‘Expensive success’ or ‘affordable pastime’?

[Joensuu]

[Quick summary for those unwilling to read: Would you rather have a club offering ‘expensive success’, or one providing ‘affordable pastime’?]

 

I’ve been trying to work out why we seem to be so divided as supporters. I have always assumed that we all want the same outcome, and couldn’t fathom why there was so much division.

 

Over the past couple of weeks, some of the threads on here have got me thinking, perhaps we actually don’t all want the same thing. I think we fall into two camps, one want to see the club become more successful, and another who would prefer a football to be more like it was in the 60s, you know, a break at the end of the week, a cheap afternoon out, with beers, and friends.

 

We all know that Sky has fundamentally changed football. Money has bloated the game, it's made it a more expensive pastime. Marketing has opened the game up to a completely different type of fan. Unfortunately, in this post-Sky world, no club can survive on good faith and community spirit alone. Money is needed to fuel the game, and the more successful clubs have refined effective ways of cashing in, both by increasing ticket prices, charging for advertising, and most importantly trying to assert leverage to get their hands on as much of the TV pot of gold as they can. It’s become a dog-eat-dog industry, only the richest seem likely to survive, let alone be successful.

 

In the good old days, the ideal chairman/owner was a retired local business man; a virtually anonymous party, who only really got involved in the club when a new manager was needed. Investment wasn’t the priority, nor was business acumen. However, I fear, times have changed. In this new world, I’d argue that the ideal chairman is a businessman first and foremost. He (or she) focuses on the profit margins, doesn’t get drawn into media debates, and has the objective of ‘success’.

 

Is this ‘success’ really the division in our fan base? What would you prefer, a return to the old days (to cheap tickets, terraces, the odd scuffle after a game, and unfortunately in this post-Sky world seeing the team probably either languishing in league 2, or going out of business altogether), or do you prefer being treated as a consumer, not a fan, watching a businessman lead the team through the leagues, and accept that your pocket will be a lot lighter, but your team surviving, and perhaps even becoming successful?

 

I think football has changed, and a return to the pre-Sky idyll is a pipe dream. I think we are consumers of a company, who are for the first time in their history being managed as if they were in the FTSE 100. I'm not saying that that's what I want, more that that is the reality of the state of the modern game. We also have to accept that the clubs fan base has shifted. The last 15 years have attracted different types of fan to the club, often people willing to spend more on their ticket, more on their merchandise, and demand more from the results. The outcome of this is unfortunately pricing others out of the game.

 

I should also add, that as Saint's fans we've been spoilt. We've tasted 27 years of success, all achieved with luck, skill, and judgement, but not with money. As such, we don't seem to have woken up to this post-Sky world as fast as the fans of other teams have, We still seem to believe we can have our cake and eat it. Unfortunately, IMO, luck alone won't bring success again. If we ever want to return to the top, money, and business acumen are the only way forward.

 

I might be on the wrong track, but for me this might explain why our fanbase seems so divided: we simply have different objectives. So, would you rather have a club offering ‘expensive success’, or one providing ‘affordable pastime’?

[trousers]

Hmmmm....very astute post......and I've tried to come up with an answer but can't! (which perhaps helps explains the 'divisions' even further: If I, as an individual, can't decide what I want then it's a sure fire case that the fan base as a whole can't!)

[Colinjb]

I appreciate that being a few hours away from Southampton makes my view different from potentially many others, but here is my take.

 

I would rather have a club that is an 'expensive success.' I am currently a season ticket holder but have long accepted that I will not be able to sustain this much longer, I will soon (hopefully, in the next year or two) be getting married and start a family. Actually attending games, even now is a financial stretch and as such I would need to use this resource in a less selfish way.

 

I want Saints to be succesful, I want to be able to be proud of my club from afar.... that will be so much easier to do if we start progressing up the leagues again. I have long accepted that I will not be a season ticket holder forever and will soon have to be content with the occasional game here and there.... I want that at as high a level as possible. If it costs me 35 pounds a ticket every two months or so then so be it.

[iansums]

I just want to beat feckin Bournemouth tomorrow!

[Didcot Saint]

I would just like to see my team winning a few games have a few beers and feel proud to be a Saints fan. Not get ripped off with booking fees etc.

