The Scottish Independence referendum

[pap]

"Completely" as in the whole of the NHS, rather than Westminster being unable to change that.

The Scottish Government have tax raising powers. The Scottish Government set their NHS budget. How much of that funding comes from Westminster may reduce according to reductions made UK wide, but make no mistake, the Scottish Government has total control of the NHS Scotland budget,

 

In theory Westminster could amend the Scotland Bill to withdraw powers, but the possibility of that is minute to say the least. As I say, using fear to further his campaign.

 

Oh aye, but it isn't unjustified. A big part of the Scottish government's funds, therefore a big part of Scotland's NHS budget, comes from Westminster - which seems to be taking a very different approach to health than Scotland, or indeed, what it told the voters it would do. It remains to be seen how the Scotland Act will shake out in practice, but as long as Scotland is reliant on a handout from Westminster, Salmond can justifiably place the NHS as something that might be threatened by continued membership of the Union, only needing to point south to show some practical examples.

 

Given that the Better Together campaign has been almost entirely predicated on fear, I personally don't blame Salmond for taking this shot.

[KingdomCome]

Oh aye, but it isn't unjustified. A big part of the Scottish government's funds, therefore a big part of Scotland's NHS budget, comes from Westminster - which seems to be taking a very different approach to health than Scotland, or indeed, what it told the voters it would do. It remains to be seen how the Scotland Act will shake out in practice, but as long as Scotland is reliant on a handout from Westminster, Salmond can justifiably place the NHS as something that might be threatened by continued membership of the Union, only needing to point south to show some practical examples.

 

Given that the Better Together campaign has been almost entirely predicated on fear, I personally don't blame Salmond for taking this shot.

The possibility of reducing the NHS budget at Westminster to such an extent that it would be impossible for Holyrood to continue NHS Scotland is minute. Relying on a minute possibility as a reason for a given stance is just scare mongering. I can't remember if I said it earlier in the thread but it is akin to a guarantee to have no wild tigers in the streets of Glasgow.

 

The very nature of a "no" stance is negative. Fairly obviously nobody is ever very happy with the current government and that is always the case no matter what colour the house happens to be. You can't please everyone all the time.

 

So if the 'no' campaign tried to take a positive approach, outlining why the current system is good it would very quickly be ripped apart. The only way to argue for 'no' is to critique the yes campaign. This is what is being done but it is inevitably a 'negative' stance. Always trying to poke holes, signposting the pitfalls (as well as asking legitimate questions that remain unanswered). This is fairly reasonably seen as using fear. But there is effectively no other way to argue the 'no' stance.

 

Btw in my last post I meant Scotland Act rather than Bill. Brain fart.

[pap]

The possibility of reducing the NHS budget at Westminster to such an extent that it would be impossible for Holyrood to continue NHS Scotland is minute. Relying on a minute possibility as a reason for a given stance is just scare mongering. I can't remember if I said it earlier in the thread but it is akin to a guarantee to have no wild tigers in the streets of Glasgow.

 

The very nature of a "no" stance is negative. Fairly obviously nobody is ever very happy with the current government and that is always the case no matter what colour the house happens to be. You can't please everyone all the time.

 

So if the 'no' campaign tried to take a positive approach, outlining why the current system is good it would very quickly be ripped apart. The only way to argue for 'no' is to critique the yes campaign. This is what is being done but it is inevitably a 'negative' stance. Always trying to poke holes, signposting the pitfalls (as well as asking legitimate questions that remain unanswered). This is fairly reasonably seen as using fear. But there is effectively no other way to argue the 'no' stance.

 

Btw in my last post I meant Scotland Act rather than Bill. Brain fart.

 

And therein lies the big problem. Why can't Better Together make a better stab of the pro-Union case? I think it's because ultimately, Westminster and by extension England, hasn't done a decent enough job of making Scots feel like they're equals. In fact, we're more likely to be taking the píss out of them on almost every level. You've got the simple-minded people on here who think (and secretly hope) they'll crash and burn, governments back then trying out interesting new taxes north of the border and politicians now effectively telling them they'll never make it on their own, waving a £10 note in their faces.

 

If I were Scottish, I wouldn't be too impressed.

