Michael Gove

[Lord Duckhunter]

Isabel Hardman and David Aaronovitch were on the Marr show yesterday, neither are Swivel eyed loons, but both said that Gove is one of the nicest men in politics and was a pleasure to deal with.

[CB Saint]

Most headteachers probably aren't solid-gold c*nts like Gove is though to be fair. Some people deserve to be heckled, and that tw*t is one of them.

 

Oh I think I met a few in my time..

[Verbal]

Isabel Hardman and David Aaronovitch were on the Marr show yesterday, neither are Swivel eyed loons, but both said that Gove is one of the nicest men in politics and was a pleasure to deal with.

 

Friends of Ariel Castro said the same about him, as did many who knew the Tsarnaev brothers. Being 'nice' is not a particularly helpful way of categorising alleged sex abusers, terrorists or Tory politicians - unless you want to argue about what they have in common.

[LGTL]

Gove reminds me of a PG Wodehouse character. Interesting because he is so idiosyncratic and 'different' but you wouldn't entrust him with anything important.

 

...and to think he is in charge of Education, probably the most important office of them all.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Friends of Ariel Castro said the same about him, as did many who knew the Tsarnaev brothers. Being 'nice' is not a particularly helpful way of categorising alleged sex abusers, terrorists or Tory politicians - unless you want to argue about what they have in common.

 

I see swivel eyed loons are not just consigned to the right, or is foaming mouth loons more appropriate?

[Sheaf Saint]

Gove in 'basing policies on flawed and discredited data' shocker...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/utterly-wrong-flawed-academics-deride-league-tables-that-guide-michael-goves-reforms-8720956.html

 

Utterly wrong! Flawed! Academics deride league tables that guide Michael Gove's reforms

Model used to calculate triennial rankings contains 'profound' error, says mathematician

[badgerx16]

Gove in 'basing policies on flawed and discredited data' shocker...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/utterly-wrong-flawed-academics-deride-league-tables-that-guide-michael-goves-reforms-8720956.html

 

"In the 2006 tests half the students were not asked any reading questions but were allocated "plausible" reading scores to help calculate their countries' rankings."

 

So our current education policy is driven by a formula where the data is made up !!!!!!

[Batman]

whether gove is right or wrong, I have no idea

but the current race to the bottom needs to be reversed somehow

[badgerx16]

whether gove is right or wrong, I have no idea

but the current race to the bottom needs to be reversed somehow

 

We need a Government, I don't care what colour, that will stand back and stop interfering - 3 years of no new education dogma, policies, strategies, or experiments. My wife has worked out that you would need to add at least 5 hours to the school week to fully comply with all of the latest mandatory lessons and testing.

[Sheaf Saint]

whether gove is right or wrong, I have no idea

but the current race to the bottom needs to be reversed somehow

 

Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by 'race to the bottom'?

[Batman]

Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by 'race to the bottom'?

 

league tables, dumbing down of courses, examination boards in competition......

[Sheaf Saint]

league tables, dumbing down of courses, examination boards in competition......

 

Maybe it's just me but I fail to see how any of that fits with your description of 'race to the bottom'. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

[Batman]

Maybe it's just me but I fail to see how any of that fits with your description of 'race to the bottom'. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

 

Just did. use the internet, its a powerful tool

[Grey Crab]

whether gove is right or wrong, I have no idea

but the current race to the bottom needs to be reversed somehow

 

Yep. I agree with Batman. It's just not fair that people like him are a result of our terrible education system. At least give the current kids a chance for a future.

[Sheaf Saint]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1492912417/ref=tsm_1_fb_lk

 

Click on the 'look inside' option.

[badgerx16]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1492912417/ref=tsm_1_fb_lk

 

Click on the 'look inside' option.

 

I've just ordered the special offer - the Gove book, the 'Keep calm and pretend it's on the lesson plan' mug, and The Ofsted Murders. That's the first bit of Mrs B's Christmas sorted.

[bridge too far]

And so it goes on!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24803531

[Viking Warrior]

What worries me about all these media stories is the the amount of leaked documents they refer to.

