What is wrong with America

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Ok, name a few then. If everyone is doing it then there must be a lot of easy examples to find.

I have read countless articles and listened to countless broadcasts where the journalists/reporters have described Reform UK as “far right” and Robinson’s views as being “far right” but if you are desperate for some names here are two recent ones - Jon Sopel and Emily Maitlis.

Edited Friday at 20:15 by sadoldgit
Typo

[The Kraken]

3 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Woah, I'm definitely not far right, not even close. In fact, I get labelled a lunatic leftie on here. This isn't about me, this is about the hyperbolic language used by yourself and Ralph to describe anyone from the other side of the divide.

Is this still going on?! 🤣

Farmer, your post is absolutely correct.

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, The Kraken said:

Is this still going on?! 🤣

Farmer, your post is absolutely correct.

You’d think it was GB News forum or The Canary on here with Ralph and Soggy.

The last place you’d think it was is a football forum.

[whelk]

What the fuck has all this got to do with America?

[whelk]

I’m sure Ralph will think London is more dangerous than Baltimore or Detroit 

https://news.sky.com/story/metropolitan-police-chief-accuses-trump-of-talking-nonsense-about-london-crime-13482563

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, whelk said:

What the fuck has all this got to do with America?

Tangentially, I suppose Farage has tried to make himself into a 10 cent Trump and echoes husks of MAGA policies eg plastic DOGE and half-fat versions of the racism and ICE. Both are obsessed with immigration.

[Farmer Saint]

25 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I have read countless articles and listened to countless broadcasts where the journalists/reporters have described Reform UK as “far right” and Robinson’s views as being “far right” but if you are desperate for some names here are two recent ones - Jon Sopel and Emily Maitlis.

Cool, but I was hoping for articles.

[Sir Ralph]

11 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I have read countless articles and listened to countless broadcasts where the journalists/reporters have described Reform UK as “far right” and Robinson’s views as being “far right” but if you are desperate for some names here are two recent ones - Jon Sopel and Emily Maitlis.

Emily Maitlis - yes she is really balanced, no agenda whatsoever! Spend the last few years having to defend her 'non-bias' BBC position on various matters. Jon Sopel is left of centre. Again read about their backgrounds before suggesting they are sufficiently balanced to be able to give reasonable views on such matters. Its quite impressive that most posters on here have barely any idea about the background of the people they post about or ask articles for. 

Edited yesterday at 08:01 by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

 

3 hours ago, whelk said:

I’m sure Ralph will think London is more dangerous than Baltimore or Detroit 

https://news.sky.com/story/metropolitan-police-chief-accuses-trump-of-talking-nonsense-about-london-crime-13482563

.

Edited Friday at 23:38 by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

15 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Woah, I'm definitely not far right, not even close. In fact, I get labelled a lunatic leftie on here. This isn't about me, this is about the hyperbolic language used by yourself and Ralph to describe anyone from the other side of the divide.

I dont think you're a lunatic lefite. I think you are somebody who says they have conservative values but have views that are closer to a socialist than a conservative. No conservative or business man I have ever met or worked with has the views you have. My issue with you is that you think you continue to say you have Conservative views but you constantly argue against them. 

Edited yesterday at 08:01 by Sir Ralph

[egg]

8 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

I dont think you're a lunatic lefite. I think you are somebody who says they have conservative values but have views that are closer to a socialist than a conservative. No conservative or business man I have ever met or worked with has the views you have. My issue with you is that you think you continue to say you have Conservative views but you constantly argue against them. 

You don't understand true Conservative values, the meaning of socialism, and the centre ish of the political spectrum.

[Sir Ralph]

27 minutes ago, egg said:

You don't understand true Conservative values, the meaning of socialism, and the centre ish of the political spectrum.

Great statement. I'm looking forward to your explanation of conservatism but somebody who wants to increase taxes for people and expand the state, which is constantly thrown by the relevant poster, is not a conservative. Its probably you that dont understand these terms but enlighten me

Edited yesterday at 08:43 by Sir Ralph

[egg]

10 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Great statement. I'm looking forward to your explanation of conservatism but somebody who wants to increase taxes and expand the statement, which is constantly thrown on here, is not a conservative. Its probably you that doesnt understand these terms but enlighten me

I'm not debating with you mate, it's pointless. I'm just explaining that you're a know it all who doesn't seem to know very much. 

