Should We Leave The EU?

[View From The Top]

There is a very interesting debate regarding this on another thread and as we seem to have a wide spread of political leanings on here I thought it would be interesting to see the consensus?

 

Like many I have no issues with many aspects of the EU such as trade and freedom of work and movement but feel very uncomfortable with much of the federalist structure and it's unelected nature and my politics are left of centre.

 

If a referendum I think I would vote yes, leave.

[Thedelldays]

There is a very interesting debate regarding this on another thread and as we seem to have a wide spread of political leanings on here I thought it would be interesting to see the consensus?

 

Like many I have no issues with many aspects of the EU such as trade and freedom of work and movement but feel very uncomfortable with much of the federalist structure and it's unelected nature and my politics are left of centre.

 

If a referendum I think I would vote yes, leave.

agree with that

 

trade agreements, etc are what it is all about..suits everyone

but unelected people passing laws in the UK...

 

but single currency etc...no thanks

 

hmmm, I wonder what people would feel if say the tories came to power without even having an election...

[RedAndWhite91]

I wouldn't be upset if we left the EU. I think it'd be important to carry on being trading partners and strong allies though.

 

In 2008 we paid the EU £13.7 billion for it's services, I bet it has gone up more now due to inflation. £13.7 billion works out at about £37 million. £37,000,000 a day to be part of the EU in 2008! Surely that money could be put to better use here in the UK?

[SuperMikey]

I'm not sure that leaving the EU would be very good for our industry and trading, we need those links really. £13.7bn is a lot of money, but somehow I think we'd be worse off if we left the EU than we would be if we remained. I'd definitely vote to stay.

[benjii]

Whilst the supra-national legislation is troubling in principle, I often wonder if it has done more good than harm. It means our politicians have to get some useful laws passed (consumer protection, job security, anti-discrimination etc..) rather than wasting their time on populist trivia like fox-hunting.

[buctootim]

I wouldn't be upset if we left the EU. I think it'd be important to carry on being trading partners and strong allies though.

 

In 2008 we paid the EU £13.7 billion for it's services, I bet it has gone up more now due to inflation. £13.7 billion works out at about £37 million. £37,000,000 a day to be part of the EU in 2008! Surely that money could be put to better use here in the UK?

 

But the net contribution is a lot less than that - expected to be c£6.7 billion in 2011-2013 because we get money back in various forms of grants - still a lot of money admittedly.

Edited 3 May, 2010 by buctootim

[dune]

I'd vote to leave.

[buctootim]

I'd vote to leave.

 

Economically we'd be royally ****ed if we voted to leave. Its not for nothing that so many countries are trying to join.

[dune]

Economically we'd be royally ****ed if we voted to leave. Its not for nothing that so many countries are trying to join.

 

In your opinion, that's not what it says in my UKIP welcome pack.

[hypochondriac]

There is a very interesting debate regarding this on another thread and as we seem to have a wide spread of political leanings on here I thought it would be interesting to see the consensus?

 

Like many I have no issues with many aspects of the EU such as trade and freedom of work and movement but feel very uncomfortable with much of the federalist structure and it's unelected nature and my politics are left of centre.

 

If a referendum I think I would vote yes, leave.

 

I feel similar to you. I would have to look at the hard facts to decide if on balance I wanted total withdrawal though. I just don't understand wy we can't have the advantage of trade etc without all the rubbish like laws being passed on our behalf.

[Colinjb]

I personally feel we should trade with them and maintain the alliance with them but not politically integrate ourselves with them. It's gone too far.

 

The politicians that say 'but we're in it now, it's too late!' F**k them. If we the people want it make it bloody happen.

 

And that's the crux of it, it should be about what the people on the whole want, not an individual. We need a referendum on our membership and long term goals for this. The failure of Labour to grant the UK a vote on the Lisbon treaty is to me one of the biggest reasons I want Labour and Gordon out, it's a betrayal that he didn't trust the people of this country to look at the pro's and cons and have their say.

Edited 3 May, 2010 by Colinjb

[buctootim]

In your opinion, that's not what it says in my UKIP welcome pack.

