Michael Gove

[pap]

Pap, you're a good lad, but I think the best tombs on the subject have the topic nailed.

 

I wasn't there, mate. Where do you think I'm getting my info from?

 

Pat Buchanan's book covers the topic. Looking at AJP Taylor's take on it now.

[View From The Top]

I wasn't there, mate. Where do you think I'm getting my info from?

 

Pat Buchanan's book covers the topic. Looking at AJP Taylor's take on it now.

 

AJP Taylor is THE book.

[pap]

AJP Taylor is THE book.

 

Yup. Buchanan quotes him a lot, hence the follow-up interest. Looking at War By Timetable and Origins of the Second World War.

[View From The Top]

Yup. Buchanan quotes him a lot, hence the follow-up interest. Looking at War By Timetable and Origins of the Second World War.

 

Origins of the Second World War is the most important book of the genre, ever.

 

I also recommend Keegan.

[pap]

David Mitchell does Goveadder.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/12/michael-gove-blackadder-first-world-war-david-mitchell

 

[Minty]

David Mitchell does Goveadder.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/12/michael-gove-blackadder-first-world-war-david-mitchell

 

 

My favourite comment underneath:

 

What's the difference between Michael Gove and a plastic surgeon?

 

One tucks features...

[Batman]

Labour think he is that bad they have announced that they will not be reversing any of his work and keeping his reforms

 

Should they win an election

Edited 2 March, 2014 by Batman

[LGTL]

Course they won't, it's all about money. That's why it's so important the teaching unions try to prevent rather than change. In fairness they have already stopped him doing some ridiculous things.

[View From The Top]

Labour think he is that bad they have announced that they will not be reversing any of his work and keeping his reforms

 

Should they win an election

 

Not quite. They've will roll back all the reforms that allow unqualified people to teach.

[View From The Top]

This makes interesting reading.

 

Shows how much effort is already put in by so many staff.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/28/primary-school-teachers-work-60-hour-week

[bridge too far]

This makes interesting reading.

 

Shows how much effort is already put in by so many staff.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/28/primary-school-teachers-work-60-hour-week

 

Something a few of us have already alluded to. My SiL is a Year 1 teacher and is seriously looking for work outside of the profession after 7 years' work. He LOVES teaching but is finding it difficult to reconcile his dedication to the job and the needs of his two young sons. Children at his school would be missing out if he decided to leave.

[pap]

This makes interesting reading.

 

Shows how much effort is already put in by so many staff.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/28/primary-school-teachers-work-60-hour-week

 

Don't doubt it for a second.

 

I program computers. It's an area in which there is a great deal of flux; the specifics of most things I learned 20 years ago are useless today. Like teaching, I accept that there is going to be change as my profession reacts to the world around it. So yep, every six months there's something else to pick up.

 

What I don't have, and teachers do, is a meddlesome f**king government undermining every bit of work I do and telling me, without any practical experience of their own, how I should be doing my job in the future.

 

The specifics of what we teach to our kids will change; teachers are used to that and should have no problem with the concept of lifelong learning. What I don't buy is this constant assertion from incoming governments that all education is sh!t and needs to be radically reformed.

 

Within my field of work, it's the graphic designers I feel get the most sh!t. Code is code; it either works or it doesn't. Everyone feels qualified to speak on what they like or don't like visually, even if they've no skill in design. I can't help wondering whether teaching is similarly afflicted as a profession. Everyone thinks they know what the job entails, everyone reckons they know what a good teacher is and most parents, if they're doing their jobs correctly, are going to be informal teachers themselves.

 

Thing is though, we're not really experts; neither is the government - not that it matters anyway. They usually arrive with their own agenda set and their ears closed. Gove is perhaps the most striking example of this happening.

[Sheaf Saint]

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/14/teachers-life-inside-the-exam-factory?CMP=fb_gu

 

A very lengthy article but it presents a fascinating, and deeply troubling, insight into the way teachers view their profession under Gove's stewardship.