What i don't want is an £800-00 Season ticket, surrounded by plastic fans and watching a load of overpaid whinging, diving foreign mercenries.

So that will be the Championship for me then, and an affordable pastime/religion!

[gonzo]

I just want to see Southampton Football Club win games of football. Regardless of what division they happen to be in at the time. Premier League would be ideal, but I just want to see my team win.

 

It's an expensive past-time for me anyway, as I can't afford to get down anywhere near as often as I would like to but I think that would still be the case even if we were in the blue square leagues. It's just that cash is tight for me personally, and when I go the missus and kids want to go as well! (I successfully brainwashed all of them )

[trousers]

I just want to beat feckin Bournemouth tomorrow!

 

Glory hunter!

[Turkish]

Personally i am not bothered about being in the PL, there is no fun in seeing us getting beaten week in week out by Chelsea, Man Utd etc whilst the media knock one out over them destroy us. The best you can hope for is a midtable finish and the priority is simply to stay in the league. The Championship is the league to be in, many clubs of similar size to Saints, 75% of the teams still have something to play for be it making the play offs or staying up going into the last month of the season and not much between most of the teams in the division. I'd take that, the odd promotion here and there but i really have no interest in seeing us losing at home to Chelsea with t*ats ike Ashley Cole lording it over us.

[iansums]

Glory hunter!

 

Just want to avoid severe embarrassment.

 

Personally i am not bothered about being in the PL, there is no fun in seeing us getting beaten week in week out by Chelsea, Man Utd etc whilst the media knock one out over them destroy us. The best you can hope for is a midtable finish and the priority is simply to stay in the league. The Championship is the league to be in, many clubs of similar size to Saints, 75% of the teams still have something to play for be it making the play offs or staying up going into the last month of the season and not much between most of the teams in the division. I'd take that, the odd promotion here and there but i really have no interest in seeing us losing at home to Chelsea with t*ats ike Ashley Cole lording it over us.

 

I tend to agree with this, not sure I want us to be back in the Prem just trying to avoid relegation.

[Joensuu]

So, if we were in the Championship, people would prefer not to win promotion? So we'd aim to finish 8th in the Championship each season then?

[toofarnorth]

I think that is a great post and has got me thinking. I can kid myself into thinking the championship, League 1 is great etc, but the only place I want to see the saints for the long term is the premiership. It frustrates the hell out of me when I see teams such as Bolton, Stoke etc in the Premiership, when what i'm really thinking is that should be us. Yes it may cost more, but I think i'd pay £35 a time for league 1 if you told me we'd have 30,000 there. I think the old scenario of getting to the premiership and being the whipping boys is changing. The premiership will obviously always be dominated by a couple of teams at the top but as the start of this season has shown anyone is beatable. I want Saints to be in the Premiership and if that costs so be it.

[Turkish]

So, if we were in the Championship, people would prefer not to win promotion? So we'd aim to finish 8th in the Championship each season then?

 

Err, no, i said the odd promotion, but i'd rather see us playing Nottingham Forest or Derby a month from the end of the season, trying to get into the play offs, than having to beat Chelsea at home to stay up. The championship is a far more interesting league for fans of the clubs involved than the PL.

[aintforever]

Football has always been run as a business, it's just now there are a few more noughts added on the end. Though football has changed alot it is wrong to suggest it wasn't run as a very successful business in the 70's and 80's.

 

If it's ticket prices we are talking about then I think most Saints fans would be willing to pay a fair wack if we got back in the Prem - even the Championship.

 

There is no reason why you cannot have a successful Prem club and treat supporters as supporters, and treat the club as a club embracing it's history, ex-players, fans and local area and media. It's not and either/or thing.

[stevegrant]

In an ideal world, I guess I'd rather have "affordable success", but as we're not in Germany, we're caught between a rock and a hard place, as you rightly identify.

 

The upper echelons of football will implode at some point - there will come a time when those who have managed their finances well over a sustained period of time will be the ones who eventually rise to the top. It may not happen in the next ten or twenty years, but I am sure it will happen eventually.

