Transfer Policy

[Papa Shango]

Following on from Artur Boruc's recent comments about being signed against the wishes of Nigel Adkins I've written an article about Saints' transfer policy/philosophy and about the Director of Football type system in general. Give it a read

 

http://thesaintshub.com/saintstransferpolicy.html

[bangkoksaint]

Good article which I enjoyed reading. There is a lot in what you say and in five years we may have other clubs following our example and aspiring to be like us!

[rooney]

Good article which I enjoyed reading. There is a lot in what you say and in five years we may have other clubs following our example and aspiring to be like us!

Agree-very well written too.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

A good read but it leaves one question in my mind. If the manager has little say about what players the club buys why should he be the one sacked when things go pear shaped?

[Pancake]

A good read but it leaves one question in my mind. If the manager has little say about what players the club buys why should he be the one sacked when things go pear shaped?

 

Playing Devil's Advocate FF, the board will "assume" that they have the players they "know" are good and the team aren't winning, then the manager isn't managing/coaching them properly.

[sotonist]

A good read but it leaves one question in my mind. If the manager has little say about what players the club buys why should he be the one sacked when things go pear shaped?

 

For not getting the best out of or perhaps not even using the players made available to him?

 

If we keep signing Mayukas the transfer committee will need looking at as well.

[dronskisaint]

Well researched and thought through article - I enjoyed that thanks.

 

FF - in answer to your question I think it's twofold. One being the continuity expressed in the article...it's not practical to make wholesale changes in personnel if, in the club managements' opinion, things need shaking up and two - refreshing a talented squad is often only going to be achieved by a substantial change in input - and the managerial position change is the only one that can have that impact. Of course the Ferguson/Wenger argument negates that somewhat but they have changed their assistants a number of times over the years...they're also probably the exceptions that prove the rule...there aren't many other PL examples through the years.

[Saint Charlie]

For not getting the best out of or perhaps not even using the players made available to him?

 

If we keep signing Mayukas the transfer committee will need looking at as well.

 

Interesting point. I know from someone who would certainly know first hand, that Adkins was very popular on the training ground at Saints and highly rated but since MP has been in there has been a feeling that he is just a level above NA in everything he does.

[sotonist]

Interesting point. I know from someone who would certainly know first hand, that Adkins was very popular on the training ground at Saints and highly rated but since MP has been in there has been a feeling that he is just a level above NA in everything he does.

 

I was speaking in general, but yes with soem reference to Nigel.

 

Let's face it, he was a lower league footballer and had lower league experience as a physio and coach. He used his natural talent and probably drew on his youth experience at Liverpool to set him above the competition. Premier league was as much a learning experience for him as it was to Rickie. Challenging for europe would be another step above his experience level.

 

On NC's timetable we need a manager who can potentially step up quickly to match the squad we plan to build. It's not just about doing A job. It's about doing THE job assigned.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I think there is little doubt that the club owning playing style and transfer dealings is better than being 'all in' with a Manager, however the hard part isn't determining that it is implementing it.

 

The writing was on the wall for Adkins ever since we got promoted. On that basis you would maybe understand why the club did not favour Adkins input into some things given perhaps they did not see him being around too much longer. It will be interesting to see where we go under Pochettino - and in particular whether a level of trust from the club in his management of the team sees him more involved (or at least having more influence) than Adkins.

[david in sweden]

Following on from Artur Boruc's recent comments about being signed against the wishes of Nigel Adkins I've written an article about Saints' transfer policy/philosophy and about the Director of Football type system in general. Give it a read http://thesaintshub.com/saintstransferpolicy.html

 

 

Nice article Sam....but you have managed to highlight some of the points that seem to upset visitors to this site - in particular.

With 50 years of following Saints behind me I've noticed that the rapid development of Football clubs into " businesses " has been apparant even since the early 1990's.

 

In Ted Bates' day (more like 18 years) as team manager, he identified targets he could lure to the Dell and went begging to the faithful old Board of Directors, who duly dipped into their personal wealth and coughed up the recessary transfer fees. Even after the relegation hiccup of 1974, Lawrie McMenemy could pick his targets from the clan of old England captains - especially after winning the FA Cup in 1976 - and it has to be said, we might even have won the League title on a couple of occasions - had " bigger money " been available from the Board in the early 1980's.