 

I became a daddy for the first time only 3 weeks ago, and it really disturbs me to think about what kind of state our education system will be in by the time my daughter goes to school. Will there actually be any decent teachers left in the profession? At this rate, I seriously doubt it.

[Sheaf Saint]

Ha! This just popped up as a related article on Facebook when I clicked on the link above...

 

http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2014/02/05/michael-gove-pincushion-on-sale-for-25-pounds/

 

Michael Gove pincushion on sale for £25

Yours for £25 - a Voodoo pincushion of the Education Secretary

 

[bridge too far]

Is there no end to the man's loopiness?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/25/10-reasons-gove-to-kill-a-mocking-bird-_n_5388132.html?1401015105

 

[buctootim]

I knew he reminded me of someone.

 

[View From The Top]

My missus, an English teacher in a very tough school, has just gone batsh*t mental. To Kill A Mockingbird is a book that engages and opens minds.

 

Gove is utterly, utterly mental.

[bridge too far]

Posted on FB today:

 

"Dear Mr Gove,

 

I am writing to thank you for teaching me so much about education. I have been a primary school teacher for 14 years and have always worked in challenging, inner city schools with many children who have complex behavioural and emotional needs. According to my performance management, I am an ‘outstanding’ teacher. I feel that over the last few years my skills have diversified considerably.

I am proud to be able to say that each year my pupils’ achievement and attainment have improved. I have become skilled at pinpointing what they need to learn and prioritising their experiences to ensure they succeed in the core subjects. Sacrifices have had to be made but, despite what they would like you to believe, there is not a single pupil who has not wanted to achieve and be successful.

The last few years in particular, my job has become even more varied. As we no longer have any external support and advice to help us, we have learned ‘on the job’ how to be councillors, behaviour specialists, social workers and mental health workers. We use our instincts when dealing with children with complex emotional and behavioural needs. We do everything we can, but you never can tell without the training. Hopefully those children experiencing extreme difficulties will pick up how to become good citizens and be able to live within, and contribute to, the community. I can only hope that they will know how to create a supportive and nurturing environment for their own children to succeed in the future. Maybe they will feel confident and proud of their achievements despite the lack of professional, quality specialists available to support their own complex needs in their formative years.

Until recently, I was not adept at data analysis. I now know that the pupils we are teaching are not simply children, they are numbers, percentages. The hours I have spent analysing data to decide which children need intensive afternoon intervention groups, those who need that extra ‘boost.’ Those children do not take part in the afternoon history, geography, art, science, music, PE or RE lessons as they are struggling with maths, reading and writing. They understand that they must miss out on subjects they are more likely to engage with, feel confident in, so they have the opportunity to achieve the required level in writing, reading and maths. They spend all day, every day struggling. Slowly feeling more and more like a failure, becoming more and more disengaged.

It is amazing that every one of my pupils knows what level they are working at and what level they need to be at the end of the year. Children are so desperate to achieve and to please others that they naturally put themselves under a huge amount of pressure. If they are not working at age related expectations they believe they are not doing well despite the amazing progress they have made. They are in tears. They feel the pressure. They know they are not where they ‘should’ be. They know already, at primary school, that they may not be ‘successful’ in the future. They know that the only subjects worth anything are reading, writing and maths. They know that their options are limited.

A big part of teaching is, and always has been, acting. You draw your audience in; encourage them to take part and to be inspired, challenged and enthusiastic about what they are discovering. There is nothing better than a class full of buzzing pupils, excited about what they are learning, taking ownership of the lesson. This is becoming increasingly hard to achieve when we expect so much from them. There is little time to have fun, to enquire, to be intrigued, to be children. They have too much pressure. They must, “compete with the world’s best.”

Why are we not letting them grow as individuals? Why are we damaging their self-esteem and confidence by trying to make them all fit into the same box? To ensure a successful future for our country we need to give children a broad, balanced curriculum which enables everyone to excel at what they are good at. They need to feel empowered and valued for their individual skills to be able to take risks and push the boundaries to be successful. How is that possible if they have had a restricted education? How will all those talented people who are not necessarily ‘academic’ excel in their different industries if they were not given the opportunity to hone their skills throughout their education? How will this improve our country? What sort of adults will they turn in to? I know I never had those pressures when I was a child.