 

If we are to be successful, I would rather it came as a result of genuine hard work and being deserving of it, rather than just chucking money at the cause with no real thought process behind it (hello, Manchester City). At the moment, that appears to be the way the club is working - there are some aspects that many (myself included) aren't overly happy with, but we all have to make some sacrifices every now and then. I still firmly believe that this club has the infrastructure and support to organically grow and be successful. It'll feel much more rewarding to keep it that way, IMO.

[doddisalegend]

[Quick summary for those unwilling to read: Would you rather have a club offering ‘expensive success’, or one providing ‘affordable pastime’?]

 

I’ve been trying to work out why we seem to be so divided as supporters. I have always assumed that we all want the same outcome, and couldn’t fathom why there was so much division.

 

Over the past couple of weeks, some of the threads on here have got me thinking, perhaps we actually don’t all want the same thing. I think we fall into two camps, one want to see the club become more successful, and another who would prefer a football to be more like it was in the 60s, you know, a break at the end of the week, a cheap afternoon out, with beers, and friends.

 

We all know that Sky has fundamentally changed football. Money has bloated the game, it's made it a more expensive pastime. Marketing has opened the game up to a completely different type of fan. Unfortunately, in this post-Sky world, no club can survive on good faith and community spirit alone. Money is needed to fuel the game, and the more successful clubs have refined effective ways of cashing in, both by increasing ticket prices, charging for advertising, and most importantly trying to assert leverage to get their hands on as much of the TV pot of gold as they can. It’s become a dog-eat-dog industry, only the richest seem likely to survive, let alone be successful.

 

In the good old days, the ideal chairman/owner was a retired local business man; a virtually anonymous party, who only really got involved in the club when a new manager was needed. Investment wasn’t the priority, nor was business acumen. However, I fear, times have changed. In this new world, I’d argue that the ideal chairman is a businessman first and foremost. He (or she) focuses on the profit margins, doesn’t get drawn into media debates, and has the objective of ‘success’.

 

Is this ‘success’ really the division in our fan base? What would you prefer, a return to the old days (to cheap tickets, terraces, the odd scuffle after a game, and unfortunately in this post-Sky world seeing the team probably either languishing in league 2, or going out of business altogether), or do you prefer being treated as a consumer, not a fan, watching a businessman lead the team through the leagues, and accept that your pocket will be a lot lighter, but your team surviving, and perhaps even becoming successful?

 

I think football has changed, and a return to the pre-Sky idyll is a pipe dream. I think we are consumers of a company, who are for the first time in their history being managed as if they were in the FTSE 100. I'm not saying that that's what I want, more that that is the reality of the state of the modern game. We also have to accept that the clubs fan base has shifted. The last 15 years have attracted different types of fan to the club, often people willing to spend more on their ticket, more on their merchandise, and demand more from the results. The outcome of this is unfortunately pricing others out of the game.

 

I should also add, that as Saint's fans we've been spoilt. We've tasted 27 years of success, all achieved with luck, skill, and judgement, but not with money. As such, we don't seem to have woken up to this post-Sky world as fast as the fans of other teams have, We still seem to believe we can have our cake and eat it. Unfortunately, IMO, luck alone won't bring success again. If we ever want to return to the top, money, and business acumen are the only way forward.

 

I might be on the wrong track, but for me this might explain why our fanbase seems so divided: we simply have different objectives. So, would you rather have a club offering ‘expensive success’, or one providing ‘affordable pastime’?

 

Success? you mean hanging on in the top flight by our finger nails most seasons and for many of those years it was down to Le god that we survived. If success is to be the prems whipping boy I'd rather not bother. I want to go to football with my kids and watch saints win/give a good account of themselves at a price I can afford, I'd be happy to stay in the championship and have a good cup run every year (say semi finals or better). People go to football for a lot of reasons I like the whole matchday experince and I like bonding with my my son over a shared passion.

[Joensuu]

I guess it's not easy for a club to engage with supporters. Many forced attempts will sound contrived. Community development programmes are a good way to go, as is respecting club legends. Obviously, there is a fine line to tred in the latter, paying respect is great, but at what point do the freebies and perks cross the line to being 'taken advantage of', instead of 'paying respect'? (Wasn't one of our former players getting rent-free office space inside the stadium to run their own business (or similar)?)