 

Really though, the only reason Better Together is having to go negative is that there are very few recent positives it can draw on that'll help its cause. Sure, it can point to devolution as something Westminster did for the Scots, but do you think that'd help?

[trousers]

Not surprised, trousers. The Conservatives have tried to remove many of them from the Internet

 

Here's a list. Main one is "no top down reorganisation".

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-camerons-top-ten-lies-692469

Whilst I've no reason to disbelieve the Mirror's slant on who said what vs their perception of reality, a more independent analysis of their election pledges would be more useful.

 

That said, election manifestos are a list of aspirations rather than a list promises so technically its incorrect to describe an unfulfilled election aspirations a "lie" (although I appreciate why a left wing red top would choose to describe it thus)

[trousers]

No justification at all. NHS in Scotland is completely devolved and the Scottish Government as is already has tax raising powers to compensate any reduction in funding caused by Westminster reductions.

 

I'm not saying the NHS in England and Wales is completely safe, but the NHS in Scotland is under no threat whatsoever...unless the Scottish Government chooses not to use the power it already has to protect it.

Not forgetting the c.£100m the Scottish government have spent on private treatment for NHS patients. Not bad going for a government that 'pledged' never to go down the private route for NHS treatment in Scotland. More manifesto "lies" perhaps...?

[pap]

Whilst I've no reason to disbelieve the Mirror's slant on who said what vs their perception of reality, a more independent analysis of their election pledges would be more useful.

 

That said, election manifestos are a list of aspirations rather than a list promises so technically its incorrect to describe an unfulfilled election aspirations a "lie" (although I appreciate why a left wing red top would choose to describe it thus)

 

Plenty of broadsheets covering individual aspects. I consider his main pre-election pledge to be a complete fabrication. He only said it because he knew he'd never get returned if he said he was going to dismantle the NHS. Cherished across the political spectrum.

[trousers]

One aspect that appears to be a common theme up here is anyone but Cameron , they want Cameron out of Westminster .

Hence salmond constantly saying labour are in bed with Cameron

Which is somewhat ironic and hypocritical given the SNP's "its not about Salmond" mantra whenever people say they're not voting Yes because they hate or distrust Salmond.....

Edited 27 August, 2014 by trousers

[pap]

More fuel for the "we want 'em gone!" conspiracy theory, bletch?

 

Note: this video has been subtitled by Nationalist wags

 

[CB Saint]

Out of interest, in terms of imports and exports of Scotland and rUK, who exports more to who?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Plenty of broadsheets covering individual aspects. I consider his main pre-election pledge to be a complete fabrication. He only said it because he knew he'd never get returned if he said he was going to dismantle the NHS. Cherished across the political spectrum.

 

*Controversial Opinion*

 

I think the NHS needs to be totally dismantled and started again.

 

I am not for one minute advocating a private system, or a health insurance type system. I am all for an NHS style system, I just think there are major improvements that can be made - and for these to happen a lot of vested interests are going to have to be challenged (I am of course aware that this will make it nigh on impossible to tackle).

 

There seems to be mass hysteria at the mere mention of wanting to make changes to the NHS, surely we should aspire to make the system the best it can be - especially for the amount of public money poured into it (I do not have any problem with public money being used for healthcare, just to clarify). From where I am sat this just leads to inertia and wastage.

 

Simply put, from my short time at the NHS and talking to NHS workers I know (I seem to have a rather above average amount of people linked to the NHS in my life) there are some serious issues. The structure is far too top heavy. It's no secret that there are too many management types, which leads to too much bureaucracy and people attempting to justify their jobs.

 

The NHS is fantastic at many things - emergency care for example is one of them. However, there are some serious areas for improvement - yet this is typically met with hysteria at the slightest mention. Especially if it comes from a Conservative PM/Minister/MP.

 

That said, I'm not dead keen on this govt's reforms of the NHS.

[Polaroid Saint]

I like how Scotland complain the UK is London-centric. Might it have something to do with Greater London having twice as many people as Scotland and contributing nearly three times the aGVA to the UK economy?

 

Or am I just being silly? ?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I like how Scotland complain the UK is London-centric. Might it have something to do with Greater London having twice as many people as Scotland and contributing nearly three times the aGVA to the UK economy?

