NickG Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 For years I doubted but never really stopped to consider - I have recently and feel quite good that I can be honest with myself and say I don't believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 No he doesn't. End of debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I'll tell you when I'm dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 No, can I lock the thread now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombletomble Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 No he doesn't. End of debate? You beat me to it. This thread can be closed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truesaint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Yes! Just thought id get that in before you close the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Yeah, there's no god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 But.... what came before something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Impossible to say either way. B*gger all evidence to support either argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I've always been pretty sceptical tbh, but have a read through "the goldilocks enigma" by paul davies, then consider the sheer, overwhelming mathematical improbability of us existing at all unless it had been planned that way. The figures are jawdropping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombletomble Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Impossible to say either way. B*gger all evidence to support either argument. Have you heard of the Russell's teapot analogy? Th fact there isn't any evidence for god doesn't mean we need to entertain the idea that he might exist when all logic points to it be rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 But.... what came before something? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 For years I doubted but never really stopped to consider - I have recently and feel quite good that I can be honest with myself and say I don't believe. No such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Jonny Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 No. But there is Q....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombletomble Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Another point. If he did exist. Why did it take him well over 100,000 years of human history before he decided to get involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Bertrand Russell's parable of the celestial teapot simplifies thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 (edited) Have you heard of the Russell's teapot analogy? Th fact there isn't any evidence for god doesn't mean we need to entertain the idea that he might exist when all logic points to it be rubbish. I'm refering to God as in a higher being or creative, intelligent entity. I don't believe he created the world in 7 days etc. I'm open to the suggestion of a God, agnostic if you will. However I think to say definitively it can't exist is pretty ignorant. The 'logic' behind it being that there has got to be a one in a trillion chance of the universe existing as it does. I think it's highly unlikely that all this "just happened", it's more likely there is something intelligent behind it all. Put simply, I'm open to the concept of a 'God', but I don't believe in religion. Edited 19 May, 2011 by Lighthouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Have you heard of the Russell's teapot analogy? Th fact there isn't any evidence for god doesn't mean we need to entertain the idea that he might exist when all logic points to it be rubbish. Bertrand Russell's parable of the celestial teapot simplifies thinking. sorry didn't see yours when writing mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Russell's original text In an article titled "Is There a God?" commissioned, but never published, by Illustrated magazine in 1952, Russell wrote: Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faz Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I know a dyslexic, agnostic insomniac who lies awake at night wondering if there's a dog......... Always worth trotting out on threads like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamsaint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 there are interesting ideas around concerning conciousness. "punk science" is by mManjir Samanta Laughton is a really good read for those with an interest in this stuff, and an open mind. It certainly shows how science and some kinds of "belief" might co exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Which god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kirkup Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins explains it all - plus all religions basically have the same basis and parables which stem from the visitation to Earth by extra terrestrials. fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 No. But the supernatural does IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 As a rule I find the people who believe in God are more contented that those that do not. Despite having a lot of questions I think it is more likely that there is a God than there is not. Life is just too much of a miracle to be explained by science. The big conundrum for me has always been being accepted into Heaven which is a wonderful place but how can it be so wonderful if so many of the people that I know are not allowed in. Put simply I would not really know anyone there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 You can never disprove God. You can however pretty much disprove all of the scriptures claiming to represent God as illogical and factually incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 You can never disprove God. You can however pretty much disprove all of the scriptures claiming to represent God as illogical and factually incorrect. So how would you go about disproving the existance of Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 If your name is essru and your god is Jobs then yes... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/19/fanboi_brain_study/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 So, the arguement against the fact that there is no god is that the creation of life and the universe is far far too coincidental to not have been created by some intelligent lifeform ?? So, if it was created by something intelligent ? What the f*ck has he been doing since he created this marvellous thing billions of years ago ?? Jeremy Kyle ?? Inbetweeners boxed set ?? I personally do not believe in god, yes, I have had the odd moment when I have wished for something more, to perhaps change things or come in and provide some sort of devine intervention, but the truth is there isn't, the truth is if I jump off a building no matter how many years of praying will stop me hitting the pavement. We were created by a sequence of fluke occurances, and chances are there is something else out there that was equally created under similar circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 So how would you go about disproving the existance of Jesus? Jesus may have existed, but was he actually the son of god ?? And did he actually walk on water ?? Doubtful. Do we however, as humans have the ability to take a story and as it is passed on tweak it ?? Sensationalise it ? Yes. And the further this story goes it becomes the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 So how would you go about disproving the existance of Jesus? I believe Jesus to have been a real person, doesn't mean the stories surrounding him are correct or that he is the son of God. The Bible is extremely contradictory. In many places it says one thing and it says another in another place, yet it all claims to be the words of an omniscient and omnipotent God. If this were to be true, there would be no contradiction within the Bible. And if someone argues back, but it isn't the actual word of God, it's Gods word as interpreted by man, then it has been changed and it still has contradictions making it illogical on 2 accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey-deacons-left-nut Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 The 'logic' behind it being that there has got to be a one in a trillion chance of the universe existing as it does. I think it's highly unlikely that all this "just happened", it's more likely there is something intelligent behind it all. . I don't think you have a a good enough grasp on physics to understand why that statement you made is incorrect. The basic crux is, that it doesn't matter how small the odds are, the fact is that the creation of the universe CAN happen. The fact that we are sat here talking about it is an effect of that. Time/gravity/matter etc did not exist before the big bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint lard Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 If he does exist he does'nt seem to like me much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 In a century's time people will look back at today's religions and laugh their b*ll*cks off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 19 May, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 May, 2011 So, the arguement against the fact that there is no god is that the creation of life and the universe is far far too coincidental to not have been created by some intelligent lifeform ?? . and what are the chances of that intelligent lifeform just being created without a god to create the god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 If he does exist he does'nt seem to like me much. Ever wondered why?...just asking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I don't think you have a a good enough grasp on physics to understand why that statement you made is incorrect. The basic crux is, that it doesn't matter how small the odds are, the fact is that the creation of the universe CAN happen. The fact that we are sat here talking about it is an effect of that. Time/gravity/matter etc did not exist before the big bang. Firstly it is not incorrect. It really is phenomenally unlikely that the universe 'just happened'. I never said that couldn't happen, only that it is highly unlikely. My personal belief is that there is an intelligent creative force behind it all. It's as valid an oppinion as any other. Secondly, nobody has a good enough grasp of physics to even come close to answering the biggest questions in the universe. Yes we know about the big bang, etc. but there is so much more that we just don't know. The fact that we are here does not prove anything. We have a vague idea about how we are here, that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Firstly it is not incorrect. It really is phenomenally unlikely that the universe 'just happened'. I never said that couldn't happen, only that it is highly unlikely. My personal belief is that there is an intelligent creative force behind it all. It's as valid an oppinion as any other. Secondly, nobody has a good enough grasp of physics to even come close to answering the biggest questions in the universe. Yes we know about the big bang, etc. but there is so much more that we just don't know. The fact that we are here does not prove anything. We have a vague idea about how we are here, that's about it. There is a hell of a lot of evidence for sciences current theories and none for a God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Oh and just because we can't have all the answers right now it doesn't mean we have to jump to an illogical one. God 'existing' to create the universe comes up with exactly the same problems you say the current theories have with the universe just 'existing'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 As Russell rightly pointed out the burden of proof should be on those that say he exists and not those who say he doesn't. Is there any proof? No, because apparently it's all about belief. Have to say I think we're a little too tolerant of religion, and we're still too polite when meeting a god botherer to