Saintandy666 Posted 14 November, 2011 Share Posted 14 November, 2011 What about positive discrimination? Where do you stand on that? Haringey council used to advertise jobs and then put "we particularly welcome applications from the black / lesbian, transgender, disabled communities, basically anyone who wasn't a white male. Postive discrimination is something I am vehemently against. I believe it solves nothing, as it treats the symptoms and not the cause. We want the best people possible in jobs, and it is patronising to minorities/females to suggest they can't get there on their own accord. What we need to do is to solve the issues of why there aren't enough females/minorities in certain jobs compared to the percentage they make up in the population. I say the main issue is poverty and education, but it's a complex issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 15 November, 2011 What we need to do is to solve the issues of why there aren't enough females/minorities in certain jobs. It should just be accepted that that is how it currently is and we should allow free market capitalism to organically grow. All this control and interference has been the ruin of this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 It should just be accepted that that is how it currently is and we should allow free market capitalism to organically grow. All this control and interference has been the ruin of this country. I think Capitalism is the best system we have, but all systems need rules and regulations and some interference to make it fair. If we want true meritocracy, we have to have equality of opportunity... which is something capitalism does not provide if it is allowed to become rampant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 15 November, 2011 I think Capitalism is the best system we have, but all systems need rules and regulations and some interference to make it fair. If we want true meritocracy, we have to have equality of opportunity... which is something capitalism does not provide if it is allowed to become rampant. Rubbish. If a business wants to employ a white male and another white male and another and another that should be for them to decide, not for some idealistic Liberal Elitist. We are losing our competitive edge with all the red tape of the nanny state and that needs to change if we are to rise again as a country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Rubbish. If a business wants to employ a white male and another white male and another and another that should be for them to decide, not for some idealistic Liberal Elitist. We are losing our competitive edge with all the red tape of the nanny state and that needs to change if we are to rise again as a country. Ermmm.... that's pretty much what I just said, minus the again ridiculous usage of the phrase 'Liberal Elitist'. I still don't think you understand what Liberalism is. I said that they should be able to employ the best person for the job, and if that is white males, fine, but if it is a black female then also fine. What I am saying is, there are reasons why white males always win at the moment, that positive discrimination WON'T solve. We need better education and treatment of poverty that many ethnic minorities live through... to help even the balance. Not by forcing people to hire certain staff, but by giving everyone the chance to be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Ermmm.... that's pretty much what I just said, minus the again ridiculous usage of the phrase 'Liberal Elitist'. I still don't think you understand what Liberalism is. I said that they should be able to employ the best person for the job, and if that is white males, fine, but if it is a black female then also fine. What I am saying is, there are reasons why white males always win at the moment, that positive discrimination WON'T solve. We need better education and treatment of poverty that many ethnic minorities live through... to help even the balance. Not by forcing people to hire certain staff, but by giving everyone the chance to be competitive. Communism doesn't work Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Rubbish. If a business wants to employ a white male and another white male and another and another that should be for them to decide, not for some idealistic Liberal Elitist. We are losing our competitive edge with all the red tape of the nanny state and that needs to change if we are to rise again as a country. By that token if a company wants to employ an immigrant, an immigrant and another immigrant they should be allowed to, a free labour market would do away with illegal immigration over night. In your wonderful unfettered free market capitalist society the logic is that that the labour market must be free and there would no barriers to immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 15 November, 2011 By that token if a company wants to employ an immigrant, an immigrant and another immigrant they should be allowed to, a free labour market would do away with illegal immigration over night. In your wonderful unfettered free market capitalist society the logic is that that the labour market must be free and there would no barriers to immigration. I'm talking about a free market within the UK, not allowing even more foreigners in than Labour swamped us with. There aren't enough jobs for our own people FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 I'm talking about a free market within the UK, not allowing even more foreigners in than Labour swamped us with. There aren't enough jobs for our own people FFS. So no exports then ! In a totally free market there is no them and us just me me me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 15 November, 2011 So no exports then ! In a totally free market there is no them and us just me me me Of course we'd have exports, i'm just saying that we clearly couldn't allow every foreigners who wanted to come here to roll up on our shores. That said if we stopped providing benefits for foreigners we wouldn't attract so many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Communism doesn't work Andy. You clearly didn't read my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Of course we'd have exports, i'm just saying that we clearly couldn't allow every foreigners who wanted to come here to roll up on our shores. That said if we stopped providing benefits for foreigners we wouldn't attract so many. So you are not really for a free market then, and there is the rub, free marketeers do not really want a free market but one that is controlled to suit long standing vested interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 So you are not really for a free market then, and there is the rub, free marketeers do not really want a free market but one that is controlled to suit long standing vested interests. Now isolationism is something that doesn't work in capitalism! Look where it got America in the 20's. Mercantilism died out in the 18th century for a reason. It doesn't work in a globalised system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNorthernSaints Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Reading the posts on here it appears that if you are against racism and extreme right wing groups such as the EDL