 

The EU has huge import tariffs on many goods not originating from within the EU. Leave the club and our exports become liable to these tarriffs, not to mention a whole raft of licences and paperwork. Since the EU is by far our largest trading partner - we would be royally ****ed if we left.

[dune]

The EU has huge import tariffs on many goods not originating from within the EU. Leave the club and our exports become liable to these tarriffs, not to mention a whole raft of licences and paperwork. Since the EU is by far our largest trading partner - we would be royally ****ed if we left.

 

I've got no objections to a common market trade zone, but it's the political union that i object to. Why is political union necessary?

[Colinjb]

I've got no objections to a common market trade zone, but it's the political union that i object to. Why is political union necessary?

 

+1.

[SOTONS EAST SIDE]

I thought joining "THE COMMON MARKET" as it was then, was to trade your goods at a common fair price to all.But its turned into a Premier league style orginisation where making money, changing the rules to suit some(top teams/country) and personal standing/wealth is the be all and end all and is the norm and sod the expense.

And If your on the outside your lured into trying to get in by the money/prestige you will get and not the cost to your country.

But while your on the outside you can most of the time still look your electorate in the eye while telling the real truth and not lying through your teeth.

MY VOTE GET US OUT!! NOW!!

Edited 3 May, 2010 by SOTONS EAST SIDE

[GenevaSaint]

In your opinion, that's not what it says in my UKIP welcome pack.

 

Well that's hardly a surprise now is it Dune!

 

I'd have to think long and hard about it before making a decision. They are pros and cons for staying in or leaving the EU. Just as there are pro and cons about using the Euro instead of the pound. It would be nice to have some real facts and figures that are not driven by an agenda and xenophobia.

[buctootim]

I've got no objections to a common market trade zone, but it's the political union that i object to. Why is political union necessary?

 

+1.

 

I dont disagree. I liked the Common Market but although I can see some advantages in the EU it has a lot of downside too.

[pedg]

I've got no objections to a common market trade zone, but it's the political union that i object to. Why is political union necessary?

 

But at the moment you can't have one without the (fear) of the other. Should we go to all the other countries in europe and say 'Sorry guys we would like to leave the EU because of our fear of european law makers but can we still have the preferential trading terms, thanks awfully'.

[Thedelldays]

But at the moment you can't have one without the (fear) of the other. Should we go to all the other countries in europe and say 'Sorry guys we would like to leave the EU because of our fear of european law makers but can we still have the preferential trading terms, thanks awfully'.

do you reckon the EU zone has "difficulties" trading with the USA for example..?

[ecuk268]

Both Ford and Nissan have said that they would withdraw from the UK if we leave the EU.

 

We would still need to retain much EU legislation if we wanted to continue to trade with them. As the company I work for exports about 70% of our product to Europe, the last thing we need are trade barriers.

 

Approx 72% of EU legislation comes from the elected Council of Ministers. The not-very-bright leader of UKIP mis-reported this as 72% of UK laws are "forced upon us by the EU".

 

Seeing as how UKIP will only get any influence under a changed voting system, does this mean that their supporters will vote Lib-Dem?

[pedg]

do you reckon the EU zone has "difficulties" trading with the USA for example..?

 

I suspect the paperwork and the tarriffs charged by europe don't help american companies exporting to europe. Obviously it does not stop them but it could be said that their exports to the EU would be greater if they were inside it not outside. Obviously not going to happen but if we went the other way (inside to outside) then its would be a rash claim that it would not affect our exports to the EU.

[buctootim]

do you reckon the EU zone has "difficulties" trading with the USA for example..?

 

The EU and NAFTA (North American Free Trade Area - Canada, US, Mexico) have reciprocal agreements on many areas. That is because both are strong blocs of comparable strength. Anybody who thinks the UK could negotiate similar deals with the EU or NAFTA on its own is very misguided imo.

[Thedelldays]

The EU and NAFTA (North American Free Trade Area - Canada, US, Mexico) have reciprocal agreements on many areas. That is because both are strong blocs of comparable strength. Anybody who thinks the UK could negotiate similar deals with the EU or NAFTA on its own is very misguided imo.

why is it misguided...we are one of the world largest economies...we import fuking everything....

