face and make a big deal out of it are all incidents that have annoyed me in recent times. If you are happy to overlook these incidents then I don't see how you can compain when someone cheats us in the same way.

[benjii]

I hate seeing our players cheat. Fonte diving, or shall we say making the most from a poor tackle at MK Donns, Skacel sticking his arse out and then falling over near the corner flag to get us a cheap free kick, or Morgan taking a gentle knock only to hold his face and make a big deal out of it are all incidents that have annoyed me in recent times. If you are happy to overlook these incidents then I don't see how you can compain when someone cheats us in the same way.

 

Certainly, this is a relevant point in my opinion.

 

It is why managers' complaints about referees and opposition players rarely have any gravitas - if they came out and castigated their players for cheating then they might.

[AlfredKo]

Can AlfredKo haz cheezburger?

 

I always had cheeseburger when I was in the University of Southampton.

[alpine_saint]

Forgive me for seeming a bit dim here, Alpine, but I'm quite sure of the point you are making.

 

As am I ;-)

[JibMcdo]

No way he meant to handball it, just a panic reflex.

[Gingeletiss]

No way he meant to handball it, just a panic reflex.

 

Sorry, you're wrong, he admitted it in his interview after the game.

[hasper57saint]

Cheating has become 'acceptable' in football. At almost every throw-in,free kick or 'dive' players take advantage of very complacent refereeing. Adding five yards to a throw is an advatage. Adding two or three yards to a free kick is an advantage. 'Diving' without any contact whatsoever is appalling. I hate cheating in football by ANY player (Saints included). What does it do to for kids 'Perform like Rodney Marsh' once you're in the box? They copy it and so the cheating becomes the norm.Refs should Red Card any player who tries it on to gain an advantage. And yes; I do live in the real world.

[View From The Top]

No way he meant to handball it, just a panic reflex.

 

They interviewed him straight afterwards on the FLS and he said he did it on purpose as he knew RL had peeled off the back of him and was going to have a free header.

[alpine_saint]

Cheating is swings-and-roundabouts.

 

Was I annoyed at Maradonnna in 1986 ? Yes I f**king well was.

 

Was I embarassed by Michael Owen in 2002 ? Nope, laughing my tits off at justice being served.

 

Everyone cheats. Sometimes you get away with it, sometimes you fall foul of it. Law of averages suggests they even out.

 

 

If we are leading by one goal in the last minute of the last match of the season and thereby are sitting in 6th place, and Southend get a one-on-one break on goal, and Kelvin comes dashing out of the area and does a Harald Schumacher special on the attacker, how will you all react ?????

Edited 31 March, 2010 by alpine_saint

[fred kemp]

cheating has spread since the foreign players arrived, that bloody nani last night was a friggin' disgrace. i agree with ging. in all that he says, the young ones just copy these creeps, football loses.

[david in sweden]

They interviewed that Carlisle player and he said he knew Lambert was free behind him and would score so took a chance.

 

The rules have have said he should have gone but the penalty was enough IMHO.

 

Claus should have gone in the first few mins at Cardiff if the rules have been fully enforced.

 

AND the Sky News commentator said that the ref. didn't see it.. but took it from the linesman's flagging for the offence.

[Jack]

If we cheat and win, then cheating happens in football, and I'd advise the oppostion to live with it.

 

If we get cheated against and lose/fail to win because of it, then I will be fickle, complain a lot, and feel robbed.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

Mick Channon was my first Saints hero and was also pretty good at getting penalties.

[Badger]

Such short memories we have.....

 

Would we have been able to discuss the topic of "cheating" so objectively if Claus had been sent off in the first few minutes of the 2003 Cup Final for flattening Thierry Henry in our box ?

 

I havent got a problem that the ref didnt red-card Murphy. This was probably the most exciting day in Murphy's career - he was entitled to be cut some slack. Carlisle would have gone down into lock-down mode and the spectacle of the game would have been a lot less exciting. The ref got it spot-on for me - Carlisle were punished and it set the tone for a heavy defeat.

 

I remember feeling really sorry for that ManYoo player who became the first to be sent off in an FA Cup final.

 

In 2003 we were perhaps indebted to that sporting fellow Thierry Henry's sense of gentlemanly conduct in staying on his feet.

 

As for Murphy let me throw this into the debate.Would we feel so magnanimous about him staying on the pitch,and the referee's interpretation of the rules,had Murphy appeared in our 6 yard box in the 89th minute to head Carlisle's winner?

 

Had he done a Ronald Koeman on us then I suspect the mood would be quite different.

 

No right answer here.As it turned out we can't complain about it,but the situation could have been different.

[scotty]

I think it was more panic than pre meditated. He had Rickie steaming in behind him and wasn't going to make it with his head.

 

If it had been a league match he would have been sent off, the ref let him off as it was a cup final and the irony is that the ref will get into trouble for it, more than the player.

 

Same as. I dont suppose Murphy had time to sit down and evaluate it rationally, he was just well up for the game like all the players.

[St Landrew]

Forgive me for seeming a bit dim here, Alpine, but I'm quite sure of the point you are making.

 

As am I ;-)

 

Bollix..! I left out the NOT in... but I'm not quite sure...

 

I seem to do that a lot nowadays. My fingers can't keep up with my thinking.

 

That's probably the best way round if I'm going to have any problem at all.

[Professor]

Interesting thought following a comment, I think by AlfredKO. If France win the World Cup, will all the talk be about how they got there by cheating? Much as fans would still enjoy the outcome, there would be a sour taste in a lot of French mouths, and it wouldn't just be the garlic.

[scotty]

Interesting thought following a comment, I think by AlfredKO. If France win the World Cup, will all the talk be about how they got there by cheating? Much as fans would still enjoy the outcome, there would be a sour taste in a lot of French mouths, and it wouldn't just be the garlic.

 

like hell there would.

[Tac-tics]

I've seen a game where a player dived, his team captain took the penalty and gave it back to the keeper and threatend to back hand the diver if he did it again.

 

Massive respect, even though it is a tad cringey in a Paolo Di Canio aspect.