 

It was obvious that we'd struggle when the Premer League (as then) started in 1992, and after pocketing the record fee for selling Shearer - the club started spending money quicker than they could count it.

Rupert Lowe's subsequent rule as Chairman gave us mixed blessings. SMS (of course) ....was no longer just a 20 year old dream, and the need for an Academy was at last taken more seriously, though it was clear he had no conception of the levels of finance needed when (if the story be true )....he told manager Graham Souness he have a transfer budget of £2 million.

 

The passing success of Glenn Hoddle, gave way to a more stable team with the arrival of Gordon Strachan, who adopted the age-old policy of " importing " some of his former players to stabilise the team (Paul Williams and Paul Telfer), but stumbled somewhat when we saw he had no Plan B (a decision that may well shorten his tenure as Scotland's manager - unless he's learned from the lesson).

 

Stumbling into the 21st century, only to be relegated at the hands of " 'appy 'arry " and his cohorts....SFC gave the title " Manager of the Month " a new, and more dramatic meaning... until the nightmare of summer 2009. Regardless of the mixed feelings about Nicola Cortese, we must admit that although it was Marcus Liebherr's " lunch money " that finally bought the club, it was Nicola Cortese who took the idea to him in the first place and convinced him to invest in the club.

 

Most managers are " football-addicts " who.... either were established players who can't stop playing the game in their mind /or/ players who failed to make the top grade themselves and want to prove they can succeed at coaching a team. I suppose Pardew and Adkins come into the second category....Pochettino is from the first. Not everyone succeeds - or is given enough time, but that is the nature of the game (or should we say business) today. No Chairman worth his salt is going to take the chance of " losing " £90 million media income (through relegation) - unless he has 110% confidence in his manager. No-one can deny that (partly) Pardew, and later Adkins had that " confidence " ..upto a point, but somewhere after last April, Nigel Adkins came unstuck and Cortese decided (perhaps correctly) that NA didn't have the right mindset for a Prem. manager ...only time will tell.

 

But for as long as Messers. Cortese and Reed make the decisions (and sign the cheques) for players THEY think will enhance the squad, it is for the manager to make the best of the talent he has - or else.

IMHO, the (Adkins choices) to buy Forte and Sharp were allowed to pacify NA's desire to use some of his " old and trusted " players - without spending BIG money - until his constant pursuit (and failure) to buy Celtic's Hooper. I doubt if any (of those three) could command a regular spot in any other Prem. side.

 

The really BIG money ...was paid out on " the committee's " chosen players. NA's failure to seek an experienced goalkeeper " of international standard " last summer was a major mistake - due mainly to his support and loyalty to Kelvin Davis - an excellent club-man and all-round good guy but who had clearly reached his level of incompetence in the Championship last season.

Other "differences of opinion " may never be fully revealed, but in the future those two back-to-back promotions may be seen to be " the runaway stagecoach " that NA couldn't sufficiently bring under control.

 

In future we will see that few (if any) managers in the Premiership will be able to overule the DOF and the man with the cheque book, and they'll have to learn to live with that.

Edited 25 March, 2013 by david in sweden

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I understand all the answers to my point but do maintain it is a bit rough if Adkins got players foisted on him against his wishes, and say those players don't meet standards (Mayuka perhaps), then it is he who gets the bullet. I am not saying his sacking was wrong, just a manager surely needs to have the uppermost say on who we are to sign as long as the finances meet the approval and sanction of the Chairman. Otherwise it's like telling an artist to paint with some elses brushes or a F1 driver to drive someone elses car.

 

Having said that I do think Adkins made a monumental error approaching the Premiership with just Gazza and Davis as our keepers. For that alone - if it was his decision - he deserved to be replaced.

[Barry Sanchez]

A good read but it leaves one question in my mind. If the manager has little say about what players the club buys why should he be the one sacked when things go pear shaped?

 

Because its a tale of a businessman knowing more than a football man, who signed Mayuka? Forren? Ramirez? and Lee?

[Saint Garrett]

Because its a tale of a businessman knowing more than a football man, who signed Mayuka? Forren? Ramirez? and Lee?

 

Lee was good enough for the push last season, we needed someone better than Barnard and Connolly wasn't going to play every week.

 

Forren...how can you write him off before he's played ?