 

Some are done deliberately to test public opinion some are leaked by opposition parties to discredit the government of the day. Surely the government agencies etc etc should have better security on documents.

Who needs snowden when you have the governments own leakapedia agents.

[trousers]

Government ministers: damned when they do a u-turn; damned when they forge ahead with 'plan a'...

[KelvinsRightGlove]

What worries me about all these media stories is the the amount of leaked documents they refer to.

 

Some are done deliberately to test public opinion some are leaked by opposition parties to discredit the government of the day. Surely the government agencies etc etc should have better security on documents.

Who needs snowden when you have the governments own leakapedia agents.

 

Yet apparently, governments are capable of staging terrorist acts and killing their own civilians, without that being leaked.

[badgerx16]

Government ministers: damned when they do a u-turn; damned when they forge ahead with 'plan a'...

 

And in some cases just plain damned incompetent.

[pap]

Yet apparently, governments are capable of staging terrorist acts and killing their own civilians, without that being leaked.

 

...and have been for centuries.

[badgerx16]

Bump.

 

I came across this excerpt from a Parliamentary Education Committee meeting in January 2012 :

 

"Chair: If "good" requires pupil performance to exceed the national average, and if all schools must be good, how is this mathematically possible?

 

Michael Gove: By getting better all the time.

 

Chair: So it is possible, is it?

 

Michael Gove: It is possible to get better all the time.

 

Chair: Were you better at literacy than numeracy, Secretary of State?

 

Michael Gove: I cannot remember."

 

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmeduc/uc1786-i/uc178601.htm

Edited 10 December, 2013 by badgerx16

[Ken Tone]

Bump.

 

I came across this excerpt from a Parliamentary Education Committee meeting in January 2012 :

 

"Chair: If "good" requires pupil performance to exceed the national average, and if all schools must be good, how is this mathematically possible?

 

Michael Gove: By getting better all the time.

 

Chair: So it is possible, is it?

 

Michael Gove: It is possible to get better all the time.

 

Chair: Were you better at literacy than numeracy, Secretary of State?

 

Michael Gove: I cannot remember."

 

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmeduc/uc1786-i/uc178601.htm

 

 

Nice quote. 'Everyone better than average' is the call from a surprising number of people who really ought to listen to what they are saying.

 

I've met Gove a couple of times. He is one of those politicians who says what his audience at the time wants to hear, so is often popular ..... But then he actually does something different anyway.

[Pugwash]

Nice quote. 'Everyone better than average' is the call from a surprising number of people who really ought to listen to what they are saying.

 

I've met Gove a couple of times. He is one of those politicians who says what his audience at the time wants to hear, so is often popular ..... But then he actually does something different anyway.

 

Hmmm. Sounds like the 'average' politician then?

[Sheaf Saint]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nut-say-new-year-survey-is-damning-indictment-against-michael-gove-9034929.html

 

YouGov survey shows 79 per cent of teachers believed the Government's impact on education system was on the whole 'negative'

 

The National Union of Teachers has published an open New Year message to Michael Gove, criticising him for refusing to meet directly with unions in a “damning indictment” against his time as the current Education Secretary.

 

The message warns the Coalition government that they must “totally rethink their policies in 2014” in order to regain the trust of the teaching profession, while highlighting the 72 per cent of teachers who said in a recent survey their morale in the profession has dropped by almost 75 per cent.

 

The survey, conducted by YouGov, also found almost half of the 826 teachers (49 per cent) polled reported pupils struggling to concentrate because of malnutrition or hunger, and 63 per cent arguing a fifth of their work load does not directly benefit children’s learning.

 

In a damning statistic, when asked who teachers would vote for should there be a general election tomorrow, only 12 per cent said they would vote for the Conservative party. Just six per cent would vote for the Liberal Democrats, in contrast to the 43 per cent who said they would vote Labour.

 

Christine Blower, General Secretary of the NUT said: “If David Cameron and Nick Clegg are under any illusions that their education policies are going in the right direction, they need to think again. This survey makes it abundantly clear that both teachers and head teachers do not see their policies as being in the best interests of children or the profession.