 

Or am I just being silly?

 

There is an argument that Scottish MP's are overly powerful.

 

The "West Lothian Question" suggests that Sottish MPs can exert undue influence in Parliament, voting on matters and therefore implementing laws that have no impact on their constituents. For example, Scottish MPs can obviously still vote on matters of health and education despite these issues being concerns of the Scottish Parliament. Gordon Brown was a Prime Minister in a country within a country with it's own Parliament, passing laws which didn't affect those that voted for him. It's a bizarre system, that is for sure.

[Polaroid Saint]

There is an argument that Scottish MP's are overly powerful.

 

The "West Lothian Question" suggests that Sottish MPs can exert undue influence in Parliament, voting on matters and therefore implementing laws that have no impact on their constituents. For example, Scottish MPs can obviously still vote on matters of health and education despite these issues being concerns of the Scottish Parliament. Gordon Brown was a Prime Minister in a country within a country with it's own Parliament, passing laws which didn't affect those that voted for him. It's a bizarre system, that is for sure.

Great point.

 

 

In addition (slightly related) the argument that 'Westminster' has been 'bad' for Scotland in recent history completely ignores the disproportionate number of Scots in the UK parliament, both in total and in cabinet positions.

[pap]

I like how Scotland complain the UK is London-centric. Might it have something to do with Greater London having twice as many people as Scotland and contributing nearly three times the aGVA to the UK economy?

 

Or am I just being silly? 

 

The whole country is London-centric, as the political will behind projects like HS2 should illustrate.

 

Whether the rest of country has anything to learn from a prosperous city state with a higher population than all of Ireland is a matter for some debate.

[Special K]

The whole country is London-centric, as the political will behind projects like HS2 should illustrate.

 

Whether the rest of country has anything to learn from a prosperous city state with a higher population than all of Ireland is a matter for some debate.

 

As an aside, I saw an interesting graphic on twitter yesterday which showed that whilst London is the richest place in Northern Europe, 9 out of 10 of the poorest places in Northern Europe were in England, Wales and NI.

 

Ahh, found it - http://metro.co.uk/2014/08/27/uk-is-the-most-financially-unequal-country-in-northern-europe-new-research-reveals-4847533/

 

Unfortunately the country is London-centric with the rest of the "union" left to fall into decline. I can't blame the Scots for wanting to break free, if indeed they do vote that way.

[pap]

As an aside, I saw an interesting graphic on twitter yesterday which showed that whilst London is the richest place in Northern Europe, 9 out of 10 of the poorest places in Northern Europe were in England, Wales and NI.

 

Ahh, found it - http://metro.co.uk/2014/08/27/uk-is-the-most-financially-unequal-country-in-northern-europe-new-research-reveals-4847533/

 

Unfortunately the country is London-centric with the rest of the "union" left to fall into decline. I can't blame the Scots for wanting to break free, if indeed they do vote that way.

 

Yeah, I saw that too. We've got both the richest inhabitants in Europe, but also the poorest. London has just run away with stuff, and I'm really not sure that more London is the answer. We'll spend billions on HS2, but there are places up North which have got terrible connections for the distance. Shortest trip between Manchester and Sheffield is about an hour. That's just over 30 miles.

 

Let London continue to do its financial and biggest city thing, but if we manage to keep our current territorial integrity, serious consideration should be given to moving the capital north. Manchester would be a good shout.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Yeah, I saw that too. We've got both the richest inhabitants in Europe, but also the poorest. London has just run away with stuff, and I'm really not sure that more London is the answer. We'll spend billions on HS2, but there are places up North which have got terrible connections for the distance. Shortest trip between Manchester and Sheffield is about an hour. That's just over 30 miles.

 

Let London continue to do its financial and biggest city thing, but if we manage to keep our current territorial integrity, serious consideration should be given to moving the capital north. Manchester would be a good shout.

 

Isn't Edinburgh a proper millionaire's hotspot? I think I heard something along the lines of it having the highest proportion of millionaires in Europe or something silly like that (this was a few years back, like).