 

Mayuka has looked half decent when he has played, but agree thats an odd one.

 

Gaston is class.

 

But moaners will moan....

[Barry Sanchez]

Lee was good enough for the push last season, we needed someone better than Barnard and Connolly wasn't going to play every week.

 

Forren...how can you write him off before he's played ?

 

Mayuka has looked half decent when he has played, but agree thats an odd one.

 

Gaston is class.

 

But moaners will moan....

 

I'm sorry but we have 8 games left and we have a signed a defender who is either injured or not fit enough, thats hardly wise is it?

 

Ramirez is class? Is he or do you want him to be? He is good but he simply has not been good enough whilst wearing a Saints shirt this year.

 

Mayuka? If he was good enough he would be in the side thats obvious.

 

Lee? As above.

[Saint Garrett]

You must be the most impatient person to have ever graced the earth. Give them time. Personally, although I think for the money he should have contributed a bit more, all things considered I think Gaston has been a success. I don't think me and you will ever agree though.

[Barry Sanchez]

You must be the most impatient person to have ever graced the earth. Give them time. Personally, although I think for the money he should have contributed a bit more, all things considered I think Gaston has been a success. I don't think me and you will ever agree though.

 

Probably not, whilst you agree we have not got value for money with him you should also admit he has done very little for the average 60mins per game appearances this season.

[Saint Garrett]

Injuries? Personal issues? I think he has done enough, but we need him to push on next season and become more consistent.

[Barry Sanchez]

Injuries? Personal issues? I think he has done enough, but we need him to push on next season and become more consistent.

 

If he is injured he should not be playing, if he has personal issues that again. Buts thats speculation, lets stick to what we know.

[Saint Garrett]

If he is injured he should not be playing, if he has personal issues that again. Buts thats speculation, lets stick to what we know.

 

He hasnt played when he has been injured? But its hardly helped him settle into the side has it? When he has played, more at home than away, he's been pretty good and in some games the soul reason why we've got a result. (Newcastle, Villa, Arsenal at home). Agree he has been anonymous away from home at times, but that will come. He's a good player and probably our most talented player. Give him a chance. He's only young.

[Olallana]

I just dont understand why players are judged the first year on the whole transfer fee?

 

People say we have not got value for 11.8m this year regarding Ramirez.

Ok, so next year he should be judged for costing nothing?

 

 

For me it´s transfer fee split with amount of years on contract.

If he leaves earlier you make the judgement in retrospect depending of transfer fee in minus transfer fee out, split with the years he´s been at the club.

That´s the most fair judgement in what value for money a player is IMO.

[Barry Sanchez]

He hasnt played when he has been injured? But its hardly helped him settle into the side has it? When he has played, more at home than away, he's been pretty good and in some games the soul reason why we've got a result. (Newcastle, Villa, Arsenal at home). Agree he has been anonymous away from home at times, but that will come. He's a good player and probably our most talented player. Give him a chance. He's only young.

 

I have never said he was or is a bad player, I have always maintained he is a luxury player we did not need when we knew we were going to have a relegation battle, an ego signing by Cortese nothing more nothing less.

[BadgerBadger]

I understand all the answers to my point but do maintain it is a bit rough if Adkins got players foisted on him against his wishes, and say those players don't meet standards (Mayuka perhaps), then it is he who gets the bullet. I am not saying his sacking was wrong, just a manager surely needs to have the uppermost say on who we are to sign as long as the finances meet the approval and sanction of the Chairman. Otherwise it's like telling an artist to paint with some elses brushes or a F1 driver to drive someone elses car.

Having said that I do think Adkins made a monumental error approaching the Premiership with just Gazza and Davis as our keepers. For that alone - if it was his decision - he deserved to be replaced.

 

The sign of a good artist and driver is that they can perform with any tools, same can be said about a manager and I think that's what Cortese has been looking for and may have found................

[Matthew Le God]

I have never said he was or is a bad player, I have always maintained he is a luxury player we did not need when we knew we were going to have a relegation battle, an ego signing by Cortese nothing more nothing less.

 

So to be in relegation battle it is best to do without players with quality like Ramirez clearly has? Bizarre logic to that.

 

To be in a relegation fight you have to buy ****ter players? Really? I'm glad you aren't running the club!!!