 

“The NUT cannot recall a time over its 144 year history when Government policy has been so roundly condemned by the teaching profession. With a general election round the corner, David Cameron and Nick Clegg need to completely change tack if they are to attract the support of teachers and start improving the life chances of our children and young people.”

[badgerx16]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2532923/Michael-Gove-blasts-Blackadder-myths-First-World-War-spread-television-sit-coms-left-wing-academics.html

 

Apparently everything we know about WW1 is a left wing conspiracy.

[bridge too far]

He really is quite bizarre! In fact, I've just signed this petition

 

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/michael-gove-to-teach-for-a-term?bucket&source=facebook-share-button&time=1385073153

 

suggesting he actually teaches for a term. I have mixed feelings about this though - I would hope that, should he ever do this, he doesn't do it at any school attended by my grandchildren. I'd seriously worry about what they might learn from him!

[buctootim]

[ecuk268]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2532923/Michael-Gove-blasts-Blackadder-myths-First-World-War-spread-television-sit-coms-left-wing-academics.html

 

Apparently everything we know about WW1 is a left wing conspiracy.

 

Gove criticizes the portrayal of WW1 in programmes such as Blackadder and the film "Oh What a Lovely War" as left-wing propaganda.

 

The latter was largely based on the book "The Donkeys" written by military historian Alan Clark, the onetime Tory Minister who could in no way be described as left-wing.

[Sheaf Saint]

[TopGun]

Gove is a zealot so he should not be in his position.

[Verbal]

Large swathes of my extended family were killed in WW1, by a combination of Germans and the incompetent recklessness of the so-called officer class. In that, my family are far from unusual - you go back into the genealogies of so many British families and you'll find the same sorry tale of lives snuffed out for the territorial gain of three and a half feet. Gove is adopted - if he's ever heard these stories, they presumably have had no weight because he cannot connect them to his own family history. This, I suspect, is why he has such an appalling tin ear for the collective meaning of WW1, which looms like a distant dark ghost for many people with a sense of their own lineage.

[View From The Top]

Whilst we are Gove bashing let's not forget that the those officers who served in the trenches, usually public school types, also paid the ultimate price in huge numbers.

 

It's the HQ types that deserve the condemnation, not officers in general.

[Halo Stickman]

I’m no pacifist; I recognise some wars have to be fought.

 

And when the slaughter stops, step forward the pontificating pundits, with their million different prejudices, biases and slants to justify the carnage. Whatever they say makes no difference to me; and it sure as hell makes no difference to the slaughtered. All I ask is that the pontificating pundits don’t glorify war, or minimise the wreckage it wreaks on individuals.

 

Yesterday, Michael Gove became the latest pontificating pundit to enlist the Daily Mail as his mouthpiece. Nearly 100 years ago, the jingoistic journalist Jessie Pope and others used the same newspaper to encourage Britain’s youth to enlist, whilst sending white feathers to the less enthusiastic. Those pontificating pundits conducted their campaign – at a cosy safe distance from the killing fields – under the banner, “Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori” (To die for one’s country is a sweet and honourable thing).

 

Wilfred Owen, a man who actually fought and died in the WWI slaughter-house, penned them the following reply:

 

DULCE ET DECORUM EST

 

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,

Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,

Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs

And towards our distant rest began to trudge.

Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots

But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;

Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots

Of gas shells dropping gently behind.

 

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,

Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;

But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,

And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime …

Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,

As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

 

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,

He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

 

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace

Behind the wagon that we flung him in,

And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,

His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;

If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood

Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,

Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud

Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest

To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est

Pro patria mori.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I think what Gove is trying to say is that the history of the first world war is being re-written, neglecting the context and true facts of the time. German aggression was to a large extent responsible for start of the war. There was also a considerable appetite for war amongst all classes in the early years. This was a new industrial type of warfare and it was the stalemate that was responsible for the extraordinary scale of the bloodshed. Don't forget that Churchill was responsible for Gallipoli and that probably was responsible for his black dog. I expect that many in HQ types were a pretty dreadful lot, immune to suffering but that is how they did warfare on both sides at the time.