 

Embracing the local media is a different thing altogether? Sure, offer them a fair chance to behave professionally, but if they double cross you more than once, why not cut them out? Bit like buying rounds, if you notice one of your fellow drinkers is shirking their round, do you carry on and keep buying them more?

[Joensuu]

Success? you mean hanging on in the top flight by our finger nails most seasons and for many of those years it was down to Le god that we survived. If success is to be the prems whipping boy I'd rather not bother. I want to go to football with my kids and watch saints win/give a good account of themselves at a price I can afford, I'd be happy to stay in the championship and have a good cup run every year (say semi finals or better). People go to football for a lot of reasons I like the whole matchday experince and I like bonding with my my son over a shared passion.

 

Success, I guess, is whatever you personally think it is. For a Chelsea fan the bench mark is both dometic and European success; I'm sure most Cherries feel that they are riding on a wave of success right now. For 27 years we clung on, not centre stage, but at the edge of the limelight. Sure, you might be seeking a higher level of success than this, I would love to dream higher than this, but as Steve Grant rightly mentioned, not if it's bought, only if we can develop it organically. For me, I got a lot more out of the matchday experience when we were clinging on in the top division, than in subsequent years, the crowds were bigger, the atmosphere louder, the songs funnier, the sense of joy when you scrapped a last minute home draw against a 'big' team nuch greater, the fact your mates who supported other teams had heard about the result, the fact Match of the Day repeated it. For me, much as I'd love to be able to say that the lower leagues are where you can find 'real' football, regrettably, the top flight was (for me) far, far, more enjoyable.

[Joensuu]

adriansfc - entirely agree. Can't wait to see the whole thing implode. The end of the 'players' with diamond earstuds.

[trousers]

Maybe the best way to guage people's opinion is to ask: "looking at their league status over the last 5 years, which football club would you most like ours to be like?"

 

Top 6 prem side? Man Utd, Chelsea, etc

Mid table prem side? Fulham, Everton, Bolton, etc

Yo-yo prem/championship side: West Brom, Middlesboro, Derby, etc

 

Me? Fulham

Edited 1 October, 2010 by trousers

[doddisalegend]

Maybe the best way to guage people's opinion is to ask: "looking at their league status over the last 5 years, which football club would you most like our to be like?"

 

Top 6 prem side? Man Utd, Chelsea, etc

Mid table prem side? Fulham, Everton, Bolton, etc

Yo-yo prem/championship side: West Brom, Middlesboro, Derby, etc

 

Actually West brom might not be too bad at all. One year of pain followed by a good year over and over. The club doesn't over spend in the PL so stays finicial viable with enough spending money to dominate the championship every other year and those who like being shafted by the likes of chelesa are catered for too every other season.

[Joensuu]

Me: Ideally, Arsenal (low budget, focus on youth, but still mixing it at the very top). But I guess, Fulham would be fine, you know, basically back where we were 6 years ago. I think anything less than Fulham would be a little disappointing for me.

[trousers]

Actually West brom might not be too bad at all. One year of pain followed by a good year over and over. The club doesn't over spend in the PL so stays finicial viable with enough spending money to dominate the championship every other year and those who like being shafted by the likes of chelesa are catered for too every other season.

 

Actually, that's sounding almost ideal!

[SFKA South Woodford]

Maybe the best way to guage people's opinion is to ask: "looking at their league status over the last 5 years, which football club would you most like ours to be like?"

 

Top 6 prem side? Man Utd, Chelsea, etc

Mid table prem side? Fulham, Everton, Bolton, etc

Yo-yo prem/championship side: West Brom, Middlesboro, Derby, etc

 

Me? Fulham

 

Totally agree, winning at the skates on the last day of the season to stay up, and seeing the looks on all their faces would be f*cking brilliant!

Oh, and getting to the Uefa cup final wouldn't be too bad either!

[lordswoodsaints]

Win and succeed at all costs..... Buy your way up the leagues IMO.

[Turkish]

Me: Ideally, Arsenal (low budget, focus on youth, but still mixing it at the very top). But I guess, Fulham would be fine, you know, basically back where we were 6 years ago. I think anything less than Fulham would be a little disappointing for me.

 

I agree with this. Arsenal are a model club. A club with a bit of class about them that play attractive football, great youth policy with a real focus on developing young players and dont sacrifice this policy to chase trophies. Dont spend stupid amounts of money on transfer fees and wages but still mixing it with top clubs at home and in Europe.