 

Ramirez helps Saints win games that should lead to them being safe from relegation. He is not an "ego signing" by Cortese, he is a signing of real quality that improves the quality of the team. Without him we'd have less of a chance of opening teams up.

[Saint Garrett]

What a ridiculous thing to say. You're basically saying that we should have brought in players who are good for a relegation fight, and anyone who is better than that, we shouldn't consider. Our transfer committee has obviously tried to build on the talented players we had last season and stick a few more highly rated players in.

 

Lets be fair, if we'd sorted the keeper situation out at the start of the season, we could easily be looking at a top 10 finish this season.

[david in sweden]

I just dont understand why players are judged the first year on the whole transfer fee?

 

People say we have not got value for 11.8m this year regarding Ramirez. Ok, so next year he should be judged for costing nothing?

 

 

Whoa !..careful there Olallana!....you're making TOO much sense for some of the people who read this site.

 

Those who thought Puncheon should have been ditched a year ago...or those who saw Wootton as a better midfielder prospect than Schneiderlin.

 

I recall Chris Marsden being heavily criticised at the start because he was a" journeyman with no roots ", and who didn't have a definite role to play .....he ended up being CM legend.

[Barry Sanchez]

What a ridiculous thing to say. You're basically saying that we should have brought in players who are good for a relegation fight, and anyone who is better than that, we shouldn't consider. Our transfer committee has obviously tried to build on the talented players we had last season and stick a few more highly rated players in.

 

Lets be fair, if we'd sorted the keeper situation out at the start of the season, we could easily be looking at a top 10 finish this season.

 

Yes thats exactly what I am saying, if we are going to struggle as we have then why have a player (who has struggled) who is a technically gifted played but one we dont require, it makes perfect sense hence his inclusion all the time being questioned.

His substitutions are not tactical merely the fact he is out of condition and tiring, that is not good in a battle for relegation is it?

[Barry Sanchez]

So to be in relegation battle it is best to do without players with quality like Ramirez clearly has? Bizarre logic to that.

 

To be in a relegation fight you have to buy ****ter players? Really? I'm glad you aren't running the club!!!

 

Ramirez helps Saints win games that should lead to them being safe from relegation. He is not an "ego signing" by Cortese, he is a signing of real quality that improves the quality of the team. Without him we'd have less of a chance of opening teams up.

 

Square pegs round holes, you have to have the right players in to play the right game, easy really.

[Matthew Le God]

Square pegs round holes, you have to have the right players in to play the right game, easy really.

 

Care to elaborate on that a little?

[benjii]

Yes thats exactly what I am saying, if we are going to struggle as we have then why have a player (who has struggled) who is a technically gifted played but one we dont require, it makes perfect sense hence his inclusion all the time being questioned.

His substitutions are not tactical merely the fact he is out of condition and tiring, that is not good in a battle for relegation is it?

 

Since Shaw, Cork and Boruc have come in to the team we haven't really struggled at all. We've had the odd dodgy result, same as anyone, but in most games we've been at least equal to the opposition and really should have picked up more points.

 

The reason we were struggling was because Fox, Davis, Gazza and a lack of midfield cover were costing us points. Coupled with a tough start and an inexperienced squad and management meant we had a poor quarter season.

 

We have a squad that is good enough to finish mid-table next season, not struggle - that should be obvious.

[Barry Sanchez]

Since Shaw, Cork and Boruc have come in to the team we haven't really struggled at all. We've had the odd dodgy result, same as anyone, but in most games we've been at least equal to the opposition and really should have picked up more points.

 

The reason we were struggling was because Fox, Davis, Gazza and a lack of midfield cover were costing us points. Coupled with a tough start and an inexperienced squad and management meant we had a poor quarter season.

 

We have a squad that is good enough to finish mid-table next season, not struggle - that should be obvious.

 

Hence Davis should start games and not come on, he gives the midfield stability.

[Barry Sanchez]

Care to elaborate on that a little?

 

Yes why play Ramirez away from home for a start when he has proved he does not like it up him, why not play Davis?

[Matthew Le God]

Yes why play Ramirez away from home for a start when he has proved he does not like it up him, why not play Davis?

 

So you think Ramirez should start home games? Weren't you advocating him not being signed?

[Saint Garrett]

Yes why play Ramirez away from home for a start when he has proved he does not like it up him, why not play Davis?