then you must be from a white middle class background and have never lived in a council estate???? Now i would expect that type of rubbish from our resident racist and white power crazy poster dunce but it is a bit sad so many others have joined in with the racism on here. How many of you have been victims of racist attacks? discriminations, being stopped by police driving? had your home petrol bombed? been verbally abused in public when out non white partners/friends/family? Anyone who thinks the EDL is not racist really is beyond help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronskisaint Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 So you are not really for a free market then, and there is the rub, free marketeers do not really want a free market but one that is controlled to suit long standing vested interests. This...it's called protectionism and polarises the countries (and by logical default the companies therein) to the degree that foreign investment moves out and their own products are similarly vetoed on the export market - we are then deprived of the opportunity of employing the people who may be best to advance our innovation and output and the markets to sell to. For all the jingoistic waffle produced by Dune's icons there was a genuine purpose in trying to create a 'common market' (remember the phrase?). It was originally conceived to try and facilitate free movement of trade and labour within a geographically close community. The Euro common currency was designed to make this more workable. The 'Empire' and Commonwealth business model had been dying slowly for a century and was far too unwieldy and diverse to control without the army to quell unrest and communications have improved so radically that all countries have the facility to sell or buy their goods wherever they chose to so had no political, geographical or financial reason to stay with a small nation who once had a powerful army and navy...although there has never been any reason that the UK could or should not continue to trade with any existing or new trading nation...the idea of a 'common market' was far from flawed in it's conceptual thinking. The execution has been another story...it would take a P*mpey saga sized thread to talk that one through but it's a similar story to Communism or, for that matter, Capitalism - both work far better in theory than in practise...it's just that Capitalism is the sitting tenant and by it's very ideology is not going to move over for a fairer system...but has had to make a mass of concessions as education and communication improves. The capitalist of a century ago would view the current incarnation as some kind of wishy-washy liberal and Cameron as a raving Bolshevik so the tide is inexorably turning. The current banks induced chaos will do more to further the cause of a socialist based system than years of Tory rhetoric. Longer than I intended, sorry, but insular protectionism is so narrow in thought that I felt perspective was needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 This...it's called protectionism and polarises the countries (and by logical default the companies therein) to the degree that foreign investment moves out and their own products are similarly vetoed on the export market - we are then deprived of the opportunity of employing the people who may be best to advance our innovation and output and the markets to sell to. For all the jingoistic waffle produced by Dune's icons there was a genuine purpose in trying to create a 'common market' (remember the phrase?). It was originally conceived to try and facilitate free movement of trade and labour within a geographically close community. The Euro common currency was designed to make this more workable. The 'Empire' and Commonwealth business model had been dying slowly for a century and was far too unwieldy and diverse to control without the army to quell unrest and communications have improved so radically that all countries have the facility to sell or buy their goods wherever they chose to so had no political, geographical or financial reason to stay with a small nation who once had a powerful army and navy...although there has never been any reason that the UK could or should not continue to trade with any existing or new trading nation...the idea of a 'common market' was far from flawed in it's conceptual thinking. The execution has been another story...it would take a P*mpey saga sized thread to talk that one through but it's a similar story to Communism or, for that matter, Capitalism - both work far better in theory than in practise...it's just that Capitalism is the sitting tenant and by it's very ideology is not going to move over for a fairer system...but has had to make a mass of concessions as education and communication improves. The capitalist of a century ago would view the current incarnation as some kind of wishy-washy liberal and Cameron as a raving Bolshevik so the tide is inexorably turning. The current banks induced chaos will do more to further the cause of a socialist based system than years of Tory rhetoric. Longer than I intended, sorry, but insular protectionism is so narrow in thought that I felt perspective was needed Thank you for taking the time to explain my point so well. Your comments on the European experiment are very valid; it is not the strategy that is wrong but the delivery. A delivery that has been corrupted by vested national, corporate and selfish individual interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 15 November, 2011 How many of you have been victims of racist attacks? discriminations, being stopped by police driving? had your home petrol bombed? been verbally abused in public when out non white partners/friends/family? Have you Andrew? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNorthernSaints Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Have you Andrew? I have had plenty of dealings with racists bnp/nf/edl etc over the years dune including being with friends/family/partners while they have been verbally abused/attacked/spat at etc had there homes damaged, forced to move out of areas, find different employment, courses etc due to their race. I have through work seen victims of racist attacks on a regular basis. The type of racist bully boys such as the EDL are all very brave and threatening when in groups but in my experience not so when on their own. It's very sad that Saints appear to have some of thier followers as this club has no history or reputation of racist supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 (edited) Have you Andrew? I think incidents like this show that racism is well and truely alive only in the recent past - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15735026 Though thankfully, it is less prevalent than it used to be. Edited 15 November, 2011 by Saintandy666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 15 November, 2011 I have had plenty of dealings with racists bnp/nf/edl etc over the years dune including being with friends/family/partners while they have been verbally abused/attacked/spat at etc had there homes damaged, forced to move out of areas, find different employment, courses etc due to their race. I have through work seen victims of racist attacks on a regular basis. The type of racist bully boys such as the EDL are all very brave and threatening when in groups but in my experience not so when on their own. It's very sad that Saints appear to have some of thier followers as this club has no history or reputation of racist supporters. The EDL are not racist Andrew, they are patriotic. There is a difference, although those of your ilk hate anyone who is proud to be British. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Those nasty racist parish councillors have voted to fly the union flag all year round. A victory against people like Andy Northern Saints and the black person who complained that we dare to fly our flag. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-15660275 http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?z5472421933&z=1250248740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 The EDL are not racist Andrew, they are patriotic. There is a difference, although those of your ilk hate anyone who is proud to be British. I am very proud to be British, the EDA are not patriots they are self serving ignorant racist imbeciles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 The EDL are not racist Andrew, they are patriotic. There is a difference, although those of your ilk hate anyone who is proud to be British. There's nothing wrong with patriotism, but it is very often used as a shield for what is essentially disgusting racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 There is no doubt that the EDl and BNP have a large amount of racist thugs as supporters, that doesn't mean there is not a valid cause behind the movements though. The rights of british people in areas swamped with immigrants should be protected, they shouldn't be expected to have other cultures imposed on them in their own country and expect to say nothing and just put up with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 There is no doubt that the EDl and BNP have a large amount of racist thugs as supporters, that doesn't mean there is not a valid cause behind the movements though. The rights of british people in areas swamped with immigrants should be protected, they shouldn't be expected to have other cultures imposed on them in their own country and expect to say nothing and just put up with it. You're right I've lost count the number of times I've been forced to eat Halal meat and go to Mosque on a Friday. Apparently Christmas has been cancelled by my local council but we've been told we can celebrate Divali. Also I'm looking at schools for my son to attend from next Autumn and can't find any that do lessons in English. It's madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 The EDL are not racist Andrew, they are patriotic. There is a difference, although those of your ilk hate anyone who is proud to be British.of course they are patriotic to the likes of you just like the nf and bnp were, when the hijacked the union jack for their facist ideology which our great britsh soldiers fought against and likes of those facist scum which you called patriots murdered the likes of stephen lawrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 of course they are patriotic to the likes of you just like the nf and bnp were, when the hijacked the union jack for their facist ideology which our great britsh soldiers fought against and likes of those facist scum which you called patriots murdered the likes of stephen lawrence. brilliant use of association there, so someone who believes in standing up to the group "islam for uk" who planned to disrupt remembrance day or whatever name they go under now is the same as the murderers who killed stephen lawrence , nice one Solent !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Reading the posts on here it appears that if you are against racism and extreme right wing groups such as the EDL then you must be from a white middle class background and have never lived in a council estate???? Now i would expect that type of rubbish from our resident racist and white power crazy poster dunce but it is a bit sad so many others have joined in with the racism on here. How many of you have been victims of racist attacks? discriminations, being stopped by police driving? had your home petrol bombed? been verbally abused in public when out non white partners/friends/family? Anyone who thinks the EDL is not racist really is beyond help. Yet another one that COMPLETELY misses the point of this thread. Unfortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Yet another one that COMPLETELY misses the point of this thread. Unfortunate. You are SO tragically misunderstood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 I'm talking about a free market within the UK, not allowing even more foreigners in than Labour swamped us with. There aren't enough jobs for our own people FFS. Good thing the Tories have strengthened the borders then eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 15 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Good thing the Tories have strengthened the borders then eh? I agree. If it was down to me we'd leave the EU and brick up the channel tunnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 I agree. If it was down to me we'd leave the EU and brick up the channel tunnel. Should we mine the harbours and install anti aircraft rockets at all the airports while we are at it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronskisaint Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 I agree. If it was down to me we'd leave the EU and brick up the channel tunnel. So...what nationality is your car then Dune...(I know that you know that I know the answer but in the same spirit of fun as your above)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowllyd Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 Rubbish. If a business wants to employ a white male and another white male and another and another that should be for them to decide, not for some idealistic Liberal Elitist. We are losing our competitive edge with all the red tape of the nanny state and that needs to change if we are to rise again as a country. If a business wants to employ a black female, then another black female, then another and then another, should that also be for them to decide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 If a business wants to employ a black female, then another black female, then another and then another, should that also be for them to decide? To be fair plenty of Indian and Chinese restaurants choose their staff based on the colour of their skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 To be fair plenty of Indian and Chinese restaurants choose their staff based on the colour of their skin. That's because a lot of it is family run though... or set up with friends within their community. We're talking about just generally advertised jobs... when there is a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 15 November, 2011 Share Posted 15 November, 2011 brilliant use of association there, so someone who believes in standing up to the group "islam for uk" who planned to disrupt remembrance day or whatever name they go under now is the same as the murderers who killed stephen lawrence , nice one Solent !
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