 

‘GOOD-MORNING; good-morning!’ the General said

When we met him last week on our way to the line.

Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of ’em dead,

And we’re cursing his staff for incompetent swine.

‘He’s a cheery old card,’ grunted Harry to Jack 5

As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack.

 

. . . .

 

But he did for them both by his plan of attack.

[pap]

I think what Gove is trying to say is that the history of the first world war is being re-written, neglecting the context and true facts of the time. German aggression was to a large extent responsible for start of the war. There was also a considerable appetite for war amongst all classes in the early years. This was a new industrial type of warfare and it was the stalemate that was responsible for the extraordinary scale of the bloodshed. Don't forget that Churchill was responsible for Gallipoli and that probably was responsible for his black dog. I expect that many in HQ types were a pretty dreadful lot, immune to suffering but that is how they did warfare on both sides at the time.

 

‘GOOD-MORNING; good-morning!’ the General said

When we met him last week on our way to the line.

Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of ’em dead,

And we’re cursing his staff for incompetent swine.

‘He’s a cheery old card,’ grunted Harry to Jack 5

As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack.

 

. . . .

 

But he did for them both by his plan of attack.

 

What aggression was the Germans involved in prior to the outbreak of war? Both Britain and France had been in more recent conflicts, and could reasonably termed as more aggressive.

 

War with Germany was largely a consequence of British foreign policy, particularly on Europe. At the time, our policy was to oppose the strongest power in Europe, supporting its rival states. Consequently, we wanted nothing to do with Germany or her ambitions. If we'd appeased Wilhelm even half as much as we appeased Hitler, it's debatable as to whether this war would even have gotten off the ground.

[View From The Top]

What aggression was the Germans involved in prior to the outbreak of war? Both Britain and France had been in more recent conflicts, and could reasonably termed as more aggressive.

 

War with Germany was largely a consequence of British foreign policy, particularly on Europe. At the time, our policy was to oppose the strongest power in Europe, supporting its rival states. Consequently, we wanted nothing to do with Germany or her ambitions. If we'd appeased Wilhelm even half as much as we appeased Hitler, it's debatable as to whether this war would even have gotten off the ground.

 

Umm. No.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

What aggression was the Germans involved in prior to the outbreak of war? Both Britain and France had been in more recent conflicts, and could reasonably termed as more aggressive.

 

War with Germany was largely a consequence of British foreign policy, particularly on Europe. At the time, our policy was to oppose the strongest power in Europe, supporting its rival states. Consequently, we wanted nothing to do with Germany or her ambitions. If we'd appeased Wilhelm even half as much as we appeased Hitler, it's debatable as to whether this war would even have gotten off the ground.

 

Then why was the Schlieffen Plan was written in 1905

[badgerx16]

... it's debatable as to whether this war would even have gotten off the ground.

 

The fact that the trigger for the whole thing happened in Sarejevo shows exactly what was brewing ; the Austro-Hungarians were itching to take down Serbia - they assumed that their own alliance with Germany would deter Russia from supporting Serbia WHEN ( not IF ) such a conflict commenced. There were many other supporting factors, including imperialist control of Africa, and France's desire to reverse the loss of territory during the Franco-Prussian war.

As it turned out a Serbian extremist killed a member of the Austrian monarchy, giving Austria the excuse they had been looking for - unfortunately for them Russia stood by her alliance, and consequently Germany did the same. France supported Russia, and the UK followed it's own defensive accord with the French.

 

Appeasing Kaiser Bill would have had very little impact on the inevitable chain of events.

[pap]

The fact that the trigger for the whole thing happened in Sarejevo shows exactly what was brewing ; the Austro-Hungarians were itching to take down Serbia - they assumed that their own alliance with Germany would deter Russia from supporting Serbia WHEN ( not IF ) such a conflict commenced. There were many other supporting factors, including imperialist control of Africa, and France's desire to reverse the loss of territory during the Franco-Prussian war.