 

Also, many in London aren't dead keen on HS2. I've mentioned on here before how it will go right through my home town (Ruislip) and there's a pretty big campaign down here against it. Many here agree that it is a waste of $$$

[pap]

Isn't Edinburgh a proper millionaire's hotspot? I think I heard something along the lines of it having the highest proportion of millionaires in Europe or something silly like that (this was a few years back, like).

 

Also, many in London aren't dead keen on HS2. I've mentioned on here before how it will go right through my home town (Ruislip) and there's a pretty big campaign down here against it. Many here agree that it is a waste of $$$

 

There are pockets of wealth all over the country. Edinburgh's got a rep for being the classiest place in Scotland, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that a number of bigwigs have set up shop there. Average house price there is 225K. 400K for London. The difference is huge.

[KingdomCome]

*Controversial Opinion*

 

I think the NHS needs to be totally dismantled and started again.

 

I am not for one minute advocating a private system, or a health insurance type system. I am all for an NHS style system, I just think there are major improvements that can be made - and for these to happen a lot of vested interests are going to have to be challenged (I am of course aware that this will make it nigh on impossible to tackle).

 

There seems to be mass hysteria at the mere mention of wanting to make changes to the NHS, surely we should aspire to make the system the best it can be - especially for the amount of public money poured into it (I do not have any problem with public money being used for healthcare, just to clarify). From where I am sat this just leads to inertia and wastage.

 

Simply put, from my short time at the NHS and talking to NHS workers I know (I seem to have a rather above average amount of people linked to the NHS in my life) there are some serious issues. The structure is far too top heavy. It's no secret that there are too many management types, which leads to too much bureaucracy and people attempting to justify their jobs.

 

The NHS is fantastic at many things - emergency care for example is one of them. However, there are some serious areas for improvement - yet this is typically met with hysteria at the slightest mention. Especially if it comes from a Conservative PM/Minister/MP.

 

That said, I'm not dead keen on this govt's reforms of the NHS.

 

My wife works in the NHS, at as high a level she can be without going into management (she wants to stay in a clinical role). And I have to say she and I are also of the opinion that the whole thing needs re-organised. Too much time is spent on managing and massaging figures to make it seem the service is achieving political promises. If some of that time and money was spent on clinical roles, the figures would improve. The problem with this is the hysteria that honest reporting of that data would cause.

[pap]

Luke Wright's take for Better Together.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2014/aug/27/spoken-words-luke-wright-video#start-of-comments

[pap]

Saw this linked on Facebook. Tidy little site for the Yes position.

 

http://theweebluebook.com/index.php

 

The Wee Blue Book.

[Batman]

There are pockets of wealth all over the country. Edinburgh's got a rep for being the classiest place in Scotland, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that a number of bigwigs have set up shop there. Average house price there is 225K. 400K for London. The difference is huge.

 

that is because London is a massive, mega city

 

 

Edited 29 August, 2014 by Batman

[pap]

that is because London is a massive, mega city

 

Nowt to do with all the money and what the market will bear, then?

[Batman]

Nowt to do with all the money and what the market will bear, then?

 

of course but so many people would rather live in London than Edinburgh

I have spent a LOT of time in Scotland (never lived) and Now in my 2nd stint of actually living in London

 

give me London any day over any part of Scotland.

 

if they vote yes, it is going to get extremely messy. Not that I think they will vote yes. They will Vote NO and get more powers.

[Viking Warrior]

Up here there is meant to be political neutrality re the yes or no vote . However that is now blown to pieces . The convenor of the council has now gone on record as fully supporting the yes vote as has the chairman if the local health board .

Both say it is there own personal opinion and nothing to do with their high status in each organisation . How bloody ridiculous . The convenors wife us a staunch SNP and makes salmond and spurgeon Look like angels . The health board chairman is a liberal democratic and is worried about the future of cleggies yellow army if it is a no vote .

[pap]

Shít is getting interesting. Shock poll puts the "yes" camp in the lead.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-yes-vote-takes-shock-lead-in-poll-for-first-time-9716619.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11079797/Poll-puts-Scottish-independence-campaign-ahead-for-first-time.html

 

Scotland the brave?

[Batman]

It seems that way.

The no lot will bring out more heavy weights this week and declare that is Scotland say no, they will get loads more powers and effectively be one step from independence.