[GenevaSaint]

why is it misguided...we are one of the world largest economies...we import fuking everything....

 

No doubt we do import a shed load of stuff, but an interesting fact from Radio 4 last week, manufacturing in the UK has actually increased since 1997. The things being manufactured may be of no use to joe public, but an intersting fact never the less.

[solentstars]

Economically we'd be royally ****ed if we voted to leave. Its not for nothing that so many countries are trying to join.

 

thats the reality and why we never leave.

[solentstars]

I thought joining "THE COMMON MARKET" as it was then, was to trade your goods at a common fair price to all.But its turned into a Premier league style orginisation where making money, changing the rules to suit some(top teams/country) and personal standing/wealth is the be all and end all and is the norm and sod the expense.

And If your on the outside your lured into trying to get in by the money/prestige you will get and not the cost to your country.

But while your on the outside you can most of the time still look your electorate in the eye while telling the real truth and not lying through your teeth.

MY VOTE GET US OUT!! NOW!!

 

so you want to be like pompey and us to become a championship side then:D

[solentstars]

why is it misguided...we are one of the world largest economies...we import fuking everything....

sorry to tell you i worked for a firm where 70% of our trade was with europe mainly Germany france spain and holland,so i don,t expect the guys working their would be happy to lose their jobs on some fantasy world that we would be better of out.of the eu.

[aintforever]

Switzerland and Norway are not in the EU, are they ****ed then?

[solentstars]

Switzerland and Norway are not in the EU, are they ****ed then?

 

Norway’s relations with the EU are mainly governed by the Agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA). The EEA Agreement is in force since 1.1.1994 and extends the Single Market legislation, with the exception of Agriculture and Fisheries, from the EU Member States to Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. Through the EEA Agreement, Norway also participates, albeit with no voting rights, in a number of EU Agencies and programmes, covering i.a. enterprise, environment, education and research programmes. Norway also, along with its EEA/EFTA partners, contributes financially to social and economic cohesion in the EU/EEA. Norway is as integrated in European policy and economy as any non-member State can be, and the close EU-Norway relations generally run smoothly.

 

Norway furthermore participates in the Schengen/Dublin co-operation as well as Europol and Eurojust. Norway is actively seeking association with EU CFSP/ESDP, participates in EU joint actions such as the EU police mission in Bosnia, and has pledged personnel and equipment to the ESDP Rapid Reaction Force and to the EU Nordic battle group so long as the EU actions are undertaken under a UN mandate. Norway is also considered a valuable partner for the EU on the international stage with frequently shared policy priorities, as e.g. in the area of energy and climate change.

 

Despite two failed attempts by referendum to enter the European Community in 1972 and the European Union in 1994, the question of whether or not Norway should once again apply for EU membership has been regularly raised in the past few years in the national Norwegian policy debate. This, however, is not going to have any practical consequences in the immediate future.

[aintforever]

Norway’s relations with the EU are mainly governed by the Agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA). The EEA Agreement is in force since 1.1.1994 and extends the Single Market legislation, with the exception of Agriculture and Fisheries, from the EU Member States to Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. Through the EEA Agreement, Norway also participates, albeit with no voting rights, in a number of EU Agencies and programmes, covering i.a. enterprise, environment, education and research programmes. Norway also, along with its EEA/EFTA partners, contributes financially to social and economic cohesion in the EU/EEA. Norway is as integrated in European policy and economy as any non-member State can be, and the close EU-Norway relations generally run smoothly.

 

Norway furthermore participates in the Schengen/Dublin co-operation as well as Europol and Eurojust. Norway is actively seeking association with EU CFSP/ESDP, participates in EU joint actions such as the EU police mission in Bosnia, and has pledged personnel and equipment to the ESDP Rapid Reaction Force and to the EU Nordic battle group so long as the EU actions are undertaken under a UN mandate. Norway is also considered a valuable partner for the EU on the international stage with frequently shared policy priorities, as e.g. in the area of energy and climate change.

 

Despite two failed attempts by referendum to enter the European Community in 1972 and the European Union in 1994, the question of whether or not Norway should once again apply for EU membership has been regularly raised in the past few years in the national Norwegian policy debate. This, however, is not going to have any practical consequences in the immediate future.