say "well, that's just a load of rubbish". I think the idea of a supreme being is an interesting concept with nothing so far to back it up - I think the myths ascribed to various "gods" are dangerous and at best encourage lazy thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 There is a hell of a lot of evidence for sciences current theories and none for a God. Wooooah, hang on... I'm not against any of science's theories. I am very scientifically and logically minded in general. I know we can explain a heck of a lot through our current understanding of the universe, but there is a sh*t load of stuff we do not yet know. It's like when the Police say 50% of domestic violence goes unreported. How do they know? You do not know what you do not know (Sorry, I know that sounds a bit Donald Rumsfeld). I know there is very little evidence of a God, but that doesn't mean there can't be one (I'm talking about a 'higher being' here, not a religious entity). I agree the burden of proof should be on the hypothesiser, but saying "there isn't a God" is as much a hypothesis as saying there is. If I told you there was a coin in my pocket, which of these would you say was true: a) There is definitely a coin in my pocket because I said so. b) There definitely is not a coin in my pocket because you have no evidence to suggest there is. Most religion falls into category A, whereas atheism falls into category B. I don't see how either of these can be correct, so it has to be another option: c) It is possible there could be a coin in my pocket. You cannot say either way. If there is, you don't know if it's a 10p, 50p etc. If may turn out that it's not actually a coin at all, but a button or a small stone. Now my brain hurts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint-scooby Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 Its a belief, you either believe or not, but if you dont believe, you will burn in hell, which is also another belief. So I guess read what want, say what you think. If there is a God surley there would be only one, the one that created everything, and not 100's of other religions that cause trouble at dinner parties.. Ps anyone want to buy my Sons PS3 ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 No, the burden of proof is on those who say he exists totally and 100% so. It's like if I say I had a tennis ball in my hand behind my back and I said to you 'I have a tennis ball in my hand behind my back' and you said 'Prove it' and I said 'No, you prove I don't'. See what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Trubble Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 As I was once asked: "If you were brainwashed, would you have any idea?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 No, the burden of proof is on those who say he exists totally and 100% so. It's like if I say I had a tennis ball in my hand behind my back and I said to you 'I have a tennis ball in my hand behind my back' and you said 'Prove it' and I said 'No, you prove I don't'. See what I mean? I agree. That is half of my POV. However I think people who say he/she/it 100% doesn't exist are equally at fault. I don't have a problem with belief systems. If people do or do not believe in God is up to them, but you cannot know either way. Regarding your tennis ball scenario; I would have to admit that it's possible you have a tennis ball behind your back, but I don't have any evidence to prove it either way. 500 years ago we had no knowledge of dark matter, antineutrinos or Bruce Forsyth but it doesn't mean they weren't there. As I was once asked: "If you were brainwashed, would you have any idea?" I'd say the answer to that lies in the ability to question your beliefs. People who I'd say have been brainwashed (Islamists, EDL, Pompey fans) clearly have no concept of what they're doing is just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I don't think you have a a good enough grasp on physics to understand why that statement you made is incorrect. The basic crux is, that it doesn't matter how small the odds are, the fact is that the creation of the universe CAN happen. The fact that we are sat here talking about it is an effect of that. Time/gravity/matter etc did not exist before the big bang. Science changes God does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey-deacons-left-nut Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 My personal belief is that there is an intelligent creative force behind it all. It's as valid an oppinion as any other. No, it's not valid at all, it's just an opinion that has no fact behind it at all. You really don't understamd this at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 No, it's not valid at all, it's just an opinion that has no fact behind it at all. You really don't understamd this at all. So you're saying that nothing can possibly be true unless it can be explained by mankind's extremely limited understanding of the universe? And my 'fact' behind this is the alternative being a trillion to 1 shot that the universe "just happened". I think you're the one who doesn't understand this (as well as being needlessly patronising). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 For years I doubted but never really stopped to consider - I have recently and feel quite good that I can be honest with myself and say I don't believe. Hmmm. Penchant for data. Opens a thread with this post. OMG we have a celebrity Saints fan who posts on here. You're Stephen Hawking aren't you? Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 19 May, 2011 Share Posted 19 May, 2011 I still maintain that just because we don't understand something, it doesn't mean we have to jump to a massive conclusion because science will eventually bring the answer. And to whoever said 'God doesn't change', God changes all the time. How many revisions of the Bible has there been? How many religions are there? How many religions no longer exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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