 

I still think it will be a no, voting yes on promises made by Salmond is just plain bizarre.

 

It will be like my time as a kid in the 80s. Kinnock was always going to be PM. He never

[pap]

Desperate throw of the dice from Osborne? I suspect "in the tank" all along.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29099431

 

Details on more powers for Scotland (if they say no) to be released within days. Evidence of Tories overestimating themselves, or the final thing they need to get them over the line?

[CB Fry]

Those announcements mean Salmon has pretty much won either way, now.

 

He's battered the No campaign into conceding the kind of "Devo-max" stuff Salmon wanted as a voting option in the referendum in the first place. Although fair to say the No campaign has been woeful and has made it too easy for him.

[Batman]

Desperate throw of the dice from Osborne? I suspect "in the tank" all along.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29099431

 

Details on more powers for Scotland (if they say no) to be released within days. Evidence of Tories overestimating themselves, or the final thing they need to get them over the line?

this was always held back incase it got too close

[Sour Mash]

Those announcements mean Salmon has pretty much won either way, now.

 

He's battered the No campaign into conceding the kind of "Devo-max" stuff Salmon wanted as a voting option in the referendum in the first place. Although fair to say the No campaign has been woeful and has made it too easy for him.

Completely agree. I'd have rather Scotland had voted "No" originally, but now it looks the worst scenario of all - devo-max.

[alpine_saint]

I'd rather see Scotland f**k off than Westminster ceed more power to Edinburgh.

 

It will never be enough to satisfy Salmond. If Westminster budges, he will be even more a local hero and will try again in a few years.

 

Its heart-breaking, but the Union has run its course. I think its time to let Scotland and Ulster go, and Wales needs to make its mind up PDQ....

[Batman]

Completely agree. I'd have rather Scotland had voted "No" originally, but now it looks the worst scenario of all - devo-max.

 

totally agree. we (in England) will pay even more for their 'freebies'

 

also, if those voting YES, surely that means they are voting the SNP to run their country for a very long time as no other party is even in favour in independence, let alone have coherent policies for it.

[SuperMikey]

This is an interesting time for me, because I'm moving to Edinburgh within the next few months regardless of the outcome of the vote - will be fascinating to see what happens from this point. Personally, I would be delighted if Scotland voted Yes to give the country the chance to grow as its own nation with its own principles and ideals. It seems from recent polling that other people are being swayed that way as well...

[Batman]

This is an interesting time for me, because I'm moving to Edinburgh within the next few months regardless of the outcome of the vote - will be fascinating to see what happens from this point. Personally, I would be delighted if Scotland voted Yes to give the country the chance to grow as its own nation with its own principles and ideals. It seems from recent polling that other people are being swayed that way as well...

 

spend a bit of time in scotland, your opinion will change

[SuperMikey]

totally agree. we (in England) will pay even more for their 'freebies'

 

also, if those voting YES, surely that means they are voting the SNP to run their country for a very long time as no other party is even in favour in independence, let alone have coherent policies for it.

 

None of the "main parties" like Labour, Tories etc. There are dozens of political parties being borne out of the recent Independence campaign, I read a great article the other day on some of the movements going on but I forgot where I read it. It seems that while the traditional parties are staunchly in favour of No, there are reactionary groups springing up who could take their place in the new political spectrum.

[Wade Garrett]

I would prefer them to go it alone rather than us throw more money at them in some devo-max deal.

[mcjwills]

If they vote Yes, we as a of England, Wales and Northern Ireland sound insist that they have no vote in parliament of anything other than decisions on Scotland. We should also insist that Scotland has its own currency, we do not want actions in Scotland affecting our fiscal policy.

[aintforever]

I did want them to vote No but after reading about the latest proposed MP pay rise I will be well chuffed if they get cut ties with the c*nts that currently run our country.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29098334

[Batman]

I did want them to vote No but after reading about the latest proposed MP pay rise I will be well chuffed if they get cut ties with the c*nts that currently run our country.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29098334

 

to be honest, I think they get way too little for what they do

which is probably why we have such poor MPs in the first place, when they can earn so much more money doing a great deal less

[aintforever]

to be honest, I think they get way too little for what they do

which is probably why we have such poor MPs in the first place, when they can earn so much more money doing a great deal less

 

Surely an MPs motivation should be to make our country a better place, not to stuff as much cash as they can into their bank accounts?