 

Do Norway pay the EU £13.7 billion for it's services?

[Lord Duckhunter]

The whole European "project" has been one big con job on the British people. The establishment have slowly taken laws from Westminster and given them away to the EU. The fact that the eurosceptic Tory party and UKIP came first and second in the recent European elections tells you how out of touch the establishment is with the ordinary people. If you took away our Celtic cousins and had a vote in England only, I'm convinced the outcome would be a resounding "out".

 

The EU has been great for Ireland and the like, but I fail to see how large multi national companies would stop dealing with the UK if we left. In fact less EU regulation could encourage them to trade a bit more with us.

[View From The Top]

Norway’s relations with the EU are mainly governed by the Agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA). The EEA Agreement is in force since 1.1.1994 and extends the Single Market legislation, with the exception of Agriculture and Fisheries, from the EU Member States to Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein. Through the EEA Agreement, Norway also participates, albeit with no voting rights, in a number of EU Agencies and programmes, covering i.a. enterprise, environment, education and research programmes. Norway also, along with its EEA/EFTA partners, contributes financially to social and economic cohesion in the EU/EEA. Norway is as integrated in European policy and economy as any non-member State can be, and the close EU-Norway relations generally run smoothly.

 

Norway furthermore participates in the Schengen/Dublin co-operation as well as Europol and Eurojust. Norway is actively seeking association with EU CFSP/ESDP, participates in EU joint actions such as the EU police mission in Bosnia, and has pledged personnel and equipment to the ESDP Rapid Reaction Force and to the EU Nordic battle group so long as the EU actions are undertaken under a UN mandate. Norway is also considered a valuable partner for the EU on the international stage with frequently shared policy priorities, as e.g. in the area of energy and climate change.

 

Despite two failed attempts by referendum to enter the European Community in 1972 and the European Union in 1994, the question of whether or not Norway should once again apply for EU membership has been regularly raised in the past few years in the national Norwegian policy debate. This, however, is not going to have any practical consequences in the immediate future.

 

You do understand that this supports the "in Europe, not in the EU" argument don't you?

 

In fact, the Norwegian model is perfect for us.

[SOTONS EAST SIDE]

so you want to be like pompey and us to become a championship side then:D

What the F-ck are you doing comparing us to that shower of s-hit you muppet!!!

[dune]

What the F-ck are you doing comparing us to that shower of s-hit you muppet!!!

 

The only political comparison with Pompey that I can think of is Gordon Browns mismanagement of the economy.

[SOTONS EAST SIDE]

The only political comparison with Pompey that I can think of is Gordon Browns mismanagement of the economy.

Dune these pro-Eu bigots cant see the wood through the tree's.Their argument that we would be f-cked without the EU in a GLOBAL MARKET/GLOBAL TRADE is some what flawed! lol

 

And to you Solentstars the company i work for didnt expand into Europe(to much red tape) they expanded into America, at half what it would of cost in Europe, And got a bigger and better facility than they would of got in Europe!!

Edited 3 May, 2010 by SOTONS EAST SIDE

[dune]

Dune these pro-Eu bigots cant see the wood through the tree's.Their argument that we would be f-cked without the EU in a GLOBAL MARKET/GLOBAL TRADE is some what flawed! lol

 

They are frankly clueless. China doesn't exactly struggle to trade. The EU's political controls are in fact a hindrance to Britains ability to trade with the red tape and policies such as the CAP. Think about it - these policies are not there for the good of the masses, they are there because France wants them there for the simple reason that their country is Unionised and they require such policies to drag everyone else down to their uncompetitive level. The EU is essentially a protectionist racket weighted in favour of Latin/Mediteranian Europe.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

sorry to tell you i worked for a firm where 70% of our trade was with europe mainly Germany france spain and holland,so i don,t expect the guys working their would be happy to lose their jobs on some fantasy world that we would be better of out.of the eu.

 

and they wouldn't want access to our markets. Do you really think that we would stop trading with the EU if we left Euriope. We could make ourselves ultra competitive by doing so.