[JRM]

Fair point on Arsenal, but I think Germany has to be the ideal set up to aim for, most grounds, including "new stadia" have large standing ends which usually have very cheap affordable prices. I've been to several German league games and the atmosphere is usually top notch, great beer and sausages as well. They have kept their match going culture alive whereas in England with the exception of a few clubs vocal support is dying. There is no way I would go to away games regularly in the premiership unless prices came down, but as an interesting example there is still an element of supply and demand, I went to Fulham v Hull last year for £5, Blackburn charged £10 for tickets for their home game v Fulham couple of weeks ago, and Wigan charge £15 for a lot of games, which makes a mockery of the crazy prices that we now pay for league one football, i mean £23 for MK Dons away is a joke.

[Weston Saint]

For me the first thing I want from paying to watch Saints is an entertaining game. Better if both sides are entertaining but I will settle for just Saints.

 

After that I want meaningful wins. Not battering some useless team into submission (as enjoyable as that might be) but to say we have come out on top against a decent team.

 

Next I want an atmosphere so big crowds filling the ground is a necessary addition

 

Price has to be a consideration for all of the above. It has to be affordable but not necessarily inexpensive. I would be happy to be the highest ticket price club in the league (but only just) if I was getting value for money and the real chance of moving up a league to compete at the next level.

 

I want success but not at any cost. Let’s just say reassuringly expensive success. A sort of M&S rather than a Harrods or Tesco

[The Cat]

I want us to be by far the greatest team the world has ever seen.

 

Agree with a lot of the comments, football for me is definitely not about throwing ridiculous amounts of money at a team and buying success. I would be more than a little uncomfortable being a Man City fan right now. It must be very strange for their average fan who has followed them through the lower leagues to now see them paying players up to £200,000 a week.

 

Would be nice to have a few european games at some point though, as for me going to Bucharest was definitely a big highlight of following Saints.

 

I guess the ideal way to success is a couple of years in the Championship followed by a bit of yo-yoing up and down from the Premiership, before establishing ourselves as a mid table Prem team at which time a tactically astute manager (Paul Wotton) brings through a golden generation of players from the Academy with whom we romp our way to Premiership and Champions League glory.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Football has always been run as a business, it's just now there are a few more noughts added on the end. Though football has changed alot it is wrong to suggest it wasn't run as a very successful business in the 70's and 80's.

 

If it's ticket prices we are talking about then I think most Saints fans would be willing to pay a fair wack if we got back in the Prem - even the Championship.

 

There is no reason why you cannot have a successful Prem club and treat supporters as supporters, and treat the club as a club embracing it's history, ex-players, fans and local area and media. It's not and either/or thing.

 

Really? Few have been. Go back 40 years most were keeping prices rock bottom, paying wages that maybe were 2 or 3 times a decent wage paid to a working man, and making a profit to distribute to "shareholders" was against the rules. Since then it's been a progressive throwing of money at players paid huge multples of the average wage, with clubs hugely in debt, income just about covering the interest payments. Neither period is what I'd describe as "clubs being run as businesses".

[Clifford Nelson]

It's interesting to see so many feeling that the PL is not the be all and end all. I share that feeling and I don't want to see Saints debt laden from desperately trying to hang in there, run by a bunch of dishonest pretend tycoons. If that means competing in the CCC, so be it.

 

But there is still that Roy of the Rovers hope that we somehow can show the b*stards without becoming like them. Maybe my mistaken belief that there is still some fairness to be had somewhere for hard working and honest people. My experience tells me that it isn't so, but could I stare at myself in the shaving mirror and say "I don't care"? No chance, I will dream on.

[hypochondriac]

I think you are wrong that people have unrealistic expectations. Everyone knows that in the post Sky world we can't return to how football used to be. All I want is something a bit like Norwich, to feel that the club considers its supporters as one of the most important aspects of a club and to adjust things like price and the 'matchday experience' accordingly. At the moment I think we are being exploited slightly and I don't want us to become like Chelsea, even if we get a similar level of success. Knowing that the club listens to supporters is just as important as any success for me.