 

Anyway the same statement could apply to the whole of the public sector - are they not limited to 1%?

[Batman]

Surely an MPs motivation should be to make our country a better place, not to stuff as much cash as they can into their bank accounts?

 

Anyway the same statement could apply to the whole of the public sector - are they not limited to 1%?

 

it is, it should be, but they have to be paid accordingly. no one does anything for free

I would suggest that for the vast majority, if 'stuffing money into their bank accounts' they would steer well clear of being an MP

[OldNick]

Let them go, I still can't see why the Tories want to keep them, if they break away Labour will not get into power for years as they will lose so many Scottish labour. MPs

[aintforever]

it is, it should be, but they have to be paid accordingly. no one does anything for free

I would suggest that for the vast majority, if 'stuffing money into their bank accounts' they would steer well clear of being an MP

 

It's just pure greed, what do you think the average person in Scotland thinks when someone from Westminster describes a £67,000 salary (plus expenses and massive perks) as miserly?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Salmond needs to learn the definition of independence , because what he's proposing sure as hell ain't it.

 

What on earth will Scotland have control of if they follow his model. You can't keep the pound and have control of your fiscal policy, their borders will be controlled by the EU. Their head of state will be an unelected toff from a German family. Their Vat will be subject to EU limits, a large % of their laws decided in Brussells and I would I imagine that for all the Nats protestation , NATO will pretty much run their defence policy.

 

What on earth is the difference between Devo max and their version of "independence " , because I'm struggling to see any . The only difference I can see is they'll not have us paying for their unaffordable nhs and public service freebies

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

This is an interesting time for me, because I'm moving to Edinburgh within the next few months regardless of the outcome of the vote - will be fascinating to see what happens from this point. Personally, I would be delighted if Scotland voted Yes to give the country the chance to grow as its own nation with its own principles and ideals. It seems from recent polling that other people are being swayed that way as well...

 

I love Scotland and desperately hope for a no vote. Assuming you have an English accent you will discover the implications of real prejudice. Don't show your accent after midnight or your teeth will be distributed over the pavement. What is particularly unpalatable, is that in Scotland it is not sociably unacceptable to bash the English. In fact you will be cheered by many.

Edited 7 September, 2014 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[Batman]

It's just pure greed, what do you think the average person in Scotland thinks when someone from Westminster describes a £67,000 salary (plus expenses and massive perks) as miserly?

 

because we live in a society of jealously

you can kiss my ring piece if I would be an MP and all the utter horse shyt they have to put up with for that money

 

a fair few ex colleagues of mine earn more than that for working 6 months a year.

[Batman]

on another note, WGS scotland have been brilliant in Germany

[SuperMikey]

I love Scotland and desperately hope for a no vote. Assuming you have an English accent you will discover the implications of real prejudice. Don't show your accent after midnight or your teeth will be distributed over the pavement. What is particularly unpalatable, is that in Scotland it is not sociably unacceptable to bash the English. In fact you will be cheered by many.

 

It's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other as far as i'm concerned. I've never had any issues either in Scotland or elsewhere when drinking with Scottish people (just spent the weekend in Amsterdam, so been drinking with half the Tartan Army that are in Dortmund right now!). Then again, you do see a lot of loudmouth c*nts on both sides that don't know when to shut up. I have a mate studying in Glasgow that could talk himself into a fight with Mother Teresa and he's yet to be decked on account of being English.

[Batman]

It's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other as far as i'm concerned. I've never had any issues either in Scotland or elsewhere when drinking with Scottish people (just spent the weekend in Amsterdam, so been drinking with half the Tartan Army that are in Dortmund right now!). Then again, you do see a lot of loudmouth c*nts on both sides that don't know when to shut up. I have a mate studying in Glasgow that could talk himself into a fight with Mother Teresa and he's yet to be decked on account of being English.

having spent many months (probably total up to about 2 years) in and around glasgow

that place is easily the most openly bigoted city I have ever been to (and I have been to a lot)