[scotty]

its interesting how the libdems echoed the labour line on europe during the election campaign; questioned about British entry into the euro Clegg said he would want to put the whole europe question to the country by referendum, should we leave the EU or stay in it, the implication being that if we vote to stay in that will give carte-blanche to any and all further integration. There will be no box to tick saying "should we stay in on our current terms". Slippery c*nts

[dune]

and they wouldn't want access to our markets. Do you really think that we would stop trading with the EU if we left Euriope. We could make ourselves ultra competitive by doing so.

 

I wonder how happy solentstars would be had we completely sold out to the EU and had joined the single currency. Would he be happy for us to be lending money to a country who's credit rating is "junk" at a rock bottom interest rate?

[solentstars]

and they wouldn't want access to our markets. Do you really think that we would stop trading with the EU if we left Euriope. We could make ourselves ultra competitive by doing so.

 

your jokeing right:rolleyes: leaving your biggest market and loseing alot of britsh jobs on a whim and then paying peanut wages to make us ultra competitive in your make believe world.

the eu industrys would have encomies of scale which we could not compete with on the outside and they would still make the rules which we would have to adhere to to sell in the eu market .

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

your jokeing right:rolleyes: leaving your biggest market and loseing alot of britsh jobs on a whim and then paying peanut wages to make us ultra competitive in your make believe world.

the eu industrys would have encomies of scale which we could not compete with on the outside and they would still make the rules which we would have to adhere to to sell in the eu market .

 

I do worry for you Solentstars, who said anything about leaving our biggest market? Do you really think that they will want to turn their back on us? We will still trade with them but would have the flexibility to make ourselves more competitive. Being competitive is not about lowering wages it is about the ludicrous level of red tape that comes out of the whole bloated system.

 

The EU is a good idea very badly executed.

[View From The Top]

The EU is essentially a protectionist racket weighted in favour of Latin/Mediteranian Europe.

 

LOL. Clueless nazi mong.

[View From The Top]

 

The EU is a good idea very badly executed.

 

Perfectly put.

[solentstars]

I do worry for you Solentstars, who said anything about leaving our biggest market? Do you really think that they will want to turn their back on us? We will still trade with them but would have the flexibility to make ourselves more competitive. Being competitive is not about lowering wages it is about the ludicrous level of red tape that comes out of the whole bloated system.

 

The EU is a good idea very badly executed.

sorry i thought you were one of the anti eu dreamers-we have that flexibility now,we have opt outs from the 48 hr week,we are not in the euro so are currency can go up and down.

do you believe we will have all the benefits of the eu club by being like norway who are on the outside but who still have to follow eu rules to trade and have no say in the making of the rules.

[dune]

sorry i thought you were one of the anti eu dreamers-we have that flexibility now,we have opt outs from the 48 hr week,we are not in the euro so are currency can go up and down.

do you believe we will have all the benefits of the eu club by being like norway who are on the outside but who still have to follow eu rules to trade and have no say in the making of the rules.

 

What are the political benefits?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

In your opinion, that's not what it says in my UKIP welcome pack.

 

Well it wouldn't say that now, would it?

[View From The Top]

norway who are on the outside but who still have to follow eu rules to trade and have no say in the making of the rules.

 

Are you being thick on purpose? We'd have to trade with the EU using their rules but we wouldn't have the expense of being in the EU.

 

Sounds just about perfect.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I personally feel we should trade with them and maintain the alliance with them but not politically integrate ourselves with them. It's gone too far.

 

The politicians that say 'but we're in it now, it's too late!' F**k them. If we the people want it make it bloody happen.

 

And that's the crux of it, it should be about what the people on the whole want, not an individual. We need a referendum on our membership and long term goals for this. The failure of Labour to grant the UK a vote on the Lisbon treaty is to me one of the biggest reasons I want Labour and Gordon out, it's a betrayal that he didn't trust the people of this country to look at the pro's and cons and have their say.

 

Fair play and hence part of my disillusionment with Labour.

 

I'll not be voting Tory though.

[dune]

LOL. Clueless nazi mong.

 

A well reasoned response yet again. And to think you "claim" to work in Education.:smt058

Edited 3 May, 2010 by dune

[dune]

Are you being thick on purpose?

 

Pots and Kettles.