[ooh it's a corner]

For me it's not about success - how can it be, I only started going in 1980 and the only thing we have won since then is the JPT final.

 

As for my match day experience today, it is made all the more enjoyable by the pre-match beers with friends and family. Without the social element of football, I'm not sure I would go. The product is very hit or miss from an entertainment perspective and going on your own to football is a fairly lonely experience.

 

I think it is much more fun starting a season as favourites and winning more games than you lose, so right now I would take this 3rd tier offering, with its 3rd tier pricing, over the PL.

 

However, if we were challenging for honours and playing in Europe every other week, I would sooner see that.

 

I can remember going to see Saints vs Chelsea as an opening day fixture, just as the money had started to roll in and Chelsea had Gianluca Vialli playing for them, and I can remember thinking how great it was to be going to see one of Europe's top footballers play. Naturally that experience soon faded, but I would sooner be watching Lionel Messi play against Southampton this afternoon than some plonker from Bmth.

 

So, if it's choices, my heart says expensive success, but my head would say affordable pastime.

[Dalek2003]

I want us to go back to leagues called Division 1, 2, 3 & 4

I want us to go back to 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw.

I want us to go back to turning up at the turnstiles and paying cash on the day to get in the ground.

I want us to go back to terraces behind each goal, one for away supporters an the other for home.

I want to see the return of serious banter and heartily sung club songs

I want to see footballers playing football on muddy pitches or those laden with snow and orange football.

I want to smell the waft of smoke from rollies, of black and white programmes and number scoreboards.

I want to see hard crunching tackle and footballers picking themselves up after receiving the magic spongue.

I want to see the return of the magic of the FA Cup...the excitement of the early rounds in january.

I want to see woollen football scarves.

I want to see wisened old men in the stands pouring soup from tartan flasks at half time

But most of all I want the return of the rawness of football its authenticity, a game for the ordinary man.

Today the game has lost much of its charater and has been replaced by a sterile plastic.

[Turkish]

I want us to go back to leagues called Division 1, 2, 3 & 4

I want us to go back to 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw.

I want us to go back to turning up at the turnstiles and paying cash on the day to get in the ground.

I want us to go back to terraces behind each goal, one for away supporters an the other for home.

I want to see the return of serious banter and heartily sung club songs

I want to see footballers playing football on muddy pitches or those laden with snow and orange football.

I want to smell the waft of smoke from rollies, of black and white programmes and number scoreboards.

I want to see hard crunching tackle and footballers picking themselves up after receiving the magic spongue.

I want to see the return of the magic of the FA Cup...the excitement of the early rounds in january.

I want to see woollen football scarves.

I want to see wisened old men in the stands pouring soup from tartan flasks at half time

But most of all I want the return of the rawness of football its authenticity, a game for the ordinary man.

Today the game has lost much of its charater and has been replaced by a sterile plastic.

 

spot on mate, apart from 2 points for a win.

[opthomps]

From a personal viewpoint I want to see Saints on TV, which means getting to the top flight.

However I don't want us to do a Man City. It would be beneficial long term to run the club as a business with income matching expenditure.

 

With success of course comes the pressure that might well see us struggle in the prem, but the ride to the top would be enjoyable for everyone. I would love to see a Southampton side promoted, as so far in my life its never happened. Getting to the FA cup final was my only highlight that wasn't narrowly avoiding relegation. I appreciate that it's difficult to justify the price hike's and the typical fan now, is not the same as the typical fan 15 years ago.

[AussieDog]

I want us to be a successful side that contains some players who have "worked their way through the ranks", and to be a club that can pay its way without running the risk of going bust again. I'd love it to be the Premiership, but would settle for being a yo-yo side like west brom......maybe an occasional cup final, or hope for a good year in the premiership and qualifying for europe. I want the club to retain it's identity. I would get no satisfaction whatsoever out of being a man city or chelsea supporter.

I have a feeling that by the time we get back to the top English division, that either a few more clubs will have imploded, or that the "elite" clubs will have formed their own european league (at least that would give us a chance!)