Given what this thread is meant to be about, I'll bow out here, and on topic. All I'll add is that one thing that is wrong with America has found it's way here, and is highlighted by your ignorance. Their divisive left/right politics, with liberal and centrist views being erroneously viewed as leftism is a sad state of affairs. Sadly, people like you swallow that nonsense and our political "debate" is following the same course. 

Anyways, happy Saturday. 

Edited yesterday at 08:40 by egg

[Farmer Saint]

8 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

I dont think you're a lunatic lefite. I think you are somebody who says they have conservative values but have views that are closer to a socialist than a conservative. No conservative or business man I have ever met or worked with has the views you have. My issue with you is that you think you continue to say you have Conservative views but you constantly argue against them. 

I have my own values, and I align them based on manifesto's. I also think that over the last 20 years the country has absolutely gone to shit, and that's due to austerity and Brexit. That's why I argue so much for an increased spending in the public sector, as it is what is best to get this shit hole of a country working for everyone.

"No Conservative or Businessman I have ever met"...so are you saying that all businessmen you have ever met are right of centre? I would suggest stepping in a boardroom once in a while if I were you, as the reality in tech based businesses tends to be VERY different.

[Sir Ralph]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm not debating with you mate, it's pointless. I'm just explaining that you're a know it all who doesn't seem to know very much. 

Given what this thread is meant to be about, I'll bow out here, and on topic. All I'll add is that one thing that is wrong with America has found it's way here, and is highlighted by your ignorance. Their divisive left/right politics, with liberal and centrist views being erroneously viewed as leftism is a sad state of affairs. Sadly, people like you swallow that nonsense and our political "debate" is following the same course. 

Anyways, happy Saturday. 

Thats fine, its obviously me that doesnt understand any of this but have a good day.

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Thats fine, its obviously me that doesnt understand any of this but have a good day.

An epiphany 

[whelk]

9 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Emily Maitlis - yes she is really balanced, no agenda whatsoever! Spend the last few years having to defend her 'non-bias' BBC position on various matters. Jon Sopel is left of centre. Again read about their backgrounds before suggesting they are sufficiently balanced to be able to give reasonable views on such matters. Its quite impressive that most posters on here have barely any idea about the background of the people they post about or ask articles for. 

Regardless of their political leanings I assume you are not questioning their credibility as journalists?

[sadoldgit]

18 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Cool, but I was hoping for articles.

There are plenty of you google are Reform UK a far right party and is Tommy Robinson far right.

https://bylinetimes.com/2024/10/07/why-reform-uk-is-far-right/

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/british-farright-activist-tommy-robinson-to-stand-in-eu-elections

Some examples above.

Edited 23 hours ago by sadoldgit

[sadoldgit]

17 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Emily Maitlis - yes she is really balanced, no agenda whatsoever! Spend the last few years having to defend her 'non-bias' BBC position on various matters. Jon Sopel is left of centre. Again read about their backgrounds before suggesting they are sufficiently balanced to be able to give reasonable views on such matters. Its quite impressive that most posters on here have barely any idea about the background of the people they post about or ask articles for. 

I know about their backgrounds and both are highly respected journalists. Your problem is that you are so biased you think everyone else is. Both of them know and understand a lot more about politics than you ever will. 
You throw around labels but throw your dummy out of the pram when others use labels you don’t like. You support people with questionable values. Own it.

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I know about their backgrounds and both are highly respected journalists. Your problem is that you are so biased you think everyone else is. Both of them know and understand a lot more about politics than you ever will. 
You throw around labels but throw your dummy out of the pram when others use labels you don’t like. You support people with questionable values. Own it.

Hello pot.

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

There are plenty of you google are Reform UK a far right party and is Tommy Robinson far right.

https://bylinetimes.com/2024/10/07/why-reform-uk-is-far-right/

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/news/article/british-farright-activist-tommy-robinson-to-stand-in-eu-elections

Some examples above.

Which of those are by Emily Maitlis/Jon Sopel?

[badgerx16]

Another situation that has been made worse because there aren't enough 'good guys' with guns - mass shooting at Brown University.