I handed my notice in last week. I can’t do this to them anymore."

 

This made me very sad

Edited 25 May, 2014 by bridge too far

[Batman]

is there a chance that the new books might be better.?

[The Cat]

is there a chance that the new books might be better.?

 

Depends how you categorise better. For the kids sake I hope they replace them with something like Brighton Rock.

[View From The Top]

is there a chance that the new books might be better.?

 

Looking at what's replacing them, no.

 

People always moaned about lefties imposing their ideology in education but Gove is taking us back to the 50s, based solely on ideology.

[View From The Top]

Depends how you categorise better. For the kids sake I hope they replace them with something like Brighton Rock.

 

Nope. It's all Bronte, Dickens and the like plus the Romantics. Deep joy.

[The Cat]

Nope. It's all Bronte, Dickens and the like plus the Romantics. Deep joy.

 

3 out of the 4. Then they are treated to a modern British novel.

 

I dis A Level English and most of my classmates couldn't stand Shakespeare or Dickens. I never even finished one of his books. Chaucer was alright though.

 

All this will do is turn kids off studying English. Pity.

[Sour Mash]

What exactly has Gove done that is so bad?

[Sheaf Saint]

What exactly has Gove done that is so bad?

 

In a nutshell, he has stripped our education system of all the good progress made in teaching methods over the last few decades in favour of a return to Victorian teaching standards.

 

The fact that he is still in his job after four years, despite overwhelming public opposition and the lowest approval figures for any education secretary ever, is a sick joke.

[Batman]

In a nutshell, he has stripped our education system of all the good progress made in teaching methods over the last few decades in favour of a return to Victorian teaching standards.

 

The fact that he is still in his job after four years, despite overwhelming public opposition and the lowest approval figures for any education secretary ever, is a sick joke.

public are always against change that messes with public services.

look at the hysterics about the police 12 months ago. the 'changes' and cuts to the budgets would have crime out of control.....

its gone down

 

(so the papers tell me)

[View From The Top]

public are always against change that messes with public services.

look at the hysterics about the police 12 months ago. the 'changes' and cuts to the budgets would have crime out of control.....

its gone down

 

(so the papers tell me)

 

I don't know a single professional, including tories, who support Gove. He's ripping up all the progress made in the last 10/15 years in some strange drive to take us back to the 50s.

 

I've met him twice and he's as clueless in person, albeit witty & personable, as he appears.

[Batman]

I don't know a single professional, including tories, who support Gove. He's ripping up all the progress made in the last 10/15 years in some strange drive to take us back to the 50s.

 

I've met him twice and he's as clueless in person, albeit witty & personable, as he appears.

fair enough

just that ANY time change is talked about with public services, so many go mental no matter what (it seems)

[bridge too far]

fair enough

just that ANY time change is talked about with public services, so many go mental no matter what (it seems)

 

But Gove making massive changes to teaching practice, curricula, the very structure of the education system without taking into account the opinions of the practitioners is akin to the Health Secretary changing how operations are carried out and drugs dispensed in the face of opposition of doctors and surgeons!

 

He really is quite bizarre and actually quite dangerous IMO

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I've said this before, possibly on this thread (I'm too lazy to go back and check if I'm honest).

 

The impression I get from Gove is a man who has very fond memories of his time at school, and is trying to give that to children now.

 

I don't know anything about teaching, but those I know unanimously say he is a twonk. I think he is well-meaning, just not very competent.

[Lord Duckhunter]

In a nutshell, he has stripped our education system of all the good progress made in teaching methods over the last few decades in favour of a return to Victorian teaching standards.

 

The fact that he is still in his job after four years, despite overwhelming public opposition and the lowest approval figures for any education secretary ever, is a sick joke.