 

Ramirez was very good at Norwich which was our last away game.....

[Barry Sanchez]

So you think Ramirez should start home games? Weren't you advocating him not being signed?

 

No I am advocating a square peg round hole scenario, Ramirez proves that point. Signing him is after the fact.

[Barry Sanchez]

Ramirez was very good at Norwich which was our last away game.....

 

Thats subjective.

[Matthew Le God]

No I am advocating a square peg round hole scenario, Ramirez proves that point. Signing him is after the fact.

 

He is a square peg in a square hole. Saints play a 4-2-3-1 system, Ramirez is a quality creative midfielder, 22 year old, Uruguayan international that is ideal for the number 10 role in such a formation.

 

If we continue to sign players for relegation battles, thats were we'll stay.

Edited 25 March, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[Saint Garrett]

I can't believe you think we should only go for players who are good in relegation battles. There is generally a reason why they've been in relegation battles, and thats because they're not good enough.

 

Without Ramirez, I think we would be worse off this season, and therefore, IMO, it was a good signing.

[Saint Garrett]

He is a square peg in a square hole. Saints play a 4-2-3-1 system, Ramirez is a quality creative midfielder, 22 year old, Uruguayan international that is ideal for the number 10 role in such a formation.

 

This.

[Chez]

That's subjective.

 

as is "he is a luxury player we did not need when we knew we were going to have a relegation battle, an ego signing by Cortese nothing more nothing less."

[Barry Sanchez]

This.

 

A half arsed attempt at a quality transfer window when we should of spent better on experienced premiership players, or actually look into the European markets properly like say Swansea.

[Saint Garrett]

A half arsed attempt at a quality transfer window when we should of spent better on experienced premiership players, or actually look into the European markets properly like say Swansea.

 

So signing an Eng u21 right back, a 21 yr old Uruguayan full international, Polands no1, Japans CB, Norway CB, Zambian striker who scored at the ACON final, a 23 yr old English forward who scored a lot in the NPC last season, and Northern Irelands captain who has played a lot of games in the prem isn't good enough?

 

I'm sure youd' only be happy if we signed such players as Shaun Derry and Glen Whelan. You'd probably moan if we'd signed Messi as he might not perform in december against Stoke....

[Barry Sanchez]

So signing an Eng u21 right back, a 21 yr old Uruguayan full international, Polands no1, Japans CB, Norway CB, Zambian striker who scored at the ACON final, a 23 yr old English forward who scored a lot in the NPC last season, and Northern Irelands captain who has played a lot of games in the prem isn't good enough?

 

I'm sure youd' only be happy if we signed such players as Shaun Derry and Glen Whelan. You'd probably moan if we'd signed Messi as he might not perform in december against Stoke....

 

If they kept us in the premiership in our first season yes of course whilst we were adjusting, is there an issue with that? Its a huge gamble Cortese has taken, the buys have in large not worked and the players already here have been the consistents.

 

The poster boy has not performed, get over it.

[The9]

Nice article Sam....but you have managed to highlight some of the points that seem to upset visitors to this site - in particular.

With 50 years of following Saints behind me I've noticed that the rapid development of Football clubs into " businesses " has been apparant even since the early 1990's.

 

In Ted Bates' day (more like 18 years) as team manager, he identified targets he could lure to the Dell and went begging to the faithful old Board of Directors, who duly dipped into their personal wealth and coughed up the recessary transfer fees. Even after the relegation hiccup of 1974, Lawrie McMenemy could pick his targets from the clan of old England captains - especially after winning the FA Cup in 1976 - and it has to be said, we might even have won the League title on a couple of occasions - had " bigger money " been available from the Board in the early 1980's.

 

It was obvious that we'd struggle when the Premer League (as then) started in 1992, and after pocketing the record fee for selling Shearer - the club started spending money quicker than they could count it.

Rupert Lowe's subsequent rule as Chairman gave us mixed blessings. SMS (of course) ....was no longer just a 20 year old dream, and the need for an Academy was at last taken more seriously, though it was clear he had no conception of the levels of finance needed when (if the story be true )....he told manager Graham Souness he have a transfer budget of £2 million.