[Sir Ralph]

18 hours ago, whelk said:

Regardless of their political leanings I assume you are not questioning their credibility as journalists?

Im saying that I wouldnt use Maitlis in particular in the context of this discussion. She has been accused by those on the centre right of bias more than once. Other journalists yes but not ones accused of bias to then define what is far right. Thats my point.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

11 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I know about their backgrounds and both are highly respected journalists. Your problem is that you are so biased you think everyone else is. Both of them know and understand a lot more about politics than you ever will. 
You throw around labels but throw your dummy out of the pram when others use labels you don’t like. You support people with questionable values. Own it.

 So you would know then that Maitlis is one of the worst examples of a mainstream political commentator to use in this context as she has been caught in the crossfire of allegations of anti Tory bias, being a strong Remainer (whilst at the BBC when she should have been impartial) and left leaning bias. Whilst you say im so biased I can’t see the wood for the trees the below articles prove that other people have this view in relation to Maitlis (and there is plenty more on this topic). Therefore a bad example of a journalist to use for their definition of what is right wing. They do know more about politics than me but in principle it wouldn’t stop them being biased, which is the point being made.

A suggestion, when you start talking aggressively about a subject, be sure to understand it first. Own it.😆

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/emily-maitlis-wants-a-remainer-bbc/#:~:text=There was her infamous Dominic,close to being over it.

https://commentcentral.co.uk/one-rule-for-emily-maitlis-and-another-for-the-rest-of-us

Edited 10 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Sir Ralph]

19 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

I have my own values, and I align them based on manifesto's. I also think that over the last 20 years the country has absolutely gone to shit, and that's due to austerity and Brexit. That's why I argue so much for an increased spending in the public sector, as it is what is best to get this shit hole of a country working for everyone.

"No Conservative or Businessman I have ever met"...so are you saying that all businessmen you have ever met are right of centre? I would suggest stepping in a boardroom once in a while if I were you, as the reality in tech based businesses tends to be VERY different.

Everyone is entitled to their own views and if you think increasing taxes and expanding the state is the way forward, that’s fine. I understand what you are saying but don’t agree with your view as increased day to day state spending has never got a country out of a hole that I know off. However, I think my point is these aren’t conservative views.

im not saying that their voting patterns would all be right of centre (although a good proportion I suspect would). What I am saying is that when it comes to economic policy people I deal with day to day wants pro business policies which reduce obligation / restriction and cost for business and policies which encourage innovation and growth and reward. They never want higher taxes personally or for business and increase in state intervention because it often causes bureaucracy which stifles business. The tend to want less government intervention, other than maybe state intervention for capital projects which improve infrastructure. This includes a range of people including larger corporates, foreign investors, uk investors and SMEs.
 

You and I have had this discussion before so happy to agree to disagree before we start going round in circles

Edited 10 hours ago by Sir Ralph

[Farmer Saint]

5 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Everyone is entitled to their own views and if you think increasing taxes and expanding the state is the way forward, that’s fine. I understand what you are saying but don’t agree with your view as increased day to day state spending has never got a country out of a hole that I know off. However, I think my point is these aren’t conservative views.

im not saying that their voting patterns would all be right of centre (although a good proportion I suspect would). What I am saying is that when it comes to economic policy people I deal with day to day wants pro business policies which reduce obligation / restriction and cost for business and policies which encourage innovation and growth and reward. They never want higher taxes personally or for business and increase in state intervention because it often causes bureaucracy which stifles business. The tend to want less government intervention, other than maybe state intervention for capital projects which improve infrastructure. This includes a range of people including larger corporates, foreign investors, uk investors and SMEs.
 

You and I have had this discussion before so happy to agree to disagree before we start going round in circles

Traditionally I want some of those things you list above though. However, this country is in such a mess that we need to invest in public services at the moment. Years of austerity and then the stupidity of Brexit have caused an even bigger divide between the rich and the poor, and left us utterly floundering. The lack of investment in vital manufacturing and energy industries has left us in a catch 22 situation - we can either try to kick start the economy as the Tories did (and it didn't work) whilst cratering public services, or we can invest in public services whilst using interest rates to try to kick start the economy. We tried to do what you suggested above under the Tories and it was a fucking disaster. Although it's not been great under Labour, we have seen some improvements to both public spending and the economy (slight).