 

Why with all that "good progress" were we slipping down the internationally recognised league tables? I'm not saying Gove is right or wrong, but if you think that our education was making good progress previously you are either deluded or a vested interest.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/going-backwards-uk-literacy-and-numeracy-standards-slip-down-international-rankings-8979588.html

Edited 28 May, 2014 by Lord Duckhunter

[solentstars]

I've said this before, possibly on this thread (I'm too lazy to go back and check if I'm honest).

 

The impression I get from Gove is a man who has very fond memories of his time at school, and is trying to give that to children now.

 

I don't know anything about teaching, but those I know unanimously say he is a twonk. I think he is well-meaning, just not very competent.

think he means well but i agree,he has romantic views of his time at his generation atschool and i find hes lost in the modern world of education and harks back to a make believe golden age that was never there.

[Sour Mash]

In a nutshell, he has stripped our education system of all the good progress made in teaching methods over the last few decades in favour of a return to Victorian teaching standards.

 

The fact that he is still in his job after four years, despite overwhelming public opposition and the lowest approval figures for any education secretary ever, is a sick joke.

I know a couple of English teachers, what they do sounds nothing like a Victorian education, so not much help I'm afraid.

[Sour Mash]

I don't know a single professional, including tories, who support Gove. He's ripping up all the progress made in the last 10/15 years in some strange drive to take us back to the 50s.

 

I've met him twice and he's as clueless in person, albeit witty & personable, as he appears.

Wat exactly has he ripped up?

 

What significant progress in the standard of English in our students has been seen in the last 10/15 years?

[buctootim]

What significant progress in the standard of English in our students has been seen in the last 10/15 years?

 

That's got more to do with immigration levels than teaching standards. I'd bet that if you compared English born pupils from speaking English at home families then the standards would be at least as high now as 15 years ago.

[shurlock]

Gove is a f**king loon and got a nasty and vindictive streak.

[Sour Mash]

That's got more to do with immigration levels than teaching standards. I'd bet that if you compared English born pupils from speaking English at home families then the standards would be at least as high now as 15 years ago.

So the standards the same as they were 15 years ago, not significantly improved?

[bridge too far]

Wat exactly has he ripped up?

 

What significant progress in the standard of English in our students has been seen in the last 10/15 years?

 

Don't confuse English as in grammar with English as in literature.

 

It's a repeat of his 'we should only teach British history' mantra - like there is no other history or literature in the world. I'm surprised he hasn't banned the teaching of foreign languages too!

 

[Sour Mash]

Don't confuse English as in grammar with English as in literature.

 

It's a repeat of his 'we should only teach British history' mantra - like there is no other history or literature in the world. I'm surprised he hasn't banned the teaching of foreign languages too!

 

I haven't confused them, I've just asked a question, don't know why people hate the bloke, so was asking what has been changed.

[bridge too far]

I think this is the second or third time you've asked the question SMash and you've been answered. Also social and other media are full of it. Don't you read anything outside this forum (or not EVEN this forum since you repeat your question.)

 

The curriculum for English Literature GCSE is the answer.

[Sour Mash]

I think this is the second or third time you've asked the question SMash and you've been answered. Also social and other media are full of it. Don't you read anything outside this forum (or not EVEN this forum since you repeat your question.)

 

The curriculum for English Literature GCSE is the answer.

I haven't been answered, that's why I've asked it a couple of times. Point me in the direction of the answer and I'll happily read it and take it on board.

[bridge too far]

I haven't been answered, that's why I've asked it a couple of times. Point me in the direction of the answer and I'll happily read it and take it on board.

 

In addition to the two links I posted further up this page, here is another one. If you don't read and then understand this, then I give up and, in a cuddly manner, suggest that maybe English comprehension wasn't so hot in your day.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27563466

[Sour Mash]

In addition to the two links I posted further up this page, here is another one. If you don't read and then understand this, then I give up and, in a cuddly manner, suggest that maybe English comprehension wasn't so hot in your day.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27563466

So they have changed some of the literature selection, not a decision I would personally agree with, but not really a big deal or an example of a drop in the standard of education is it.