As it turned out a Serbian extremist killed a member of the Austrian monarchy, giving Austria the excuse they had been looking for - unfortunately for them Russia stood by her alliance, and consequently Germany did the same. France supported Russia, and the UK followed it's own defensive accord with the French.

 

Appeasing Kaiser Bill would have had very little impact on the inevitable chain of events.

 

Yeah, but the chain of events may not have occurred if the European Great powers had given Wilhelm something, anything that befit Germany's status as a world player.

 

Wilhelm II once inquired of Lord Salisbury where Germany might have a colony that wouldn't be in the way of British Empire.

 

Salisbury's reply? "We don't want you anywhere"

 

Germany was patronised and excluded from the big European clubs before the outbreak of war. Wilhelm himself was an Anglophile, largely on account of his mother. He felt that good relations with the British Empire were essential.

 

We repeatedly closed the door in his face, and the rest, as they say, is history.

[pap]

Then why was the Schlieffen Plan was written in 1905

 

Every country has military plans. Not all of them are implemented. The Schlieffen plan was not the cause of the war. It was simply implemented when war broke out.

[pap]

Umm. No.

 

I've produced another post on this with a bit of qualification. Germany was seeking parity with her neighbours. Plenty of historians have ruminated on how Europe might have looked if such parity had been granted, or even worked toward.

[Whitey Grandad]

Government ministers: damned when they do a u-turn; damned when they forge ahead with 'plan a'...

 

This made me laugh:

 

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Every country has military plans. Not all of them are implemented. The Schlieffen plan was not the cause of the war. It was simply implemented when war broke out.

 

They seem to have done a lot of planning. I would argue that the whole of Europe was a tinderbox but Germany was very much the catalyst.

[pap]

They seem to have done a lot of planning. I would argue that the whole of Europe was a tinderbox but Germany was very much the catalyst.

 

The German problem wasn't solved before each World War, and it's arguable as to whether it is solved today.

 

Wilhelm wanted to send support to the Boers during their conflict with England. He quickly realised that thanks to British naval supremacy, there was no way he would be able to assist them, in the process learning a valuable lesson about the limitations of his country. One of the most provocative decisions he took was to construct the High Fleet; it's stated purpose was to protect North Sea ports, defend against blockades (Germany imported a quarter of its food at that time) and to perpetuate its fledgling colonial efforts.

 

Letter to Chancellor Hohenlohe:-

"Once again, it has become obvious how foolish it was to begin our colonial policy a decade ago without having a fleet. Our trade is locked in a life-and-death struggle with the English, and our press boasts loudly of this every day, but the great merchant marine which plies the oceans of the world under our flag must renounce itself to complete impotence before their 130 cruisers, which we can proudly counter with four."

Germany initially copped all the war guilt for the First World War. If that crude assessment still held today, Gove might be on firmer ground - but we know better. The spark may have gone off in Sarajevo, but war was inevitable; if Germany was a tinderbox, Britain and France's continual attempts to undermine her provided much of the fuel. From Wilhelm's perspective, it must have seemed as if the established Powers were trying to strangle his new nation at the exact point it was trying to attain parity. For the Western Powers, it was their first real crack at the German problem. They didn't do too well.

[Whitey Grandad]

German expansion goes way back before WW1:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dybbøl

[pap]

German expansion goes way back before WW1:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dybbøl

 

Britain's engagements since 1864, the year that happened:-

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Bhutanese_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1868_Expedition_to_Abyssinia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Afghan_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Zulu_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Boer_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Burmese_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Zanzibar_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirah_Campaign

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

 

We were pretty busy ourselves. Germany was an emerging new nation and the old nations pulled the ladder up, ultimately putting them onto a belligerent footing. You can't even say Wilhelm was wrong to build a Grand Fleet. Blockades were a big factor in the end of the war and proved crucial in securing the signature of the Germans at Versailles; the West was starving Germany until they signed.

[View From The Top]

Pap, you're a good lad, but I think the best tombs on the subject have the topic nailed.

[View From The Top]

&, in passing, I'm off again to Ypres, Messines, Wytschaete & Ploegsteert next month. If you ever get the chance to visit, do so.