 

The passing success of Glenn Hoddle, gave way to a more stable team with the arrival of Gordon Strachan, who adopted the age-old policy of " importing " some of his former players to stabilise the team (Paul Williams and Paul Telfer), but stumbled somewhat when we saw he had no Plan B (a decision that may well shorten his tenure as Scotland's manager - unless he's learned from the lesson).

 

Stumbling into the 21st century, only to be relegated at the hands of " 'appy 'arry " and his cohorts....SFC gave the title " Manager of the Month " a new, and more dramatic meaning... until the nightmare of summer 2009. Regardless of the mixed feelings about Nicola Cortese, we must admit that although it was Marcus Liebherr's " lunch money " that finally bought the club, it was Nicola Cortese who took the idea to him in the first place and convinced him to invest in the club.

 

Most managers are " football-addicts " who.... either were established players who can't stop playing the game in their mind /or/ players who failed to make the top grade themselves and want to prove they can succeed at coaching a team. I suppose Pardew and Adkins come into the second category....Pochettino is from the first. Not everyone succeeds - or is given enough time, but that is the nature of the game (or should we say business) today. No Chairman worth his salt is going to take the chance of " losing " £90 million media income (through relegation) - unless he has 110% confidence in his manager. No-one can deny that (partly) Pardew, and later Adkins had that " confidence " ..upto a point, but somewhere after last April, Nigel Adkins came unstuck and Cortese decided (perhaps correctly) that NA didn't have the right mindset for a Prem. manager ...only time will tell.

 

But for as long as Messers. Cortese and Reed make the decisions (and sign the cheques) for players THEY think will enhance the squad, it is for the manager to make the best of the talent he has - or else.

IMHO, the (Adkins choices) to buy Forte and Sharp were allowed to pacify NA's desire to use some of his " old and trusted " players - without spending BIG money - until his constant pursuit (and failure) to buy Celtic's Hooper. I doubt if any (of those three) could command a regular spot in any other Prem. side.

 

The really BIG money ...was paid out on " the committee's " chosen players. NA's failure to seek an experienced goalkeeper " of international standard " last summer was a major mistake - due mainly to his support and loyalty to Kelvin Davis - an excellent club-man and all-round good guy but who had clearly reached his level of incompetence in the Championship last season.

Other "differences of opinion " may never be fully revealed, but in the future those two back-to-back promotions may be seen to be " the runaway stagecoach " that NA couldn't sufficiently bring under control.

 

In future we will see that few (if any) managers in the Premiership will be able to overule the DOF and the man with the cheque book, and they'll have to learn to live with that.

 

Or to some that up in as many words as is needed, football has changed in the last 10 years and managers don't have as much of a role in player recruitment any more.

[Matthew Le God]

If they kept us in the premiership in our first season yes of course whilst we were adjusting, is there an issue with that? Its a huge gamble Cortese has taken, the buys have in large not worked and the players already here have been the consistents.

 

The poster boy has not performed, get over it.

 

Are you aware how tight the league table is and Saints are actually closer to 11th place than the relegation zone. Isn't that good for a newly promoted side and maybe the player purchases this season aren't doing as badly as you make out?

[Barry Sanchez]

Are you aware how tight the league table is and Saints are actually closer to 11th place than the relegation zone. Isn't that good for a newly promoted side and maybe the player purchases this season aren't doing as badly as you make out?

 

Of course I am aware how tight it is, hence me questioning the transfer policy not only now but in fact since last July.

[Barry Sanchez]

Or to some that up in as many words as is needed, football has changed in the last 10 years and managers don't have as much of a role in player recruitment any more.

 

So Wenger, Ferguson, Mourinho and Moyes dont have much of a say who gets bought, news to me that.

[Matthew Le God]

Of course I am aware how tight it is, hence me questioning the transfer policy not only now but in fact since last July.

 

The players we signed last summer have played a key role in getting us closer to 11th place than the relegation zone after 30 Premier League games.

[Saint Garrett]

Of course I am aware how tight it is, hence me questioning the transfer policy not only now but in fact since last July.

 

Questioning it now after 8 mnths is pretty retarded, but questionning it before they've ever played is quite embarrassing on your part.

[Barry Sanchez]

The players we signed last summer have played a key role in getting us closer to 11th place than the relegation zone after 30 Premier League games.

 

Lets not deal with speculation of a possible 11th place as some teams will win and others draw and still climb, lets deal with the facts of where we are and not others.