[bridge too far]

So they have changed some of the literature selection, not a decision I would personally agree with, but not really a big deal or an example of a drop in the standard of education is it.

 

I think the debate is about Michael Gove's complete disregard for the knowledge, experience and opinion of the teaching profession. This is not the first time he's issued a dictat and, as you will see from comments in this thread made by those in the education world, he is regarded with dismay and, sometimes, outright despair.

 

But I think we can all see that his dislike for 'To Kill a Mockingbird' and 'Of Mice and Men' is ideologically driven. That's dangerous. Imagine if we had a neo-fascist or communist government in power - what would our children then be required to read?

 

,

[Sour Mash]

I think the debate is about Michael Gove's complete disregard for the knowledge, experience and opinion of the teaching profession. This is not the first time he's issued a dictat and, as you will see from comments in this thread made by those in the education world, he is regarded with dismay and, sometimes, outright despair.

 

But I think we can all see that his dislike for 'To Kill a Mockingbird' and 'Of Mice and Men' is ideologically driven. That's dangerous. Imagine if we had a neo-fascist or communist government in power - what would our children then be required to read?

 

,

It's not really dangerous is it.

[bridge too far]

It's not really dangerous is it.

 

It sets a dangerous precedent. Secretaries of State shouldn't interfere in 'technical' aspects of their departments. Earlier I said we'd be horrified if the SoS for Health started telling doctors how to remove a brain tumour or the SoS responsible for agriculture suggested a toxic fertiliser be used in future because it might increase yield.

 

His actions are akin to those.

[buctootim]

So the standards the same as they were 15 years ago, not significantly improved?

 

Why would they improve unless the English language has got easier or people have got brighter? Don't confuse improvement in exam results with improvement in standards.

[Sour Mash]

It sets a dangerous precedent. Secretaries of State shouldn't interfere in 'technical' aspects of their departments. Earlier I said we'd be horrified if the SoS for Health started telling doctors how to remove a brain tumour or the SoS responsible for agriculture suggested a toxic fertiliser be used in future because it might increase yield.

 

His actions are akin to those.

No they're not and they're not dangerous.

[Sheaf Saint]

Why with all that "good progress" were we slipping down the internationally recognised league tables? I'm not saying Gove is right or wrong, but if you think that our education was making good progress previously you are either deluded or a vested interest.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/going-backwards-uk-literacy-and-numeracy-standards-slip-down-international-rankings-8979588.html

 

This dependence on league tables is precisely my point. The progress I'm referring to is the recognition that kids are not just statistics; that different kids have different learning needs and require different approaches to their learning. Gove wants to undo all of that in favour of a one-size-fits-all approach, which may well improve the UK's literacy and numeracy statistics, but it will betray a sizeable percentage of school children who will not be given the chance to excel in other areas.

 

The GCSE reforms are a key example. They were introduced in the late 80s in recognition of the fact that an awful lot of intelligent children weren't getting the grades they should because they didn't cope well with exam situations, so a different approach was required - one that graded them on their abilities on long-term projects rather than just how well they could prepare for a stupidly stressful situation that they would never face again in the real world. Gove's reforms have completely undermined this progressive approach, and will leave a lot of children completely disillusioned about their own abilities.

[Sheaf Saint]

It's not really dangerous is it.

 

Any situation where one single government figure can be allowed to impose his own opinions on the entire sector for which his responsible, with the slightest hint of consultation with those who actually know what they are talking about, should be a cause of great concern to us all. If Cameron can allow his education secretary to impose his ideology unchecked on his department, then what is stopping him from doing the same with defence or home affairs?

 

Imagine if Theresa May was allowed to introduce sweeping reforms to the justice system, based on her own opinions and without consultation. The British people simply wouldn't allow that, so why should we accept it when it comes to the education of our children?

 

Gove's ideology is a danger to society, because his simplistic, statistic-based policies will leave an entire generation of kids feeling completely betrayed by an education system that has failed them.