As you say, we're going round in circles again, so best to agree to disagree.

Edited 5 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[sadoldgit]

15 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Which of those are by Emily Maitlis/Jon Sopel?

It was on a broadcast. I didn’t think that you meant them specifically. Here is another article from the Independent that links Robinson with “far right.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/tommy-robinson-supporters-christianity-brand-anti-muslim-b2880952.html

I’m really not sure why we are having this discussion. Robinson, Reform UK and Farage are all very firmly linked with views that are very widely described as being “far right.” I haven’t made it up. The only people who get upset about the term are those people who share those views.

As someone who professes to be a Tory himself, I would assume that you would want there to be a well defined term that disassociated your views from theirs?
 

[badgerx16]

6 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Im saying that I wouldnt use Maitlis in particular in the context of this discussion. She has been accused by those on the centre right of bias more than once. Other journalists yes but not ones accused of bias to then define what is far right. Thats my point.

 

Is she accused of bias becaus she doesn't kiss their arses as much as Kuensberg  ?

[sadoldgit]

6 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

Im saying that I wouldnt use Maitlis in particular in the context of this discussion. She has been accused by those on the centre right of bias more than once. Other journalists yes but not ones accused of bias to then define what is far right. Thats my point.

 

Just because you think that one particular journalist is bias in her use of language doesn’t mean to say it is wrong. You won’t find many people who do not agree that Robinson’s political views tick the “far right” boxes as do many of the people who support Reform U.K. That is why they are seen as being “far right,” not because some “loony lefties” have decided to call them that as a pejorative term. As I said to Farmer, various terms are used to differentiate between various degrees of views between left and right. You yourself define anyone left of centre as a “loony lefty.” That suits your narrative. The term “far right” suits the narrative for those who see the difference between moderate right wingers and more extreme right wingers. It has nothing to do with Emily Maitlis specifically but you zoom in again on something to deflect from something else. It is a classic ploy used by the likes of Trump and Farage. The kind of people whose views you seem to have an affinity with.

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Just because you think that one particular journalist is bias in her use of language doesn’t mean to say it is wrong. You won’t find many people who do not agree that Robinson’s political views tick the “far right” boxes as do many of the people who support Reform U.K. That is why they are seen as being “far right,” not because some “loony lefties” have decided to call them that as a pejorative term. As I said to Farmer, various terms are used to differentiate between various degrees of views between left and right. You yourself define anyone left of centre as a “loony lefty.” That suits your narrative. The term “far right” suits the narrative for those who see the difference between moderate right wingers and more extreme right wingers. It has nothing to do with Emily Maitlis specifically but you zoom in again on something to deflect from something else. It is a classic ploy used by the likes of Trump and Farage. The kind of people whose views you seem to have an affinity with.

You are the boy who called wolf when it comes to far right labelling, you used to apply it to Boris Johnson

[whelk]

Are Italy still in the grip of far right fascists?

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, whelk said:

Are Italy still in the grip of far right fascists?

Yes. So are Germany, France, Britain, and any other country that is not Venezuela or a territory like Gaza.

[Sir Ralph]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

Just because you think that one particular journalist is bias in her use of language doesn’t mean to say it is wrong. You won’t find many people who do not agree that Robinson’s political views tick the “far right” boxes as do many of the people who support Reform U.K. That is why they are seen as being “far right,” not because some “loony lefties” have decided to call them that as a pejorative term. As I said to Farmer, various terms are used to differentiate between various degrees of views between left and right. You yourself define anyone left of centre as a “loony lefty.” That suits your narrative. The term “far right” suits the narrative for those who see the difference between moderate right wingers and more extreme right wingers. It has nothing to do with Emily Maitlis specifically but you zoom in again on something to deflect from something else. It is a classic ploy used by the likes of Trump and Farage. The kind of people whose views you seem to have an affinity with.

Well that’s wrong. I explained what I believed was far left (or looney left as you call it) and it isn’t close to the way you have defined it. My definition of far left is much narrower than your definition of far right.

You don’t know what you are talking about and are trying to drag me into your broad definitions by misquoting me on what I define as far left.

Also it’s not me that think Maitlis has been biased, there are a number of different groups and media outlets that have accused her of this. Please get your facts right next time. 
 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Sir Ralph