[rshephard3]

My mate and I were recently discussing whether the forum had taken a massive nose dive the past few months and become a home for just the most whingey extreme fans who'd rather talk about who managers sleep with, what beer players like etc rather than actual football. This thread is why I use the forum, what a brilliant OP! Pretty much sure it sums up what I have been weighing up in my mind for many years now, whether I wanted football to be where it was at when I went to my first ever game, or whether I like the whole industry shifting in the manner it has over the past 15 years. The part about being left behind as a fan base because of 27 years of success based on skill is particularly interesting, I'm just interested in each and every post on this thread! FWIW I hugely miss playing the so called big boys. This is not due to any sort of glory hunting (I do support saints afterall!) but just seeing the Dell or SMS full, intimidating Man Utd, Spuds etc etc is an unbeatable feeling for me as a fan. That said I will always pay whatever it takes to watch saints whether playing top teams or Eastleigh, football has got me, as it has many on here.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Don't care which method - just want at least top 8 Championship side that wins more games at home than loses. And consistency of a decent manager.

[Joensuu]

Thank you all for the replies, they are really thought provoking. It's good to see what other people would ideally like to see in the club's future.

 

Do people think we can get back to the top of the Championship, or higher, without investment, or solid business strategy? I think returning to our previous (rather amateur?) attempts at running a football club, would only see us fall further through the leagues, unless, of course, we got luckily and found a manager capable of consolidating a team on little money (c.f. Lambert at Norwich). If the Championship is our aim (or if we are hoping for a top flight return), I think that the management need to focus on running the club as a business.

 

Unfortunately, I feel this will mean that we have to accept things such as, higher ticket prices, booking fees, temporary removal of instalment plans to prevent people cheating the system, reduction in perks to ex-players, car parking fees, experiments to raise revenue via controlling IPR of match day photos etc. I agree, some of these seem short sighted, but when they fail, our current management have shown that they will reverse their decisions. I also agree that all of these could have been communicated far, far, more effectively.

 

Desirable as it seems, I think if we want to return through the leagues, we will unfortunately have to put aside notions of the 'affordable pastime'.

 

Thank you Murdoch

[david in sweden]

Nice post..I think it depends on a number of factors.

The mindset of the FANS ...and the BOARD...and a definition of SUCCESS.

 

Apart from the " blip" of relegation in the mid 1970's. Most older fans would say that the period from 1960 -2000 was " fairly successful," given that Saints later had concurrent 27 seasons in the top flight. (albeit mostly in the bottom half of the division) but during that time our BOARD (mostly made up of your retired businessmen / well-meaning senior figures) seemed content with that at the time , and not even Lawrie Mac's successful years were enough to tip the balance towards a new stadium, which came much later.

It seems that for many clubs (regardless of their status) avoiding relegation can be defined as success, whereas I don't believe any of our previous chairman ..(going back 50 years )..would have sacked AP for poor performance. I consider that with the -10 false start last season ..the final result was nothing short of a miracle ..even without promotion.

 

As everyone else, I am glad that the late-lamented Marcus Liebherr bought up our bankrupted club, and whether or not Nicola Cortese made the right decision over AP... will be revealed after game 46 in May next year.

Any millionaire buying up a failing club has many things to consider apart from the economy of running the club. Primarily the fan base and the catchment area for fans. At the end of the days it's tickets sold that defines success, but few clubs will " succeed "

if they can only play before 10,000 crowds as many CCC clubs do.

 

Saints (restricted to the 15,000 seater Dell) were never going to become " bigger" but the building of SMS gave opportunity for another 10 -15,000 fans to " walk-up " on match days. I was present at The Dell when the old record was still in place. 31,044 "sardines "... STANDING for a home game v. Man Utd..8th October 1969 ...almost 41 years ago. Now that many can sit in "relative comfort" on match days.

As for the football. My first game was over 50 years ago and it was when Saints werei n Div.3 SOUTH (as it then then called)..not such a bad idea either. Better for the environment and easier for fans to travel to Charlton than Carlisle.

 

Being more philosophical after all that time, I enjoyed good football..and there was a lot at the Dell..and anything other than that...(a good Cup run, or the "sniff" of promotion) ..was a bonus. Do I lack ambition for Saints ..?

I don't think so... but I'd enjoy a good game of football in L1 rather than a dour 0-0 draw in Prem. or worse.. a 0-6 defeat by Chelsea.

Edited 4 October, 2010 by david in sweden